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Sin Sod – What You Should Pay to Marry Your Thai Girlfriend

Not too long ago, a forum update email dropped into my inbox from one of the major Thai forums. The leading title thread was regarding Sin Sod, sometimes written Sin Sot, and read: “Huge Dowry Demanded After Short Relationship With Thai Woman”.

The story was of a guy that had met a 42 year old woman online and, after a month of dating, she was asking for 500,000 Baht for marriage.

While the advice in the forum was sound, i.e., he should seriously consider his position because it smacks of extortion, a heated debate ensued regarding Sin Sod, which is the money paid to a Thai woman’s parents by the groom during the marriage ceremony.

I was shocked at just how misunderstood this subject is by those not from Thailand, many of whom have lived in Thailand for a long time. Sin Sod is a huge part of Thai culture and has been for centuries, so to brush it off as “designed to scam foreigners”, or “bull****” is just ignorant.

So, using my own knowledge and experience, and with the help of three of my good Thai friends, I decided to write this guide to Sin Sod.

sin sod thai dowry

 

Sin Sod – The Big Debate

You will find a huge amount of misleading information online regarding Sin Sod, and conflicting experiences can be found plastered all over forums and blogs. So, when a foreigner wants to marry his Thai girlfriend and the inevitable subject of Sin Sod arises, it is no surprise that he becomes confused over what he should be paying and why he is expected to pay it.

Part of the problem is that Thai women often don’t explain the concept of Sin Sod very well, which isn’t at all surprising, considering that for them it’s a standard tradition and an age-old part of Thai culture.

They just get on with it. It's normal; they've seen it one hundred times at weddings throughout their youth. And like traditions the world over, some people simply participate and follow along without really understanding the history.

Fortunately, I am lucky enough to have a cross-section of Thai friends from varying backgrounds, and being the nosey parker I am, I have endeavoured to collect as much information as possible regarding this tradition.

Of course, if we want to know the truth about Sin Sod, the best people to ask are Thai people themselves. Yet like many Thai customs, I find that foreigners have a gross misconception of what Sin Sod is all about, inherited largely from other misinformed foreigners.

Before I begin, I am not by any means saying that the information in this post is entirely definitive or one hundred percent historically factual. However, what I can say is that the information is the experience of a cross-section of Thai people, all of whom are university educated, have experienced many Thai weddings and are well-versed in their own culture.

What Sin Sod Is Not

Firstly, let’s get one thing straight: Sin Sod is not a dowry. You are not buying a woman or approaching her family to buy her. The Western-centric viewpoint that Sin Sod equates to the purchasing of a Thai bride is completely incorrect.

To fully understand the tradition, you need to put the word “dowry” out of your mind, not least because any suggestion to your future in-laws of purchasing their daughter will be very offensive.

What Is Sin Sod?

There are generally three reasons for the payment of Sin Sod; they are as follows:

1. Traditionally, the eldest unmarried daughter takes care of her parents until she gets married, and therefore the Sin Sod in some respects replaces that income for the parents. As you might know, it is common for the average Thai woman to send a portion of her salary to her parents each month.

After marriage this usually stops, so, as you can imagine, for parents with no pension plan and little savings, the Sin Sod is a much needed payday. Now you can see why richer families don’t usually accept this payment or expect it, quite simply because they don’t need it.

2. Once a woman has been married, and/or has kids, the structure of Thai society makes it very hard for her to find a man of decent stature. Therefore, the Sin Sod acts as a sort of insurance in the event that the husband leaves her and doesn't offer post separation financial support. The bottom line is, women don't walk away with half of everything like they do in some Western countries.

If a woman finds herself back living with her parents as a single mother, the Sin Sod insures that there will be some money/land in the family to support the family. Thai society also dictates that the older a Thai woman gets the harder it becomes for her to find a job, let alone a well-paid one. So again, should she find herself alone in the future, at least the family will have some money put by for some inevitably rainy years ahead.

As you can see, marriage is actually somewhat of a risk for a young woman.

3. Where poorer families are concerned, Sin Sod is a repayment for the money invested in their daughter. Many families sell land, borrow money and generally go without to put their kids through university, or in some cases to simply put food on the table. The Sin Sod is essentially a repayment for that investment. The amount paid for Sin Sod could be considered relative to the sacrificial cost of bringing up the child – thus the reason it is often referred to as payment for the “mother's milk”.

6. Age is a contentious and quite horrible issue when it comes to Sin Sod. I mean, when ex childhood superstar singer Tata Young, at almost 40 years old married Prame, the son of the FairTex boxing brand owner, she commanded 100 million Baht.

But for a 40-year-old woman from a poor, rural family and a few kids in tow, it's unlikely that more than 200,000 Baht would be on offer.

That said, the type of guys such a woman would have access to wouldn't be able to afford more than that anyway. But who knows, occasionally a rich man does fall for a poorer woman in good old classist Thailand, and to show his wealth he would no doubt slap down a hefty sin sod.

Age comes fairly low down on the list, and Sin Sod is generally decided by status, family wealth, family name and accomplishment/education of the female in question.

Who Pays Sin Sod?

Any man marrying a Thai woman is expected to pay Sin Sod. The price is usually agreed between the two families, yet where a foreigner is concerned and his parents aren't present, the duty falls on him to ask the family how much they expect.

Who Doesn’t Pay Sin Sod?

In the modern day, many families don’t expect Sin Sod, and many will tell the boyfriend that they don’t want any money. However, it is very rare that money isn’t shown at the wedding, albeit that it is returned in full afterwards.

*It should be noted that to expect the money back or to ask for it back is unacceptable. One will be offered it back if that is to be the case. Also note that you may not be required to pay Sin Sod if the woman you are marrying has been married before. See the section below for more details.

How Much Should I Be Paying For Sin Sod?

Historically this has (generally) depended on six factors, as listed and discussed below:

  1. Family Name
  2. Education
  3. Prior Marital Status
  4. Dependants
  5. Job
  6. Age

1. If your girlfriend is from a well-to-do family, you could be looking at a fair lump sum. However, in this situation the money will most likely be for show and returned to you after the wedding.

2. If your girlfriend is university educated or beyond, then it is likely that you will be looking at a minimum of 300,000 Baht. This is a low-moderate amount by modern-day Thai standards. For example, a friend at my girlfriend’s work is soon to marry a Thai lady of a high school level education and he is paying 200,000 Baht. His salary is approximately 25,000 per month.

3. If your girlfriend has been married before, then you should pay less. You might argue – on grounds of tradition – that you shouldn’t be paying at all. However, as a respectful gesture, and to show your respect, you should offer something.

Remember that marriage is intended to happen once in Thai culture, and therefore importance is emphasized on marrying for the first time. Unlike second and third marriages in the west, which may be seen as equally as important and “true love” matches, in Thailand they are not that much of a big deal. Celebrity second and third marriages are the exception to this rule.

4. If your girlfriend has kids, tradition dictates that you should pay less. This stems from the age-old thinking that she is tainted in some way, already given to another man, so to speak. You will become responsible for another man’s seed, and for that you shouldn’t be paying for the privilege. (Not my words, I might add)

5. In terms of a woman's employment, it's hierarchical and usually correlates with education and earnings. For example, you'd pay/show more to marry a banker than a cleaner.

My Girlfriend is Asking for Too Much!

Many foreigners find themselves in this position, and it isn’t necessarily that your girlfriend is trying to con you, more so that she is trying to secure higher face for her family, and in some cases to elevate her family's wealth.

Face is everything in Thai society. To marry a foreigner with a Sin Sod of less than 200,000 Baht, would be quite a loss of face, not just for her but also for you.

The fact that she is marrying a foreigner will mean tongues wagging in the village, so when you say, “What! No way! I am not paying to marry you”, or you announce a payment less than what an average Thai guy earning 10-15k a month would pay, you get branded a “Farang kee-nock” (literally translated as bird shit foreigner, but refers to a poor, lower class foreigner), or “Keniiow” (stingy).

The folks in the village will have a good laugh, “Why is she marrying a foreigner when he can’t afford to pay anymore than one of us folk”. Yes, unfortunately most Thais believe, as many westerners do, that Thai women only marry foreigners for financial security, unless of course the Thai woman is richer or as wealthy as the foreigner.

Anyway; the point here is not to take your girlfriend’s word for it,because the tradition is that you are supposed to ask the mother and father the amount they want. It is not for the woman to tell the man what she wants. So arrange to meet with the parents and politely ask them what they expect.

They will probably say one of two things:

1. “Oh no, mai pen rai. We don’t want anything”.

2. “It's up to you”.

The first answer doesn’t mean you say, “Okay, great”, and go and buy a new car instead. By answering in this way they are exercising their “grengjai”. They are being polite. What they actually mean is, “Tell us what you WANT to pay, and you will be able to tell by our body language whether we think it’s okay or not”. So basically you need to make out you really want to pay. As you can see, this all falls in nicely with the non-confrontational Thai style.

The second answer means, “What do you want to pay… but don’t insult me”!

*It should be noted that some families might genuinely want nothing at all.

I Hate This Talk Of Money – It All Seems So Shallow

Yes, and for the most part, it is. Sin Sod is largely about face. “Look at my daughter, she went to university and married a good man with a good job”. Or even, “Look at my daughter, she didn’t go to university, but she is so beautiful and hardworking that she married a lovely rich foreign guy”.

As a foreigner, you may feel like you are buying your girlfriend and have become a victim of the old “Thailand ATM” syndrome. And depending on the circumstances, that could be the case. But if you're in a secure, genuine relationship, you need to forget what the misinformed barstool gossips say and consider your girlfriend and the culture, and yes, she too needs to consider your wallet.

Like it or not, Sin Sod is a big part of Thai culture, and, as soon as a Thai woman announces marriage, the big question on everyone's lips is, “How much Sin Sod“.

Why? Because Sin Sod is a reflection of her, you, her family and your family.  A Thai woman lives to make her family proud, to show the other villagers that they are a good family, that they are to be respected, and that they are on the up, as it were.

But I Am Compromising My Western Marriage Traditions!

I hear you. For example I come from a culture where the woman’s father is supposed to pay all the wedding costs. It’s more a 50-50 thing in the modern day. But think about it like this: Your girlfriend has probably already sacrificed many of her cultural traditions to accommodate you in her life. Living with you and sleeping with you before marriage are two of those sacrifices.

Without you knowing it, she will have been the talk of her village for living with you without being married – this reflects badly on her family. Don’t forget either that you chose her as your girlfriend, and with all due respect, before getting involved with a woman from another culture, you really should understand the culture first.

On an emotional level, you need to consider that just like every Western girl dreams of a white wedding to make her Daddy proud, the majority of Thai women grow up dreaming of marrying in their home town and making their parents proud with a respectable Sin Sod, and in turn elevating the family face.

The way I see it is this: An average wedding in the UK costs 20k, so if you pay 4-6k to marry your Thai girlfriend in a village ceremony that costs no more than 1-2k, you still save a whopping 12k!

That said, in the UK you get gifts and money from your girlfriend’s family, so that offsets some of the cost. Truth is, you aren’t likely to get a bean here unless you marry into a wealthy family, but then setting up home here is cheaper, as is taking care of a woman post-marriage.

Feel free to pitch in with your experience. It would be really useful to know what married guys paid, or didn’t pay, and how the process was handled.

I would like to say a big thanks to Marisa, Noynar and Noi for contributing their cultural knowledge and helping me write this piece.

 

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  1. Rob says

    My friend is 54 I am 67 she was sent from her village to work in a Bangkok factory at the age of 11 so her younger sister could be educated, she lived in a girls dormitory. She married had 2 sons then her husband sent her back to Bangkok to work. He then took up with a younger woman and divorced her, leaving her with the children who are now young men in their 30's. She cannot read or write and is devout in her faith. I know she has worked in a massage parlour and suspect she has worked as a lady of negotiable virtue in the past (which doesn't matter at all to me). She still works in a bar (her lack of literacy is not in her favour) and speaks of men not wanting her because she is 'old'. She supports her mother in the traditional sense that you mention. She tells me that most women do not want to work in the sex industry but do so to keep them and their families out of poverty. She lives in one room in a hostel. She speaks of the luxury of having her own home (I presume with her mother) When I first met her she didn't ask for a penny, I was the one who insisted to pay her, knowing a little of bar culture in Pattaya I did not expect her to be out of pocket because of me. I intend to marry her I'm an old fart on a small private UK pension but when I die certain pension benefits will go to her (state pension widows pension is no longer payable to non Nationals) and hopefully help her survive in her old age. I think a Sin Sod is a good way of showing to her family and her village how much I respect and value her for the life she has been forced to lead.
    Reply

    • TheThailandLife says

      Hi Rob,It's an all too familiar story, and reiterates the fact that few women get anywhere near wealthy working in this industry. Some earn good money in their younger years but the cash is often spent frivolously, poorly invested or siphoned off by family members. In many ways a regular job would have brought more happiness. She seems honest about her life and the fact that you're accepting of her having worked as a "lady of the night" means all cards are on the table. If you enjoy each other's company then I hope you find some happiness together. Just be cautious with your money; it's a little Wild West out here.
      Reply

    • TheThailandLife says

      One would assume not, since she isn't Thai. That's the benefit of not marrying a Thai woman in Thailand. Although, she might be smart and insist she wants a full Thai wedding and to appropriate every aspect of the culture. It would be interesting to hear the experience of female foreign nationals who married Thai men.
      Reply

  3. jc says

    I don't know who you talked to about Sin Sod, but having lived in Thailand for years and having talked to my Thai friends, your information is not quite accurate. Sin Sod is more of a display as part of the marriage ceremony, and it is absolutely acceptable to ask for the money back. In fact, this will have been negotiated beforehand - how much shown as a display at the ceremony, and how much actually given. These days very little if any is actually given - that money is used for the new couple to start their life together. And my Thai friends have all agreed that Sin Sod would never be paid by a foreigner - it is a Thai custom.
    Reply

  4. Nrc says

    Great article! Really glad I came across this. I've been asked for approx what you've indicated for a first marriage. The family has been pretty reasonable around negotiations. My partner isn't asking for the bells and whistles. I know about sinsod before the relationship and agree that if you have any intelligence you should know as much you can about a culture first. There are a lot of upsides to Thai culture, (even if they're a bit disorganised). If you get the right family, they will support you. They are great with my boys.
    Reply

  5. Dan says

    Reasonable? 34-year old educated girl from Issan. Married 2 times with 1 child from each marriage. Parents seem self sufficient with work, several properties and farms. She has lived away from home for 5 years. She (not her parents) has “asked” for 1M baht and 10 baht gold. She refuses to let me come to her home and meet her parents unless I come and give 40-50% downpayment. Always asking me to buy her expensive things. Mostly say no and it blows over. Definitely feeling like an ATM here. Other than this, we have an excellent daily relationship. Any words of wisdom?
    Reply

    • James E says

      I think you answered your own question. If she refuses to even let you meet her family that's one red flag. Her focus on gifts and money is a second red flag. Serial marriages (any to another farang?) red flag #3. You "definitely feeling like an ATM" - #4. You don't say your age but if you're much older than she is that could be another. TTL stresses this, but in Thailand you're marrying the family. I didn't meet my partner's (a Thai living in the US, same age as I am) family for over a year. It took a few more years until they warmed up to me. That's the investment you want and need to make up front or else you'll end up just being #3. If she's not willing to start to integrate you into her family with even an introduction, I think you may already be there.
      Reply

      • Dan says

        Thanks James. I think you are right. She has some stories behind her reasons, but at this point I would just be trying to rationalize the situation. I am 57 btw. Her previous marriages were Thai, first a bum, the second died in an accident. She did nearly marry a german man a year ago, brought him to the home and talked to the parents. The entire drill. According to her he needed more time afterwards so she ditched him. Now she doesn’t want to emarass her family again. My gut feeling is he was where I am now, looking at a neverending spending spree. Anyway, would anyone really pay 1M baht and 10 baht gold for a woman as I have described, twice married and two children? Seems from TLL very little or no baht and gold are to be expected. Best...
        Reply

        • TheThailandLife says

          In the broader scheme of things 1MB isn't that much these days, but for a lady in her 30s with two kids and two marriages behind her (one technically) it seems high. But then I hate talking about someone's worth in this way. It's not right. Will the money be returned to you? Or at least partially?The 10 Baht gold is a step too far though. Unless of course you have the money and it's no big deal.Not wanting to embarass her family again is most likely true, since bringing a man (boyfriend) home and then him never coming back again gets the village gossiping and doesn't show a lady in good light (silly, yes, but cultural nonetheless).As I've said before, while we can look at the traditional guidelines for Sin Sod at the end of the day it is up to the parents and the boyfriend's parents to agree what is appropriate, or in the absence of the boyfriend's parents her parents and the boyfriend. It could be argued to them that she has two kids and two previous marriages, but they would most likely say that you are 23 years older than her and therefore the privilege is mostly yours.For me, the whole negotiation around material and social status is just uncomfortable. Call me old fashioned but this marriage thing should be based upon two people wanting to share their lives together because they make each other happy, regardless of material wealth or social status. The reality here, I suspect, is that she wants a "good man" to take care of her and her kids and perhaps her aging parents. I think you have to consider how much of this is about you? What are you set to gain? How valued is your happiness in this arrangement? Will this become a big headache and bottomless money pit? Do you want to spend the next 30 years being the provider?How long have you been together?
          Reply

          • Dan says

            Thanks for the response. Given that she is setting the amounts and not her parents, I don't think I will see any come back but I should at least ask her. Requiring a 50% down payment for the privilege of meeting her parents seems contrary to the spirit of the tradition. I am old fashioned too, western style. I have turned away many Thai ladies over this concept of buying love. I have refused to do it. This relationship started out as her not needing anything but a good man and husband. Unfortunately over time it has morphed into what it is today; a monetary transaction. We are an excellent match in so many ways; all but this one subject. The interesting thing is, I have already said no to paying anything for the honor of marrying her and she has not run away. We will spend two weeks together next month and see what happens from there. Maybe just a nice vacation for her! Ha!
            Reply

            • TheThailandLife says

              Oh, sorry I missed the part about a down payment for meeting her parents. That's insane, and i find it strange because no Thai woman would propose such a thing to a Thai man – which speaks volumes in my opinion. With all due respect I'd be looking for the easiest way out. Maybe companionship will work out here; holidays and such. But I think going down the marriage route might bring a lot of stress to what should be a happy retirement in Thailand.
              Reply

  7. John says

    Just had a thai girl mention this to me hence googling it. Quickly made the comparison of selling her and the family buffalo. All of a sudden she doesn't want to talk about it anymore. Don't marry a thai its all about their face and them wiping their feet on yours
    Reply

    • TheThailandLife says

      When you insult a Thai woman about Sin Sod you're actually insulting her parents, so be careful what you say as it's a very personal issue – though I assume you don't care. Disagree by all means, and if you want no part of it that's up to you.
      Reply

  10. Peter says

    I have a good friend who is to marry a Thai Ladyboy. The ladyboy is the oldest of her siblings. She comes from a very poor family. She has asked my friend to pay 100000 baht in Sin Sod. Does it work same way with a transgender, as she was born as male or?
    Reply

    • TheThailandLife says

      Yes, Sin Sod can apply if the family want it to, because he considers himself a woman / transgendered, and therefore the ceremony will be based around him being the female party in the marriage. This is quite common in Thailand now. Gay men may also have a ceremony where Sin Sod is present.
      Reply

  11. Johnny B says

    I am living in the US and have met a Thai girl here who I am going to marry. She is the youngest daughter but both of her parents have passed on. She has told me that she puts away $300.00 per month for her older sister and will give it to her when we return to Thailand. Nothing has come up about me paying anything to her family in any form. I do however fully expect to help out where I can because I do have more wealth than they do. My question is, should I offer anything? I have already asked her older sister for her permit ion to marry. I want to be a stand up guy but I do not want to offer anything and cause any embarrassment either to them or to myself. Should I bring it up and if so with whom since she has no parents. Or should I wait to see if any of them bring it up? Her sister works for the government and her sisters husband is a teacher, I do not know there financial status.
    Reply

    • TheThailandLife says

      I have spoken to a few Thais of late on this very question, because it has been asked a couple of times over the years. Usually the situation is that a cousin or grandmother has raised the daughter because the parents had passed away, in which case the Sin Sod can be due to whoever raised the child. However, in the case where the child was raised by her parents and the parents passed away in her adulthood, the Sin Sod would be given to the daughter. So at the wedding it would be presented as normal, but to the bride. Obviously you would be married, so the money would come back to your family and I would assume end up in a savings account. So really it's just a case of showing the money at the wedding as part of the tradition – and in a way a marker of respect to her parents.I wouldn't mention it. She may not be bothered about it; some more modern-thinking women aren't, and in many cases it is family pressure that pushes for it. However, I'm sure it will be raised at some point, as another family member is bound to ask her "what are you doing about Sin Sod".
      Reply

  12. Dave says

    Let me start by saying this was the best article on Sin Sod I have read. Question: My girlfriend is a 35 y/o hairdresser. She is widowed and has a 14 y/o daughter. When she was married 15 years ago, her husband paid 250,000 in Sin Sod. What would be appropriate for this marriage?
    Reply

    • TheThailandLife says

      Culturally, Sin sod is not necessarily due, since she has been married before. However, very few people abide by that - the rich and famous certainly don't. As you'll read from my answers to others who have asked the same question (use the search term "how much" in the comments search section), it isn't really for me to say, but as a rule of thumb I wouldn't pay more than what she had for her first marriage. But as you'll also read in the comments, the money, or at least part of it, is usually given back these days - depending on the family's situation.
      Reply

      • Franklin Gilbert says

        I have a girlfriend of over a year, I know I am not being “scammed “, and your article helped me so much understand the “saving face”, I also got the “It’s up to you.” The problem is that Thai men SAVE for this, American men (those not TRULY wealthy don’t have tens of thousands of USD laying around. Worse, for me, her brother was just married, and paid 20,000,000.00 BHT. You read that right. So I am expected to pay the same. Twenty..MILLION....BAHT. The family is already prestigious (my guess is the family helped with the dowry). I have met the parents, the brother makes a lot for a Thai insurance company. I am an engineer that makes ~150,000.00USD. Of course, before reading this my (fear induced) response was (not angry, but not loving) curt. And a little pointed. So, after apology, what can I do. I understand this is to show her family I can support her, but HOW can I support her if I give away all my money?!?
        Reply

        • TheThailandLife says

          Man, with all due respect, a sin sod of 20M THB would be reserved for seriously wealthy, upper class families. And this wouldn't be kept by the bride's family; it would be for show, it would be returned, because the family the groom was marrying into would be of equal or higher wealth and wouldn't need the money. In my experience, a family of such wealth would be unlikely to have a son working for an insurance company. He would be a business owner or working for the family business. I'm not saying there is fibbing going on, but I tend to take these stories with a pinch of salt.20 M THB is insane. As you say, how can you enter a marriage without money to support your wife/family? What sort of people would want to strip you of that money prior to marrying their daughter. Prestige or not, I'd rather marry an average, frugal woman who understands the value of marriage and who shares my vision for working together to save money and enjoy it sensibly during a hopefully happy long life.If you really want to marry this lady, offer what you can afford to lose. Take it or leave it. Know your worth. Best of luck.
          Reply

      • Wizard says

        I concur. But white knights will be white knights. I guess they need to bleed to feel good about respecting someone's culture who does not respect yours much if at all.This is a definitive article about how to follow the Thai custom of Sin Sod. However, it is simultaneously the definitive article on how to potentially (probably) lock yourself into misery.
        Reply

        • TheThailandLife says

          But that's clearly not the case, because there are thousands of long-lasting Thai-foreign national marriages where a Sin Sod was present at the wedding. I have never advocated paying a huge Sin Sod; this post is simply to clear up the misconceptions. I've never said I agree with Sin Sod. But the reality is, if you marry a Thai, you will likely encounter this tradition and have to navigate it. I think it is better that foreign nationals are armed with this information so that they don't get extorted or misled by an unscrupulous woman / family, and thus can make an informed decision on how to move forward.Let's say you marry in Thailand and have a 200k THB Sin Sod. Let's say your wedding costs 100k THB. You've still married for about 1/6 of the average price of a wedding in the US.
          Reply

          • Wizard says

            Yes, that is reasonable. It will cost you one way or another, I agree. I am speaking here to the folks who are coming back here with questions about demands for 4-5-20 million sin sod. And then saying she is from a good family. Please. I have known and worked with many Thais from respectable families. They would never ask these amounts unless they feel they could seriously command it from a higher suitor. Or this is an indirect way for them to say they do not want you to marry their daughter. Or, she's really not from a good family as she makes you think she is. She may appear to be because she has several other men providing house, money etc to her and her family.I suggest 5 years with a Thai (or any) woman before agreeing to marrying her. It might not be what she likes. But you, as a man, have to also consider what you need.I was with an upper middle class Thai-Chinese woman for several years. Sin Sod asked was 500,000 max, all of which would be returned. This was almost 15 years ago. But I looked at all of the demands coming from the family, culturally, financially, etc. And I asked myself if I could put up with it long term, since there were no demands from me or my family.I've been married now for 7 years to a beautiful Thai woman who asks me for nothing. Been in relationship for 12 years. She's not an upper middle class Thai. She earns well and takes care of her parents without asking me ever for help. No Sin Sod was asked of me. Parents treat me as their son in-law.5 years will tell you enough about the person you're with and the family you are marrying into.
            Reply

            • Edgar says

              Beautiful reply wizard and absolutely spot on!A year now in Thailand as a writer and filmmaker, here to research this very subject, has me perfectly aligned with your sentiments; tomorrow I go yet again to discuss sin sod with another girls parents!
              Reply

  13. Todd says

    I am dating a 37year old thai women. My question is she sends money to her adult brothers and sisters. Her mother and father have passed she in not the oldest. I feel her siblings can get out and work for them self. I could understand if she was helping older mouther and father. 1st am I wrong? 2nd who do I pay sin sod to? 3rd she is asking for a 1,000.000bat For her family. This seems to high for a poor family. I want to honor and respect her culture and not look cheap. But I do not have 30g sitting around. So what is fair and should I even pay since her mouther and father have passed... Please help
    Reply

    • del says

      Avoid it! Don't be a fool. Forget the whole thing. This whole article paints the sin sod as some kind of assurance for the family and has tones of respectability. Lets face it, if a dowry is offered money given should be personal and private, not for the whole village to gloat over. The appearance of money at wedding and christenings is obscene. At Spanish weddings money is given instead of gifts but it is given discretely in a sealed envelope. Thais are money ,image crazed buffoons ,get out of it while you can before you are robbed of your last baht.
      Reply

      • TheThailandLife says

        With all due respect, the article isn't painting anything. It's an accurate representation of Sin Sod, the tradition. The reality is that if foreign men who want to get involved in relationships with Thai women did their homework on the culture prior to doing so, 99% of issues that come up around this matter could be avoided. It is very rare to have a Thai marriage without sin sod; it is part of the culture. If you don't agree with this tradition and don't want to make any compromise or concession to it whatsoever, then I suggest not dating Thai women, at least not with any intent to take it seriously. I am not saying that I agree with this tradition, but there is a huge misunderstanding about its history, what it is and what it isn't, and how it is applied. On one hand you have the tradition being manipulated by women targeting foreign nationals for marriage, and their complicit family members, and at the other end of the spectrum you have foreign men who are under the impression that this is a fake tradition made up to extort money out of "farang men": both are as repugnant as each other.There are some Thai women who aren't interested in this tradition and see it as completely outdated and redundant, though they are few and far between. My friend was lucky enough to marry one.She is the only Thai national I have come across who has rejected the tradition and got her family to agree with her principles.
        Reply

    • Britt says

      Listen to the Author of this acrticle.That is very unrealistic amount. You are also right about the Brother and Sister should be working. They probably are and may have their own business.Have you met her Family and spent at least a week or so with them. That is one way to learn more.You pay that much in Sin Sod and she we be gone very soon after. How old are you? You said she is 37 in your statement. Believe me she is old enough to understand how to "set you up". Not meaning any disrespect at all.I know because of the growing Expat influence in Thailand that not all the "Ladies" and their families are going by tradition.They have learned how the rest of the world works.300,000 baht would be more than enough for her age and just to "smooth of things" with the "Brother and Sister". But you really are not required to pay them anything.I would tell her you will make a account for her with the 300,000 baht in a bank and she can have after 10 years faithfully being married to you. A kind of "pre-nup".I will let the Author respond. I REALLY think you should listen to them.I am 54 and my Ladies are 26 and 29. We are extremely happy together. Their Families are great. I have not been asked by them for a dime. But I do help them when I have seen the need.I can tell every day by ALL of their actions that they all love me and are happy I am with my Lady. Both Families know about the other.That has never been a problem or issue.
      Reply

  14. Michal says

    I have Thai girlfriend and have same problem. She is 30, well educated, from good family, works in a well-played job and still virgin. But their parents asked for sinsod 4 mil. BAHTS and some gold. It is a huge amount, i don´t know what to do. She is really nice person and we love each other, but with that amount we can have house, start some business, etc...
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    • TheThailandLife says

      That is insane. Who in their right mind would ask someone for that much money. Unless she is a celebrity - a movie or TV star, or from a really well-known family - then this is ridiculous. Even then, that money would be just for show and would be returned, because a well-off family in Thailand doesn't need to take 4 million Baht off of the husband of their daughter.Not that it matters, but how do you know she is a virgin?Anyway, have her parents asked your parents for this amount of money? Your parents are supposed to go to her parents' house and discuss this matter. It is for your parents to decide whether or not this amount is suitable for her family, be it to show the money returning or to give them this money. and is for her parents to decide whether your family is suitable for their daughter to marry into. This tradition is all about two families agreeing that they are well suited.Personally, for me, alarm bills would be ringing and I would be considering doing a disappearing act.
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      • Michal says

        She is from good family, but no celebrity or any famous or super rich. I asked her parents, i am from central Europe and she is in Thailand, so hard to bring my parents. Probably the best way is to refuse their amount? Then we start negotiate or they can cancel entire wedding? Also she told me she was on wedding of her friend and Thai man gave her parents 4,2 mil BAHT and 1 mil in gold. I don´t even have that amount. So probably i will tell my girlfriend that i can accept only/max 1mil BAHT?
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        • TheThailandLife says

          Can you confirm whether or not her parents are planning to keep this money?It doesn't make sense that if there are wealthy family that they want to keep the money. This is not normal. When a girl from a wealthy family marries a guy from a wealthy family, the Sin Sod is generally for show. It's only really poor families that keep money these days. For example, my best female Thai friend has a sister. When her sister got married her and her Thai husband had a Sin Sod of around 300k. Her parents gave this money back to the couple so that they could use it to build a house. They are an average family, not rich but not poor.Ignore all the hearsay about my friend had this and my friend had that. You don't want to enter into these silly materialistic mind games. Tell your girlfriend that you aren't interested in what other people do, and it is not a competition. Marriage is about love and respect and companionship, and part of that is building for the future - your girlfriend should be keen to put your financial security before any desire to show off on her wedding day. Do not put yourself in financial difficulty. Personally, I would speak with your parents and see what they have to say. And then go back to her family and say my parents won't agree to that amount. And say that this is not part of our culture and my parents are not happy about this. However, we understand it is part of your culture, so we are prepared to show a certain amount of money at the wedding on the condition that the money is returned. Or, if you can afford to give a certain amount of money away then do that.
          Reply

    • Jojo says

      Explain to them that this is the Thai way of doing things but you are not a Thai person so if you are say English it is tradition that the brides family provide a Dowry. So one could argue that is is reasonable to cancel out the traditions. Foreigners alway seem to be screwing us.
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      • Rikki Allen says

        Jojo, how unfortunate that you would say something as impolite and faulty as “foreigners always seem to be screwing us.” If you spend any time in the farang community, you will learn about how often innocent and well-meaning foreigners are reduced to financial ruin by Thai women. I offer my own experience as an example.I met a Thai lady online. She was 42 years old, previously married and divorced, with two children by different men. As a western are, of course, none of that mattered to me. We agreed to be boyfriend and girlfriend. After ascertaining that I knew nothing about Sin sod, She advised me that I would need to pay her, not her parents, 2 million baht that was hers to keep. I sold my house in the USA, and bought a house in Thailand for me to live in when I retired. Of course, I hoped to live with her and her son.While we never actually married or lived togather, after we broke up she claimed that the house was actually hers, even though I paid for it, simply because the title document had to be put in her name, since a foreigner cannot own property in Thailand. Call me stupid, but I trusted her when she told me that if we ever broke up we would sell the house and I will get all my money back.In a legal proceeding I brought against her in court, she lied and told the court that her father had bought the house for her, and I had not contributed a single baht towards it. She had members of her family testify under oath that the family had given the father cash, with no paper records, so that he could buy a huge house with many western features for his daughter who already had a house of her own.Fortunately, the court saw through the ruse and ordered her and her family to vacate the house and return it to me as the true owner. But the point of the story remains: it is not always foreigners screwing Thais; it happens just as often, if not more so, the other way around. In this case, an entire family of Thai people conspired to lie under oath to deprive me of what was rightfully mine. I am simply grateful that I know honest Thai people and therefore do not cast aspersions on the culture as a whole. Perhaps you will learn something from this, Jojo.
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        • Britt says

          There are 100s if not 1000s of same and similar stories like you just wrote.That is why everyone here is very untrusting in the "tradition". But as I said people have now learned how the rest of the world works and have become as untrusting as the rest.Not all. As I said my relationship is great and the families and I are very close, loving, and helping each other.
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    • Max says

      Michal, Not to be rude. IF you have been asked this amount as sinsod/sot, would seriously suggest you re-consider what kind of relationship you are getting involved in and what it will be like in future and comparison as to what his/her friend has received during their wedding is not a good indication and starting point. I would seriously consider any relationship whether virgin or not , I will not pay sinsod as it is not my culture, i dont mind taking care of the wedding celebrations and expenses as well as gifts for her family. but that is the limit. Poland.
      Reply

  15. Izzy says

    This is most accurate understanding about Sin Sod. I struggle to explain it to foreigners all the time. Thank you I am an ordinary Thai girl who grow up with multi cultures. To be fair I think to love someone enough and desire to be with the person you love you should always understand the nature of culture and respect where they come from and what they’re made of otherwise just get what you can afford. Wealthy people don’t have a problem spending money on their love ones the only people have problem “paying” is the poor ones no? Choosing your partner is also represents who you are don’t forget that.
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    • Wizard says

      @Izzy: Wealthy westerners who EARNED their wealth - they invest their money on better things than some woman who is trying to score a foreigner. And they engage in something called prenuptial agreements to protect their assets as best they can - if they get married.If the Thai man is more than willing to pay Sin Sod since it is his culture and the Thai woman can't land a Thai man, thus seeking out foreigners, maybe she is unwanted goods to the Thai man?Another FYI. Wealthy people get divorced too. The difference is they can take the financial hit of divorce better than someone who is not as wealthy. But again, if you came from a wealthy Thai family you probably would not be spending your time on a blog post aimed at educating foreigners. You'd be getting all kinds of offers from wealthy Thai suitors. Perhaps you don't get enough offers from wealthy Thai men?Let's talk about Thai culture not in segments, but in its entirety, please. The fact is many Thai women who are with western men AND who are not in need of money don't care about Sin Sod. I know a lot of them. But most of the women coming into contact with foreigners are either from poorer families whose primary and often sole aim is to score a foreigner because no 'wealthy' Thai man is interested, or she's a plain gold digger and not ideal wife material from a Western perspective. I am going to take a wild guess that a good number of men commenting here are enquiring about the latter type of woman. She's not worth the trouble she and her family will cause in the name of culture and conditional love. It is better that the Western man dump her and let her find someone else. My opinion, best for everyone.Now, I am not going to defend some of the men who go on about their Thai girlfriends demanding outrageous amounts for their undying love. To those men, you are too poor to marry her, and be thankful you are. It's a message to you get wealthy and learn where to invest your money. Let her go, make money, when you have achieved that, the women will come lining up to know you. Read between the lines.
      Reply

      • TheThailandLife says

        The fact is many Thai women who are with western men AND who are not in need of money don’t care about Sin SodNot true. I only know of one woman who told her parents she didn't want a Sin Sod. Every Thai-Thai marriage I have known (20+), all middle class, have had a Sin Sod. It's a tradition. You don't need to like it, but you can't lie it away.But most of the women coming into contact with foreigners are either from poorer families whose primary and often sole aim is to score a foreigner because no ‘wealthy’ Thai man is interestedYes, Because Thailand is a classist society. It is structured in such a way. Money marries money, period. Does this make a woman from a poorer family a lesser human being? Does this mean that all those rich girls from wealthy families have happy marriages with their rich Thai husbands? Certainly not. Infidelity is prevalent in all sectors of society, as is domestic violence, alcoholism, etc. And we all know that the Mia Noi tradition is still very much alive and well in the upper echelons of society.Just because a rich man won't marry a relatively poor woman doesn't make her undesirable or a lesser person.Of course one has to be careful. Where people are living hand to mouth and seeking a way out of poverty, they will seek any opportunity they can. Some become resentful and bitter and won't think twice about scamming someone who is richer than them, be it a business scan or a marriage scam – but this is not exclusive to Thailand.But you choose to focus solely on this one area. Don't forget that many of the Thai women who marry a foreign national were previously married to a Thai. Many of these women would certainly never want to go through that experience again – because of the drinking, gambling, infidelity and the inability to "man up" and take care of one's family properly. So who can blame them for wanting to marry a foreign national, who they perceive as having better family values and having greater ability to take care of their family? We all want better for ourselves and our families. And the reality is that the majority of Thai-foreign marriages work out very well.But as is always the case when a white western man marries a Thai woman, a Filipino woman, a Cambodian woman, a Kenyan woman, an Indian woman, whoever, some people are naturally compelled to cast aspersion and judgement and want to make the case that the white man is getting a bad deal because this woman is somehow tainted goods or unwanted by her native man. But hidden behind this rhetoric is clearly the opinion of the narrator, which is that he himself views the foreign woman as a lesser person, and therefore feels that she is undeserving of the financial support or emotional commitment of her white partner. In their opinion it should all be one-sided: the foreign woman should bow down to all the traditions and expectations of her partner because he has the money, the intelligence, the power, right?There are people with bad intentions the world over. And I hope this post helps those men who do come across a bad apple avoid the situation and move on to better pastures.
        Reply

        • Wizard says

          Perhaps you need to revise your post so that you clear up some confusions. See...a woman from a lower socio-economic status seeks a man from a higher one, albeit a westerner. She herself is not interested in marrying down (in other words she sees socio-economic status as very important, often more so than the quality of the relationship itself).So, why should not the foreigner view this transaction in the same way? If she is not at your socio-economic level, think twice about marrying her. Her socio-economic status should be more important than her qualities as a woman in a relationship, because she is looking at you that way too.I do want to correct you. I know a ton of Thais from upper echelons who have not so nice words to refer to the lower rungs of their social order. Many foreigners are unfortunately only projecting what is already a reality of the Thai society.
          Reply

          • TheThailandLife says

            The foreigner can view the transaction in the same way, in any country, with any woman, not just Thailand. I'd encourage people to find relationships based on genuine connections.I know / have met Thais from all walks of like. I have met pompous idiots, materialistic twats and those who look down on those with less money. I also happen to some folks with a lot of money, and some folks living day to day, all of whom are kind, honest people who don't look down on others for what they have or haven't got. I'm not really interested in self-serving, snobby rich folk, or manipulative poor folk, or vice versa. I endeavor to surround myself with hardworking, honest people who don't judge a person by their level of wealth but rather by their moral compass.
            Reply

  16. Sb says

    I am married here in the United States for 9 months now and my goal was to give HER a wedding in her town. I understood the tradition of Sin Sod and figured it to be between 5-10,000 US Dollars. I came to find out now that her mom is asking 35,000 US dollars or 1,151,000 baht. I can neither save or come even close To that amount. Monthly income is 2,400 with 1,300 of it as bills. After all this planning I am worried I have to tell her I am cancelling the wedding in Thailand. Does her family not know that would bankrupt us right out of the gate? I don’t know how to move forward now. She has no kids or previous marriage, family is not poor, she has a Thai environmental engineering degree and is 33 years old. I’m at a loss on how to approach this!!
    Reply

    • TheThailandLife says

      Surely she knew of your financial situation before you got married, and surely she understands how expensive it is to live in the US and how difficult it is to manage on your salary with such high bills? If she doesn't understand these things, then I suggest you sit down with her and explain that to build a future together you need to be very careful with money, as do most people in the world. She can then explain this to her parents and say that this amount is completely unreasonable.If her family is fairly well-off, and I'm assuming they are from your description, then they have no need for this money. So I'm thinking that this is an amount that they want to show at the wedding, just to show off to their friends and business associates. This is very common in Thailand. Actually, it is very common for the Sin Sod to be returned after the wedding, particularly if the family is financially stable and doesn't need the money. The parents will usually advise that the couple to put this towards their future, such as investing in a house or a business. In the case of poorer families, perhaps part of it will be given to the parents as a gift to invest, start a business or build a home. In the case of a poor family, the amount certainly wouldn't be as high as that; you're more likely talking 100-300k (THB), dependingIt is also important to understand this tradition and not fall prey to modern interpretations that seem only to be applied to foreign nationals marrying Thai nationals. The Sin Sod actually needs to be agreed between your parents and her parents. Traditionally, in Thailand, when a couple plan to marry, the prospective groom's parents will visit the prospective bride's parents and discuss such matters. It would be up to your parents to decide based on the factors I point out in my article whether or not the amount being stated is reasonable. In the case of wealthy families, they usually want to display their wealth to the local community and show how important their daughter is by way of a big Sin Sod, which is why you get big media coverage when an actress or other famous person gets married and has a huge Sin Sod. But it's all for show.At the end of the day, if the family are financially stable then why would they want to de-stable the financial situation of their daughter's new family by demanding such an amount? Surely it would not be in their best interest to do so. However, I can't imagine that they want to keep this amount. If it turns out that they do, sit your wife down and explain exactly what the financial situation is.Research the tradition and suggest to your wife that you take the proper route, that is for your parents to speak with her parents and decide on an amount. Of course, your parents would think that this is a ridiculous demand and I'm sure would want a very good explanation as to what warrants such a large amount of money. Also explain that while you have married into a different culture, she has also married into a different culture. Therefore, both cultures need to be respected in this regard. So explain that while you are happy to have a traditional ceremony and have a sin sod, she has to meet you halfway. Being showy with money and giving away large amounts of money for no real apparent reason, is just nonsensical.
      Reply

  17. William Baker says

    So, I travel to Pattaya a lot, and never wanted a relationship, but was approached by a very popular lady of the night. She is a big earner. Shes never been married, but has a 6 year old. She has always sent 70000, 80000 thb home a month. They have bought almost a dozen buffalos, and she has sent enough home that they have two houses paid for. She is tall and a unique looking Thai lady, and truly is sought after. She never charged me, and often paid her own barfine to spend as much time with me as possible. I earn 150000thb a month from retirement, but to her its not a lot of money. This os how shes painted the picture to me. She likes being home taking care of her daughter and being with her family. She calls me two and three times a day to show me what shes doing. Now heres where I get the vibe that she would be sad if I ended it, but she could return to the bar and earn big money. I know its a culture of games and decieving, so everything she says may be incorrect. She doesnt want her family to meet me until I have saved a lot of money, because she wants me to appear wealthy, and for me to not be embarrassed. She wants me to return, buy a car, and then states her mother wants one million THB. They feel she can sell her body and earn that. This is not to mention gold. Again I know its a culture of greed and hand outs. She has a daughter and has been around. How can anyone expect a big sin sod? She is extremely beautiful and sexy.
    Reply

    • TheThailandLife says

      This is pure deception and manipulation.Why would you want to marry into a family where the mother and father are happy with her selling her body to keep them in buffalos and houses.It's only a culture of greed and handouts if you marry into a family that has adopted that culture.1 MTB to marry a known prostitute in her town? You'd be a laughing stock, and end up broke within a few years.My advice, for what it's worth: find a woman more your own age, with some interests in common and similar life expectations. A woman with her own pension or income, a woman who wants companionship: to travel, sip fine wine, visit historical sites and art galleries, go on courses, read books, go running, cycling, yoga, whatever floats your boat.Don't get mixed up with these people. Find someone, and a family, with an ounce of intelligence.
      Reply

  18. Adam West says

    Now, of it's a cultural thing both cultures should be respected rather than just the Thai culture. I come from a culture where you pay your own way and your money remains yours. I married my Thai wife away from her village. She knew I wasn't wealthy as I was 21 and in the next at the time. We just registered or marriage without a ceremony. It was a case of real love and not a marriage based on Funchal security. My advice is to not pay sin sod, or worst case scenario just a very small amount. If the last in question has a problem then she dies not love you... As is most often the case. I know a lot of people won't like my view but that is the way it is. I value rational thought more than most things and don't care too much for cultural sensitivities..
    Reply

  19. Warren says

    I am currently still with my girlfriend but her parents and I have different views about sinsod. I live in UK with my mum whilst looking after her and practically doing what the eldest daughter is doing which is contributing to costs, cooking, cleaning and assisting with daily routines. My dad is no longer with us.Her mum asked for 1 million baht which I agreed to however she also requested that my girlfriend still live with her mum and dad and that I move to Thailand to live with her parents aswel, meaning I have to leave my mum, my family/friends, my well-paid job and settle into a different life. Don't forget to mention that I have to start studying with the Thai language and TEFL courses to get work. (I am currently an IT consultant).Soooo...shouldn't I be entitled to sinsod aswel? Or is this just a thing that only women are entitled to because people seem to forget that men also financially support and look after their parents just as well as women? I mean why should I pay sinsod when she will still be living with her parents and looking after them even after marriage?I will respect other's culture but respect has to come both ways. I have no issues with the money but it is the lack of mutual respect has made it a red flag. There are benefits but also flaws in sinsod, a financial security for a woman's family but not for the man's? This makes it a dowry in my books and it's also a good reason why it's just a tradition and not a law.
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    • TheThailandLife says

      Hi Warren,I understand where you are coming from, but I think you are missing the key point of sin sod. It is essentially a repayment for the "mothers milk": the cost and sacrifice of raising a daughter from birth to adulthood.If we are frank about this tradition, in the modern day the old principles only really apply to poor families, where they literally have been living on the breadline trying to raise their daughter and give her the best possible life. So the sin sod would be of huge benefit to the parents in terms of money to put away for retirement or improvements to essential things that need fixing in the home.Though there is also one aspect that isn't often spoken about, which is the fact that the money represents a security of sorts; in that if the husband was to suddenly leave the daughter after a period of time (potentially leaving her with children, too) the daughter would have to move back home and her parents would have to support her financially, or at least look after the children while she goes out of work. In this event, the sin sod money could be used to weather the storm, so to speak.Also consider that the sin sod is a representation of your ability to financially care for their daughter. The premise being that if you can afford to pay the sin sod then you can afford to properly take care of their daughter in marriage.In the modern day, for middle-class and upper-class families, sin sod is generally just a show piece for the wedding; a way to display the wealth of one's family and how high up they are in the pecking order of society. A well-to-do family, with a respected name, will want to show, and be expected to show, a large sin sod for their daughter. The money is generally returned after the wedding.When it comes to poorer women marrying foreign men, some families also see this as an opportunity to appear somewhat higher on the social ladder, too, and therefore higher than warranted amounts are suggested to up the stakes.You are not entitled to a sin sod because you are a man. In Thai culture, you, as the man, would be expected to financially support your ageing parents anyway; this is a given.Although it may seem like it to you, they wouldn't even think twice that there was any lack of mutual respect here; it is just the culture. There are very clearly defined gender roles in Thai society. Men are not expected to moan about having to work hard and earn a living for their family, support their parents financially, and contribute to supporting the parents of their partner financially, if necessary. One's parents tend to be put on an unbreakable pedestal, and regardless of what they do it is an absolute sin to disobey or disrespect one's parents.Of course these are generalisations, but in my experience fairly accurate ones; though some families think more progressively than others: One of my good friends refused to have a proper Thai wedding or a sin sod, and her parents were fine with that.At the end of the day, don't do anything you don't feel comfortable with; you'll set a bad precedent for your marriage. I certainly wouldn't agree to living with my wife's parents. I would actually go as far as saying that unless you want your marriage to end after a year or two, don't do that :)1MB is a lot of money and this amount would suggest that your girlfriend is well educated and from a well-to-do family. Or perhaps it's just a case that they want to show this amount at the wedding. It is very common now for sin sod to be returned after the wedding, so I would ask about this too.Perhaps you should slow down and consider your position. You are an IT consultant, so I assume you earn a pretty good wage. Do you really want to trade in this career and lifestyle to teach TEFL in Thailand – which is going to be poorly paid in comparison and put you on a much lower social scale in Thailand. Would you be able to support yourself and your wife and have the lifestyle you want on this wage in Thailand?Would it not be a better idea for your future wife to move to your home country?
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      • Pine says

        Great conversations on this topic, very interesting debate. From my point of view, there are many flaws in the author's steadfastness in continuing to state what Sin Sod traditionally means. My point is that the Thai people have one tradition for Thai marriages and another more modern tradition for Thai and Farang marriages.Once a Farang is involved the entire context of Sin Sod changes. Do not think for one minute that the Thai family will return any of the Sin Sod to the Farang! They will start to spend the Sin Sod the day after the ceremony. Kiss your money goodby. And every time you go with your pretty young wife to her parent's home take not of the beautiful smiles on their faces they shine your way. The smile that says, "got you, SUCKER!"You will never have any respect from the Thai family, whether you pay Sin Sod or not! There is nothing a Farang can do to earn respect of a Thai family. They will always look at you and treat you as an outsider.My advice, not that you will take it, is to NEVER pay Sin Sod. Treat your wife the best you can, share great life experiences and your time with her and enjoy your time together. If she loves you she will stay with you, if she doesn't then she will go and snare someone else.If you are having problems with your girlfriend or wife over payment of Sin Sod and she is demanding you pay. Then that really makes it clear and simple of what you should do. Do not pay. Let her go if she so wants to!There are so many young and middle-aged Thai women that would be proud to be your wife without you paying Sin Sod! Most good (defined as not a bar girl) Thai women want a serious relationship that is secure and want their man to take care of them. Just ask a Thai woman what is most important to them? Heck go on youtube and watch the hundreds of videos where they interview Thai women and ask what they want most from a boyfriend/husband. The first thing out of their mouths is, "I want a man to take care of me!"Oh, and by the way, never move your Thai girlfriend/wife to your country. The culture shock for them will destroy your relationship. They grew up with their family being the center point of their life, and if you take them away from that, she will come to hate you and your country. You should move to Thailand and live with her there. You can rent a house in a non-tourist city in a nice neighborhood for under $400 US a month. Never, and I stress NEVER buy or build a house for you and your wife. The land will need to be is her name and if you ever call it quits, then she will get the land and the house! Rent a condo or a house if always the way to go in Thailand for a foreigner. If you have relationship problems you can move with no loss of investment, or if her family is becoming a problem, then you can move to another province and rent there.Cheers
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        • TheThailandLife says

          I disagree that no Thai family would return the Sin Sod. Mine was returned and I gave a gift to my wife's parents. I know of others who've done the same. It really depends on the family and the circumstances. Sin Sod is not different for foreigners. It is only different if one doesn't learn about it and ends up being manipulated by an unscrupulous family or partner. That's why this post exists; to help others make an informed decision.I disagree about never moving to your home country with your wife. I have numerous friends living with their partners in Europe and the move has been the making of the them. Many now have their own businesses, a couple are enrolled at university, other are working decent jobs in hospitals, libraries, as teaching assistants and in other public sector jobs where the pension benefits are very good. Many of these couples previously lived together in Thailand and made the decision to move in the best interest of their family future. They holiday back in Thailand once or twice a year and very much enjoy their lives.Don't underestimate people's potential, and don't generalise an entire race of women/men. As with any country, there are millions of different people with different backgrounds, different levels of education, different talents and skill-sets, different aspirations, different emotional needs. I think this is the biggest mistake made by foreign men in Thailand, that is the labelling of "Thai women". "Thai women" like x, y,z. Thai women want this, Thai women will never do that, etc. I don't wake up in the morning and see my wife as a "Thai woman": She is an individual, a human being, who is unlike any other woman I have known. She is unlike any other "Thai woman" I have known; if anything I find her supposed lack of "Thainess" quite funny. She is evolving into a new person every day, as we all do in life.Man, I need to do a post on this....
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    • del says

      Its a total con man. Thais are experts at [offensive generalisation removed by admin] foreigners. They always harp on about 'Thai culture'. Listen to this. Since I earned my money in grubby 'uk' culture , they cannot apply their culture rules to it. You have to tell your gf you will happily toil away in Thailand as a tefl teacher and you will save up for the dowry that way . See how long the relationship lasts then !!.. Get a grip dude get to the Philippines where people are more advance in English, far more friendly and you can create better friendships. Good luck.
      Reply

  20. C says

    My fiance was raised by her uncle because her father was a deadbeat and her mother died when she was 2. She has two preteen boys from a relationship with their farther which lasted ten years. The boys father won't talk to the boys and pays zero for them. My fiance owns a salon and a boutique I helped her get off the ground. Her "sisters" (technically cousins) and their families are all teachers or law enforcement professionals (not BIB) The first thing out of the family's mouth was not congratulations but sin sod. I've met them all and they all love me and the feeling is mutual but considering I will get the full bill for the wedding, no gifts from the invitees, a lifetime of expenses related to her two boys etc etc I was a little disappointed by their response. I am going to tell her how much the budget is for the entire event and she will have to decide how much is sin sod and how much is for the wedding and make due with that. And that number is 10k. I've got a feeling some people are not gonna be happy but they can send a bill to her ex to make up for their loss. They live to impose their culture while totally disregarding ours and at the same time ignoring everything that has been paid to date. Frustrating to say the least. Ok, rant over.
    Reply

  21. RM says

    Hello!Great blog with lot's of useful information.Here's my story. I've been dating my Thai girlfriend for 19 months. She's 26, an only child, and is studying in her second year for her Masters. Economically her situation and family is so so. I've been helping to support her for about a year now by sending her 13000 Thai Baht every month. I've also helped with her school payments. We plan on getting married in September.The problem is her mother, unfortunately her mom seems to dislike men and Falangs in general. My girlfriend has only had 1 previous boyfriend (Thai) that lasted for 6 months until her mom ended it when she was 22. I get the feeling that her mom doesn't want her to be with anyone so she can have her all to herself for her entire life. She has done her best to try to break us up over the past 19 months but my girlfriend has told me she really loves me and will not let that happen. I've had no relationship with the mother since last December when she (mom) physically attacked me for kissing her daughter on the shoulder in front of her. I really want nothing to do with her mom and have told my girlfriend that I cannot ever live with her mother when we marry, she has told me she accepts that.My girlfriend wants me to talk to her mom to ask her for permission to marry and sin sod. Her mom once asked me to give her 650,000 Thai Baht to 'prove that I loved her daughter' (she really wanted the money to pay off a debt) I told her mom no, but that I would pay that in Sin sod when I married her daughter, to which her mom replied ... "then it will cost you a million" I had told my girlfriend that I should be able to come up with the 600,000 Thai Baht coming into 2018. Unfortunately, 2018 has not been a good year for me financially and now I think I may only be able to come up with 200,000 to 300,00 Thai Baht for sin sod. My girlfriend has told me that even if I can't come up with anything and even if her moms tells me no, I cannot marry her or asks for too much sin sod she will still marry me this year. (I can marry without her moms permission, right?)I have no clue about the formalities or even starting a conversation with her mom let alone discussing sin sod. I also don't think it will go well and her mom will either demand too much, or tell me to take a hike. Am I supposed to discuss Sin Sod or ask permission for marriage (her mom knows we want to marry) or both? Any advice on formalities and or ideas on how to handle this would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
    Reply

    • Robert says

      If her mother really said 'prove that you loved her daughter' by PAYING HER - not Sin Sod - but PAYING HER!!!!!!!!!!! I would have called her a Mammasan and she was "Bar Fineing" her daughter!!! - then walked away. The relationship is doomed. The mother will not change and will ruin her daughter's life. She just proved it!!! This is completely my opinion and I don't want to offend you. However - if you really love your girlfriend and she can REALLY pick you over her mother. Good Luck. I will be surprised if that happens and wish you all the happiness the two of you deserve. You did EVERYTHING you possibly could and if wasn't enough.
      Reply

      • TheThailandLife says

        Sorry RM, I don't how I missed replying to this. It sounds like you are really stretching yourself (financially) to come up with this money. And for what? to please a mother in law who doesn't like you, a mother who will never respect you, a mother who will talk about you behind your back, a mother who will always say that you are not good enough for her daughter?Is this the life you want?No matter how much money you give her, it will never be enough. The demands will never stop. No matter if you cut the mother out of your life and never speak to her, the demands for money will come through her daughter and she will make her daughter's life a misery. This will affect your marriage and your happiness.It is a very sad situation that the mother controls her daughter in this way, manipulating her and using her as some kind of bartering tool. But sadly it is not uncommon. Many Thai girls from similar circumstances marry foreigners and move abroad. They should be enjoying their newly found lives of privilege: many don't have to work, many drive nice cars, live in a nice home with food & drink abundantly available, have nice holidays, have great kids... but they remain miserable because of the constant emotional blackmail by family members back home, pestering them for money and making them feel guilty for not sharing their wealth and supporting family.The only way your GF will ever be happy is if she completely turns her back on her mother. In my opinion, this will never happen.
        Reply

  22. Max says

    As often is the case the foreigner and the Thai girl may live together prior to getting married as in my case. During the years we have been together I have bought a house and land all in my partners name because foreigners cannot own land, but I was happy to give it to her. This means that she has already received large sums of money should we ever separate or if I die. Now we are planning to get married what sin sod would be appropriate. A little background to help: she has been married before, has 3 children, 2 of which are grown and working, only one living with us, she comes from a relatively poor family but has a university education and has a well paid senior management job.
    Reply

  23. Rich says

    Just to add my comments here; I've been talking to a girl from Thailand for a few months, she's university educated, never married, no kids and works in Bangkok as an accountant. Im 47 and she is 30 so there is a little age difference. We video call every day; and I'm planning a visit to see her and her family soon. She didn't bring up money at all for a while, but as we started getting more serious, she told me she had a loan from when her father got ill (proven with pictures, receipts, etc). She told me clearly she did NOT want me to pay it now or send her ANY money, but asked if I would consider helping her with it IF and AFTER we decided to marry, if she hadn't paid it off by then. We talked just briefly about marriage so far but are serious. She mentioned sin sod,and asked me if I knew about it; and said her family wasn't after trying to gouge a foreigner; they would probably expect 300-500k sin sod. Any thoughts ?
    Reply

    • TheThailandLife says

      Hi Rich, have you not met yet at all? If not, it's a bit strange to talk about paying a loan off IF you got married, and even getting married at all. I always advise the same thing: don't do anything you wouldn't do in your own country when dating. If she was to date a Thai man in Bangkok they wouldn't be talking Sin Sod - this is generally something the families decide on, anyway - or loan repayments so early on.Take it very slow. Take things with a pinch of salt at this stage. Date for at least a year or more.
      Reply

      • Rich says

        Thanks for the advice! Yes we do plan on dating for a year, my sense is that she just wanted to be honest about her debt. I was the one who mentioned marriage first after we had talked for a couple of months; basically asking about marriage traditions there. She did say her parents would talk with me aobut sin sod, etc IF we get that far in the relationship.
        Reply

  24. Interesting says

    My gf just told me about the marriage proposal for her younger sister 23, graduting next year with BSc in Nursing. The young Thai man is a police officer. The man's father proposed 500,000 baht cash and 10 baht gold and it was accepted by the woman's family. They will get married after she graduate next year.
    Reply

  25. Alan says

    My good friend recent had an engagement ceremony. He is an ESL teacher in Thailand from Aussie, she is from a well to do family. Her mum likes him so she said don't need any sin sot. His girlfriend told him to offer 9 baht of gold for good luck. They had a lovely family engagement ceremony.
    Reply

  27. Married Surin says

    I have been with my Thai wife for 7 years now. I have never known happiness to this level. At the same time, it was very difficult for her adjusting to an almost opposite life style and customs. I travel the world for work and spend 6-12 months a year in each country. As the man, you must understand her struggle of being away from her family and culture and be sensitive as this article is correct that she will rely on you for emotional support and understanding. Marrying Thai is not for the faint of heart. Be sure and spend a lot of time with the entire family and her friends before you marry. They are your window to how she will be when she settles in and what she will be like for the long haul. Mine is from Surin, college educated and 30 when I met her. Nice girl raised by a fairly well off family with traditional values. Great article btw. Good Luck.
    Reply

    • TheThailandLife says

      Sound advice. I guess this applies in any country really. You should always spend a lot of time with the person before make a huge commitment like marriage. The longer you are with someone, and the more time you spend with her around her friends and family, more you will see the true colours of that person begins to emerge. The majority of us have one or two skeletons in the closet, so to speak, the closer you get to someone the more likely you are to open the closet, which is a fairly important thing to do before you get married. Over the past 10 years I've heard from so many men and women who have married a Thai, and for those who have encountered problems and bad situations post the marriage it has usually been to do with the extended family: mother-in-law, father-in-law, brothers, sisters, etc. In many cultures around the world, when you marry someone you also marry the family, so to speak. Then there is certainly a big element of that in Thailand. So you might want to not only consider the woman you are marrying, but whether or not you can put up with the family!
      Reply

  29. RW says

    It is my understanding that an agreed upon amount of sin sod is given to the parents on the wedding day, but also a large amount of gold is given specifically to the bride as well.Is that correct (and typical)?From what I've read, the value of the gold can rival the sid sod - effectively doubling the expense!
    Reply

    • TheThailandLife says

      Gold is usually presented at the wedding to, as a gift for the bride. The amount of gold does vary and in some cases it might well rival the amount of money, but there is no specified ratio here and is entirely up to you. Most weddings I've been to have had 1-3 Baht of gold, depending on the wealth of the families involved. As always, is advisable to cut according to your cloth. Discuss with your future wife what you can afford. A one Baht bracelet will set you back around 20k, which is around $600.
      Reply

  30. Laos says

    I actually had this convorsation with my girlfriend yesterday about this, I wasn't really bothered too much after the explination etc. however, her family is very wealthy and apparently the people who have asked to marry her (Thai men in an arranged marrige) have been told 9,000,000 Baht. She assured me that it probably wouldn't be that much to a foreigner but even if it was halved that is a very difficult amount of money to get your hands on for just a regular Joe. She mentioned something about there being companies where you can rent the money just for the wedding day etc. I don't suppose you have any information about this do you?
    Reply

    • TheThailandLife says

      If they are very wealthy this sort of sin sod is not uncommon. But it would certainly be returned. It would just be for show. Rich families like to display their wealth at weddings, in this way. Be careful going into this and be aware of the expectations; not just for the wedding but for life going forward. I know a Singaporean guy who married into a wealthy Thai family. After the wedding the father wasn't happy that his daughter was living in a condo, so he bought them a town house (somewhere around 10-12M Baht). He put a few million down but then handed over the repayments to the husband. He did the same with a Mercedes. They are separated. The father won't allow him to see his son. Marrying a very poor Thai woman can be a financial burden, but marrying a wealthy Thai woman can be a heavier one.
      Reply

  31. Wolf says

    Hello, i’m now more then 12 years together with my thai wife ans she has a university education and was a math teacher. It’s not all the time you have to pay sin sod. After the buddist wedding we got the money back 2.000.000 looks like a lot of money It think 100.000 till about 500.000 for a educated girl is ok Wolf
    Reply

    • TheThailandLife says

      Gold is usually part of the sin sod, yes. But don't feel pressured into giving any amount. Have your parents met with hers to decide on this matter? Is the money being returned, or do they want to keep it? Traditionally, once married, you would stay together.
      Reply

  33. Ginga says

    I am engaged to a thai girl from a working class family and at the ceremony in her hometown, which by all standards is a pretty shoddy village, their friends and family all gave us money.I was quite touched to receive over 4000 from them.My fiancée said that the guests will be expected to give us money at our wedding too, she went to 3 weddings since I have met her and always put 500-1000 baht in an envelope. So I'm not sure I agree that only wealthy families give you money.Her mother asked for 200k baht sin sod and my fiancée wants to show 1 million at the wedding and give the rest back to me.She does a great job around the house and I am never hungry. She takes good care of my high sex drive too *g*.Coming from a poor background though she was a bit of a spendthrift.We have been fighting quite a lot about money because even though I am rich by Thai standards I am frugal and want her to help me save money here and there and not spend it sheepishly.After quite a bit of fighting and tears things have improved a lot. I love her very much and I am truly happy that she changes her habits and mentality to suit me better. A wonderful and loving woman.This article helped me understand her needs and social expectations better. Thank you for writing it up and putting it online :)
    Reply

    • TheThailandLife says

      Hi Ginga, to clarify: I didn't say only 'only wealthy families give you money'. I think you're referencing where I said that wealthier families usually give the sin sod (dowry) back because it is just for show and they don't need it.This is a separate aspect of the wedding you are referring to: At a Thai wedding you will usually receive an envelope from each guest. This is posted in a box, usually kept in the reception area of the venue, or by the door just before you go in. Gifts range from 20 Baht to 1,000 Baht, and this can total up to quite a high amount - depending on the number of guests.Glad the article helped!
      Reply

  34. NK says

    We were talking about this and she told me that her friend who want to marry a mountain girl is paying for 1 million baht.My gf is a university holder and her family is consider rich in TH and they have a couple of businesses. I asked her then what is the amount that she thinks her family would expect but she refused to tell me.I am thinking that if a mountain girl is asking for one million. Then for her is 2 to 3 million? Is this way too much? or how much should it be?Can you please advise.Thanks.
    Reply

    • Andy says

      Hi , I’ve been following comments about sin sort for some time know . I am due to get married in Thailand in 3 months . Me and my wife an her mother have had a laugh about sin sort ! How much wil I pay etc . Her family are mainly farmers from Isaan an are not cash rich people , they have land which they farm an get some money to live . Unfortunately her father past away a few years back , an her mother does a great job on bringing up her 5 kids. The youngest being 14 an in school. I always help out every month with 8000 baht to help her mum with the basic costs of living . I’m a working class lad an earn a ok wage. Me an my finace have a small child together and are in the process of sorting visas out for my wife to be , this on its own is very expensive to sort an you need large savings in your bank to show you can support her. Something to think about is your plans for the future . If your loaded an got endless money this is not as issue an what you pay for the sin sort wont be . I want to respect thai culture , but they have to respect my culture an I the old days the brides family pays towards the wedding , they don’t have anything to give . My mother in law to be , sees I’m a good person that does my best to support where I can . In in respect of this I’m going to offer 100000 baht an buy 1 or 2 baht gold for her . So about £3000. An this will not affect me going forward with the life I need to pay for . I will also be paying The same for the cost of the wedding . One thing I don’t get / understand with the sin sort is that 2 people are marring , to start a life . Surely they need money to help them pay for the wedding or deposit for a house to give them a good start . Not give all there money away an start out on your back foot . Times have changed a lot an I think you have to use commen sense an explain to her family what you can really afford . If it’s true an ment to be they will understand . Even after we marry I will still help her mum out with some money from time to time , because she is a great person an never puts herself first always her kids. An I’m proud to become part of the family . Good luck everyone .
      Reply

      • Foreginer says

        It is hard to understand because we are from a different culture. But think about, if you grown up as a man in Thailand according to Thai culture, you are being prepared for this, means you have the chance to save up money for the sin sod since the first day you start working. Also your parents can help you out with this. If you are a foreigner, you do not expect to pay something like this, when you start your life. So literally you have like 1-2 year to save up the amount, also you can not expect your family to help you out with this. I respect Thai culture, and willing to pay sin sod, also for the wedding, since I love my partner, but I am also a handworker, not a rich lad, and she knew this, wen we started our relationship. The one thing that they should also understand is, if they expect us to pay, it is fine, but it takes some time.
        Reply

  35. Ta Bo says

    Interesting post. Thanks for the effort.I'm right now dealing with the wedding/sin sod issue too and.... getting lost in all that.As back ground, fiancé has had a traditional marriage before (I understand) and a kid with a Thai "husband" (no official marriage though). After their seperation she had a 2nd kid with a foreigner (accident, but the kid is here).We've know each other quite a while now - long story - and I've been helping (financially) with the 2nd kid birth before we actually got together.Back to the main topic, when talking about wedding I asked about Sin Sod, I asked if the family was expecting any. The answer was more or less a "yes" as my GF transalted her mother's word for "She say up to you".I explained I don't know anything about Sin Sod and thai wedding so I need her to "guide" me a little... I explained about how we would do if we were both from my home country (share the cost of the wedding itself but nothing more).Then she came up mentioning the 200k THB 1 her friend was offered a couple of weeks ago (I saw the wedding ceremony and the money... all true).It's hard for me to go that far. My point being... I take care for everything already, I help her family with their business from time to time (20k here and there to avoid her mother borrowing it from some "shark"), I participate with the cost of her brother's "going to do monk" ceremony in a couple of weeks (50k) AND more importantly, I expect to be asked to keep doing so in the future.Paying a 200k Sin Sod sounds too much. I could consider that as a "show-off" but would expect (at least part) it to be returned... But as I understand I cannot mention that I would expect it back nor even ask for it. A Sin Sod that covers the cost of the ceremony + 1-2 baht in gold (that 20-40k THB) is thinkable...I am crazy to think I'm pretty much screwed here?
    Reply

  36. Andyxxx says

    My girlfriend has no family. Her mother passed away 15 years ago, and her father married another woman around 25 years ago, forming another family in the process.She never went to university, and she is asking for 2,000,000 baht. Am I being taken for a ride?She is super sweet, cleans the house, washes my clothes, and does her job in bed. However she seems to be on the high end with material requests. Recently I was forced to buy her the new iPhone, and she has hinted about the need to change it every couple of years.She also organized a trip with her family and a couple of her friends, and I'm expected to pay for the hotel.I'm a bit confused because she is super nice, and seems to really love me and look after me. She's always available, but she believes it's my responsibility to be the financial provider.Thoughts?
    Reply

    • TheThailandLife says

      Does her job in bed? Forced to buy a new iPhone? You have to be trolling?!But if not....Since sinsod (สินสอด) translates to compensating a family for "mother’s milk” (the effort and lost earning potential to raise a child), yet her mother passed away 15 years ago and her Dad has a new family, I'm not sure it fully applies. You should speak with her father about it. Do remember that sin sod is decided between your parents and hers, not by her.
      Reply

    • GW says

      When you marry a Thai woman you are expected to look after her family, remember her family will always come first, never forget that, that's just the way it is, you should not pay any more than 400000 baht, that's just over 10000 euro, But as they say in Thailand, up to you, see you later, Lao pop gan mai.
      Reply

      • TheThailandLife says

        I wouldn't say that is necessarily true. It depends what social class of woman you marry. I have friends married to Thai women who never provide any financial support - because the families are comfortable and do not need any money from their daughter or her husband. Sure, if you marry into a poor family is likely that your wife worked prior to meeting or marrying you and sent money home to her parents on a monthly basis. So if she marries you and stops working, to have kids, for example, then parents will still expect her to take care of them to some degree; so this will most likely fall on you to contribute. I don't think this is actually far removed from any other society around the world. For example. there are plenty of men and women in the UK who provide money to their parents or siblings throughout their lives because they come from a poor family that has always struggled financially.One thing that is objectionable is providing financial help for extended members of a Thai family. If you marry a Thai woman and by doing so she stopped working to have children, for example, then I don't think it's unreasonable that if you can afford it you provide financial help to her family and fill the gap that has been left by her stopping work.But when I hear stories of husbands being expected to hand out money to brothers, sisters, auntie's, uncles and whoever else cannot help themselves, I think this is just exploiting opportunity and is something I would strongly advise not getting involved in. From my experience of speaking to others who have been in this situation, which are many, it never ends well. It never stops. Set out your boundaries early on, so people know that you are happy to help where you can but that you are not a bottomless pit of money, and that you expect everyone to work hard and manage their financial affairs by themselves in a responsible and adult manner; the same way we all have to.
        Reply

    • Paul H. says

      I'm new to this Thai Sin Sod business but all I can say to you is this. If the alarm bells are ringing, you've answered your own question. Your woman needs to respect you. Think with your brain and not the other thing. Good luck buddy.
      Reply

  37. True says

    A friend of mine in the US has been in a long-distance relationship with a Thai woman for a couple of years. He traveled to Thailand to meet her in person and propose to her. She's in her 20's, he's in his 40's. She has a professional job and wants to move to the US after they marry.I'm worried that he is being scammed. They are asking for $50,000 US to marry her. All the research I've done shows this is way too much. I wonder what's going on.
    Reply

    • TheThailandLife says

      Wow, that's a warning sign for sure. 50k? Unless she's a Thai superstar model or actress and he's of similar ilk and they are having a celebrity wedding, then it is a ridiculous amount. Even in those situations, the amount is generally just for show and media coverage - both families would be wealthy and the bride's family probably wouldn't actually keep the money.Indeed, most smaller scale weddings for everyday people are like this now; money is shown and returned, or given to the couple to invest in their future. If the woman is from a poor family, the money may be used to improve the home of her parents, or contribute to the setting up of a small family business, or similar. Certainly be wary of anyone trying to pocket a huge amount of money for their parents and extended family.Is this the first time he is meeting her in person? How much does he really know about her background: her education, job, family, etc? I'd advise him to proceed with caution and spend a lot of time with her and her family before making any commitments.
      Reply

    • GW says

      She is in her 20s and he is in her 40s, 50000 USD, please try to use you common sense, 400000 baht that is about 12000 USD no more. remember a Thai marriage is only recognised in Thailand, a long distance relationship is not really a relationship, How well does he know her? did he meet her online? before you splash out all that cash and get burned let me give you some advice, before you marry a thai woman move to Thailand, live there for a few years, learn about the Thai Culture, and before you get married live with your girlfriend for a few years, i guess Common Sense is not so common.
      Reply

  38. K says

    I hear “people in undeveloped countries tend to have undeveloped mind.” The reason I quote that was I am currently planning my wedding with my Thai fiancé. Her mom to prepare Sin Sod for the show but I will get that back. Very difficult for me to understand her because that is not the way I lived and want to live my life. I am a Korean American and I know that Korea has its own traditional wedding. However, Korea adapted Western culture and the weddding is mixed. Korea has something like Sin Sod but people do not do that anymore. I feel like Thailand needs to start to adapt new culture and discontinue practicing unhealthy culture. Now I’m trying to convince my fiancé to have a wedding in Bali so I don’t have to deal with Thai wedding.
    Reply

    • TheThailandLife says

      I would argue that a considerable portion of Thai society has moved past the traditional sin sod, but it is still culturally appropriated at most weddings. So as I've mentioned before, families will have a sin sod and show an amount of money that represents the social status of the bride/family, etc., but the money is usually returned, or it is invested for/by the couple in a house or business. Where poor families are concerned smaller amounts are at play and may still go to the bride's parents.Don't be pushed into anything you really feel uncomfortable with. Find a middle ground that you are both happy with.
      Reply

  39. Grey says

    Thank you so much for the mostly encouraging comments to a very helpful blog! Still struggling with the thought of being able to raise the money for a decent wedding ceremony, life will go on as mysterious destiny on this plane earth carves out what has been written in the stars.
    Reply

    • TheThailandLife says

      The actual ceremony can be as cheap or as expensive as you want. Many people marry at home, without much expense at all, others choose a nice hotel or local venue. I'd set a budget according to what you can afford to lose, so to speak, and go from there.
      Reply

  40. Vince says

    Hello, I post this comment as an information to others reading this excellent site. I met my thai wife in 2012 and dated her until 2 years ago when we got married. My education is: "You wake up in the morning and work hard for your money!" I have a really good position and money isn't an issue at all. When we started talking about Sin Sod, I came to this site to ask for advises. My wife comes from a poor familly, has little education, is a good, honest, hard working, beautifull Young (now 30yo/me 40yo) woman. She had been providing money to her familly for the past 10 years on her own as she had eared herself a proper job in BKK over the years! I explained her i would consider giving her mum Sin Sod as a one off payement but that she would have to explain her mum to use it carfully (health/retirement) and that that would than be it from my side! If she expected me to provide funds to her mum on a monthly basis I would simply not marry. I made this point very clear because my wife has brothers who are not interested in working and stay home all day. Her sister (34yo) has only now starded providing Financial support for her 2 kids after being dupped by her long terme drug dealer ex-BF. Plus, i knew perfectlly well that her mum wouldn't be able to handle money, as it is the case for many thais. After collecting all the information i could, from this site included, I agreed to provide her mum with 5000US Sin Sod, which disappeared in her bag during the celebration. So What happened to my hard eared money, which mum should have used wisely you may ask? Well, well , well...mum gave it all the her than BF so he could pay back some of his dept, than BF dumpt mum and guess what happened last month? Mum lets my wife know that she needs money and we get into an argument about it! I stand to my position and remind my wife of her "doing Nothing" brothers! Last year we went travelling to Thailand and i told my wife to fly one week earlyer so she could meet up with her familly (secetely hoping i could get away with it). When I landed in BKK i was surprised she had stayed in the capital with her sister. She later told me she didn't want to see her mum because she would ask her for money and she didn't want that. One day before we were due back to europe, mum calls my wife all nice and friendly before telling her:"send me money before you go!" My wife replayed she had no as she was not working and the obvious answer was "easy, ask your husband!" Life is as simple as that:) I dont think all thai are as bad as my familly in low (right?) but be really carefull about which girl you plan to marry and always keep an eye on your money...I married a good girl but her familly is useless and lazy, so the THE falang should provide...right! We have now a 2 month old boy, I am happy, still read this site and still don't send money to thailand...
    Reply

  41. William says

    Lets put this into the right perspective, if you marry a woman, the choice of how you go about it is down to the happy couple. Be it in Thailand or anywhere else. Now what is with all this silly talk about what you have to pay. Mmmmmm. In all cultures, families look after each other, expectations in different cultures vary. My western European culture is family comes first, help out when it is needed. I will be marrying a Thai lady, and any payment of any form has never been raised. The only thing ever discussed was that her siblings are all married and she being a daughter was expected to look after the parents, by being physically living close to them. All the siblings would pay her and her parents upkeep. If she never married her brothers would look after her as she had looked after the parents. In Thailand this is a social structure where families survive and look after each other, much as it was in European society, until we had the creation of welfare. Pensions, sick pay, health care. and all the other bells and whistles. When i asked her what the family plan was, it was similar to my own culture, everyone would pitch in to look after the parents. Now with having to give her parents money, well it was explained like this. Thank you for marrying our daughter, We planned a ceremony, and all that entails. The display of wealth is not even considered. I am joining the family, i will have responsibilities to my friend that then translates to her whole family. It is called Human decency.So for paying money is a total bogus affair. The families simply discuss how the happy couple will live and the whole wedding ceremony with any money displayed is showing that the couple are making a statement of starting life together with some money. Nothing more, nothing less. The whole Thai family support each other, that is the culture, The parents get looked after in old age, same as in any other culture. This whole moaning from Men crying about they have to give money, no you do not, it is a symbol at the wedding that you both have the means to live as a married couple. Same as any other culture. Gifts are shared, some cultures give, material gifts, money or live stock. Everyone shares. Some cultures do it strange. In Thailand , no one gives money to parents for their daughters. The deal is you join the family and share its responsibilities. Don't forget people here, look after the Monks each morning, they don't all do it. But lots do. So if your getting married, think about the family, your marrying into. Honour the parents with gifts, its a cultural aspect unique to all countries. As for being asked to give money, what is the money for. Remember in Thailand someone not married is expected to step up and be there for the parents. Which means do not be conned. Plan your big day, spend what you can afford, same as you would back home. Remember Thai culture is unique, respect the family. Give gifts of your choice, if your rich you can be generous, if you are like your average Thai income earner, its a day of celebration with what you can afford. Rich people spend more with their bigger disposable income, People less off sometimes over spend. It is your choice, As for this rubbish about paying back the family for raising the daughter, so you can marry her, bla bla bla. Remember it is everyone's responsibility to look after those in old age. No welfare system. Rich people flaunt their money, those without wish they could do the same. Do not be a fool and part with money you do not need to. I laugh at all the fools who forget they are getting married and it is their new life. You are providing a life for the daughter, and she will still need in her way look after the parents in their old age. The difference is if you are buying a woman, well that is a whole new topic. Are you getting married or are you buying a bride, because you can not get married for love In the end, give your money away or do it right have a proper wedding and show respect, by doing what you do in your own country. No such thing in Thailand as buying a woman, unless you are involved in modern Human slave trafficking.
    Reply

  42. Michael says

    I have been with my gf for about 8 months. She is from a middle class family. We did talk about our marriage and meeting her parents towards the end of next year. Today, we talked about Sin Sod. I can understand on the dowry- 300,000 baht (which she mentioned her parents would normally return to me and is just a form if formality) and the jewellery that we are discussing. But when she mentioned that because she be moving to my country to stay with me, she and her family would expect that i have my house to be under her name for a sense of security towards her family letting them know that i am capable of taking care of her daughter financially and because she is responsible for taking care of our children (in future). To me this is something that is over as it is not a culture practice on my end. Moreover i try to search on Sin Sod but i don't see anything that sayimg about housing is part of it. Please advise on this as i am confused when i hear this from her.
    Reply

    • TheThailandLife says

      Housing has nothing to do with Sin Sod, but is a culture issue in the upper classes - but not quite in the way you describe. Upper class families would expect the husband to buy a house and for this house to be a shared asset. It is quite common for the bride's family to contribute to buying the house to help the couple out, but the husband would be expected to undertake the mortgage.
      Reply

    • Jeffrey says

      Way too much risk here and would scare me too. We go through prenups to avoid this, yet seems they are circumventing any prenups out of the gate. I'd be saying that WE need this money to have a good start (the 300,000 baht) and get legal control over it before handing over any cash for show. Secondly no way in hell am I signing over my property I worked my life for as a show of faith. In our culture the man is responsible for looking after the welfare of his family and that means I also control the keys to the castle. If she says she is not interested in stingy foreigner, tell her nor are you interested in marrying a gold digger. On a personal note, the more I research the more moreI'm inclined to steer clear of this culture for these reasons. There are beautiful women everywhere and who needs the headache. Do you think I would get a Dowry if I married an Indian lady? I doubt it. Marriage is not about money in any sense and in modern society (any society) the couple can make decisions on their own.
      Reply

  43. Jack says

    I married a Thai woman who was 45. I was 47 at the time. She lived in Bangkok, worked in a bank, and was making about 600,000 per year. She had previously been married to her uncle. She did not have children, but she raised his daughter, her niece.I gave her 350,000 to refinance the loan she took out for her parents house. I pledged to give them 100,000 baht per year so that she wouldn't worry so much about them.During the first year of marriage, she had to wait for a work permit, so I paid about 300,000 baht against her loans.The next year, she worked, but she paid nothing for our expenses -- all of her earnings was sent home. I gave her parents the 100,000 and also gave my wife about 200,000 because she had some other debt turn up she didn't know about.In the third year of our marriage, she started having an affair with a 60 year old Filipino immigrant who was a supervisor at her job.I asked her to stop her affair and quit her job. She said she dumped him because she didn't want me to divorce her. She lied. She continued to see him, making excuses to work nights when she didn't have to, saying she couldn't take a vacation with me when she could have -- lots of lies like that.So I kicked her out. I will divorce her.In all, I gave her over 1 million baht cash to pay her debts and the loan on her parents home. I paid for her travel between US and Thailand for 3 trips. I paid all of her living expenses.It didn't matter. She didn't love me. There are no refunds. Be careful, my friends.
    Reply

    • TheThailandLife says

      Sorry to hear of your story. I hope you can move on and find happiness.Weird about the uncle. She couldn't have legally married him though:I quote: Section 1450. A marriage cannot occur if the man and woman are blood relations in the direct ascendant or descendant line, or brother and sister of full or half blood.
      Reply

  44. Phil says

    I am a 60-year-old bloke and my “gf” is a 42-year-old Thai lady, and we have been “together” for two and a bit years. I still live in England and plan to retire to Thailand in 4 years when I am 64. I fly to Thailand every 3 or 4 months so we can be together. She was previously married and has two daughters aged 15 and 17. She left her abusive husband and fled with her girls to a friend’s house, and lived with her for about a year or so. The husband died shortly afterwards. She has no parents and works as a cleaner in a local government office earning 9k baht per month, and I send money every month to augment her income for her upkeep, and for her daughters’ education. We plan to get married in August 2019, and today she mentioned Sin Sot for the first time (which is why I searched this topic!). We discuss money quite openly, and as I am on only 25k a year, the current arrangements of visiting Thailand so often and sending housekeeping, mean I don’t have a great deal of dosh to throw around. The paradox is that, when I retire, I will get more money each month than I do now, and as far as safeguarding her future is concerned, I have insurances for when I croak (and she is the only beneficiary). When she mentioned the Sin Sot, she did say that it will be returned to HER after the ceremony. Now don’t get me wrong – I love my fiancé to utter distraction, and we have a very real and loving relationship. Her family and friends have welcomed me unreservedly and we are a really happy bunch together. But I just feel that, as I am looking after her so much now, and making sure her future is secure, why would she think it’s necessary for me to struggle to find even more dosh?
    Reply

    • TheThailandLife says

      She has no parents, so sin sod is not relevant here. You don't need to have one. As for having a sin sod and her keeping the money, that is not applicable either. However, a present of gold, such as a bracelet or necklace (Thai gold) would be normal at the wedding. This is a bit cheeky really, especially considering you are already supporting her.Are you going to live out there once you are married?
      Reply

      • Phil says

        Many thanks for your kind reply :)I will be going to live in Thailand when I retire, and am already looking at types of houses, house prices, and the areas where we can live.I have given her a lot of jewellery – a gold necklace, 2 bracelets (a gold one and a silver one), a gold watch and not least a gold ring :)I have given both her daughters gold necklaces which they put away carefully and only wear for special occasions, and two watches each – one for everyday use and one for special. They are utterly beautiful young ladies - outside and inside – and call me Phaaw Mai (New Father).I am absolutely sure that she is not taking the Pee, but I suspect she likes showing off at work and with her family and friends that she has landed a western bloke who loves and cares for her. That is no problem for me :)Every time I go to Thailand I take small gifts for her family and friends. Thornton’s chocolates are the favourites! And we always have a big family and friends evening out during my stay. It is thoroughly enjoyable to relax with them, quaff a few Changs and have a good dinner. The atmosphere is always incredible :)In light of your remarks, maybe she wants to show off just a little bit more with the sin sod?
        Reply

  45. richard says

    I married a year ago to a 38 year old Isaan lady, not university educated. . I had known her 3 years when we married. I was 56 when we met so I was a lot older. Obviously I was cautious of how things may pan out. She had an 18 year old daughter (now married) and a 5 year old girl both from thai men. She has a small hairdressing salon in her village and earns around 8 to 10 k baht per month. I was asked by her English speaking teacher/ best friend to consider if I would pay 200,000 baht sin Sot. As she had never ever asked me for anything nor had her family I was lucky enough to see this article and searched other articles to guide my western minded thoughts in the right direction. My initial reaction was to say no. This was after having listened for many years to the jaded treat em mean bar flies who are so ready to offer you their knowledge . Believe me if you don't want to piss off your g/f, embarrass her and her family and also make yourself look mean then pay a minimal amount as I did. We agreed that I would pay the 2ook but I insisted that except in any emergency that was it....a one off payment. From now on I said that our earnings were for us as a family not her parents. ( they have a small shop and earnings enough.). They understood this and have been true to the agreement. This way they save face and feel good about their daughter, your wife feels happy and respects you more for it.,and you don't come across as a complete shit in your wife's village. .and you will get to reap the benefits in your relationship..
    Reply

  46. Dave says

    I've known my gf (27) for around 11 months, i am 25 years old guy and currently have no job, no academic career aswell. We've been planning to live together in the future in around 1 year, she would take 1 year to finish her getting her master's degree so her education you could say is better than mine. Of course at some point marriage comes up too and i do want to marry at someon point but not too fast and we talked before it but today is first time i hear about sin sod. I was kinda shocked but after reading this i kinda understand it, lets put it this way. But she was talking about 10 mill baht (300k) and i was laughing but she was like acting serious and told she will ask her mom if "only" 1 mill is enough. Now im not stupid i'd never pay 10 mill it's an extreme amount and eventhough i come from a wealthy country i am not wealthy myself (no job etc) and before i met her she could have gotten a rich guy but she didnt want him, so im sure she isnt with me for the money. But then again it makes me iffy to hear first 10 mill and even 1 mill is a lot for me but kinda reasonable hell i'd prefer to invest that into our future home than her mom (no dad).About her:-University education -27 -no kids, not married as far as i know -Old job was high position of famous car company (200 people leader) -family is middle classNow my question is 1 mill fair or maybe even not enough? i wouldnt question this number if she didnt mention the 10mill before which is just ridiculous obviously.And something else, how to make her not want to live with her mom in the future as i can not live like their culture with our parents in same home, i need to live with her and our future kids and that's it.Thanks for the advices
    Reply

    • TheThailandLife says

      If her family is middle class and she is doing a masters degree then 1 million Baht would be quite normal. They most likely will not be happy about her marrying a foreigner, though attitudes have softened in recent years.Be prepared for some opposition when they find out you aren't working and are not as wealthy as she is. In Thailand the idea is that you marry up, not down.10m Baht is just silly and, if she is going to marry into another culture then she will have to accept she can't have it all her own way.That said, if they are middle class they won't keep the money anyway; it will be given back to you.I wouldn't worry about living with the parents. They will expect you to buy a nice house to live in with their daughter, and a car too :)Marrying a middle class woman in Thailand can bring bigger headaches than marrying a woking class girl, believe me.
      Reply

      • Dave says

        Thank you yes, we just talked more and she wants to share the sin sod anyway, im very relieved about that. And 1 mill is fine for me like this.I say live together with her mom as she stated thats her dream she wants to bring her later too once we have established a home, which i disagree strongly and fighted over it, now we’ve decided to let this decision discuss later once we reach the point of living together but mainly she knows i wont live with her mom together. I know i do sound mean as she lost her dad early and mom is not all she has got but she’s very close to her and i understand her points but with her having around is 0 privacy and definately how i imagined my life once i live with her together.Nonetheless i dont wanna lose her as i love her deeply and thus maybe advise how to solve this in a good way
        Reply

  47. Andy says

    I'm currently due to marry my thai girlfriend . We have a daughter together an Think this helps showing your commitment . I'm going to buy 2 baht gold an 100000 baht . That's all I can afford . I understand cultures , but western culture is that the girls parents help out with wedding cost . That won't be happening as they don't have much to start with . I don't believe this will be the last time I help out with money . Don't see why you'd start married life of skint by giving all your money away . Your going to need about £2000 for a wedding visa to get her back home with you aswell . All money money .
    Reply

    • TheThailandLife says

      I agree. This seems reasonable. As you say, in the UK the brides usually pick up some of the wedding cost, which won't happen there. Contribute what you can afford to. Better to save money than splash it on one day of celebration.
      Reply

      • Dave says

        Thank you yes, we just talked more and she wants to share the sin sod anyway, im very relieved about that. And 1 mill is fine for me like this.I say live together with her mom as she stated thats her dream she wants to bring her later too once we have established a home, which i disagree strongly and fighted over it, now we've decided to let this decision discuss later once we reach the point of living together but mainly she knows i wont live with her mom together. I know i do sound mean as she lost her dad early and mom is not all she has got but she's very close to her and i understand her points but with her having around is 0 privacy and definately how i imagined my life once i live with her together.Nonetheless i dont wanna lose her as i love her deeply and thus maybe advise how to solve this in a good way
        Reply

  48. Rondo says

    Hello, I would first like to thank everyone for their comments on this post and for the post itself. I have recently started talking to a 36 year old lady from the Isan region. She is much different then I expected of any woman from Thailand but, with that said she shares the same common thread, the same typical....American/ Foreigner has more money and can give her a better life then the one she currently has. She has this innocent quality about her. Very attentive, caring, big -hearted, lives and wants to provide for her parents (oldest child/ Daughter). She genuinely seems to care about me (here comes the "but"), but when it comes to her thoughts on money related matters, I guess like a lot of Americans who have dealt with the greedy nature of American women, I'm a bit suspicious. She has made me aware of Sin Sod from the very first week I met her and suggested I read about Thai customs, which I found as an endearing quality, she was upfront with me. As of lately though I am again feeling a little out of sorts. Again She is 36 but gorgeous, she is divorced from a Thai man and her last relationship before me was with an Englishman who I'd assume she met in Udon Thani. She has no kids, no college education and comes from a farming family. She works her butt off (basically 3 jobs at a market, as a Nanny and her families farm), takes care of everything for her parents, plus takes care of her Nephew and his College education. She just told me if I want her to come to the US with me, I would have to commit to taking care of her family financially approximately 25000 baht a month. I understand what she does and means to her family and I obviously know if she's in the States with me she wouldn't be working at first or for sometime. I again, obviously wouldn't want her family to suffer in her absence. What other then helping as she asks could I do? A Sin Sod amount has not been discussed at all and now she is asking for financial support so she can cut back a bit and not have to work so hard? Anyone deal with a similar situation? Any advice? I'm concerned, feel like I could be getting scammed but that could be my suspicious nature talking. She genuinely doesn't seem like that type to me hence my confusion.
    Reply

    • TheThailandLife says

      Hi Rondo,I'd be pretty cautious about a situation where the conversation is so heavily focused on finances in the early stages. 25k a month is a lot of money. I know university graduates on that much working in good jobs in Bangkok. I don't know her but I think most would agree with me that this sounds very transactional, and no doubt it won't stop at 25k a month. It is not a normal thing to do to mention sin sod in the early stages of dating.I think the old rule applies here: don't do anything you wouldn't consider doing if you were dating in the US. You wouldn't be talking about monthly stipends, marriage dowry, moving in together and this sort of stuff so early on. Alarm bells started ringing when you wrote: and now she is asking for financial support so she can cut back a bit and not have to work so hard?One concern I would have is that this seems to imply that if she moved to the US she would not intend to work. Surely, with no children, and being young, she would work and be able to send that 25k home to her family herself? After all, I assume you'd be providing accommodation, paying bills and providing for her in other ways?Go cautiously.
      Reply

    • Chris says

      You are being played. BIG TIME. Customs be damned. I have a Thai girlfriend of 5 years who is gorgeous and works a job in Bangkok (Lad Prao by Central) as a life insurance broker for Liberty Mutual [more info than is necessary, I know, but want to establish she is real and works a job to support herself even I never were in the picture]. She has NEVER once ever asked me for money. She has NEVER IMPLIED I should give her money. She has stated a number of times that she is NOT IMPRESSED with farang money who she knows works well on the 'country-side' girls who know how to 'work it.' I know and have met both her Mom, Dad, and extended family and friends. I know them independently and can visit them on my own if I wanted to. For this reason in the beginning of dating a girl in Thailand, I avoided anyone who was either not ALREADY working in the city or not ALREADY college educated that I could go to the school registrar and verify they did in fact graduate from there [you would be surprised how many say they have, and, in fact, do not]. Believe it or not, and this is going to make me look bad I know, I have NEVER heard of SIN SOD/SIN SOT prior to seeing this article. This is from a guy who has been in Thailand 8 times in the last 5 years for 4-6 weeks at a time having gone everywhere in the country. Maybe I am duh. Maybe my girl is cheating on me when I am not around. Maybe I have no idea what I am talking about. What I do know, is my gut instinct has never second guessed her. Times in the past of surprising her for New Years (both calendar and Songkran) have never showed up something fishy or that she was not where she said she was. She did NOT know I was coming [would tell her I did not know if I could get time off from work, which was true; I was not playing games with her, but I used the surprise opportunities to do some snooping as I was curious what she was up to on holidays when I was not around].Point is, she is the one for me. These kind of women are out there, but they are NOT any easier to find than in your own country. Get off your butt and really put some hard effort into not just settling with the first piece of tail that makes things feel all right and then talks money. That is what Go Go bars are for. Seriously, I agree with the article author, and at 25,000BT per month, you can have a new gik [=temp gf for fun/companionship/sex/etc] every 2-3 days/month who is not a street girl.As an aside, case in point, true story, etc.....we met some mutual friends of my girlfriend that accompanied us to a nice rooftop club atop the Sofitel Hotel in central downtown Bangkok overlooking Lumpini Park (kind of like the Central Park of New York, but for Bangkok [BKK]). I give the specifics on this to establish these are not country girls, but university educated [verified] working girls. One of the girls who came along asked my girlfriend if I had any friends I could introduce her to. I did, and I made the introduction over my phone live via Skype with college mate of mine. My long-time friend from college was smitten. He was doing video chat with her everyday. She thanked me for setting her up. I said 'cool.' My girlfriend shrugged her shoulders at me knowing something I didn't, but when I pressed her, she told me to wait and see... That she did not want to say anything bad about the situation. I was like hmm, but I did not say anything to my friend who is a grown-up and can take care of himself. Long story short, he thought she was hot, attentive, etc. Within three weeks, things soured. Friend comes back to tell me she was saying that she needed him to prove he was 'serious' in that she needed him to send her money to 'take care of my parents if I go out with you.' I told my gf who let out a big frowning sigh, and said to tell my friend to block her. I was like wtf is going on? My gf basically had told this female acquaintance I hooked my friend up with to lay off the money talk until she at least met him in person (he was in the USA at the time, and had never been to Thailand). Apparently, she did not listen. In the end, my friend did block her, she tried to contact me, my gf took my phone and blocked her, and my gf did the same on her phone. She then warned my friend to avoid any further contact with her which he took her advice and did. She said, some girls do not deserve nice guys. My friend is loaded [owns two apartment complexes]. My gf knew it and regretted chatting about it with this acquaintance, but she said the only way this girl deserves him is to be nice and let things play out. In the end, this girl really lost out big because my friend would have definitely flown out to meet her and moved things forward in natural order. So the take home lesson, both from my experience and from my friend's experience, avoid ANY girl like the plague who talks about money. As a funny billboard you can google says, 'all women have vaginas, find one with a brain.'Now, in all fairness, even though my gf has NEVER asked me for money, I got her covered to the hilt; BUT, it did not start until I CHOSE TO DO SO after a year of dating and seeing her three times in Thailand. Again, never once did she ever ask or hint at me. When we went out together, I did take care of everything from meals, places to stay, etc. I felt like a rock star with her, and never once did she ask for money. If anything, she raided my phone all the time demanding my passwords to see if I was talking to other girls. Having a hot girl who was jealous on you was not something I was used to, but it was a good problem [for me, at least] to have. Why? Cause she kicks the crap of ANYTHING I could ever get back in the States [never married, no kids, age 28, not a bar girl, educated, porn star behind closed doors, fiercely loyal and demands same, does not play games with your heart]. This is why I am hooked on her. She practices what she preaches and I would kill myself if I lost her. I can say with EXTREME PREJUDICE, avoid Thai women who talk money and ANY like them [their friends, etc]. Thailand has MANY good women who are educated and WOULD NEVER lean on you or your money. The educated city girls even scoff at the farang guys who think that any Thai woman will throw themselves at their feet merely by assuming all Thai women want a marriage visa to another country. Trust me, rich chics of ANY country have NO INCENTIVE to leave their country if the ENDS are meeting ALL ON THEIR OWN. If they do ask you for money, and you fall for it, you DESERVE every bad thing that ever happens to you from that point on. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED. I cannot stress this enough. WALK AWAY from ANY GIRL who talks to you about money. You should be the only one to initiate or continue financial arrangements with NO STRINGS ATTACHED. Punani with money attached to it is called PROSTITUTION. If you are going to go that route, go to the GoGo bars and have your pick of the litter and be on with it. BUT....if you come to really love a winner of a woman, then you will do take care of finances naturally because you want to take care of your woman, and they, like my girl, will never have to ask. Just my .02 cents.
      Reply

  50. sean siu says

    hi there im sean im a british born chinese im currently living in london now planning to get married to a thai woman in dec 2017 she is asking for 1,000,000.00 barth plus her brother wants 6 barth of gold she been married before she has a 14 year old son also she does not have any parents she not educated but she from the countryside ,should i have the right not to pay the sin sod any thing and just go ahead with the wedding ???? is it possible to reason with these thais with out them losing face if im not willing to pay for the sin sod ?????
    Reply

    • TheThailandLife says

      Tell her brother to take a running jump! What has he got to do with it? Brothers get nothing. Is the plan for them to keep this money or just show it and give it back, or keep part of it? This is a silly amount of money. If it was me, I'd look to offer 100-150k as a gift (sin sod) to the parents, and spend 50-100k on the wedding/part. This would mean you could get married for not more than £5k GBP. I base this on the fact in the UK a wedding is not going to be less than £15k for 50 guests in a hotel; in Thailand costs are about 1/3 of the UK, so £5k GBP would be reasonable.
      Reply

      • Alpha says

        Never pay anything for a wife. Period. It's 2018. Women have their freedom. They have their equality. Even in Thailand. They can work the same jobs men can work. They can earn as much, if not more than a man can. And they can leave a man if they are not happy in the relationship. Therefore, the dynamics of marriage have changed. The woman's role has changed, and thus should the man's 'obligations'.Stop transferring your wealth for [misogynistic word removed]. She's not that good. Always ask yourself if she's willing to do the same for you. If she's making money and does not pay for you, she's not worth it.Is what I'm saying misogynistic? NO. A misogynist hates women. Refusing to transfer your wealth to someone does not make you misogynistic. It makes you smart.If you want to be an idiot to demonstrate your 'love' with no guarantee that you'll have her love, go ahead. If you want to be her exclusive paying client while she gives her love freely to her own family, while she gives nothing to you or your family, go ahead. You're a fool.Do not pay for someone's company. Unless you are an idiot.If you think I am being selfish or inconsiderate...ask yourself. How different am I to this woman you love so much that she needs a payment from you and gives nothing in return?Stop transferring your money for [misogynistic word removed]. FOR ANY REASON. Who cares what her culture says. Grow a pair and tell the way it is for her to be with you, and tell her to take a hike if she can't accept your terms. After all, if the Sin Sod is very important to her, she will leave you if you if you can't pay. Which means SHE DOES NOT LOVE YOU.Wake up!
        Reply

    • Kytriya says

      Run! I smell scam because 1. She has no parents. Thus, Sin Sod money is not used for them.2. She was married before, which in Thai culture already declares a lesser amount.3. Her brother is asking for money - gold. This was never apart of the custom that I can find anywhere. I can't remember what a Thai exchange student told me long ago.4. She has a child from another man's seed, which in Thai culture also says that less money should be given. All this says that her wanting so much money is a scam! I would run and never look back. I wonder what happened to her first husband and why her parents are dead.OTOH, I don't know how rich you are. And, I can see how brother might be taking care of his future because no parents. Is he basing this on the "I am now the head of the household, so I became the parents and thus I should get money" type of thinking? Is this even a thing in Thailand? If so, I can grace it a little more, but the amount is still way too high.Also I can see how she might be somewhat scared about her future because she has a 14 yr old and no husband. I don't know if her ex left her with a lot of debt or not.I used to go to school with a Thai Exchange student way back in the day. I can't remember what she said about siblings in the case of parents dying prematurely. Even so, this amount seems way too high! 1 million baht plus gold says that you are a very wealthy man and they know it. Unrealistic amount for the reasons I stated.
      Reply

      • sean siu says

        hi kytriyathanks for your reply i have learn a lot form the points you pointed out i would like to tell you how i met her . i was introduced by casual dressed taxi guys, who ever walk by them they always want (foreigners)to them a tour around floating market which at the of place they take them to they will earn commission from the event verdes.
        Reply

  51. Mark says

    Hi I do have a Thai girlfriend, we are considering marriage. She is 34, has one child, divorced some high school education and staying current with her parents in a village. I would not say that they are well off.How much Sin Sod should I be paying?
    Reply

    • TheThailandLife says

      Hi Mark, I recommend reading through past comments as this has been covered quite extensively. I don't like to a price on different situations, as it's uncomfortable. But as you'll read there are many unreasonable demands being made.- Sin sod should be decided between your parents and your wife's parents. - Culturally, it should reflect your wife's family status, and her status within society: wealth, education, kids/previous marriages, etc. - Some families don't want sin sod. Some women don't want sin sod. - Sometimes sin sod is just for show at the wedding as part of tradition, and other times it is kept (tends to be kept if the family is not well off). - Sometimes part of it is kept and part given back. - Ideally it should be invested in a home/land/other for the couple (to be half owned by the wife) or kept for the daughter in savings incase you divorce. Or used to make improvements to the current family situation, of which the daughter can benefit.
      Reply

  52. Nomch Taidji says

    After reading all your comments it is possible to think that the Thai people make daughters just to make money... which means... their daughters never receive love from the parents as they will be sold in the future to their husbands???In Thailand everyone is sold... even their daughters... WTF???If I had a Thai girlfriend I will never marry... 10 million baht is not a real problem for me but why I shall pay that money??? The daughter feeds her parents, you say... But... if parents cannot afford their own expenses after marriage of their daughters why they make kids? In any country of the world no one asks money from their sons-of-laws... Some Arab countries do that just because they are rude and barbarians... But never, never and never here in Mongolia... in our country... lol
    Reply

  53. Simon says

    I have a Thai girlfriend been seeing each other for some time now we have an age gap as I am 40 now but look much younger than my age she is 23 we have looked at getting married but when asked how much sin sod to marry her the mother is asking 1 million Thai baht and 5 gold bar, she has no kids went to international college and very beautiful is this to much to pay and should we try to get the parents price down as I am western man. Before anyone comments about are age difference I still look 26/27 most people say. More to the point would like to know what to do?
    Reply

    • TheThailandLife says

      Hi Simon,A couple of points:1. The gold is for your wife, so if she's happy to have 1 or 2 Baht of gold instead then that would significantly reduce the cost for you - after all this is simply a wedding gift from you to her.2. Sin sod of this amount is usually for show. It would be unusual for the family to wish to keep this, particularly if they are a middle class family who don't need it. Even a poorer family that had struggled to put their child through a good eduction might show this amount but would return the majority of it. So that would be my first question - do they expect to keep it?3. International education suggests that they are not poor, so I suspect the money would be returned to you for future investment in either a home or savings account. Perhaps you might offer some of it as a gift to pay for a holiday for them or something like that - it's down to you.
      Reply

      • Simon says

        My girlfriend is from buriram and many girl have all said from there the 1 million sin sod would be kept by the parents as a gift to them , plus her parents want money just to meet them not a lot but still 25,000 baht just for meeting them so I do think maybe things are changing where parents are starting to want more for there daughters
        Reply

    • Russell says

      We as farang have to start standing up for our selfs , love is love and money for love is well not so good hahaha Iam making a stand and saying no sin sod . It's not our way , we bring so much to the table here , take it or leave it ...... hansom man like me will get snapped up by some one else ... be quick girl
      Reply

  54. Mother Lisa says

    My 22 year old son who still lives at home and makes minimum wage here in United States has fallen in love with a 21 year old Thai girl, an only child, who is here working at the same bar in a foreign exchange work program. Her dad is a government official and her mom an accountant. She tells my son her parents would want 1,000,000 baht for her. My son can't even save money for an apartment for himself! How in the world would he pay that kind of money? They would be married and live in the US. Now he's trying to save money just to go to Thailand because she says he MUST ask his parents face-to-face if he can marry her. What the heck? 22 year old men in the US don't have that kind of money!
    Reply

    • TheThailandLife says

      Hey Lisa,it might sound a lot, but it depends on her social status. If she has been educated in a private/international school, speaks English and is from a middle class or wealthy family, it is unlikely her family would have a sin sod of less than that amount. It doesn't mean they would keep the money, but rather show it at the wedding - it is representational more than anything.In past times, such women would usually marry a Thai man from a family of similar status. However, things have changed massively over the last 10 years and more young, educated women from well-to-do families are marrying foreign men of a similar age because they are modern women of the world: They are into western fashion, music, travel etc., and do not want to be bound to the tradition of having to marry who their parents want them to; though sadly many end up having to.BTW, I'm assuming that her family are middle class, considering their jobs.It is true that tradition dictates he ask her parents, but you also have a say in this, because tradition also dictates that his parents agree too and that a meeting to discuss marriage is between the two families. So you should go to Thailand too, to see if you think her family is suitable.It should not all be one-sided. You can then voice your opposition over her proposed sin sod amount. You can also discuss your own culture and how you think things should be done. If two people from different cultures marry there should be a compromise and the traditions of both parties appropriated.You are absolutely right though; what 22-year-old has that sort of money hanging around. Even if he did, I would stipulate that if they are to marry the money is simply shown at the wedding and not kept by the parents - I'm assuming they don't need it. The money would be better spent on a deposit for a property, or saved for their future.Personally I think they are way too young. Why the rush? Chill out, enjoy the relationship...God knows these things rarely last at that age anyway. And I'm quite sure if he visited Thailand he'd fall in love with a number of 21-year-old girls!
      Reply

      • Santi says

        I am a 44y/o male American raised in direct contact with an American/Thai family when young and have been traveling Thailand myself for more than 15 years now. I can speak and understand the language and have studied the culture both personally and reading books of Thai sociology(I love so much about Thai culture).And... yeah... too young. Your son has no idea what he's getting into at that age. Also to do it without even visiting Thailand and getting to know the culture would not be wise in any case. In Thai language the phrase "som-nom-na" could be used here. It basically translates into English phrases such as "they got what they deserved," like a negative outcome that was simply avoidable.I hate to stereotype too much on either end but a 22 year old American boy that is usually interested in video games and his car more than saving to buy a home would generally be no match for the Thai raised 21 year old female with a cunning mind for "success."On a completely different note from that logic... The Thai parents may also realize the innocent and youthful spirit of your son's heart, as well as appreciate and respect his loving emotion for their daughter but these numbers and demands that are expected to NOT be met by your son may simply be easier and more polite than saying "No."I would encourage the relationship emphasizing they take their sweet time and enjoy each other while studying the ways of a new culture. If they don't last long, well then, that's that. But if they truly do fall in love and last the grueling test of time I can promise she will be a wonderful addition to your family. An honest hearted respectful Thai family is a joy to know... and be a part of.Well, good luck. Or as we say in Thai... "Chawk-dee, krup."
        Reply

  55. Erik says

    Why would anyone want to marry a woman who isn't an academic, have her own job and of course lives in her own condo in central Bangkok?This is the girl I'm marrying in about 6 month and I have said I will not pay 1 bath in sinsod. However for show I can put up 100.000 bath and she have said her mom will give it all back to me after. And I have said that if her mom dont give it back I will never trust her again and she will have no contact with our future kids.And I will also pay for 50% of the wedding dinner for about 200 guests and we are counting it will be about 1200 bath/guest so about 240.000 bath. And this me and my future wife will split on paying (not her mother/stepdad) and the money we make from this/surplus we will pay our honeymoon with.And I have also stated that if she doesnt work and make her own money and give to our household we dont even need to marry and can just live together and get kids together anyway. Because that is what we do in Sweden and I dont care about loosing face or anything that stupid.So everyone do as I do and drive a hard bargain all the time. Maybe even do a pre nup and write in that her savings or appartment and welth will be payed to the party that is unfathfull if it happens.
    Reply

    • Chris says

      Cannot agree enough, but leaving out the hard-ass attitude that would at least account for differences in custom. On the prenuptial agreement, I have actually looked into this. I cannot speak to other countries, but if you are from the USA, the only way these hold up in court is a) the agreement is in both languages so a judge does not cite unjust enrichment [common and successful tactic to nullify prenup] based on one party 'never having understood what they were signing,' b) notarized at the US Embassy in downtown Bangkok using her Thai National ID card and your US Passport c) verified that she is NOT in fact married ALREADY in Thailand [prenups not valid for those who are, in fact, married, but 'oops' they 'forgot' to tell you that they were or never got divorced]. None of this matters until you are back in the states and your hot Thai girlfriend, now soon to be ex-wife who is already with provisional 10 year Green card is kicking your ass in divorce court because the court found you to be 'malicious' or 'failed to exercise due diligence.' All this I came to know as I have good friend who is Wills/Estates/Divorce attorney who said international prenups hold about as much water as a wet sponge, that is they do and they don't depending on how much they get squeezed in court in the USA. In Thailand, a male-dominated society, prenups are moot. Women are screwed if they get divorced. In USA, the phraseology 'get a pre-nup' is thrown around like just going down to the liquor store for a pack of smokes. It is NOT that simple, and the bloke who casually thinks it will be 'all right' if it ever came to that will find his very cunning Thai soon-to-be-ex-wife is, in fact, going to take half and then-some of what he has if the divorce is initiated in the USA that occurs after being married at least 2 years (minimum time for renewal of probationary Green Card to provisional 10 year Green Card). The woman is not stupid. She will know to bide her time and then let you have it when you think you got it covered. Or....avoid all this mess. Marry for love. Marry once. Be done with it or for pete's sake...STAY SINGLE AND NEVER GET MARRIED ON PAPER (good luck trying to get her over to the states unless she has her own job and can get a tourist visa if she is more well-to-do).
      Reply

  56. Clive says

    Hi I have been following your blog with great interest I asked my Thai GF whom I have known for 6 months How much Dowery her parents would like so we can get married She is divorced and with one child of 16 She asked her parents and they replied 500 baht. I get on really well with them and talk almost daily via live link on internet phone. My question is; was that meant as a joke or was it a serious answer and do you think I should bother getting married or just stay as BF GF ?
    Reply

  57. Rich says

    Hi great blog. I have a question. But this sin sod issue is more to single mom. I recently got to know a thai lady (26 years old, with a daughter 8years old) from Mae Sot. She is very reluctant to be with me because of her sad past . SHe said she the daughter is born out of wedlock.She is very responsible mom to her daughter and daughter to her dad. Two questions :a) You mentioned that ' if your girlfriend has kids, tradition dictates that you should pay less. This stems from the age-old thinking that she is tainted in some way, already given to another man, so to speak. You will become responsible for another man’s seed, and for that you shouldn’t be paying for the privilege. 'Is it really hard for her to marry another thai men / farang / asian men according to thai culture as in the thai society she will not be accepted easily ? I love her and I told her I dont mind being a good daddy for her.b) and so we can pay less. 100k baht is good ? I always think thats really ssufficient.She is very different from all the thai women / ladies I know. She is very reluctant to go into relationship and she needs time.Whats your advice ?Thanks.
    Reply

    • TheThailandLife says

      Despite what the old tradition says, the reality is that you should do what is right for you. Should a woman be looked down upon for having a child out of wedlock, or being a single mum? Absolutely not. Should she be considered a "lesser woman" and deserve less than any other woman? Absolutely not.What matters, for all of us, is how we treat others; the kindness and compassion we show. What matters is that we work hard for our children and teach them to become better people than we are.As I have said before, I don't like to tell people what sin sod they should pay. I don't like this tradition as much as the next foreigner (it's primarily about "face" and status) but if we are marrying into this culture we must accept that this is going to be a part of the marriage – for most of us anyway.She sounds like a good person. Get to know her. Take your time. Give her the time she needs. If and when the idea of marriage should arise, I'm sure 100-200k will be fine.
      Reply

      • Peter S Whitton says

        Hi, while I agree with all you have said about the worth of women I do not agree with your conclusion that 100-200K is fine. I have a daughter and I would consider myself a disgrace financially crippling her future husband. One can talk endlessly about respecting tradition but how antiquated does a 'tradition' have to be before you let it go.
        Reply

        • TheThailandLife says

          That's Baht though. So around 1,900 GBP. The average poor working class Thai marriage wouldn't have a sin sod of less than 50k these days. Of course I agree that no one should ever pay more than they can afford, unless the money is being returned.
          Reply

    • Where’s Wally says

      Hi. My reply is -, currently faced with similar situation - and after being so very hopeful of the ideal result am now beginning the process of facing up to accepting that there are too many red flags appearing and that my dream is all but over.... sad? For the best? It is what it is....Pa. her mum has never smiled at me and barely acknowledges me - which I find insulting and very suspect....
      Reply

  58. Rose says

    Hi,I am THAI and my boyfriend is American. We are both graduated from universities and we are Catholic too. I tried to explain him about Sin Sod but he totally disagreed. Thank you for writing this article as I will send it to him. Honestly, My mom an I don't mind about Sin Sod, But I want him to show something about his caring. We have contacted for 4-5 years but we don't live together (he lives in USA and I live in BKK). We often talked on FaceTime but I accepted it s difficult to have this long distance relationship.So I don't really know what his decision will be.
    Reply

  59. Andrew says

    Does the same sin sod apply to marry a Cambodian woman who already has a child not of my own. I mean are the customary laws the same? I been searching te internet for information and your site is the closest I've got.
    Reply

  60. Pathama says

    I'm Thai girl but my bf's an American. And he's living in America. We're dating as LDR (Long Distance Relationship). Earlier before my bf will fall asleep While on the phone. I talked with him about the Sin Sod. I said if we're gonna get married as Thai culture you'll have to pay Sin Sod you my parents just as much as they'll asking for. Then he asked how much could it be. I was like 100,000Thb-...? He was like wtf that's so much i can't pay for that. But well i never want his money And all i want is to spend the rest of my life with him. I've been thinking about getting marriage as his culture so he no need to worry about the Sin Sod. I hope my family will understand me. My bf he's not a rich guy. I understand all his situations. Not all of us would ask for money.
    Reply

    • Professor says

      To me this is very simple. You say you love him and not his money. And he's not interested in paying for a wife. Understandably so. The days when men bought wives are over and someone needs to inform the Thai families who cling to this (and other idiotic) traditions. No offense but there are idiotic traditions in every society. The Thais need to understand theirs too rather than push it on to their children and non Thais who have no reason to adopt stupidity.Let me ask you this way. If your boyfriend made you do something for his family and told you it was tradition. Something that went against your tradition. Would you be willing to do it? Say for example, he said his family refuses to pay a sin sod because it's against their morals?If you love him. Tell your parents to step aside. If it's too difficult then let him go. If it's too difficult then you don't love him. You want to spend your life with him and presumably start a family with him right? Then your relationship with him should be your priority.
      Reply

  61. Rod Poirer says

    My Thai girlfriend's (whom I've being dating 6 months) mother just found out that we were having sex. She first (the mother) demanded that I start paying her 20,000 baht a month or she would break the relationship up even though she knows her daughter is deeply in love with me as I am with her. She also told me that I needed to marry her daughter in 1 month or she would break the relationship up.I told her I could not pay that amount but would start paying 13000 baht per month to help the daughter who is studying her MB.A couple of days later and the mother is now demanded that I pay all her debt about 650,000 Baht as a guarantee that I would marry her daughter (because she says she does not trust that I will marry her daughter and it's her guarantee). She told me If I did not pay then she would break the relationship. I asked her if this was a sin sod and she said no, and it would be up to me if I wanted to pay a sin son when I married her daughter in 8 months.I had told her that I would marry her daughter in about 8 months and that right now I could not afford the 650,000 baht debt payment, but would work something (thinking pay it off over 8 months) The mother said a big NO! and told me that in 8 months the price would be 1 to 2 million Baht. I told her that I needed time,so she grabbed her crying daughter and walked away telling me my relationship was over with her daughter.The mother is a very abusive women personality wise. I've seen her screaming at her daughter for over an hour over something trivial. The mother told me moths ago she hates all falangs.I'm my Thai girlfriends second relationship, the first (with a Thai guy) was broken up by the mother 2 years ago. She has no siblings or close relatives other than the mother.Thinking about the demands from the mother? I'm not sure her motives are just to have me pay her debt, then tell me to go FO If I find away to pay the money now..... Question: Is there a Thai marriage contract if I pay this amount? If she breaks the relationship after I pay then would she have to give the money back?I feel something is up? because on the one hand she says (the mother) marry now (in less than 1 month) and if I want to wait for about 8 months as I told her, and make installments then she said no. The mother, as I just mentioned, told me it was over at the end of the conversation because I could not meet her demands.Any advice or suggestions to help would be appreciated.Thanks!
    Reply

    • TheThailandLife says

      Honestly, walk away. Even if you successfully marry your GF your entire life will be ruined by your mother in law. Your MIL will manipulate her daughter for the remainder of her life, using the "respect and do everything your parents tell you" cultural card whenever she wants money. Your GF will never be happy unless she tells her to shove it and turns her back on her for good, which she most likely won't. It's a sad situation that I've seen so many times. Your GF will sacrifice her happiness, even in a marriage to you, to "make her mother happy".
      Reply

    • Peter S Whitton says

      Unfortunately you may have to bite the bullet and give your fiancee an ultimatum as situations like this are unlikely to go away. Sadly many Thai people see 'foreigners' as all having won the lottery. I suspect the mother will give you a non stop hard time and unless her daughter is prepared to choose you over outmoded tradition you may find yourself being milked for cash on and on.
      Reply

  63. Jacek says

    My fiancee is 34 Thai woman. She has 2 daughters. She spoke with parents about Sin Sod. They told 999999 baht in cash and 65000 baht in gold. And she said No. 9 it is a sacred number. I know that's to much but I don't want her family will lost face. I thinking to say : On grounds of tradition I shouldn’t be paying at all because you has been married before and you has kids. However, to show my respect, I offer 100,000 - 200,000 baht
    Reply

  64. Tom says

    Hi I have a Thai friend lately I have been asking her about sin sod and how much I would need to pay just incase it ever come to marriage. Just want to want to know what I would be getting my self into. She is 38 years old and has 2 sons, she is from sangkha by surin. She said that the cost off sinsod should be 500,000 Thai baht if think that is well to much after reading all your information. She is not high school educated iver. Can anyone tell me what I should pay or even if I should at all but would want to fall out with her family ??
    Reply

    • TheThailandLife says

      If you want to marry her then at least you know where you stand. I'd just consider what you could afford to pay without rocking your financial boat, so to speak, and say you wouldn't pay more than that. Factor it into the wedding cost. If you had a cheap wedding then it might not impact much if you pay 100-200k.
      Reply

        • TheThailandLife says

          2 sons could be a lot to take on, but we don't know the situation so let's not judge. What is wrong with 38? She is still a young woman. I'm 38 and my wife is 37. There is only 6 months between us and we still act like we're 20-somethings :)
          Reply

          • Long Term Thai Guy says

            Two sons to take on, the Family as well. In reality, no Sin Sod should be paid at all apart from the marriage.500K is just in my views, treating you like a buffalo. Maybe just a ring and half a baht of gold for a necklace. I am not trying to be harsh here, but you are the one in control. If she did not fit into your ideas now, I would be very cautious. I do hope that it works out, but that 500K to me is an enormous' red flag'.If she was only 28, no children, no marriage to another Thai guy/boyfriend, was educated, I can say yes, 500K upwards can be paid. In my village, no Thai man would touch her, and if he did, no Sin Sod would get paid, and in most cases, her family would be euphoric he took her off their hands.Just think carefully. If she does not agree now, later on in married life, and Thai married life is very different, you are going to have issues.500K is too much
            Reply

            • Rich says

              Hi Long Term Thai Guy,If a thai lady is 26 and has a daughter 8 years old from Mae Sot. Will any thai guy wants her ? Village or city.I live in Thailand for 1 year max. I am still learning about thai culure alhough I have an ex thai girl 3 years. They always confuse me because of smile and keeping it to themselves. Sorry I dont mean to offend you.
              Reply

              • TheThailandLife says

                Would it make a difference if nowhere else wants to marry her? You see beyond the fact that she had a child at a young age and that she is not rich, right? You see her for the person she is, not the status she has, right?
                Reply

  65. Ian says

    I am always amazed that the presumption is a western man should or has to adopt thai culture. Not so, if the thai lady wants thai culture to be respected she should engage with a Thai man (and accept the issues that may go with it). If they want to be with a western man, for what ever reason, there should be mutual respect and acceptance. The matter of the brides family paying for the wedding is naturally at the top of ones list.I have no problem with thai culture, but it is not my culture. There needs to be a clearing of the air, so to speak, on these matters and a frank exchange of the fact and reality.If the lasy wants Sin Sod, she needs a thai man. If she wants a western man she (and more importantly her family who will always try to manipulate and influence her) needs to show respect for western culture.Fairs fair.
    Reply

    • TheThailandLife says

      I've never presumed that, though the presumption I usually hear is the other way around. Most foreign men getting into relationships with Thai women rush in without considering the cultural implications of what will be around the corner. You are right: there should be a clearing of the air early on, so both sides know where they stand. It really isn't that difficult to meet half way and have a wedding that encompasses both.
      Reply

    • Koen says

      Ian... you have a veery good point! Chosing and living with a Thai lady doesn't mean you have to forget all about where you yourself come from. And she also has to respect your culture. Like you say "it is not my culture"... there is nothing wrong saying that and asking (claiming) your own culture also, equally.I am in the same position. thank you for your view. It helps me to hold on to the same ideas.
      Reply

      • TheThailandLife says

        Absolutely, but this is a given. In my experience the wives/gfs of foreign nationals are very accepting of their partner's culture. My wife even did a bit of Morris Dancing at the fair in a town in the UK :)
        Reply

  66. Sebie says

    Hello,I am a 28 year old foreign young man and been dating a 20 year old ladyboy for almost 2 years now, which lives in Phuket. Please, note that I don't live in Thailand, but stayed there multiple times with her (half expat, you know, staying until my visa runs out and such).Anyhow, I am considering marrying her, therefore i have been looking at how to marry her (making it legal/recognised in both our countries).Can I marry a ladyboy? it is recognised where I live in Europe, but what about Thailand Do you know if i have to pay a Sin Sod to her family?I'm also lost when it comes to expat'ing(?) to Thailand to live with her, because I've been reading some conflicting things hehe I am Web Developper and own my own (small) web agency, would it qualify to (find) work in thailand or thai clients? what about visa wise?Thanks in advanceSebie
    Reply

    • TheThailandLife says

      Hi Sebie, I'm sorry to say that Thai law does not recognize same-sex marriages, civil unions or domestic partnerships. You would not be able to legally marry your partner in Thailand. You could have a traditional blessing, but marriage is not permitted by law. An alternative would be to marry in your home country, but this would still not be recognised in Thailand. In answer to your visa query, please see my visa post here: https://www.thethailandlife.com/thai-visa-requirements
      Reply

  67. Alex says

    Need opinions..my gf me hints me recently of wanting ring. I know she likes pure gold ring..my thoughts are if it's to propose should it be gold diamond ring? Or wedding band? Also.. My girlfriend has 2 kids from earlier relationship (no official marriage)..what is rightfully her family can expect from me. Part of money I'm giving her monthly goes to her mom for her expenses.
    Reply

    • TheThailandLife says

      I would suggest asking her what kind of ring she likes. The majority of rural-based Thais I have met aren't fussed about diamonds and prefer straight 22 ct gold, but the younger generation in the city tend to be more in tune with global trends and the "diamond bling" culture. Do consider that engagement rings aren't commonplace among Thais. Engagement gifts, yes, but not necessarily rings; this is generally a western tradition. You should read this post on marriage and engagement: https://www.thethailandlife.com/thai-wedding-ceremony .In terms of what her family should expect from you: They should rightfully expect a husband who will treat their daughter with respect and do his best to take care his family. This doesn't mean your wife's extended family. It means you, your wife, your children and, if you decide to take them on, her children from previous relationship(s).
      Reply

      • Alex says

        Sometimes it's hard even for her, the mother shows face everytime she gives any less than 10k..that's alot for an old lady who has nothing to pay for. My gf tries to save money whenever possible for future, but I don't understand why does Thais loves to drink 2 3 time a week.. I find the circle of her friends though good, doesn't help her cause much.
        Reply

        • Long Term Thai Guy says

          With her having children, just a wedding ring and a Marriage at Amphur if you want to make it official. If you wanted a small party, you could invite friends and have a meal out somewhere nice.No need to pay the parents. One of my good friends married only three months ago a 28-year-old Thai with one child, and this is what he did. She got upset a little but he explained to her he will be looking after her son and did she see the prices for a good education at an International School for her son when he needs to go to school?That ended the problem very quick.My wife gives her Mum 4K a month, but the Mother works as well. Most uneducated Thais working markets or at a soup shop earn 9,500 a month. Your Mother-in-law is earning a workings person wage and should not be getting "Facey" over that.Best of Luck!
          Reply

  68. Yuri says

    As I have understood after reading ThaiWomanTalks blog, the (traditional) purpose of SinSot is to compensate to brides parents their loose of supporter. As, after being married, she will live in her husband home and will support his parents instead. When thai girl marry farang and build home next to her parents home, obviously no (traditional) need for any SinSot.
    Reply

    • TheThailandLife says

      There are actually a few traditional dynamics to sin sod which are generally agreed on. The first being a payment for the "mother's milk", so to speak. Historically it was said that parents had put a lot of money and effort into raising a good daughter and that the sin sot was a compensation for this. In old times with no pension or government support (or which many still don't have) the sin sod would be a much needed pension pot or financial aid to rebuild the home or other.Another dynamic is the consideration that the daughter may get married, have kids and then the husband leaves her. She will then return home with her children and become a financial burden on her parents. In this instance the sin sod would be an insurance of sorts.Of course, we must not forget the dynamic of the societal hierarchy upon which Thailand is built: Rich or poor, the sin sod is a reflection of the family status, the daughter's character, her level of education and the other things I discuss in my post. As we know, sin sod has evolved to become a somewhat showy affair among folk with a lot of money, and in many cases it is a redundant tradition. But 99.9% of Thai weddings have a sin sod. It is deeply rooted in Thai culture. So whether your in-laws are super rich and are just showing off to guests and will return the money, or they are really poor and need the money to refurbish their house or put in the bank for old age, trust me, if you marry a Thai woman, you will more than likely have to deal with the issue of sin sod.When ThaiWomanTalks says "supporter", is she referring to financial or domestic support? I ask because the second part of your statement regarding the wife then going on to support her husband's parents sounds like domestic support.In the modern day, there are many young, single working women sending money home to their parents each month. When they get married and have kids, this may stop, unless they decide to return to work after having kids. So in some instances the parents would look to keep the sin sod money to compensate for this eventuality.The mistake a lot of foreigners make is that they just keep paying over and over again. They give their GF a monthly salary, they send their GFs parents money, they "lend" money to family members, they support their GF's children from previous relationships, they build the parents a house, they then marry and pay sin sod...and the bill just never ends.The reality is that sin sod is no big deal. Just draw a line in the sand from the outset of your relationship and stick to it. Don't be a walking ATM. And if a woman doesn't want to be with you because you won't keep coughing up the cash, give her up, as she's a bad habit.
      Reply

  69. Plplyr says

    I'm a Thai woman, no kids and never married.i have a good education. I know my mom are expecting a lot of sinsord from my boyfriend,but I never want that and I even hate this kind of things, but then my mom always angry when I said something like I wanna spend our money travel the world together etc.. :( I don't know how to talk to her, we didn't have plan to get marry yet. But this is bothering me a lot. And she seems don't understand me at all, but I don't wanna lose relationship because of this, what should I do or say? She always give me tons of pressure about this. Always said" you should have a big wedding in Thailand so I will invite that gossipy friends to your wedding so they can spread words about how rich your bf are :( " you should marry him soon" you should ask him a lot of money " I hate this so much and everytime I heard this stuff I'm so mad and angry.
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    • Dekdoijairai says

      You should think about it is YOUR life. You will live with your husband not with your mom. We live in the 21st century , you don't need to show ANYTHING to ANYBODY, especially to some gossipy friends. The couple life is played in 2, it's not a team play. And don't worry about your mom, if she loves you she will respect your decision, maybe in time and not immediately but she will. Good luck :)
      Reply

    • wordi says

      Each generation, in every culture, develops the culture from the previous generation. sometimes in a good way, sometimes, as we can see in the west now, in a bad way.As you age, your relationship with your parents changes, and ultimately the caring roles reverse. If you and your fiance are confident about your position, beleive in yourselves, and politely, gently but firmly refuse.Time fixes even broken hearts, so I'm confident it would fix your mother's bad feeling at 'loss of face', or loss of opportunity to profit from your fiance.
      Reply

  70. pat says

    my Thai gf is 28 single and am 38 single. She works in an cosmetics shop in bkk. We are looking at 1M Bhat for sinsod which she claims will apparently will be returned back to us. Only a portion will be for their parents, lets says around 10% and 20% for her. Its too touchy to discuss money matters but hope 70% is returned back. Wishful thinking. Cheers. pat.
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    • Long Term Thai Guy says

      Just read this. Why is it too touchy to discuss, after all, she is to be your wife?Also, why does 20% go to her? The money is to go to her family, not her?Maybe the ThailandLife can educate me on this fact? Iam of the understanding the money is for the family, not for the girl apart from perhaps a gift of gold? I asked my wife, and she said yes, gold goes like this.1) Wedding Ring and maybe some gold to the wife2) A small amount of gold to the mother/father maybe like a ring or a necklace.Have not heard of the bride getting a cash percentage of the Sin Sod before? Perhaps it is done, but I have not seen it to date in any weddings I have been too. In fact, my wife says we are invited to a Wedding almost every second or third weekend, but she does not tell me and us now only go to those that are important (like family and super close friends).Also what type of Education has your wife got? A million Baht is not chump change.All the best with the coming wedding. Hope you are both very happy.
      Reply

  71. chris says

    For the ceremony, all you need to bring in a ring ceremony and a quantity of cash. While you can put it. I was not expecting that amount over the tray. Just follow the tradition Thailandthis is what my fiancee told me she said whatever ammount is within my abilities.any suggestions?
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  73. Long Term Thai Guy says

    Married a year ago. No Sin Sod or no marriage ceremony. Just went to Ampur.My wife is 32 and accountant. I am 46. My wife has an excellent education and job.She went and saw here parents and told them she was a modern girl and that she was marrying me because she wanted to be with me. She said Sin Sod was outdated and even though she came from a Northern family and her Mum, who is half Chinese wanted Sin Sod, she told them she has given her family enough.She built them a house before we met and they earn about 12,000 a month selling at a market, and for them, that is more than enough money to live off. Her Grandparents who are now dead were wealthy and put her through University. After the Grandparents death, the father wasted all the money on girls, drink and gambling. Typical Thai story.When I hear you guys talking from 500K onwards to pay for Sin Sod and NOT get it back, your are getting took for a ride.Lord, I am reading some of you guys are paying Sin Sod for a previously married girl with children! The parents, in this case, are laughing all the way to the bank with your hard earned cash with a previous Sin Sod from a Thai husband.You are going to be bringing up someone else's offspring, and for any Thai family, that should be enough!Some of the 'wages' you guys are paying the parents after marriage is laughable. Do you all understand that most Thai guys would not come anywhere near the money you are throwing away? Most average Thai guys cannot even make half of what you're giving a month.After reading so many of these comments now, I can understand why so many older Thai women with children want to find a farang as you are all easy marks.
    Reply

    • TheThailandLife says

      A fair assessment, I'd say. But one thing you haven't touched on is that when a rich guy marries a Thai woman, he will always display his wealth by paying a sizable sin sod, and prior to that usually splashing out on a big engagement present. He will also buy gifts for her family.Now, it is true that a rich Thai guy will usually marry into a family on a par with his wealth, but sometimes, for a nouveau riche guy who became wealthy of his own accord, or is from a family that was once poor and made their money fairly recently, he may marry a woman from a poor family; he may simply choose to do so.Perhaps she is the daughter of a long-time family friend, or childhood sweetheart, or just someone he met and fell in love with. It happens. Even though she is poor and perhaps uneducated, he is still likely to show off his wealth with a huge sin sod.My point here is that if a woman, rich or poor, marries a man that others perceive as wealthy, they will expect him to display that wealth in marriage. This is cultural.So when a woman marries a foreigner, it is automatically assumed he is wealthy, or at least so by average Thai standards. Of course we know this isn't the case and foreigners come in all shapes and sizes, literally too. But the mentality of the poorer Thai families with little knowledge of the world outside of Thailand perceive this to be the case, and as such expect that all foreigners are wealthy and therefore it's pay day when sin sod comes about.Foreign guys are falling into a trap of competing, unwittingly. If I had a dollar for every time I have heard stories like "so and so's daughter from (insert moo baan name here) married a foreigner and he paid xxx xxx and built a huge house etc". To most, to marry a foreigner who is poor would be considered pointless. I mean, why not just marry a Thai, right? For most outside of the relationship, love is not a consideration. People are viewing the relationships of others in terms of financial gain.Also consider that culturally no woman wants a small sin sod, because as I discuss in my post, this directly reflects on her social status, her education level, her family name. So to marry a wealthy guy (perceived), who is also a foreigner, and get a small sin sod, is a huge loss of face.
      Reply

      • Long Term Thai Guy says

        Thanks for an excellent reply.I have been in Thailand for some time. I have seen massive Sin Sods paid out but to date, never by a Thai guy in my local area. Yes, in the news we might see when a superstar pays out, or someone of the high-so area within the local area pays out, but they are in general, in a league of their own. In all honesty, I see most foreigners dragged into this, and they pay way too much especially if the girl is from Issan or the far North. Yes, this is all about face, but my wife brought something up to me that made me think about this in a different light.My wife said she got called out by all her 'village' friends (not her educated friends) and neighbours for not having a massive party, showing an enormous Sin Sod, and the rumours were nasty. She told me outright, Thais love to gossip badly about each other and that it comes down to jealousy. She said it is within the Thai nature to show this gossip and nastiness as in general terms they have nothing better to do. Village life is boring, and gossip and bringing others down is just part of the face game, and she told me outright, she does not play that game.For myself, I do not give a damn, and neither does my wife. She says they are not paying her bills, they are not looking after her family, and she told me she broke her mother's heart not by having a big wedding, but she is not like other girls, and for her whole life, she hated this whole idea of 'Thai Face'.Like you can see, she is independent (sometimes also not to my benefit but I would not have it any other way).Maybe the younger, more educated girls are changing. Who know but the reality is that older foreign guys coming in paying large Sin Sods for uneducated Issan or Northern farm girls with children are a joke all for the fact of saving face. In fact, when this does happen, my wife then says the shoe is on the other foot, and the locals say what an idiot the guy is for paying out such large money on 'used goods'. Yes, it can be nasty!It is pretty simple in my books; yes pay if you want too but don't be a fool as I have seen marriages last only a few weeks to months. Yes, sure the parents have a lot of say here, but if you are going to splash bundles of cash at them because they said so, you're already out of your league. It does not have to be the poor 'wealthy farang' that gets done over. Most the guys that I do know marrying in my circle of friends are economic refugees after being cleaned out on a European marriage first.So, it is up to you in so many ways. My case may have been different as I do have an independent wife with modern ways and I can assure you after mixing with her friends and batch mates from Unversity, things are changing in many respects.A great Australian friend of mine married a lawyer in a large firm, and he told me Sin Sod was only brought up for about two minutes from the family. They did not want it, and this is a lady the earns six figure sums a month.So, it is just different to and for everyone.Sure, it still maybe not work like this out in remote villages but with the massive numbers of well-educated young women here and if you're a half decent non-sexpat kind of guy, you have a vast array of choice for decent women. Not just some up-country poor village girl or local bar trash with a tribe of kids.I hope that helps and you have a great blog.
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        • Professor says

          I have to agree with Long Term Thai Guy 100%. This notion that Sin Sod is paying money to a Thai bride's family is absurd. Even the lower income Thai families whose daughters marry Thai men often contribute to the Sin Sod amount together. The parents then return the Sin Sod to the couple. Any foreigner being asked to pay for their Thai bride is being fleeced. Simple as that. You can display the cash with the requirement that it's returned, but if you're expected or demanded to pay for it, she doesn't respect you, and neither does her family.At the same time, if foreign men paying for sex with a prostitute is deemed a form of exploitation, then so is paying her family Sin Sod for the honor of marrying their daughter.I was never asked to pay Sin Sod. My wife is from a middle class family in the rural north. They have never asked me to pay for anything or to finance their materialistic desires (and they seem to not have any).Please men...there is absolutely no need to pay for a bride. Doing so doesn't earn you respect among Thais, doesn't win you points with the family, and if anything, sets up the relationship for failure. Look at the number of foreign men who have doled out cash for their brides and their families, only for the relationship to fail.If the the relationship rests on the need to provide money in any form to her and her family, then it is a transactional relationship. The day you no longer provide is the day the walls holding the relationship together begin to crumble, and often is the case the relationship never had a solid foundation to begin with.Sin Sod is a thing of the past, from days gone by when women did not have the freedom to work and earn a living independently of a man providing for her.
          Reply

    • Adam West says

      Good on you and your missus. There is no way to justify any sin sod payment for any reason. If the woman is genuine and she wants to be with a man then it won't really matter. They know their family will get some type of help or financial advantage long term anyway and don't need a down payment. My advice to anyone, regardless of Thai culture is not to pay anything. There are plenty of girls in Thailand, Philippines, Vietnam etc........ getting married is not about money. if a guy marries a woman with children then he will pay anyway. My view may seem harsh to some but I am a realist plain and simple. It's your future and money doesn't grow on trees. If you have money and want to live in Thailand go for it... if you struggle and are only just well off enough I would say forget it and find a woman who just wants you and not just your money.
      Reply

      • Michael says

        Hi Adam, I have a girlfriend mother wants 1 million baht for marriage my girlfriend loves me and also her neighbor talk with me and said that this is the price foreigners are paying well I thought what her was saying is true and her family is very poor and is in a rural area and really need of this money so I agreed to pay it but I see that information I received is not correct and some foreigners pay nothing I'm a 45 years old man her is 25 years old virgin and they are assisting on 1 million baht, her also has a loan with her university and her pay Thai government 10,000 baht a year and I think loan is 170,000 baht so another 17 years to pay debt off we want to marry but I feel I'm not getting the best deal here so what are my options is too pay and in return her give me my a child which I want so much or break up relationship with her over money
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        • Adam West says

          If you pay that amount they will blow it so easily.... The poorer the people the quicker money runs through their fingers. Tell them you don't have the money and that you could help them in the long run bit by bit etc which you will anyway on top if the sin sod. Don't be too nice or think you are doing the right thing. If she is genuine she will understand and stay with you. if it's just a grab for money you will find out quite quickly.
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          • Long Term Thai Guy says

            I agree with Adam above; a million baht for a up-country low-income family is something that they would never get from a Thai man.Last year I went to around four weddings, all Thai. Maximum Sin Sod paid was 30,000 to 50,000 baht and 1 baht of gold.In all cases, the money was given back.Now, on the other hand, I was invited to two foreign weddings, and in one instance, 200,000 given and two baht of gold. The parents gave the money back to them but kept the gold to wear as a gift.The other case, 400,000 was received and the money not given back. The family was near destitute and the money spent on a new Isuzu truck.The funny part is now the guy is paying now for the parent's payments for the car (and lord know how they ever got approved for a loan in the first place); the yearly car insurance and also the fuel. So just be aware. My friend was not very happy about this deal, and it has caused discontent he has told me as he does not have an endless supply of cash on hand.All things are not cut and clean. A British guy I know was asked to buy a new Hino Truck for Sin Sod, and that was in the millions. The family was super poor (living up near the Golden Triangle). He refused to pay; she told him to pack his bags and go. The girl in question now is working in a local farang bar at her parent's insistence looking for someone.Still, you can have happy endings as well; a Thai work colleague of mine who does have serious money married a young Canadian guy who did not have a cent.She stumped up at the wedding 800,000 in 'show' money and tried to give the money to her parents. They of cause declined, but it was once again all for a show of face. No one knew that he did not have the money and I gather great face would have been gained in this instance.So not matter what, this is all a gamble, so think carefully about what you are going to do. Also just wanting a child from a young woman whom has just finished Universtiy and wanting maybe to move into a career just because you desperately want a child may not be a good idea.Think about it all carefully.Good luck!
            Reply

  74. Swati says

    Hi i am an india girl , i got a marrige purposal from rich thai boy and he is been asking me how much sin sod my mom wants as my mom is singel parents who raised me, so plz help me with this how much u think we should ask for ?
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  75. chris says

    hello. I have been dating a Thai woman for the past 18 months and plan on bringing her to the US on a marriage visa. Over the 18 months I only sent her money three times and it was small ammounts for english school and attorney fees. My GF owns her own Salon in Isan and her parents are poor rice farmers. My GF is divorced from a Thai man is 38yrs old and has 2 kids that her in-laws take care of. she doesnt have custody of the children and they will not be coming to the USA. I have met her family in her village and they are good people. we are going to have an engagement party on my next visit in April. I did not even know about this sin sod and I have been to Thailand 8 times . LOL. anyhow I am not really prepared for it any suggestions? The last time I stayed at the parents house i gave dad a bottle of whiskey and 1000baht. She hasnt mentioned sin sod to me and i dont know what to do. I am not rich either so help please
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    • TheThailandLife says

      If she hasn't mentioned it, I wouldn't either :) Not all women want sin sod or agree with it in the modern day. I have a good friend who married a Canadian guy and she did not want sin sod or a traditional Thai wedding.
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  77. Krister says

    ok i read everything and it's very interesting My problem is like this ! I'm going to hopefully marry a 38 old woman she has been married 2 times before and have 2 kids with these guys She is not well educated and not have a fancy work but she's name is well respected in the city and her mum is very traditional I think they more traditional than the normal Thai because mum from Thailand and father from China and in her first marriage the parents decided witch man she should marriage So old tradition is nr 1 so far everything OK But her mum wants about 500000 bath in sinsod and I think it's to much I rather want to spend the money on a house together with my wife And when I think about it she's 38 Benn married 2 times and have 2 kids I definetily think it to much What's your opinion about it ?
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    • TheThailandLife says

      There's a lot of variables to sin sod these days and it mostly comes down to the individuals, but from a traditional standpoint if she was marrying Thai it would be 50-70k, depending. If she met a rich man it would be more, or a poor man maybe nothing, since she has been married twice and has kids and is from a poor family etc. But hey, you love her, you want to respect her, respect her mum, meet in the middle when it comes to marriage tradition, etc. So go between 100-200k, not more. 500k is silly money.
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    • Adam West says

      I would not pay sin sod in this case (I never would in any case) but if you really wanted to you could let them know that you really would like to spend that money on a house. That makes more sense than just giving them money to literally waste. Personally I would not get involved in this. It's not the children's fault but I would not marry a woman with kids if you are thinking of starting your own family. It may also depend on the children's ages. If they are older it may be ok especially for older guys who already had their own kids previously. This may not seem fair to the lady but she is second, second hand goods so to speak and sounds like she will be a burden on your wallet, but then again may not be so bad. My experience with what I have learnt about Thai women is that most care first about their own family and money.
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    • Wordi says

      I would not pay in this case either. Seriously, in Asian eyes she is damaged goods and to pretend otherwise is exploiting your naïveté. As I said to another guy in a similar situation - what does this tell you about the family you're about to join - that they'd do this to you at the beginning.Pull out and find someone better, or test her and say if she loves you, just marry, no money involved, then you'll see the true colours.I'm applying this to myself, and I WILL wait until I find a girl/family who are not looking for a human ATM. And I'm a generous guy, don't get me wrong.
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  78. Paul says

    Hello I get married In April. We are having a abeach wedding first on an island. And then a blessing in the village. Her parents said not to worry about money. And are happy to have 1baht gold each. Which works out to be about £800. So I think it's a good deal I got. I will be show boasting the gold with money at the wedding, to make it look better though.Regards Paul.
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  81. Nuch says

    Hi guys. Im a thai women. Can I tell u something about my opinion. It,s right what you say about sinsod. It,s all about the family face and good daughter have to make it happens. But warning when they got big face then they might can not stop it and maybe make problem in the future. But dont give up If girl love you enught for not care about it she will find her own way. Good luck all of you.
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  82. Adam West says

    I got married when I was 21 in '98 and I paid no sin sod. My wife and I just went to the Banglamung registry and paid B1000 and signed a piece of paper etc... Done. It would depend on the woman's situation. My wife is from the North not isaan and very independent. She only has her father who is over 80 and not well, and once he is gone she says that will be it for Thailand. She has no interest in living there and all that nonsense.We didn't even have a marriage ceremony in her village near Chiang Muan which gets visited only infrequently. She did tell me that if her mother had been alive there would have been problems with how we did it. We do help out her sister and have sunk considerable funds into their schemes and they have to repay debt now. It will take them a long time. So apart from that I was never shackled to the concept of sin sod.Now, I know of quite a few others that really got screwed over and still are even though their wives parents are fairly well off with businesses and farm land and other daughters married to richer fellas. I think a lot of the time their greed goes way beyond the basic concept of sin sod etc. They will ask for more and more and waste more and more as they have no concept or grasp of saving for the future and building wealth other than buying gold. Unless they are of Chinese extraction, then it may well be a different story and a different type of greed. The wives of these foreigners do not grasp the concept that you need to look after yourself if living in a western country and the more money flows out of your bank account the worse off you will be in the future. There is no thought of the future consequence of the actions taken in the past and present which really worry me.I would not pay any sin sod if for some reason I wanted to marry a Thai woman again let alone one with children. The long term drain on the purse would be too much let alone the sin sod payment. I'm glad my wife understands that living in a western country we need to prepare ourselves for our looming retirement and older years as no one will look after us and I don't expect or want my children to sacrifice their lives and future having to spend their hard earned on us. This concept is still very foreign to older Thais.
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    • TheThailandLife says

      "We need to prepare ourselves for our looming retirement and older years as no one will look after us and I don’t expect or want my children to sacrifice their lives and future having to spend their hard earned on us. This concept is still very foreign to older Thais"This is a good point. The concept that children are not responsible for their parents financial wellbeing is quite alien in some sectors of Thai society. For many, from the time they are old enough to work, there is a huge pressure on them to not just support their parents, but improve their financial status. In some cases, the more a child earns the more is taken, and often wasted. Generally, in the West, the opposite is true. To ask our children for money would be the absolute last resort, and never would we see them as a means to a better financial status.It should be noted that this is by no means exclusive to Thailand. A parallel culture exists in so many second and third world countries.
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      • Adam West says

        This is how it was in Europe as well in the not too distant past. I understand how it works and the reasoning behind it but in places like Thailand it is slowly fading as young people start making their own way in life away from their extended family.
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  83. Dekdoi Jairai says

    Hello people, I was looking for long time for the meaning of sin sod. For people who want to know the truth, here are some rectifications : Number 1 - " As you might know, it is common for the average Thai woman to send a portion of her salary to her parents each month.After marriage this usually stops " - this is not exactly like that. The parents supported by their daughter before she marry will be supported with money even after she got married and it is expected that the husband will be the one who open his pocket to do this, as well to do this for other relatives of the bride's family. Number 2 - "The bottom line is, women don’t walk away with half of everything like they do in some Western countries." - Yes, you are right ! By Thai law, they walk away with 51% of everything in case of divorce.Good luck to everybody !
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  84. wordi says

    I'm potentially in this situation now. She's young, been married, got a baby and a toddler. And has just mentioned Sin Sod. I would be OK with paying a standard amount if she were an unmarried virgin - after all it's either a tradition or not, and if it is, then she has to play her proper role too, or we can go western totally, and no Sin Sod. Furthermore, her parents still have the money form the first husband.So I won't be paying this, I figure I'm doing enough by taking on her and her kids - they get financial security from me so I'm not about to harm my ability to provide that financial security by donating a hefty sum to a third party.What I will do though is provide my wife with a household allowance, and if she wishes, she can send part of that every month to her parents. How much she sends therefore, and the effect that has on our own standard of living will be in her hands.To avoid any loss of face, I'll propose we don't have a ceremony other than a meal in a nice restaurant.Any thoughts?
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  85. Frank says

    Hmmm all very interesting first thing thankyou very much for your work i am happy to have a place to talk about my situation . I have talked with my fiances family regarding sin sod father a farmer living in a village in a house with mother while oldest daughter and her husband work the family farm dad makes a few brooms and such mother cares for some grand children but not full time second daughters husband works the farm she works in a shop and helps at times on farm third daughter my fiance lives 1 hour away in a northeast city is university educated has her own house ( mortgage not much left to own it ) has a good job around 20 k month and a 5 year old daughter married and divorced obviously . Father suggested a salary of 10 k amonth for him and same for mother totaling around 250 k a year 4 years 1 million 8 years 2 million and so on i said jeez sweetheart thats around 20 percent of my earnings i am just a working class man but when you come to my country you can work in your field i have connections to get you a good job and you will probably earn more than i do and then his suggestion is very dooable as 2 incomes will cover this easy in the mean time i should think that half a million on the table at the wedding should see the spectators saying not bad she is divorced 35 and has a kid half of that returned after wedding other half they can keep before relocating i think 5000 per month is reasnable considering the relocation and spouse visa costs i will incur along with finishing up her mortgage and university debts before leaving thailand around half a milliin baht . Okay thats it oh there is a 4 th daughter lives far away husband no help to family i intend to rebuild father and mothers house in about 2 years is dooable for me at around a million baht i think i am in the ballpark of more than reasnable allthough some aspects of future monies and assets for mother and father are only words now i still think i am around about right okay thoughts please and thankyou again
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    • TheThailandLife says

      Hi Frank,The first thing I'd say is that it is not your responsibility to pay them a salary, and this shouldn't come in to negotiations about sin sod. I'm not sure where this idea comes from, but most certainly this is not part of the culture. In fact, one theory behind the giving of sin sod is that the parents will no longer have the security of their daughter sending them money from her salary each month because she will be married with her own family to take care of. If, as you have suggested, your wife wants to get a job once you are married, it is up to her if she wants to send money home.Moreover, they don't need 10k each a month to live in the sticks. 10k between them would be enough, and don't forget that the other children have a responsibility to contribute too, not just you.Plus you are planning to build them a home. I would say that the half of the sin sod you plan to gift them should contribute to that purpose, otherwise what will it be used for? I would recommend improving the existing house infrastructure rather than building a new one, and honestly, 1M Baht doesn't get you much these days once all costs are factored in, particularly furnishings.In addition you are talking about paying her university debts, and then there are the visa fees.I think you have to ask yourself at what point does this stop being a relationship and become a financial agreement. You are picking up all these expenses and debts and setting yourself a precedent going forward. If these are the costs that are being heaped on you now, imagine how bad it is going to get further down the line.
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      • wordi says

        As usual a very wise and considered reply Peter. I'd just like to second that. I think a good question to ask yourself Frank, and it's not a pleasant question, but what if things don't work out, maybe for normal reasons, or maybe because you'd been used. How will you feel and also how will it leave you financially?Seriously, cut right back on those numbers, at a minimum in the manner Peter has suggested. The fact that they're willing to take that much from you would make me doubtful about joining that family. There are loads of women out there on the sites, don't undervalue yourself.As you can see in my post, I'm in a similar situation. But I'm playing it cautiously and have a few other woman I'm talking with. Their behaviour therefore can be compared, and by a process of elimination I'll hope fully make the best choice. I have no qualms about doing it this way as it's a huge decision, and hopefully I only have to do it once. They're probably doing the same anyway.Hope this helps.
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        • TheThailandLife says

          That's a good point. Don't put in more than you can afford to lose, at least at in the early stages. Once the money for the wedding, the sin sod, the house, the visa costs is gone it's gone.And if you are paying money to her parents each month that will cut into the amount you are able to save personally. Until your wife finds work, you will also be paying for two.Of course, relationships cost money; the West is no different. Man, if I could get all the money back I've spent on relationships over the years I'd be sitting pretty!But Thailand is supposed to a cost-effective move, not one than ends up crippling you financially. Sadly though, i hear from a fair few guys each year who have put their savings into a marriage, house, lending money to their partner's family etc, only to be dumped and leave with nothing. Many have retired and don't have the option of going back to work.I'm not making any judgment on your GF, or anyone else's. There are good and ill-intentioned people in all countries, but just exercise caution to protect your future happiness and finances.
          Reply

  86. Claudia says

    My nephew wants to marry a Thai girl and the family is demanding 50K dollars for sin sod. Granted she is college educated, but by what you describe, the amount is too high. I assume the girl wants the wedding to take place in Thailand, but I don't believe her family is this wealthy to ask my nephew for this top dollar amount. Any thoughts? I believe this excess of money can be considered an insult since he traveled there to get to know the family, didn't know the traditions, and the Thai family didn't even ask to meet the groom's parents. What next? My sister is divorced, and this amount asked of her son is both surprising, and wards of a warning bell. Any thoughts?
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    • TheThailandLife says

      Are they asking for the money to keep or to show? At the current exchange rate 50k is around 1.5 MB, which is not unheard of these days. 1MB to show is quite common. I have a friend from an average family, a graduate with a successful small business, her family would not accept less than 1MB, though it would be shown and not kept. Her uneducated younger sister married with a 200k sin sod that was given back to her and her husband to build a home. It's a lot of money though and too much in my opinion. But if they are a wealthy family, with a good name, a highly educated daughter ...yadayadayada then this may be their standard and they won't accept less, primarily because they don't want their daughter marrying someone who couldn't afford that. At the end of the day it is all about face, to their friends and the community. Sad but true. If they are wealthy they won't expect to keep it anyway. It would just be for show.
      Reply

  87. Kris says

    Sin Sod is parents trying to turn a profit on their daughter. That is exactly what it is so they should just say it and see if there are any takers. This bs about "oh you give me money for my daughter but how dare you call it exactly what it is" is pathetic.
    Reply

  88. robert says

    So my 32 year old son is close to 40K in marriage, immigration and sponsership, her daughter from a previous is almost over and the money keeps going out to thailand, out and out, including her (inherited?) thai land-transfer fees, with the intention to build a "holiday shack" there in the future. Every excuse is being used to extract the dollars over the last few years, I count at least a bakers dozen that i know about. I wonder if the daughter's father has been in play for the last 8 years. The excuse they failed she gives is pretty thin. Or is this sin sod? For what I read here sin sod is a gentle and honourable monetary exchange of the giver and receiver's overall loving and supportive intent to each other family's. Sometimes it may also be the repayment to the girls parents for looking after a child while she was working in the rice fields, I get that. Ours doesn't seem very honourable, it's certainly not gentle.
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    • TheThailandLife says

      It sounds like a lot of money, but land is expensive. You do have to be careful buying land in Thailand > see this post here: https://www.thethailandlife.com/buying-land-thailandI can't really judge the situation as I don't know the situation, but I've had a fair few emails over the years from concerned relatives worried about someone in the family being taken advantage of for money, so it pays (no pun intended) to be vigilant.
      Reply

      • robert says

        thanks for your reply TTL... that 40 doesn't include land but does include his travel back and forth over the last few years. Plus he has nothing to show for his wages... it's just a joke.... Thailand and these bar-girls are despicable! There is so much harm in the Thai culture, it rips the hearts out of its women, it abandons its men and lets its children beg on the street!. Those of you reading this that are educated, wealthy by your own virtue, congratulations, now make a stand! Change your country for an overall better life of your citizenship, not just yourself!!
        Reply

  89. ThaiDuck says

    OK I really liked this article until you said:"Your girlfriend has probably already sacrificed many of her cultural traditions to accommodate you in her life. Living with you and sleeping with you before marriage are two of those sacrifices."WHAT? I have lived in Thailand for 20 years and had 3 children and one step son go through the Thai education system. Are you really trying to say anything but the smallest percentage of girls are virgins when they marry here? Come on. Its 2016. The M3 kids are having sex.
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    • TheThailandLife says

      Indeed, of course it is rife. But when teenagers, particularly in rural areas are found to be sleeping together and it becomes common knowledge, they are often married off quickly (if old enough) to save face. Thus the huge amount of failed marriages and subsequent young women left with kids to fend for while the ex goes off and sows his seeds elsewhere -- and the cycle continues. These things are still very taboo, regardless of how much sex is going on. I have Thai friends in Bangkok living with their girlfriends and their parents don't know. If they find out they will be pushed into marriage. My best Thai friend (a female) tells her mum that when her and her BF go on holiday that she sleeps in a separate room.
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      • ThaiDuck says

        Agree parents are often kept in the dark but that wasn't really the point. As one Thai friend (an attractive girl of 25 or so from Issan) told me, if you meet an 18 year old cute girl who says she is a virgin, she is almost certainly lying...
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  90. Twk says

    I think it's all about culture diffirentiation in general. There are gold digger or bad person everywhere not only in Thailand and in both gender "man" & "women" it similar to the question...who came first? Chicken or egg?From what I read, the point of this article is about sharing his knowledge, experienced & point of views to others that might be useful/helpful.I think you have to individually consider your case as unique as it is, ask yourself what really happen here with you and your case? Do some own research, don't have to be too negative or too positive about it, put yourself in the middle of the way, take time learning your partner, your factor, be fair to youselve and her/him, calculate all factors and you might get yourselve some suitable answer eventually. It's time wasting discussion chicken & egg, it's all individual and unique as I said. The point is, if you really learn other cultures, you might be surprise how far they can go.I am half Thai half Chinese, Im married with the love of my life, it's my first marriage at 38 years old And now living with him abroad for so many years. Before that I'm well educated, good carrier, happy single. I consider myself lucky as I was borned in the family that never ask for anything but my happiness. 100% expenses spending for my trip to have vacation with him, study his language which is not English, visa, airplane & etc. are all from my own saving. My parents never ask for anything but our happiness together. No need for wedding party, only small celebration with family & close friends. To be honest & be real, there're not so many people in the third world countries that this lucky, I'm no defensive with those who face bad experiences with Thais as I realize that in some case it is what it is, nothing to correct about.All I ask is, as the mirror also has 2 faces, be fair to yourself & consider both up & down sides. Please consider yourself & your case as unique as it is, use your head not only your heart (perhaps both at the same time), so that you can realize & evaluate your own situation so that after a period of time, you can make the right decision eventually. If you don't want to be part of her/his family or their culture, please find your suitable partner in your own area that have similar culture, don't waste your time & asset to married others who diffirent than yours without having real information or done some researchers. There're a lot of decent people in those countries that do excist, please don't let your bad experience with the wrong people cloud your judgment of all. There're some foreigner killer that kill in Thailand too but we never call all foreigner "killer" so simple is that. If they aren't good enough, don't date one without any knowledge and came out crying "they rob me" as pity as it is, your own choice = your own fault.To those who didn't step your feet into it yet, do your own research, take your time, "do not judge the book by its cover" be yourself & be real. To those who already into it, I have nothing to say but "good luck" guys.
    Reply

  91. Dianna Compton says

    My cousin met a divorced Thai female when he went on a working trip to Thailand.since then he has become obsessed with her and has spent thousands of £ on her, her house, travel, holidays etc. She came to the UK for 2weeks in December 2015. Since then she is pressurising him into making a commitment to her as she says it's her culture not to have intimate relations with him unless they are married. She was coming yo the uk again for 4months at the end of 2016. She has demanded a sin sod. He has offered her 6k which is all he has left of his savings. Considering he is paying for her flights, hotels, upkeep of her house etc, she is saying that it's not enough! Her parents are dead, she has a 8year old child who lives with her father and a sister who is married to a Swedish guy. My cousin ended the relationship but she wooed him back as I knew she would. Now we have heard that he is going to live in Thailand next year. This is causing immense upset within our family as her social media activities (she has several facebook profiles, is on dating sites etc, leave a lot to be desired. Her posts are very suggestive as if she's touting for business. She posted a child pornographic video (FB removed it). Her posts are also geared to towards marriage, expensive gifts and holidays, which he buys her. I know it is his choice as an adult if 42yrs of age, but I have a nasty feeling that this is going to end badly off him. He has already distanced himself from longstanding friends in the UK when they voiced their concerns. Now he's alienating his family. My concern/question is:is this 'normal behaviour' from Thai women or is she just a money grabbing person whose ultimate desire is to live permanently in the UK (she told me that herself). Any help, tips, advice would be most welcome. If I could stop him leaving the country, I would as this person is not what he thinks she is. Many thanks
    Reply

    • TheThailandLife says

      This is absolutely not the typical behavior of "Thai women". Indeed all Thai women are individuals and the majority are morally grounded, genuine people.From experience, however, this doesn't sound like a promising situation and I'd say she's after the best deal she can get, so to speak. 6k for a sin sod for a woman with a child and I presume previously married, and from a working class family - not a middle or high class family (I presume) - is more than enough.Moreover, it is not for her to dictate the sin sod amount. This is to be decided between your cousin and her parents / your cousin's parents and her parents. A woman cannot demand a sin sod. Her father or mother could, but not her.The picture you paint is typical of a woman seeking to secure a foreigner to fund dreams of grandeur. Often, uneducated (usually) women see other Thai women married to foreign men / Thai men who seemingly have great lives: driving their own car, wearing nice clothes, living in a decent house and taking care of their family.But the reality is often quite different, and Facebook doesn't tell the whole story. Many are unhappy despite the money – because they are with a partner they don't love, aren't sexually attracted to and probably wouldn't choose as a friend let alone a husband. Some are happy and with someone they love, but work every day in a demanding job, as most people in the world do. Others don't have a pot to wee in but act like they are blessed with riches. It's all about keeping up appearances.I presume this lady sees your cousin as a ticket to a better life, which isn't unreasonable since most women want to marry a man who can provide adequately for his family and has the ambition to improve his financial position over time. But all too often in these situations, love/close friendship doesn't come into the equation: Rak ghin mai dai - love cannot eat (in Thai). These relationships generally do end badly, with the foreign party feeling taking advantage of and hugely out of pocket.I would most certainly warn your cousin of the potential dangers. At the very least, he should date this woman for 2-3 years to allow the relationship to develop naturally and learn more about her background, family and intentions.
      Reply

    • Surapa says

      Hi Dianna, This is not normal. These day I heard many cases like that. I still confirmed these information is true and I would say, there has good person and bad person anywhere in the world. It's like a scram. I hope you won't judge all Thais and hope your cousin will find the right girl one day. Sorry to hear that.
      Reply

    • Thai_k says

      I feel that your instinct is right. I am in my second marriage and what appeared to be a good new start is clearly not. I suspect he will be fleeced of everything he has and then she will stray to the next victim. Do your best to stop him making a mistake he will regret.
      Reply

  92. Jason says

    Thank you for your excellent explanation of sin sod. These are all very good reasons to never marry a Thai woman - even if you are a Thai man! You make a good point that Thai and American cultures are simply far too different for these marriages to be happy. You offer ample proof just how strange and dysfunctional Thai culture is - even for Thai's. American culture is not so blatantly materialistic. So skip all this nonsense and marry a nice American or European girl! Whether she's rich or poor, plain or pretty, educated or not, her culture is not so twisted she comes with some mysterious price tag that you're supposed to guess the asking price for. Her family won't lose face, and the neighbors won't gossip and laugh if she marries rich or poor. She'll likely work and provide half the family income. If you like the Asian girls, marry a Filipina. Filipino women are every bit as beautiful as Thai women. They all speak English and are far more likely to adapt to your culture than a Thai woman. A filipina may well expect that you sacrifice some of the family income to care for her poor or aged parents, but that can easily be agreed upon in advance and probably won't be much more than a couple hundred dollars a month. She just wants to make sure that Nanay and Tatay have food, clothing, and shelter.
    Reply

    • Professor says

      If a woman loves you so much that you must pay for the pleasure of her companionship then she is not so much in love with you as you think she is.Many Thai women who venture into the world of marriage to a foreigner are indeed gold diggers or members of a gold digging family. They care little for you as is demonstrated in their need for payment. This is no well kept secret and even the Thais know it well.The world has 7 billion+ people. Thailand is just a scratch on the surface. It's not as important as some Thais think it is ... or as some of them may lead you to believe it is.If you are entering a relationship where you have the upper hand financially then it is for you to determine the rules of engagement you are willing to accept. Do you want to go from upper hand to lower hand by transferring your hard earned money due to an unshared belief?Pride, honour, respect, culture. Nonsense. It comes down to money. If they want your money all the rest doesn't matter.Are you happy to spend it? If it disturbs you at all and your family to be seems uninterested in your feelings, you've got a problem. If not, then have fun spending!Be sure of this. Whether you spend it or not. She is free to leave you and not return anything you've given her.Sin sod is from days gone by when women did not have the prospect to earn a living. Today they do. Very much so. Even the women from hard up families have the freedom to work.If they feel insulted by your culture to refuse it, it's their problem. Not yours. Please...don't make it your problem. You'll live to regret it.I assure you that easily enough she will find someone else to replace you if the money is such a big concern. I've seen it first hand several times.Last month my wife, who is Thai, visited me here in China where I'm working on a project. She flew in at her own expense. Didn't ask me for a single coin. She simply bought a ticket, arranged her visa and came over to see me. I didn't marry her because she's Thai. I married her because she's gold.I'm not saying this to impress you. I'm saying this to urge you that you should seek such a partner in life - regardless of her culture or nationality. No one should have to tell you this but it seems men are easily conned, often willingly.
      Reply

      • Michael says

        But your wife is Thai and it's her culture that sin sod is to be made to her family, as it shows that you will love and take care of her in case of divorce and she can use that money to feed her children, but you don't want to pay and you insist on telling others not to pay, which I think shows that you shouldn't marry a Thai woman as you don't uphold their culture and it's plain to see that you're not Thai. A Thai guy I know spent 1 million baht and 10 baht gold chain for his bride, so you need to respect the culture when you marry a Thai. If you don't have a sin sod your wife will be ashamed at you and you will lose respect from her family.
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        • Professor says

          That's your rather uneducated view. Sorry, I mean no disrespect when I say that. My wife is educated, makes her own money, and she lived with me for several years before we were married. Her parents knew of this, they respected me and treat me as a true family member. Respect is not earned by throwing money at the family. On the contrary, that would be a lack of respect towards you.Fortunately, my family does not see me as a bank. They respect me for what I bring to the table. And I respect them for being an honorable family.If you know a Thai guy who spent 1 million baht a 10 baht of gold for his bride, good for him. It could be that he married into a very wealthy family and the money was returned to him, and likely so. But that's his culture. Not mine.If a Thai chooses to marry a non-Thai, then the Thai partner needs to be respectful of the other culture all the same.In case of divorce, there are laws in Thailand that protect her. She gets half of the assets acquired during the marriage, and if she owns any land in her name, and you as a foreigner get 0% of that. You need to eat too. Not just her.By the way, Thai guys get fleeced too. Don't think the fleecing only happens to foreigners. If a girl (and her family) is a gold digger, it matters not the nationality of the man. It's even better if she can get a Thai guy who pays. More face gained for the gold digging family.
          Reply

  93. Dustin Eward says

    Why is it that the Thai side is all that matters? What the woman demands it all that matters?There are TWO people in a marriage. If only one of them matters, that's the end of it right there.If your Thai girlfriend and her family give no consideration to YOUR traditions and YOUR values; run. This isn't even about being Thai. Any woman plays this game, she doesn't care about you and she has brought her family in on the scam... If a woman/family demands Sin Sod/Dowry, they have zero respect for you, you are nothing but a pile of money to be extorted. They may be old traditions, but that's exactly what they are. It doesn't carry any real weight anymore, and anyone who brings it up with no respect for a foreigner is only trying to extort you.
    Reply

    • professor says

      Precisely. If she insists on adhering to Thai customs (which is bull shit anyways since Thais hardly have any consistent customs or culture) she can marry a Thai man. No friction. But since she chooses to venture outside of her culture and choose to marry a man from a culture not of hers she must go beyond understanding his culture but also at least arrive to a middle ground.Mine did. No sin sod asked. No requests for money ever from the family.Some people on here think I'm making up stories. That's because they most likely took a woman out of the bar and have convinced themselves they're noble white knights.To these men, I say you deserve to lose every single bit of money to the woman you've chosen. Don't come back later complaining how you've been done in.There is a world outside of Thailand and I suspect many men are choosing to marry Thai women not because they want to but because feel they have few other options, especially when hearing people whine about western women.I'm certain no amount of money your lovely Thai bride demands will make her love and respect you more if you acquiesce. And if she leaves you for asking her to respect your culture or customs, consider yourself lucky.In any relationship two people need to bring something of equivalent value to the table. Otherwise you're buying a wife and that's the only way to look at it in my view.Call me a misogynist if you like. I'd rather be called names and keep my shirt than be a white knight pouring my woes into a pint in a bar after being done in.
      Reply

  94. R. Skrinjar says

    Excellent, well written article. I also live in Thailand and have a Thai girlfriend who I am marrying next year. This article that you have written is an excellent explanation of Sin sot. I urge all people wishing to marry a Thai girl to read this and fully understand what Sin sot really is. And like the writer stated, don't listen to bar stool gossips. Do you research. Thanks
    Reply

  95. Ralf says

    , Im from Singapore and trust me being Singaporean, many of our ASEAN counterpart perceive us as rich and its also normal to hear story of Singaporean thinking they are in love but in the end, it was the wallet.1) I would agree and disagree on the part you say ladies have already sacrifice by living or sleeping with you before marriage. It really depend. The having fling culture is very widespread. The ladies you mentioned are usually the really traditional ones or those who are really discipline in not getting a fling even though they stay alone in another city.2)I agree that if we think about the money aspect, marrying Thai is usually much cheaper as in our home country. Though SinSod is not exactly giving a dowry but both basically means money going out. So we are fine with it. And just take it that you are giving merit to Thanks her parents for bringing her up. Point 3 will tell you what I have gather about sinsod in current days.3) Sinsod is really about face to show their friends and relative. In fact, after marriage to a Singaporean, their parent may have a higher allowance monthly including a nice new house in time to come. So money is not an issue after marriage. Or maybe generally Singaporean will contribute allowance to our parents so its normal.4) Thai usually lack planning, so if you tell me the money is meant for the lady in the event her husband leave her, I can say its unlikely the money is still there unless the divorce comes months after marriage. But some may use it to open a small business which generate incomes too.5) The best is to really understand them and their culture. Only then you get to understand a lot more about Thai.During the course of dating ,you need to know her well. Don't fall into the honey-trap. Thai ladies are known to be really awesome partners but in every country there are always the black sheep and many black sheep turn towards foreigners so Good luck.
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    • Daniel says

      I am 26 and met a beautiful girl on thaifriendly. She is 25 and she is an English teacher for a public school in a province of Isan. She is a lovely girl, very beautiful, well educated and simply amazing. Her family is neither rich nor poor. They are farmers, they have huge portions of land and they are very friendly people. When talking about marriage and sin sod, we arranged a cerimonial sin sod of 1 million. Half of this money were given back to me after the marriage, and they paid for the ceremony from the other 500k. They wanted to give us back even more, but I refused since I can afford to give away that much with no bad consequences. My wife is a very respectable and beautiful girl, and our love is true and genuine. And Sin Sod it's a tradition everyone willing to getting married with a Thai woman should respect. Don't fall for prostitutes, look for a nice girl and build something real. The real problem here is that most of the men talking about failed marriages and prostitutes are older men who took the easy way and went for the "prostitutes market". And yet they complain after when everything turns against them. Not every Thai girl is a gold digging bitch... don't expect to find a pearl if you're looking into a sewer...
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      • Anne says

        I'm from a poor family but I'm educated. I've been working and studying my masters and now working for government in Australia. I'm about to marry and the offer is just to respect traditional culture. As much as my boyfriend could offer to show how powerful and the capacity of him to look after their daughter starting from day one. My parent love to have a plain lifestyle and be so unambiguous, and I think they will think to give us it back and they know that we don't need it back either, as they still love to be poor, lol. They don't want to keep it, maybe they plan to give to her grandson/daughter What are you guys talking about? Rich people will ask for an even bigger Sin Sod because they are looking for suitable guy for their daughter and capable guy to their family. If you ever think or mention to get Sin Sod back, don't even dare to marry a Thai woman (if a woman shows that she is financial support to the guy by returning sin sod it is so disrespectful to the culture because it is designed to give sin sod to the woman's family. If she worries the guy is not going to marry her because of Sin Sod and talks about it too much, in Thai way we call slut, because she is talking about Money beforehand. So it should be agreed and not spoken about too much. But know that some families expect the guy to get a house, job and asset before marrying to show the parent he is ready and striving to get their daughter.
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        • TheThailandLife says

          Thank you Anne for sharing your experience and some insight on the culture. It just goes to show that each family can have a different approach to sin sod, but there are some rules that should be followed so as not to disrespect the woman's family.
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          • Anne says

            This is very disrespectful article could make people misunderstand Traditional Thai culture. Who you collected this info from? Theses are from Nui Nid Nat or who are they? Are they kind of woman who starving in whitemen? Are they the professor or older Thai woman who is so competent in Thai traditional culture. Very very disappointed to this article those are based on scrab friends or individual tiny opinions and or dregs of the society. I was married and 38 years old of age with income approx more than $80k up to $$100k and at lease 3 degrees collected since I came to Australia for bachelor on my age of 23 years old. I still believe in Thai traditional way of my boyfriend want to go my home town has to marry me that the reason. Whatever you say here are rubbishes and if you or any unintelligent slippery guy m...not even think to go see my parent. Don't ever think to collect my words to show me a better English you have..and of course you are a native. I mean to put rubbishes comments for you to realise.
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            • Pilot says

              Sounds to me like you may actually have been a bar girl yourself. Now you admit you are 38 and have 3 kids and was married before. And you want your now boy friend to make an offer....wow....I am willing to beat it was a white man you was married to..... I visit all Asia alot and it is no secret that men have to watch themselves because most of the girls look at you as money only.... They will lie and mislead you and do it very well... If you even think she is lying or playing games well in Thailand chances are that she is.... I agree if two people truly love each other there are ways to get around this money thing. They should respect your Belief just as you should hers but whatever you do please do not fall for the virgin story. Most (NOT ALL) have not been virgins in years....If they can not give or show equal respect look for someone else..... Anne to me sounds like you do not like white guys...But in all races they have some bad and some good.....But as I said I have been here in Asia for 12 years working as a pilot and guys be very careful of the women in Thailand and The Philippines as well...However women in Thailand are way more Apt to do you in than the ones in the Philippines...Good Luck to all!
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          • Anne says

            Negotiation is the main point of an arrangement of Sin Sod. If the family is very protective to their daughter. The negotiation can be disappointed to a man and the purpose is just to make a man to be passionate get back to work and much harder then come back to talk to them later on when he is ready and that s the purpose of satisfaction of parents (or process). Not insult or charectorise, category and describe Thai family rich or poor like this. Some woman who work in Bar could value herself in traditional way rather Thai educated who are starving in Men and let men easily to Sin Sod process. How much is not important but as big value as much they could make the offer is the higher value to their daughter as well as exempting the guy to be strong, passionate and stable. Women these days want to get short cut to a guy especially white guy not value her at all by let man easily get through Sin Sod process.
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            • Anne says

              This process is meant to be so real nasty to a guy access to woman especially for frivolous men. If you think it's difficult for you with this process. Don't think to get nice woman marry. It's better go with woman who could offer you uncommitted relationship or if any nice woman who you think nice allow you to access through this process. The woman is too easy and not value herself. I recommend you people don't get marry in Thai custom at all...it will destroy traditional culture.
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              • Calum Halliday says

                The thing is Anne, if someone wants to marry a Thai woman more than likely they will have to go along with traditional Thai customs as the girl will never disrespect her family. Family values in Thailand are most important, a bit like the west was 50-60 years ago when family looked after each other and showed respect, something that now lacks in western culture significantly. Any man that goes down the path of marrying a Thai lady has to be careful and not let himself be exploited and if he feels he is then he should back out.
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                • Professor says

                  @Callum - In the west 50-60 years ago we may have had family values that are now lacking. But we didn't have the family values of so many Thais who seek out foreign husbands to cleanse his wallet and savings. We for the most part had honour based on honesty and dignity.The same as the Thais will not disrespect or abandon their families for you - all foreign men who are considering relationships with a Thai woman must look carefully at her family and their character. 15 years living and working in Thailand has taught me this is something you must do. And to walk away when you see the facts are not in your favour no matter how much you may love her. If they pay for nothing, you are an outsider to them and they don't respect you. Plain and simple.
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    • Bill Michael says

      Where can I learn about Thai culture without actually living there? I would like to visit Thailand from the US and would not want to insult or disappoint the locals while a guest in their country, so this is important to me. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
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      • Calum Halliday says

        Hi BillI've been reading about Thai culture for about 10 months now and due to fly out to Bangkok for my second trip in 4 weeks time to meet my Thai girl friend. All I can stay is read some of the good blogs, be respectful to their culture as it's important to them. I found a good youtube channel that helped me learn some basic Thai and it was easy to understand. If your going in search of a lady, girl friend please keep away from the bar girls. Most of the bar girls are only interested in taking you to ATM cash machine every few days.I tend to find the girls from the more rural areas are very genuine. My girl friend is a senior nurse and works in a Bangkok hospital but her family lives further north of BKK. The ladies in Chang Mai, Udon Thani region and rural areas of Thailand are better but that's just my opinion.I met my girl friend online and spent nearly 6 months video chatting with her on Skype & LINE App before actually meeting, don't give them any money initially if they ask. It's different after you meet a few times and get to know her. If I can help with anything of give you any advice just ask and I'll try and answer you.
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      • Professor says

        Respect is something earned. Not something given. Respect those who will respect you. You will not insult a Thai who respects you. Plenty of Thais visit and live in America without adhering to American 'ways' and yet few Americans ever feel insulted.Just keep your head on your shoulders when in Thailand and only meet women who would be the type of women you would want to be with at home.Most of those people who will feel insulted by a westerner are out to get something from you and will be insulted when you call them out on it.There's very little else to be worried about.
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  96. Calum says

    Some good articles, I'm going out to Bangkok in November to meet my girlfriend and hopefully speak to her mum about Sinsod as her father passed away many years ago. I looking for some idea of what I might be expected to show\pay, my girl friend is universty educated and works as a nurse in Bangkok. I'm also trying to understand the Thongmun tradition for getting engaged and this means spending money on gold for you bride to be. What should I be expected to pay for the giving of gold for the Thongmun. She mentioned to me that is might be as much as £10,000 and I nearly fell off my seat, surely she needs to be realistic about what I can afford.
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    • Tony says

      Hi Calum, Im in a similar situation with my Thai girlfriend who Ive known for nearly 2 years now, she's a lovley girl and we have such a strong emotional bond with each other. So far Ive been over there twice, only six weeks altogether, Im going back there in Jan, for 4 weeks, She is very insistent about getting married and us finding a house there, Ive explained to her that I still need to live in UK as well as Thailand so possibly 6 months at a time is what I suggested, its not her ideal dream of a future life with her new (2nd) husband but I have 3 kids in the UK (all over 18 now) and I dont want to completely disappear from their lives. As for the Sin Sod I guess it comes down to how much you can afford? £10,000 I agree, is a big wad of cash!
      Reply

      • Calum Halliday says

        Hi TonyI'm going back on the 5th November for 8 days and we are going to see her mother. I just can't think that £10,000 is realistic for the Thongmun just for getting engaged. I know fine when it comes to getting married I might have to pay that much for Sinsod but its negotiable also. If your wife to be has been married before, you should not be expected to pay much for the Sinsod as in Thai tems she has already given her seed to another man. You may want to pay an amount just as a gesture top the family. I'm only 45 so have many years to work yet and will bring my future wife back to Scotland with the intention of having a family as she is only 32, she wants to work in Scotland as she is a senior nurse at a hospital in Bangkok.My girl friends family are very poor from what I believe as her father died many years ago now. They have some land that the grow mangos on and I was thinking of helping them finance building a house on the land. I have a friend who has built a house on family land and now retired out there and the 2 bedroom bungalow cost 20K GBP including air conditioning and all the furnishings.
        Reply

  97. Tom says

    First of all thanks for this blog which give a good explanation and guidelines as well. I would like to focuse on one part '' divorce'' and the Thai Law which then occures for me as german . I can find in some comments it is said like .......''any assets you own in UK are protected ''......another ......''Bear in mind that this applies to property/ assets in Thailand , not assets acquired in your home country during marriage , the court can't rule on those ''...... . On the other side seeing what german / thai layers write on their Homepages - they talk about marriage contract like what we have in germany . ( marimonial property law ). So my simple question : I need a marriage contract or no need if Thai court cant rule my assets abroad and can reflect only on my assets here in Thailand . So do I need a marriage contract to protect my assets abroad . I add: place of marriage Thailand .
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    • Professor says

      100%. Why bother marrying someone if you have to SHOW them something, when they have NOTHING TO SHOW you?Another important consideration is ... has the notion of Sin Sod been used to extract money from foreigners unaware of the Thai culture surrounding Sin Sod? If the answer is yes, then is it a tradition which can and has been abused. Since we know Sin Sod has been used (as a bare minimum) to extract money from foreigners on several accounts, then when it comes to marriage between a foreigner and a Thai, especially from the stereotypical rural, low income Thai, then extraction of money is the norm. Refusing to participate in this extraction usually ends up in a quick end to the relationship. So much for the Thai culture of LOVE.I'm sure in some places around the world it's the norm for the bride to lose her virginity to an uncle. Well, let's respect that culture and heck, if you can't respect such a tradition, you should not be marrying this person. Nor they you.It boggles the mind how many foreigners, particularly westerners, lose their senses when it comes to the fool's gold otherwise known as a Thai woman.
      Reply

  100. Greg says

    My girlfriend's parents wanted 5,000,000 Baht for sin sod in the beginning and now have lowered that to 1,000,000 Baht. They refuse my offer of 200,000 Baht and refuse to discuss our marriage anymore. My girlfriend says today average Baht price should be in the millions. Because I cannot pay this amount the parents feel I cannot take care of their daughter. According to the culture what happens between the dating to the actual marriage ceremony? I know there are tons of scams out there and want to safe that I am not being scammed. What should I do from here on in to insure she is not scamming me?
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    • TheThailandLife says

      Are her parents suggesting that they will keep this money for themselves? That they will keep it for their daughter, in case you divorce; that they will give it back to you guys to buy a house; or just give it back after the wedding?1MB to show isn't uncommon for an educated woman who hasn't being married before and has no kids. The initial 5MB is out of the question unless they are a very well do to family. At these sort of amounts I assume they want a big wedding in a hotel, etc? Middle class families tend to do this rather than poorer families who have the wedding in the home.At the end of the day, you can only afford what you can afford. The idea that a man should financially cripple himself before he marries is plain stupid. Common sense says save as much money as you can so that you can start your marriage on a prosperous footing.There is always the possibility that they don't want you to marry their daughter and are trying to price you out, knowing you can't afford those amounts. But that said; the foreigners I know, and there has been two, who have been refused by the family were told outright after the first meeting (through the daughter). The relationships ended as soon as the father said "no way". Also, they have dropped down in price so it suggests they are trying their luck.I would simply say this is what I can afford to show, this is what I can afford to give (if they plan on keeping some of it): like it or lump it.
      Reply

  101. David says

    I love this topic.I understand both sides, and both sides are right. How does a Thai man who makes 40,000 baht afford a sin sod of 500,000 baht? The price for any decent girl. The answer is his family. Because, Thais accept this. But a foreigners family in no way is going to help pay $20,000 or more to the girls family.That's the foreigners perspective. For the Thai, not paying sin sod is simply unacceptable. It's like getting married and not having a wedding ring. I would say simply "when in Rome".
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    • TheThailandLife says

      Indeed, David. Though, a poor Thai man could marry a decent girl. I mean, not all decent women are wealthy or from good families. I assume by decent you mean well-educated and from a middle-class family? The thing is, a poor Thai man wouldn't be on the same social scale as such a woman, so therefore wouldn't need to stump up that sort of money for a marriage to a woman on his social level. That said, many Thai men do borrow money to get the sin sod together. It's not just about appropriating the status of the bride to be, but also not wanting others to look down on his family. Most will aim for a sin sod above 100k, where possible, with 200k being a common figure these days. The reality is that this is a deep rooted tradition in Thailand and, if you marry a Thai woman, you are most likely going to have to appropriate the tradition. Simply follow the rule of pay (show) what you can afford to. In the modern day, large sin sods are usually shown because the groom has access to the money and can do so, but more often than not a large percentage of this amount is given back. If the bride's family is already wealthy, they may not keep any of it. For poorer families, the sin sod is seen as a pay day of sorts for investing care and hard labour into bringing up a "decent" daughter.
      Reply

    • Jeffrey says

      The more I understand of the tradition it sounds like it is an outdated tradition even within the culture itself, yet is being reborn with vigor with the advent of internet dating. Like a sin tax for the dirty old western men (will need to include myself in that lot) that may simply want a young lovely Thai bride.
      Reply

  102. David says

    My 35 year old son is planning to marry a 35 year old Thai woman that he met on his vacation. He met her at a massage parlor and paid for her to stay at his hotel overnight. She comes from a poor village, was previously married and has a ten year old daughter that she does not see. The daughter is with her Thai father in another part of Thailand since she was an infant. My son has agreed to pay a Sin Sod of $3,800cad, and is planning a Thai wedding and hopes to bring her to Canada. Unfortunately, my son has lost his job, but he expects that I should contribute most of the money for the Sin Sod and the wedding. I have read the articles and know that a Sin Sod is not required under these circumstances. How do I knock some sense into him? Very Frustrated
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    • TheThailandLife says

      Hmmm, this is a difficult and understandably sensitive situation. The reality here is that in her situation, she would find it very difficult to find a decent Thai man to marry. Her profession, age, level of education, class (on the social scale) and the fact that she has been married before all count against here, so to speak. I writing strictly from the Thai societal hierarchical point of view here and mean no disrespect to her as a human being. She may be a kind, compassionate, lovely person for all I know. While technically speaking a sin sod isn't wholly applicable, it is up to individuals in these situations if one is present. In my experience, most second marriages do involve some sin sod, though usually not a large one. But again, this is dependent on the wealth of the families involved.The social level of Thai man she would have access to would most likely be very poor and unable to pay a sin sod of more than 20-70k. Usually, in poor circles and in such circumstances, the sin sod is somewhere in that range. The amount your son speaks of isn't that much more (a little over 100k).It isn't the sin sod that would concern me here though. How much does your son know about this woman? I get so many emails from men who have jumped in quickly and been taken for a ride. Surely without a job he should consider waiting until his financial position is better and he doesn't have to borrow from you? With her history, he may find it hard to get a visa to bring her to Canada, especially if he doesn't have an income. He should also consider that she probably has it in mind that he will be assuming financial responsibility for her family. For her this will be a given, because she will be giving up work to be with him.With all due respect to her, there are a million or more single 30 something, reasonably well-educated Thai women working everyday jobs, able to support themselves financially, and looking for a genuine relationship that isn't transactional. Would it not make sense to wait a while, meet some more women and reconsider his position? Though I understand that he may be in love with this woman and has sees beyond the superficial aspects of her past and status. I respect that, but I've seen one too many of these situations turn out very badly. The problem is that going forward he will have to carry all the financial responsibility, for her mother and father and possibly her daughter. And then there's the visa process, getting her settled in a new country -- what if she doesn't get on well there? People can be hostile to foreigners, and nasty with regards to stereotypes about Asian women. Acclimatizing to a new culture will be a huge, tough learning curve for her. It's a massive step to marry a woman from a completely different culture, let alone one who will become completely financially dependent on you.Hope this helps in some way. All the best.
      Reply

    • Professor says

      Don't let him do it. Trust me. Sin Sod are the least of your troubles with this type of woman. Sorry to sound stereotypical, but she is not what she appears to be. She works a job where she "satisfies" customers by the hour (or two), and gets paid accordingly. Her definition of "love" is drawn from her need to elevate her family status through the foreigner (your son) and she will equate his love with his ability and willingness to pay.I know of what I speak, and I can almost guarantee you it is a recipe for financial and emotional disaster.
      Reply

    • Adam West says

      Wholly cow, the description is classic and so will be the years of problems ahead if he goes through with it. Some of my wife's friends or acquaintances are women such as described and they are a nightmare for their husbands. Some are even real 'sluts', may sound inappropriate and harsh but a truth. Some of these ladies usually have several guys on the go attached to the milking machine.
      Reply

  103. manga1977 says

    I have a Thai girlfriend but I only make 30K a year. She said her sister went for 8,000,000 Baht but that her parents will accept 5,000,000 Baht. I do not have a lot of money so how to I go about discussing this. I have mentioned I only make around 16.00 and hour to her already. i could afford 100,000 -200,000 Baht. A friend of mine told me to wait till after she accepts my proposal. What do you think?
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    • TheThailandLife says

      I think she'd have to be from a well respected, rich family, been educated first at private school in Thailand, then abroad at University in the US, Australia or UK to be looking at that kind of Sin Sod. Without wanting to be rude, a woman with a status in Thailand who commands that kind of Sin Sod would no doubt already be wealthy and marrying someone of greater wealth than herself.
      Reply

      • manga1977 says

        I told her I would only pay 200,00 Baht for the sin sod. If here family is looking to cash in on me it won't happen. Thanks for the comment. She has university degree in Thailand but is only getting a 2 year certificate here so the sin sod should be less. She is 32 years old. Did I make the right decision to tell them that this was all I could afford?
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  104. Professor says

    Sin Sod – What You Should Pay to Marry Your Thai Girlfriend...Answer = nothingYou will in almost all situations where a foreigner is marrying a Thai, be upgrading her life. Forget about her status (unless you're that shallow that you care about such meaningless crap).Prostitutes are for short term sexual relief and entertainment. Your existence as a man, especially if you're a western man, is far more significant than discarding it for a definitely meaningless belief as far as you are concerned. More importantly, the hookers should be thanking you as few Thais would bring such a person home with a marriage proposal on offer.Of course the hooker may see you as a replacement of her freelance income but rest assured in most cases you will fail in your attempts to bring her out of that life, especially if she is under 35. Even past 35, it will be a major task since her views have long been shaped by the notion that she is entitled to your money by then.I believe there are more Thai women who are not interested in your money and are more than happy to chip in. Not that I needed it, but I made sure my wife chips in the expenses. She pays a third of the monthly bill not because I'm in need of her money but because if she loves me she better prove it by chipping in. Otherwise, out the door.Guys - you are the asset. Stop acting like pussies cow towing to these desperadoes who see you as their meal ticket. They know their worth in Thai society which is why they look at you, the foreigner, as their last attempt to redeem their status. Yet, they will fail in most cases because poverty is a mindset. Do you want to go down with their poverty driven ways?
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    • TheThailandLife says

      So essentially your advice is: Move to Thailand – a country with its own deep-rooted traditions and culture – meet a woman that you like, get into a relationship, then, when you want to get married, tell her and her family to shove their country's tradition where the sun doesn't shine because as a foreigner you are an asset and they should be lucky that you even graced their country by stepping foot in it in the first place? Doesn't really sound like the type of relationship I'd want to be in, and I doubt the woman in question would want to be in either.Why do you associate sin sod with hookers? Thai weddings across all classes still adhere to this tradition. And why do you call it a "meaningless belief". It's an integral part of the Thai wedding culture and has been for centuries. It reflects the hierarchical society, thus the amount shown has historically reflected family name, wealth, education, etc. I don't necessarily agree with it, but if you're going to marry a Thai woman, or live in Thailand, it is essential that you understand what it represents -- and it certainly isn't just a made up tradition to rip off foreigners!Maybe it's just better to marry a woman from your own country instead of getting angry about sin sod...
      Reply

      • vex says

        Totally agree mate, there is far to much disrespect of native peoples cultures around the world. If you have no interest in respecting and following there laws/culture then just leave them alone they did just fine before you went there. I personally would not want a partner who walks away from her heritage and family for financial gain. Such a small price to pay (money) for the best reward in life ( a loyal, loving partner).
        Reply

        • Professor says

          No they did not do just fine before you showed up. They practiced outright slavery and themselves would never touch the women foreigners typically find themselves marrying.I come from Canada, I would like to see how many of these people you feel I disrespect would sacrifice their culture to live and respect my culture?Culture is myth. It differs not only from one country to another, from one family to another. You'll never get one straight answer about anything related to culture. So there's nothing to hold on to and nothing to give up (except your money if you're a fool, in which case, serves you right).And no, I am not white. I am of Asian origin.
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      • Professor says

        So essentially, you are saying, a Thai woman who wants to marry a foreigner should completely ignore his culture, in fact, not even bother to learn it. Traditions change. It wasn't long ago that a Thai woman marrying a foreigner was viewed TRADITIONALLY as a whore/bar girl.Sin Sod is an outdated practice. You upholding it is akin to upholding stoning women to death for accusing a man of raping her in some Asian cultures. I'm sure you feel selling children to factories is a meaningless, if not, horrible practice that needs to stop. I don't know why white knights like you seem to shave off your balls thinking it's OK for Thai families to uphold a culture that puts much pressure on the WOMEN to show the man they love, Thai or otherwise, needs to present cash on the table. You can call it what you like, it's a dowry. Especially in the majority of cases where a Thai woman is entering a relationship with a foreign man.It's outdated. It's irrelevant to me as a Thai woman interested in marrying a foreigner for valid, genuine reasons, should not demand or expect her culture to pervade. It's that simple.No, Sin Sod is not just for hookers. But the many men asking the question as relates to Sin Sod are dealing with hookers or ex-hookers. If they were not, they would know from the families of these wives that they have no intention whatsoever to keep the money.Being white skinned is very much a thing in Thai culture. The whiter you are, the more beautiful you are considered. Let's uphold that culture too. You do realize how nonsensical your argument is. Once any person decides to marry another from a different culture, the individual's culture becomes irrelevant.By the way, I have been married to a Thai for 10 years. She has been faithful to me all these years, and chips in with the expenses. I neither discussed Sin Sod with her parents, nor did they keep any of my money. Nor do they ever ask.Let it be clear that anyone in a relationship with a Thai who asks for cash handouts or payments or purchases beyond their means is being played by a plain hooker.Perhaps, you have a tendency to write on topics that you have not fully studied, and commenting to people whose experiences you know nothing about.
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        • Professor says

          TTL: I also read your sympathy piece on prostitutes and bar girls, and while yes, most women do not aspire to enter these careers, many, do it out of CHOICE. They can STOP when they meet a decent foreign man yet many CHOOSE to continue working the game.Perhaps they are guilted into it by their families. I am sure, if your family guilted you into entering prostitution, you would make the importance decision based on what YOU think is right to do, not what you parents demand of you.But white knights shall never learn. No matter how much you help a hooker, she is that. There are many many women in Thailand who come from impoverished families who do not choose to enter the field.As my (Thai) wife always reminds me, the hookers are lazy, they CHOOSE to be hookers because it's fun and easy work (as far they are concerned). Perhaps, here and there, a woman enters and does not enjoy this work. So she tries to leave and find more acceptable work in society, only to discover those jobs require effort for pay. They then return to the sex scene. It's just too easy, especially when one is young.You've only painted it as a horrific ordeal for these women. I can tell you as a matter of FACT and EXPERIENCE that many women have chosen this path despite having a foreign man 'take care' of financial needs, and UPGRADE their lives in many ways.But to stay on topic of Sin Sod (dowry). Like rampant prostitution, it is a deeply entrenched part of Thai culture, much as honour killing is a part of other cultures. But you go on upholding the importance of it for your own peace of mind.
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        • Mik says

          Please don't call yourself 'Professor', it's kinda degrading for other Professors out there for someone like you to assume the name 'Professor'.If you're really a Professor, then you should be fired from your job. I pity you.People have different cultures, some follow it, some doesn't follow it, it depends on the family and the person itself. The same goes to your 'Wife', if you really do have a 'Wife'.That's their belief. So, Who the Hell are you to degrade those Thai women and their families who follow generations of traditions that their family follows?Don't go blasting other people's culture just because you don't like it.Three words that describe you?Bigoted, Misogynist, Pig.
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          • Professor says

            Yes, of course. You know much. I know plenty of Thais who don't like Thai culture.As for the name calling, very mature of you.I call myself what I want, and I say whatever I want. It's MY CULTURE.And yes, I do have a wife, been together 10 years to this date. No dowries, no monks, no requests for payments or financial assistance. And never came to a forum or blog to ask ...No, I am not a bigoted, misogynist pig.My Thai wife loves me, respects my views, understands that if something is not right for one person in a relationship, then it's not for the relationship.If something is not right in my own culture, I call it what it is.It's called being honest with yourself and with your partner.If you choose to be a beta male sheep dog (well known for name calling), you have my blessing.
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          • Professor says

            Go observe a female genital mutilation ritual in Africa and say nothing, for you should not disrespect the culture. Go observe some honour killings in South Asia, and respect the culture while you are at it.Just because something has been happening for a long time, doesn't make it right.Like slavery. Get it?
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            • Qualified Professor says

              @Mik: Just for you, this is why you are not qualified to determine whether I should keep my job. Do you even speak Thai? If you marry a Thai woman and produce a daughter, are you going to uphold this long tradition of Sin Sod and demand a payment for her hand?For the rest of the men here...Read and LEARN. And pay attention. Your culture is not inferior to that of the Thai. Few if any of the women whose families demand or expect Sin Sod of the foreigner are interested in your culture. So what's all this fuss about respecting her culture?Besides, MANY foreigners marry without paying Sin Sod. OK. They may "show" it at a ceremony. But make no mistake that it is not required of you, and any woman who makes it a condition of your relationship is less than half as worthy as owning a pet.YES, call me a misogynist and a bigot. Last I checked, it's 2016 and Thai women are working jobs that pay as much if not more than their male counterparts. Last I checked, most of the jobs in Thailand are reserved for Thais, and not foreigners. And you don't see many Thais in arms protesting about this.We are all left to choose our own paths, no one is putting a gun to your head. If your existence is merely about making women/people happy at your own expense, that's your choice.
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              • Mik says

                Damn, you're really a Professor? From which university? So that I can screenshot your comments and hand it to the administration (that way, you really will get fired). But I guess you're too much of a pussy for that.Someone calling himself a Qualified Professor and handing out stupid, bigoted comments (also defending it in a paranoid manner) is just too cringy. And yes, you're a Bigoted, Misogynist Pig.You do know that you contradicted yourself in your comments?One moment, you said 'No, I'm not a Bigot and Misogynist', then in the next comment, you said 'Yes, call me a Misogynist Bigot since it's 2016' shit? Make up your damn mind. But yeah, that's kinda funny with you being all defensive and shit. :)Were you really affected by that comment to give out 3 replies? LOL!!I'd rather be a 'beta' male than a bigass bigoted jerk who can't take the time to know and understand the culture of others. Blasting sin sod just because you don't like it is a pretty douche move. Comparing Sin Sod to killings and slavery is also pretty idiotic.Not all sin sod are scams. It's a tradition.Take your own advice, do it yourself. Read and Learn. Who the hell said any culture being inferior to other cultures? I pity your (imaginary) thai wife.And please, if you're gonna reply to this comment, 1 reply will suffice. It's funny how you get so paranoid.
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                • Very qualified professor says

                  Here's one reply for you. My wife thinks it's 2016 and for 10 years that she's been with me, she thinks too many foreigners think they know Thai women and it should serve them right if they lose their money and their hearts because they think that I'm a misogynist. She's happy to pay her own way. It's 2016.Let's not keep harping on my qualifications. First you show me you can live with a Thai woman for 10+ years harmoniously without spending all your money to keep her there. Then you can screenshot all you like ok?
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                • Qualified Professor says

                  Mik - you keep saying my wife is imaginary. Clearly you believe that because I say I didn't pay any Sin Sod. In other words, you believe all Thai women and families are the same, and you need to pay/show them money to be with you.So the last person I will be taking advice from about learning or reading is you. I'm fluent in Thai, I've lived around the world. I am fully aware of different cultures and respecting them.That does not mean YOUR or MY culture is inferior to theirs.You seem to think that respecting whatever a Thai woman or her family tells you makes you some kind of liberal non-misogynist?I've been with my VERY REAL wife for more than 10 years. I don't know about you, but my wife does not and has never expected payment of any kind to stay with me.She pays her own way, she contributes to the house and the bills. There's nothing imaginary about this, I assure you.And there is nothing imaginary - nor unqualified about me.Comparing a cultural requirement is not silly. If someone wants to take your money and tells you it's culture, you should be wise enough to recognize it.If it's ceremonial, and will be returned, AS IS CUSTOM, then no issues.
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      • Ardesal says

        That's what I did said I love u and ill suport u not ur family We've been together 15 years and have the only sucess full marriage out of her group of Thai friends in the UK as we both know where we stand. She works and built her house in Thailand with her own money. I do buy her younger siblings birthday gifts like laptops and mobiles but that because I like them not because they expect it. I have a very good university educated Thai lady friend family who own a rubber plantation in surit thanni.She married a Yank.He wasn't asked for and does not give a penny they have another very sucessful relationship. If they ask u for money unless ur th same age as her as attractive as her run a mile..........pretty young Thai girls don't fall in love with old Farangs.
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  105. Stanley says

    Hi there,Just wondering about engagement rings, is it normal for the man to buy an engagement ring for himself as well as the woman? Or is the engagement ring only to be worn by the woman and the man only wears a wedding band come the wedding. Thanks in advance!
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    • TheThailandLife says

      Historically rings are not part of the ceremony; this is a western influence. However, many Thai women now opt for a ring. It isn't as common in the rural areas as it is in Bangkok though, and generally poorer couples don't bother. A man certainly wouldn't have an engagement ring. Wedding rings are also a personal choice.
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    • TheThailandLife says

      I don't think there is a rule for this, but rather this would be a suggestion. So, "Let's agree to show x, then x is returned to me after the wedding, and you can keep x". Just tell your GF what you can afford to offer. If her family want to show more, which is often the case, you can choose to agree on the condition the amount above what you can afford to give is returned to you.
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  107. Jamluv says

    It's amazing how old this blog is, yet retains relevance half a decade later. Yes, it took me many hours to read all posts and I'm gonna throw in my two bahts worth. What I, a 40 year old African man simply cannot understand is: Why on earth would any man find a seasoned prostitute to make a for wife material? It doesn't even matter to me whether the girl is Thai or American. You can't turn a whore into a housewife. You almost deserve to be scammed, in fact, begging for it.Sin sot is honestly speaking not a uniquely Thai concept. If I was to marry traditionally, I would be expected to send my uncles to her uncles to discuss lobola (a sort of fee to show that I am willing to commit to her and the fee is normally not so high that I must be in debt for years on end yet still not so low that I will be keen to take a second wife). Unfortunately, in modern days and a westernized society, this time honoured African tradition has backfired: fewer and fewer men marry. It is seen as an impractical absurd and expensive exercise which honestly is not really helping the man with anything. After all, many couples cohabit, have children and eventually marry at the court. The "face" element of a huge sin sod gained by a bar girl only tells me she must have piles of filth if it requires that much sin sod face wash. You'd probably do better finding a girl away from bars and live a happy scam free life.Personally, I wouldn't kiss a prostitute on her lips, never mind dating one! I'm open minded and have no race issues so whomever I decide to marry, would certainly not be a girl I met selling her body and surely wouldn't be after two week exotic holiday. That's just how I feel, feel free to feel otherwise, just don't go painting millions of Thai women as gold digging whores when really you are the one shopping for fresh and hot baked bread in the frozen food section!I sincerely enjoyed reading up on this blog! TY TTL!
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    • TheThailandLife says

      Hey Jamluv, welcome to TTL! I think it's an important point to make than Sin Sot/sod is not a uniquely Thai concept and, as you note, many countries have variations of the "dowry". Indeed, dowry or not, most women in most countries would prefer not to marry someone poorer than themselves. After all, the monetary system encourages a life of gain, not loss. So at the core this is preprogrammed into society.Clearly there are Thai women, working in prostitution or otherwise "regular" jobs that see a relationship with a foreigner as a path to a wealthier life, and sin sod is part of that path. So yes, it is imperative that foreigners seeking a partner in Thailand don't rush into relationships and date women in the same way they would in their own country. But one also has to respect that sin sod is a tradition that still thrives in all corners of Thai society, not just among bar girls, poor girls, etc. In fact, in the upper echelons of society, it is still a major part of a wedding ceremony and a chance for a man and woman to show others the wealth and success of their family.
      Reply

  108. John Reeves says

    Hi. Probably the best article I have seen on the topic, thanks !One question though. I am a bit in an odd situation.I am getting married in a week. My wife to be is 37, has never been married, left school pretty early, comes from a rural background, and clearly her family doesn't have much. I am a foreigner, same age, who used to have a decent salary working in Thailand but have been unemployed for a year now (so we've lived on my wife 15K salary and tapping in my savings (about 30K a month) during that time).Now when we started talking about the Sin Sod topic, I fell into the opposite situation from the one usually described : i.e. my wife-to-be just didn't want us to give more than 100K, half of it being in gold that she expects her family to return to her (she's done the talking with her mum, probably a mistake from my side I guess).1/ Should I reopen the topic and push to give more ? 2/ Or should I give more separately ? (i.e. a few months after the wedding, when the new job I just found will have made our finances healthier) 3/ Or should I leave this as they are since everything has been discussed and agreed between them ?Any advice will be appreciated....PS: a little bit more information just to avoid misunderstandings – My wife has a respectable job – no bar girl or anything like that – We have been together 3 years and she’s never asked me for money, never – She sends 3K to mum every month & her brother send some money too – Her dad passed away so the mum lives alone with her niece – I feel there may be something broken between my wife and her family since she doesn’t visit them more than once or twice a year, tops, although it’s only a 2-3 hours trip from Bangkok. – but this is THE one topic she never wanted to talk about. I understand there is some form of jealousy, my wife thinking her mum has always been more loving with her brother than with her… – We did set the wedding date before I found my new job here in anticipation of a permanent move to Europe (where it would have been easier for me to find a job in my branch). Although my savings were getting really low, if we left Thailand without making a ceremony and dinner party here for her family and friends I would have felt like I am stealing her from her friends and family !
    Reply

    • TheThailandLife says

      Hi John,I think in terms of the sin sod you have a good situation. Your wife to be obviously respects your financial position and what she is suggesting is fine. I don't think you should reopen the topic or push to give more post the wedding. It's unnecessary. Besides, your wife will most likely want to continue giving a monthly amount to her mother after you're married -- even though technically she isn't dutifully bound to after she marries.Your GF's situation with her family is not uncommon. It is often said that boys are spoilt by their parents in Thailand and get away with murder, so to speak. You'll often find the onus is put on the daughters to provide for their parents and little if anything is expected from the sons. Of course, not every situation is like this, but it is common and I'm yet to figure out how this came to be. Many people speculate that the spoiling of sons during their younger years is responsible for the prevalence of irrational, jealous outbursts, often violent, that occur in male Thai society when they don't get their own way. I don't have any scientific data to prove a correlation, but it somewhat makes sense, and my wife certainly doesn't disagree with this theory.
      Reply

  109. Israel says

    I read article and several comments, responses… now I have an itch on my own about ‘how much I should offer?’ based on my circumstances as I am currently engaged to a Thai woman. I am from U.S.A. Your input will be greatly appreciated. Please read below as I want to share the following information in order for you to assist me on financial calculations:1.-FAMILY NAME: In my own perspective regarding my Thai woman … family name is not an issue/irrelevant for calculation purposes (I could be completely wrong depending on your interpretation after you reading all my remarks)…. However according to her (my Thai woman), her Mother and Father is well known in her ‘village’, they are farm work class family who take care of two grandchildren (from another daughter).I had the opportunity to meet and live for about 5 days with my Thai woman Mother and Father which have a humble house and some farm land, no one has air conditioning and in my eyes I considered them financially disadvantage to a degree because my Thai woman has TWO older sisters*. ONE* sister lives in Chon Buri (near Pattaya city) which is married to a Thai gentleman and (I assume) both send money to my Thai woman’s Father and Mother because they take care of the two grandchildren a boy (about 5 yrs. old) and a girl (about 10 yrs. old). SECOND* sister (or brother, I do not really recall) is married and lives in England, I do not know anything else. I must say that I really like her Mother and Father (and all the characters (friends & family) in their village :)) I tried asking how much should I offer and Father answered with ‘… up to you’, I said we can discuss in the future. The only thing I can say is that I would like to help them monthly basis just like my Thai woman is been doing it (she says she used to send 15,000.00 to 20,000.00 bahts monthly for food.2.-EDUCATION: No University, I believe she finished elementary school or finished or almost finished high school.3.PRIOR MARITAL STATUS: My Thai woman was engaged to a prior gentleman but never married officially and the relationship ended. That is the only information my Thai woman has provided me.4.-DEPENDENTS. None (no children), unless we consider my Thai woman’s Mother & Father.5.-JOB. Please read: I will be honest to you my dear reader, just like I have been telling her to be honest with me and with immigration application for her to come to U.S.A (in progress). I met her at an ‘a-go-go bar’ on April 28, 2016 (before I spent several days in Angkor Wat/Siem Reap Cambodia), she was ‘bar fined’ and even though I could go out with another lady (or many ladies) with me ending up paying a ‘bar fine’ on this or other establishments, I did not do it, so before she left with ‘customer’ I told her I will be back tomorrow. Well next day April 29, 2016 I arrive late again and she just got ‘bar fined’ again, so I paid bar fine for April 30, 2016 (one day prior). I really was intrigued about her and no one else [I like the fact that I never saw her in ‘a go go bar’ outfit or dancing... ever] (believe me when I say –sexuality was set aside in my being- and to tell you the truth I know I am not the most handsome man, but I definitely do not consider myself unattractive and I could continue dating women back in U.S.A. but I have been taken to the cleaners date after date and when I finally married and now I am divorced I just have about $60,000.00 U.S. dollars in debt ). Anyhow on April 30, 2016 I told her about myself and ask her if she likes working there, which she tells me she does it for her mother and father, she tells me she does not like her ‘job,’ she tell me she sends mother and father about 15,000.00 to 20,000.00 bahts. I tell her that I am looking for someone that practice Buddhism, but most importantly someone that is willing to give their heart to a man, not just ‘body’ for compromised. I mentioned I was a combat Veteran in the U.S. military, I done many actions I am not proud off, I accept full responsibility of my past actions and expect no one to judge my past, I tell her I can certainly ignored her past if she is willing to stop working on such environment, why you may ask? because she stole my heart. I left back to U.S.A on May 1, 2016, we kept in touch, and she invites me to go with her family in her village. I book a ticket and I arrive on Thailand May 12, 2016, I tell her that if our relationship is serious, she cannot go back to work to any a go-go bar. She tells me she will stay in her village until comes to U.S.A. with me. One of her brother’s is a Buddhist monk which traveled with her family… wow was he philosophically humanistic insightful! …. --- I don’t know if I should mention to her family (including her brother the Buddhist Monk) about her previous ‘job’ which she did for 6 months… but if we take in consideration this section about ‘JOB’ I don’t really know how kind I should be or not offering at all… --- feedback will be greatly appreciate.6. AGE: 23 yrs. old about to turn 24 yrs. old.Please read above, analyzing fact and my current circumstance ‘should I still offer anything’? Plus, I want to be nice about offering money, but I can only offer a few because of debt, immigration procedures, my own living expenses and most importantly planning a legit future for us. I WOULD be extremely grateful for any input about my writing (please forgive spelling errors and/or side stories, but I just don’t have the time to concentrate for an accurate summary of my inquiry).-IsraelFYI/PS: I told her, “if you want money, tell me how much you want, I will send you the amount you want, (I will find a way to give her the amount as I have a good paying job) and I told her after you received money I will wish you to be happy and you will not hear from me. Don’t break my heart, is all I am asking.”
    Reply

    • TheThailandLife says

      Hi Israel,Sorry for the delayed reply but I had to consult some Thai friends on this question to make sure I'd get this right.Having previously worked as a prostitute is irrelevant when it comes to paying Sin Sod because you are accepting her as she is and choosing to marry her. Therefore a Sin Sod is still due, though of course it would be lower because of her profession. Considering her level of education and family status on the social hierarchy, the social level of Thai man she could expect to marry would probably be able to afford no more than 20,000 Baht, perhaps 50,000 at a stretch.In terms of mentioning to her family where you met her and what she has been doing for a job, don't say anything. They will know already but it won't be discussed or ever mentioned. Moreover, if it gets out as public knowledge among her village and friends and family, she will never recover. Most will probably have some idea and be gossiping anyway. In small-minded village life there isn't much people don't know about each other's business.Lastly, personally I would not mention on the immigration form about her having worked as a go-go dancer. Prostitution is illegal in Thailand and this might trigger a refusal due to doubts over her intentions when visiting the US. You might choose to say bar and not go-go bar. Perhaps you could say she served drinks or something. I'm not saying to lie, but don't give the suggestion that she was working in that capacity -- better to sugar coat the truth a bit.In terms of your own personal welfare, I'd think long and hard about what you are getting yourself in to. Consider for a moment whether you would marry a prostitute in your own country, or a 23 year old for that matter. Her family is clearly very poor, and I fear she, like many others, maybe simply see you as a pay day. Consider how different your lives have been and are currently. What do you have in common? Her education is probably very limited as most of these girls from poor families and do not finish high school.I don't want to come off as judgmental or presumptuous, but you seem like a decent guy, and I think you should take your time to know more about her family, her history and what else may be going on in her life that you don't know about.Right now she is very young and caught up in the bar scene, probably earning pretty good money for selling her body. She is only going to trade this income for something better, which means you will have to provide that better life. And by better life I don't mean in terms of love, compassion and friendship, I mean material gain for her and her family.There are thousands of fantastic single women in Thailand; many financially independent and hardworking. Maybe take your time and look around a while.
      Reply

  111. Jose says

    Hi, I have a gf in bkk. She works and has big, big debts. Spends more then earns. She has a Uni degree, no parents ( they died long ago) and have 8 siblings. She is the youngest. She is 40 never married and no kids. She keeps asking me for money or items to buy or bills to pay. I pay for what she asks many time. I just stayed with her around 21 days in bkk. Now we are fiance and want to marry. She asked me for sin sod to be payed to her siblings, nieces and nephews. I got by surprise as I was not ware of this. I asked her to explain it to me and she gave me this URL.
    Reply

    • TheThailandLife says

      I'd consider carefully before marrying someone who has such big debts and keeps spending and spending. It sounds like you will be getting into a situation that will negatively impact your life long term. If her parents are dead then Sin Sod is not relevant. Perhaps a token Sin Sod to show at the wedding to appropriate the tradition would be nice for her, but Sin Sod is not due. However, if her grand parents bought her up in place of her parents, a Sin Sod would be applicable.
      Reply

  112. Dave says

    I think this article is off by implying that the sin sod amount is automatically kept by the woman's family, in full -- that would in fact be a dowry. My Thai girlfriend and other Thais have told me that sin sod is mainly a "show" of the man's financial ability to take care of the woman and have a family. My gf told me that, if we were to marry, we would join forces to put down a "show" of however much we could pull together. Her parents would keep some, but we'd get most of it back. She comes from a modest Isaan background.An American friend also recently married a Thai woman and for them, the "show" included a title to the condo that he bought as a place for them to live several years before. There was a fair amount of cash put down on the floor at the ceremony, but they got most of it back after the wedding -- and the woman comes from a poor family. Actually the man had been helping the woman's family for some time, like 5,000 THB a month or something. And that's another issue that wasn't factored into this article... If the man has already give the family and/or woman large amounts of money over a long period of time prior to marriage, how does that factor into the sin sod?So I think that Thai women telling foreigners that they have to part with 1-2 million baht, permanently... I think that's them taking advantage of the foreigner's misunderstanding of what sin sod really is. Sin sod is basically proof that the man can take care of the woman. Yes some money is kept by the parents for the "mother's milk" thing but it's usually not anywhere close to the full sin sod amount. That's my understanding.
    Reply

    • TheThailandLife says

      Hi Dave, did you read the article through? Historically that would have been the case, but I stated, and have stated in many comments in this thread, that it is common for an amount to be shown and then returned. The article outlines exactly what Sin Sod is from a traditional point of view, and how it was/is calculated based on Thailand's social hierarchy system. Of course, traditions evolve with time and now things are done differently according to the couple's/family opinions and wants.
      Reply

      • Dave says

        Yes, I read the article through (didn't read all the comments, there are a lot!). It says that some families don't expect sin sod but it just briefly mentions that "it is very rare that money isn’t shown at the wedding"... That's the only mention that I can see of sin sod being a "show" of the man's ability to take care of the woman. But I think that this notion of "show" gets to the root of what sin sod really is in modern Thailand.The article mentions a woman "commanding 100 million baht" and how "any man marrying a Thai woman must pay sin sod"... These statements are true but they should be accompanied by a clearer explanation that these "payments" don't qualify as "payments" in the Western sens of the word, where someone puts down money and never sees it again. The 100 million baht was almost certainly not kept by the parents of the singer, but that isn't clear in the article.I think that the biggest misconception of sin sod among foreigners is that it's an actual payment, as in "poof," it's gone, but that's not usually the case among Thai people. (That's my understanding anyway; I'm not an expert.) I also think that some Thai women take advantage of this misconception by demanding large sums of money that would qualify as a dowry -- never to be returned. And I think that this is the main aspect of sin sod that needs to be cleared up for foreigners.With that said, I think it's a good article with a lot of good info.
        Reply

    • Ant says

      So this topic came up with me and my gf from Thailand as well. We are similar aged (late twenties), both of us are educated (uni) and she comes from a respectable Isaan family.As far as how i understood it from her the sin sod also goes back to "us", or at least partly, and we'll get a farmland. The amount of sin sod wasn't important, it's something she and I would decide depending on how much we could put on the table that day. I explained her it wouldn't be much since i obviously didn't prepare my whole life for this as we dont have this culture in the west. This wasn't a problem at all.I think any guy being asked for a high sin sod (or other gifts) should really start wondering who they really are getting married with.
      Reply

  113. Tod Daniels says

    Most of you guys have your heads so far up your own asses no one can hear you speak! There is NO thai in this country who would want to marry "down", yet that's all foreigners seem to do here. Come here and marry a dark, dumb, 5th grade drop out from a one buffalo village in Nakhon Nowhere.. The thai guys are NOT jealous, they just can't get their minds around why someone (who to them has money) would come here and marry a hill-billy, then proceed to buy land in their name, build houses in their name, give them a 'salary' to sit on their fat asses AND move them into a socio-economic segment of the society they are ill-equipped to interact in and deal with.
    Reply

    • TheThailandLife says

      Hey Tod, marrying down does happen. My wife's sister married down. Her father permitted it based on the fact that he was a kind, hardworking guy. I have no interest in using wealth and education as assets to evaluate a person's worth, but to flip your point on its head: what if a person sees all human beings as equal, and sees money, family lineage and material wealth as vacuous and a shallow, unintelligent way of evaluating a person's worth?What if a person sees compassion, kindness and generosity as more reliable points of evaluation of a person's worth; and friendship, companionship and love as more important assets in a relationship. In this case, such as person wouldn't care less where a woman was born, how much money she had or what the small-minded village folk were saying about her.Sure, there are foreigners that make the mistake of falling for a young girl in a mini-skirt and high heels and throw all their money down the toilet to meet her demands, but this sure isn't exclusive to Thailand; I've seen many a friend back home lose their mind, money and integrity over a woman. There are thousands of successful Thai-foreign relationships/marriages filled with fun, love and happiness, as there are in other countries too.I agree with you that the Thai guys are not jealous of an uneducated single mother from a poor family having an intimate relationship with a foreigner, but they may well be jealous of the lifestyle and experiences she acquires as a result.The times are a changing though. An increasing number of middle-class Thai women are going out with foreigners too. This has become massively noticeable in the last few years, particularly in Bangkok. Sure, the couples are usually around the same age, and being educated the women speak fairly good English, but gone are the days when only the stereotypical woman you describe in your comment has a foreign BF. In fact, three women I know date foreign teachers who earn less and are far poorer in monetary terms than they are.
      Reply

      • Tod Daniels says

        You are correct. My broad brushing was more than a little politically incorrect. However on the subject of sin-sod. I have never ever seen a thai guy pay a baht of it when marrying a "second-hand", "gently-used" thai woman who has kids by a previous relationship. YET I know more foreigners than I can count who did just that. Also, almost to a person when the marriage is thai/thai all or a great portion of the sin-sod ion display s returned immediately after the dog-n-pony show event that comprises a thai wedding. It's just for "show" (because these people are all consumed about gaining, getting, giving and doing anything to not "lose" the mythical beast know as "face"). The same cannot be said in most foreign/thai marriages.
        Reply

  114. sam says

    What is an acceptable sin sod for a 26 year old girl with high school education who works in a bar, never been married and no children? Ok she is considered beautiful by normal standards but I would not say she is hard working.
    Reply

    • TheThailandLife says

      When you say works in a bar, do you mean she is a "working girl", so to speak, or bar staff, as in serving drinks and food? If the former, the problem is, you couldn't openly say to those attending your wedding that you aren't paying sin sod or paying a small sin sod because she was a prostitute, as this would destroy her family's reputation forever, and probably your relationship. So in this case I'd treat it as the latter – perhaps it is the latter (I don't want to assume, that's why I asked) – and say 100-150k. At the end of the day there are cultural guidelines, as detailed in the post, but each relationship is different. Some marriages have no sin sod, others just show money for the ceremony and take it back, some give the sin sod to the parents as a retirement/house-improving gift, some give a huge sin sod to reflect their wealth and show off their status in society.
      Reply

  115. Peter says

    It is true if you get marred to thai girl then divorce it's 50/50 but if you buy house before get marred and the house in her name then you can't get anything just make sure you marred first and if you want buy apartment if you buy in your name make sure you buy before being marred because if you buy after marry she can get half. If buy before marred she not In titled to any thing remember you should not pay any dowry marriage must be from love alone not money
    Reply

  116. Wesley says

    Hello I am not sure if you have covered this request in your information as I did not read all your Qand A s. However if a Australian was to marry in Thailand does the same separation laws generally apply . Ie split of assets 50 /50 etc. I am planning to marry my Thai girlfriend of 3 years in Thailand however as I have been through divorce before with a Australian girl I am very concerned of this commitment and what implications legally could occur should the marriage fail. I understand you are not a divorce lawyer however a indication would help me .Kind Regards
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    • TheThailandLife says

      Hey Wesley, it's quite straight forward actually: In the event of a divorce, Thai law views property in two ways: 1. Property acquired before the marriage (Sin Suan Tua). 2. Property acquired during the marriage (Sin Somros). Property that falls under Sin Somros will usually be split 50-50 by the courts, which is viewed as the most reasonable arrangement. If property claimed to be under Sin Suan Tua is disputed successfully, it will be considered Sin Somros. However, pre-nuptials are common and can be arranged through any reputable lawyer. Bear in mind that this applies to property/assets in Thailand, not assets acquired in your home country during the marriage; the court can't rule on those.
      Reply

      • Bazza says

        HiJust like to say how useful I find your comments.I've met a Thai girl aged 35, she's made no secret of the fact she's had western bfs in the past. However she's very keen to get married in the future (near future). She has mentioned sin-son and building a house - made it clear she doesn't want to live in a condo ! Mmmm I wonder why ?My big worry is if we marry and it all goes wrong what if any claim would she have on my assets in the UK ? Can I protect these with a pre-nup ?Many thanksBazza
        Reply

        • TheThailandLife says

          I'd be very cautious about rushing in, and certainly weary of any talk of building a house and sin sod so early on. I'd date a woman for at least a couple of years before getting into any talk like that. I hate to say it but this leans on the side of the type of woman foreigners often describe as those to steer clear of -- e.g. those seeking a foreign man as a walking ATM. I could be wrong, and hope so, but please be cautious.A pre-nup won't help on a house in Thailand because you won't own the house she builds, on her land. You could buy a house that is part of a complex which offers foreign ownership, but I assume she is talking about building in her home town.Any assets you own in the UK are protected. She won't have a claim to those. Read this post here though for some advice.
          Reply

    • Ken says

      Well, I’m going to let that last comment slide because it actually gave me a pretty good chuckle. And just to set the record straight I have never spent any more on Thai girlfriends than I have on American or Japanese girlfriends. Like I said before, I like strong independent women.Anyway I won’t say much more because, quite frankly, I don’t think it would be very sporting of me to engage in a battle of wits with an obviously unarmed person. But the bottom line is you insulted a bunch of people you don’t even know by calling them stupid and you needed to be called out on it. So now you just need to take your licks like a man and move on (and hopefully learn something).
      Reply

  119. Peter says

    I'm not saying I'm smarter I have lived in Thailand for 10 years when I meet my wife I was not looking I think guys are to quick to look for wife it's all about love if you have girls that only with you for better life is not love if I die tomorrow my wife can look after her self it is hard to find the girls like that it took me 8 years before I find girl to marry my girl is Inlove with me that's what you should be looking for is thai girl that loves you my girl I come first over her parents I'm no 1 if girl not put you first then you should run away as fast as you can as for paying family to help support them that's ok if guys like that up to them lots guys just lazy to find the well educated girls who have good income and good family it is hard to get good educated girls because they work hard and not go out much all my wife friends are single they like to be in relationship so there's lots good girls out there you just need to look
    Reply

  120. Peter says

    Hi first of pay no sin sod if you pay that you are more stupid then she is I think there is no smart guys who marry thai girls I'm marred to thai girl I payed no sin sod she payed half the wedding and we both pay half in our relationship all her money go to us she don't send anything to her family her income and mine join together if you pay or support girl you have no brains
    Reply

    • Ken says

      Truth be told, I think that traditions like these are rather silly myself. Nevertheless I do NOT disrespect the beliefs of others. And I certainly do not call people “stupid” for choosing to go along with these traditions, because to do so, quite frankly, would make me a self-important jerk who thinks he is smarter than everyone else. And lets face it, based on your atrocious lack of English grammar skills you are not really in a position to be calling anyone stupid.Anyway, I will probably never have to worry about Sin Sod myself because I tend to be attracted to strong independent non-traditions girls. But that doesn’t mean that my future wife and I can’t make a mutual decision to do something nice for the parents, even if we both think it’s a little silly ourselves. And besides, the average Sin Sod of 300,000 Baht is only about the same as the cost of a very nice wedding dress here in the states – something that will be worn only once. And I have had girlfriends in Japan who paid the equivalent of more than $10,000 for their Kimonos. And they will only wear these a few times in their lives. So, in the grand scheme of things Sin Sod is not really that outrageously expensive.I think the problem here is that you are one of those people who needs to feel like they are more savvy than everyone else. I see this sort of thing all the time on Internet discussion boards. For example people will claim that a particular photo is photo shopped or a particular story is bogus. Of course they are wrong half of the time because, rather than having any actual skills at identifying these types of things, they are just so cynical that they tend to think everything is bogus. Also they have this compulsive need to let the world know that they spotted the supposed ploy before anyone else and are therefore very street smart savvy people while everyone else is gullible and stupid. And they often need to put others down in order to feel good about themselves.As for you not having to support your wife at all, and her not sending money home, that is just a matter of you getting lucky - nothing more, nothing less. Your girlfriend’s family is either wealthy enough to take care of themselves or she is completely estranged from her family. Anyway, if a person should choose to marry a girl from a dirt poor family there is nothing wrong with him helping out her family. And in many cases you can support them for less than what you pay for your cable TV bill back home. What kind of heartless idiot is too cheap to cough up that paltry amount every month in order to help out his wife’s family? But, like I said before, this is all about you needing to feel like you are smarter than everyone else.
      Reply

  121. Ross says

    I am due to marry in February next year and we have agreed to do a show sinsord of 200-250000baht or we might do it as £4000-5000. The question I ask is, as this will go back in the UK account, whats the best way of bringing the money or withdrawing the money in Thailand? We have concluded to show in £ but are obviously anxious about bringing that much cash on the 2 16hr journeys to and from Thailand. Any advice?
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    • TheThailandLife says

      Hey Ross, the best way is a transfer into a Thai bank account and then withdraw it a day or so before the ceremony. If your ceremony is on a working day, arrange with the local branch to collect it in the morning. If not, most decent hotels have safety deposit boxes where you keep the only key, so that's one possible place to keep it safe. In regards to the transfer, check out my post on Transfer wise here. I'm using this service and you can save a lot on transfer and exchange rate fees.
      Reply

    • Martin1 says

      I have put my sin sod (as Euro bills) in my cabin luggage. No one knew, and I had an eye on it the whole flight.And I changed it at Superrich in the basement of Suvarnabhumi airport. They have great exchange rates for both buying and selling Thai Baht.
      Reply

  122. Jason says

    I met my Thai gf on line and I am on my second visit to Thailand. I purchased an engagement ring and of course now face the ominous task of of blending cultures and sorting out sin-sod.My gf tells me that many have paid 1 to 2 million in sin-sod and paid it with gold and money during the engagement.She just turned 35, graduated with a degree in agriculture and works as a secretary in Bangkok. She is unmarried and has no children. I am much older. Her family comes from a country farm and older brothers and sisters provide support.I was unaware that the presentation of sin-sod was to be done at engagement?Is is necessary for gold to be presented at the engagement? Or money? or both?Would 300,000 baht be a fair offer that would not result in the family losing face?This article and column have been very helpful in addressing a very complex and emotional topic.
    Reply

    • TheThailandLife says

      The presentation of sin sod is generally done at the wedding, but it depends on whether the engagement and wedding are done on the same or separate days. Some do the engagement in the morning and the wedding in the afternoon nowadays. If the engagement is done on a separate day, gifts such as gold are usually given. Have a read of this comprehensive guide to a traditional Thai wedding Personally I'd look at combining the two on the same day and giving some gold along with the sin sod.I'd say 300k is about right, considering she graduated with a good degree, hasn't been married before and has no kids. If she were to marry a Thai of similar status, it would be between 200-300k, in my experience.As I've said before, don't get drawn into letting your GF suggest/dictate what the amount should be or what is expected. It isn't up to her, it is up to her parents. I would suggest you meet with them and first tell them that you'd like to marry their daughter and ask for their blessing. Then bring up sin sod.Unless you are a rich man and can afford to, don't hand over 1-2MB. If they want to show 1MB and give it back to you, that's fine. If you want to give them this sort of money as a gift, and you can afford it, then I strongly suggest having a money management strategy in place. I don't know your GF's family, and they may be very good with money, but there is many a story of money being squandered with nothing to show for it, not to mention relatives sniffing around for handouts.Lastly, you are probably hearing this from a fair few people, but have you thought about dating for a little longer? This is only your second trip. I know you've been having a long distance relationship online, but it would be sensible to spend a considerable amount of time in Thailand getting to know the your GF and her family on Thai turf before making this big commitment, and paying the associated wedding costs.
      Reply

    • Ken says

      I just had to chime in here and I have to say I’m in 100% agreement with TTL’s final comments. I mean, why on earth would you want to marry someone, either in Thailand or in your own country, whom you had spent so little time with? Unless you have been in Thailand for many, many months on this latest visit you can’t possible know each other well enough to be considering marriage. Also I would like to point out that for most western men it takes much longer to truly know a Thai woman than it does an American women. And this is doubly true if you do not speak each other’s native language very well.So just what exactly is the rush? After all, if you are planning to move to Thailand permanently then you can just live together for 6-months or so before you tie the knot. You really need to live with someone to find out all the things that bug you about each other. And if you are an American and are planning to bring her back here then I believe it is actually easier to get her in on a fiancé visa than it is to get her in as your existing wife. Also with the finance visa you have either 3 or 6 months (cant remember which) before you have to get married once in the country. This gives you plenty of time to get to know each other and possibly change your mind if things do not pan out. Also it gives you time to see how well she is adjusting to life in your country. You see, unlike the Philippines where pretty much every girl wants to relocate to a western country, most Thai women would much prefer to remain in Thailand with their western husbands or boyfriends. And many just don’t adjust well to life in other countries.Anyway, wouldn’t you rather know all this before getting married? So again I ask: what’s the rush? After all I’ve never known a Thai women to withhold sex until after marriage like some Christian women do. And if she did, or was just generally in a rush to get married, I would be very suspicious of her underlying motives. On the other hand of course, at 35 I’m guessing that her biological clock is really ticking and this may be her last chance to get married.It’s your life of course, and your decision to make, but I have to say, I just don’t get it. I will tell you something that I tell everyone, everywhere, who is contemplating marriage. Basically, if you are with the right person you are going to stay together for a very long time, married or not. And if it’s the wrong person it will soon fall apart, married or not. The only difference is that breakups are much more destructive, both financially and emotionally, when one is married. Every relationship has a finite life span, and that life span is pretty much the same whether you are married or not.
      Reply

      • Jason says

        I so appreciate both of your comments, especially while I am in the process of living this in vivo.I knew there was the element of Sin Sod, but guess I wasn't prepared to deliver it all at engagement. We both regret that we didn't communicate about it over the many months we have known each other.We are planning to initiate the K-1 and I am fortunate that my intended fiance' is willing and motivated to relocate to the US. I had a totally positive and delightful visit with the family and the extended family in the farming village and they remind me of my family of origin roots in the Midwest.My confusion came from her comments about 1-2 million baht as a Sin-sod. I am starting to put the pieces together tho. She lived with a wealthy business man for a couple of years and they were engaged, but never followed through with marriage. He left and returned to the US. Perhaps he provided a robust engagement Sin-Sod and she feels her parents would expect me to do the same or more, in as much as I am a professional.I am encouraged by the meeting with family and again I thank you for your good guidance.All of this has been a good mind check and has both of us slowing down and planning in a more effective and less emotionally driven way.I fully agree that a chance for her to visit the US for a couple of weeks is in order, followed by a long stay after the K1 approval comes through (90 days). Very prudent for both of us.It is so much easier to wade into the pool, than jump into the deep end and find oneself drowning.
        Reply

  123. Kevin says

    Wow. Great Blog. Wish I had read this a few years back.Anyways, I met a Thai girl for 3 months last year and we kept in touch via Skype. She said she was from Samoeng and that her family was poor. Ok, I get it. I was trying to teach her English in my spare time, but she has a real mental block (although she can write in English 'mini-letters'). Anyway, when I was back in the States we talked about me coming back to Thailand and living together. Definitely, a few red flags came up during that time. They were: 1) Her still being on a dating website every week; 2) Asking for a million baht to start a store; 3) Saying she needed money for this and that, and obviously, I could sense there was a lack of truth in what she was telling me.In short, I told her I wasn't 'a walking ATM machine' and her words then were: "I will stop this evil.'To be honest, this situation is much more multidimensional then I can write here. To be fair to her, she has refused my money on more than several occasions, too, and has de-emphasized it.To make a longer story -- even more short, she wound up pregnant and we just had a baby together. Obviously, now the situation is a lot more complicated. I want to take care of the baby, but if she doesn't start speaking English (as I only speak functional Thai, at best) this marriage-to-be won't work --as I've repeatedly told her. We used to talk for 30 minutes a day but when we have lived together for the past week or so she rarely speaks to me now that she's busy with the baby.In regards to the baby, I've named him Dante and what frustrates me is that she and her mother rarely use his real name, if at all. As others on this blog have noted, you don't marry and start a family, but you marry her family as well, as the mother-in-law is sleeping in the same bedroom as we take care of our newborn.I'm afraid now my son will just speak Thai and Karen and his mother and their tribe will be much more dominant in his life than I will ever be unless I take him back to the U.S.I haven't been hit up for Sin Sod and I guess if you read this you might conclude that I lack 'logic' or a 'reality check'. But to the contrary, I have always been a level headed guy, and simply thought that things would work out between the both of us. Perhaps, the genuine truth is an amalgamation of the good and the bad, and they can't be separated so easily.And to make things even more complicated, I do love her and in her way, she does love me as we have spent a lot of quality time together. I trust that she hasn't cheated on me. But she probably has looked at me as a way to step up in the world although she seemed genuinely happy if I lived for a long time in her village, which I am not ready to do at all.Constructive comments are welcomed -- 'the snarky need not apply'.
    Reply

    • Ken says

      If you had asked a year ago I definitely would have had some advice for you. At this point however you have gotten yourself in so deep that it seems like you are way past the point of advice and that you are just going to have to see how things play out.As for your kid learning English I would not worry too much about that. That is, assuming you and your girlfriend stay together and he lives with both of you. Children who have multi-lingual parents pretty much always pick up both languages. Also when Americans have children in Thailand or other foreign countries they almost always enroll them in international schools where they will be around other kids who also speak English. I’m sure they probably have such schools in Chiang Mai, which is where you and your girlfriend should be living anyway. It’s still close to the in-laws but not so close that they will be in your face all the time. And personally - although I’m very much a give and take kind of guy – I never let a women dictate how and where we are going to live our lives. And any woman who is not independent enough to live separately from her parents would not be the kind of person I would be with in the first place.As far as your girlfriend learning English is concerned I have a feeling that the only way this will happen is if you take her back to the States where she will be immersed in the Language. Of course it could take many, many years to get her in. And even if she does learn English you might just find that the two of you still have some serious communication problems that have nothing to do with language.
      Reply

      • Ken says

        Oh, and one more thing. I would not worry too much about what they are calling your son. Pretty much every Thai woman I’ve ever met has a nickname and I imagine it’s the same with boys. So even if you had given your son a Thai name they might still be calling him by a different name. In other words, I don’t think your girlfriend and her mother are trying to undermine your authority as the dad by not using the kids given name. Of course the author of this site knows much more than I do about these sorts of things and he can probably tell you for sure.
        Reply

    • TheThailandLife says

      To echo what Ken said: I think to give your relationship a proper chance you need to move away together, be it to a nearby city or back to the states. It wasn't clear whether you are living in the village now together or you are just visiting. Anyway, small things like the baby being called by names other than his birth name are already annoying you, and there will no doubt be other cultural differences that will get to you going forward. If your GF moves away with you and is immersed in your culture and learning the language, she will no doubt see the benefits for your son and want him to continue leading that new life.At the end of the day, it seems like you kind of fell into this situation without a plan, which is life, sometimes. While it may not be ideal, the massive positive is your son, so focus on doing what's best for him, which is undoubtedly giving him the most secure, loving upbringing possible, and of course the best education you can provide. There are lots of great schools in cities like Chiang Mai, which I'm assuming is the closest big city to her village. Or, if you need to be in the states to earn a good salary, make plans with your GF to return there.The only potential problem you have is if things don't work out between you and your GF wants to live in her village with your son. She is the mother and it would be unreasonable to consider separating them, and you'd have trouble doing so anyway. That said, anyone who gets involved with a woman from another country faces this potential issue.
      Reply

  124. John R says

    Use negotiating skills. It's a show of how fiscally secure you are. Thais respect those who can negotiate properly. Ultimately, the higher the sinsot to her parents, the less money you have to take care of the daughter.
    Reply

  125. namplaa says

    Great article and thread TTL I need some advice. I’ve been with a gf for past year and a half and we want to get married. She’s 31, never married /had bf before/, no kids, holds bachelor’s degree. She comes from a small Karen hill tribe, farming village in northern Thailand and is Catholic /as the whole village is/. I’m 40, teacher. I met her family once, they seem down to earth, hardworking people. Now, every time I ask her for sin sod she changes the subject or says I should discuss it with her family, which I believe is a good sign. The problem is I have no idea how much should I pay. I know that when her 5 years younger sister /no education/ got married to a Thai man he had paid 100k. Any ideas on how much I would be expected to give? Don’t know if that’s relevant but previously my gf was working for The Royal Project but she didn’t really like it so she opened a small mushroom farm in her village. I was happy to pay for it 100k + another 100k within next few months to buy some equipment and expand the business. The farm is on her family’s land. Thanks, namplaa
    Reply

    • TheThailandLife says

      Hi Naamplaa, your GF is absolutely correct in that this is something you need to discuss with her parents. Indeed, this is a good sign: As I have said before, traditionally, it is not up to the lady to stipulate the amount; it is for the groom's parents to discuss with the bride's parents or the groom, depending on the situation.Some would say that since you have contributed to the family business you should not have to pay a sin sod or should pay a smaller amount, but again I must reiterate that this type of gift cannot suddenly be linked to sin sod and used as some sort of bargaining tool.If we are to strictly adhere to the traditional way of accessing sin sod, in this case I would say not more than 200k. If you look at her sister's situation and work upwards from there, taking into account the fact that your GF has no kids, has not been married before, was a virgin (presumably because of no previous BF) and has a degree, and factor in family/societal status, this amount makes sense.
      Reply

  126. PSimon says

    Need some advice.I met my Thai wife in a western country when she was studying here. We also live in the same western country. I paid all the Spenser for our Western wedding several years ago. We both work but I earn considerably more than her because she works part time only so I pay all the bills and living expenses for both of us including an annual trip to Thailand and other overseas trips occasionally. She gets to keep all the money she makes from her part time work. We have no children and I am told I am the only boyfriend she had before we married. She is in her early 30s and holds a bachelors degree, her family are middle class Thais who work in Bangkok and with homes in Bangkok and Chiangmai. They own successful businesses and the father is a well respected and high ranking professional.Recently my wife asked if we could have a Thai style wedding. This is something that we had discussed since the start of our relationship and I was aware of the sin sot tradition which does not sit well with me. My wife stated that the wedding would cost 10,000 $ and that in consideration of my feelings re. Sin sot if I would pay the $10,000 for the wedding she would use her savings to buy gold for the sin sot and that her mum would also contribute some cash for show at the wedding in lieu of sin sot.So far so good. I agreed, thinking it would be nice for my wife and her family to be able to enjoy seeing us renew our vows in a traditional Thai wedding (even though we are already legally married and have been for several years.)Arrangements are underway and over 100 guests have already been invited to the wedding which is to be held in Thailand towards the end of the year.Yesterday my wife asks if I would also withdraw 30,000$ in cash on top of the 10,000$ already budgeted for the wedding and take this to Thailand to show at the wedding as sin sot with the understanding this cash will be returned to me after the wedding. I said no. There are so many reasons that I can't even begin to list here including security of the money (risk of loss or theft), limits on how much cash can be carried internationally etc. Above all else if this money were to be lost for any reason it would be a major blow to me financially. It has taken me many years to accumulate a nest egg and we need that to provide financial security for myself and my wife. Taking it all out in cash half way around the world just to flash it around to "have face" in the hope it will come safely back again is just lunacy in my view and I told my wife so.So how my wife and I who have always been so happily married for years are hardly talking to each other and I'm left wishing I'd never agreed to a Thai style wedding in the first place. I This is not the deal I agreed to. It was to be $10,000 and sure I understand the budget can creep up a bit. But another $30,000 cash on the promise "don't worry darling mum and dad will give you back after the wedding." It would take me years to save that money again with the cost of living in my country.I'm already proving every single day that I can look after my wife well - she has everything she needs and doesn't have to pay for anything at all, no bills, nothing. Am I being unreasonable here?I've offered to produce a bank statement at the wedding to show how much money we have together if it's really about proving I have the means to care for my wife financially. We could show that at the wedding instead img of taking tens of thousands of dollars in cash half way around the world. That suggestion went down like a lead balloon - a flat out no.Similarly I got a flat out no to the suggestion that the family use the $10,000 as a sin sot and pay for the wedding costs since in my culture the parents of the bride traditionally pay for the wedding. We would be meeting half way and respecting each other's cultures if this suggestion were accepted. Once again flat out no.What should I do? I can feel the hostility palpably whenever I am near my wife and until now we have always been happy. But there is no way I am willing to carry that money around the world in cash, nor am I willing to transfer it to a Thai bank account where anything could happen to it. I worked too hard for that money and it is our security, which is supposedly exactly what the sin sot was supposed to be about in the first place!Any advice anyone because presently I feel like running away from my wife and becoming a monk. I'm not joking.
    Reply

    • Ken says

      I am by no means an expert on Sin Sod, or Thai marriage customs in general, but I do know about people and relationships and it sounds to me like you have more of a general relationship issue than a cultural one. Basically it sounds like you married someone that you did not know nearly as well as you thought you did. And the two of you just don’t seem to have the level of communication, mutual understanding, and trust that two people should always have before they even consider getting married.For example you do not seem to trust her when she says that her parents will definitely return the money to you. But the bottom line is, she should know her parents well enough to make that call, and you should know her well enough to trust her judgement on the matter.And as for her part she seems to be unwilling to try and see things from your point of view or to compromise at all on things that are really important to her (or to her parents in this case). But this is nothing new. Unfortunately many Thai women have a mentality and a temperament which is very similar to that of a small child. In other words they are sweet as can be as long as everything is going their way but the moment they do not, you have a big problem on your hands. And rather than talking it out rationally they will often just pout and get pissy or sometimes just cut the communication lines completely. And girls like yours definitely do not want to disappoint their parents and they certainly are not capable of standing up to them.Also you have to remember that marriage in Thailand today is not all that different than is was in the West back in Jane Austin’s day. Back then financial viability was much more important than love and women from poor families had to marry a man who could support her family. And even the wealthy upper class types (like yours) would only let their sons and daughters marry someone from another prestigious family in order to give their own family even more social status. Heck, even royalty often married for political reasons rather than personal ones. Of course this does not mean that these couple sometimes did not also love each other. And Thai wives certainly also love their Farang husbands in many cases.But unfortunately I’m afraid even love is not enough to sustain a long lasting relationship. For any relationship to work a couple has to not only be compatible emotionally and physically (sexually) but intellectually and psychologically as well. And its extremely rare to find a Western/Thai couple that is compatible in these last two categories.You’ll notice by the way that I did not mention cultural compatibility and this is because cultural compatibility is merely a sub component of psychological compatibility. In other words it’s our psychological makeup which determines how strictly we adhere to tradition and social conventions (how seriously we take these thing). It is also true that as societies mature and evolve over time these cultural traditions become less and less important in general to that society. In fact, given enough time, even women in the Middle East will be equal to men and religious fundamentalism will be a thing of the past.In the meantime however, dating someone from a culture that is at a different point on this evolutionary scale than your own is bound to be fraught with pit falls. Especially when you consider the fact that the huge majority of people are, to a greater or lesser degree, a product of their environments.Anyway if I were you I would just cough up the money and stop worrying so much about it (I’m sure you can find a safe way to get it there). That is unless you think your wife is some kind of con-women who only married you to cheat you out of your life savings (kind of an absurd notion). And if something should happen to the money just tell your wife that she now needs to contribute most of her salary to making up that loss. Even working part time it would probably take her less than 5 years to save up the $30,000 since you are paying all the living expenses.Or you could always just divorce her and marry some poor Issan girl and then you would not have to worry about such a large Sin Sod. But is that really what you want? The bottom line is, if you want to be married to an educated high-class Thai women then you have to be willing to fork over the dough.
      Reply

      • TheThailandLife says

        A fair answer, in particular your comment:
        Also you have to remember that marriage in Thailand today is not all that different than is was in the West back in Jane Austin’s day. Back then financial viability was much more important than love and women from poor families had to marry a man who could support her family. And even the wealthy upper class types (like yours) would only let their sons and daughters marry someone from another prestigious family in order to give their own family even more social status
        I'd add to this that in the upper echelons of British society, and in many other countries around the world, this is still the case.You also noted:
        For any relationship to work a couple has to not only be compatible emotionally and physically (sexually) but intellectually and psychologically as well. And its extremely rare to find a Western/Thai couple that is compatible in these last two categories.
        I'd add here that this is quite rare to find in any country. Can you have it all? I'm not so sure. Most of us will be lucky just to find someone loyal, honest and kind. Is that enough? Perhaps, depending on where you are at in your life. All relationships require an on-going investment of time, understanding and compassion. Great sex, or at least one's interest in sex with their partner, more often than not wanes over time, so it's important to be best friends too - as this will be what keeps you together in old age. Our opinions, intellect and emotions evolve with age. For many this means growing apart, while others find ways to satisfy different aspects of their personality through friendships outside of the marriage, hobbies, clubs, etc.
        Reply

        • Ken says

          Yes, you are absolutely correct when you say it is also rare in any country. In fact I almost wrote that very thing but then got too lazy and left it out. I also completely agree with everything else you said, particularly about people changing and evolving over time and not always in the same direction. Its really uncanny how we seem to be on the exact same wavelength here.Anyway, as far as Thai/Farang relationships go I have never tried to discourage them. In fact, I remember I once wrote a rebuttal on another site to all the naysayers who were saying its stupid to marry a Thai woman. Basically I said that even here in the USA the average marriage last less than two years and that we could probably all just draw names out of hat to find our wives and beat those odds. So with those abysmal marriage statistics how can you say someone is asking for trouble by marrying a Thai woman? How could we do any worse than we already are after all? Also, I have a friend here who has been married to a Thai women for over 20 years. Thats longer than any other couple I know.
          Reply

  127. Richardw86 says

    I am planning to ask my Thai girlfriend to marry me. So as I'm sure most people here have, I have spent many a free moment researching sin sot and Thai tradition surrounding it. Only to remain pretty confused (this post did help me understand the reasons behind it a little more. Others saw it from a more aggressive point of view) Anyway my question is like others, how much should I expect to offer? Myself and my girlfriend have spoken about her past relationships and one in particular. Her ex (Thai) asked to marry her and was asked for 200,000 baht and gold (khong man). At the time she was studying and working. Since then however she has dropped out of school and has no degree and also hasn't been working for a while. Would this change things at all? Or should I expect to be asked for the same or even more because I am farang? Any help would be greatly appreciated. To add her ex did not want to pay and so did not marry her in the end so she has never been married Thanks
    Reply

    • TheThailandLife says

      Hi Richard, being a foreigner doesn't/shouldn't change the amount. However, note that a wealthy Thai man would always take the opportunity of sin sod to show off his wealth, so in this respect, when a Thai woman marries a wealthy man, it is the norm for a big sin sod to be involved. However, wealthy Thai men usually marry into wealthy Thai families, and vice versa. Though there are exceptions, of course. This is where the expecation for a foreigner to pay a higher sin sod than the average Thai man comes from; because of the presumed higher wealth.To answer the question, 200k is about right. Most Thai weddings between average Thais are somewhere around this mark today.
      Reply

    • Richie S says

      May I also add to TTL's comments above that while 200k might be about right for a modern Thai wedding, if any of the above it makes you uncomfortable you should have a good think about what you're in for.I met my Thai ex-wife in my Western home country while she was studying and working. Despite coming from a wealthy family and having parents living the high life, there was constant pressure from her to send money to them. Constant requests to buy things and send them to Thailand for her mother to give away to show off to their friends (lots of face to be gained with gifts of Western face creams, apparently). I'm anti-face even by Western standards, and was constantly confronted by it.I wasn't getting scammed, her brothers were sending more money home than she was. She also earned more than she ever gave, but you don't have the spending/investing power of a couple when one person is paying for another person's luxuries.I wasn't comfortable with it all and it caused huge fractures. As time went by her family felt more and more like a boat anchor. And this is from a family where I was directly told that there was to be no Sin Sod at the wedding (except the one they faked, for face). We made about 300,000 Thai baht on the wedding day, profit after expenses. Generous, fun, happy, welcoming family, but nevertheless a THAI family, with values and ideas of family very different to mine.You don't start a family with a Thai girl, you join the family of a Thai girl. Make sure that's really for you before you commit to it, because it doesn't all end with Sin Sod, they're for life.
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      • TheThailandLife says

        Thanks for sharing that Richie. I've heard similar things from a few guys married who married into well-to-do families. One thing I'd add is that this "face" thing is the same in other cultures too. I've heard the same about Chinese culture, Indian culture, Iranian culture and others.
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  128. Michael M says

    My Thai Fiancee and I are planning to get married shortly and I don't want to be a farang kee nok, but I am already paying for her Visa to the US, which will cost me about $5k to $10k and I am curious about the amount of Sin Sod. She has already been married, has one adult child and is in her early 40's. I read that because of that, I shouldn't have to pay a Sin Sod, However, the last thing I would want to do is make her lose face, she is going to be my wife after all. But being Thai, she of course will not offer a hint to the amount and being a farang in the US, I am clueless. Should I offer something like 150,000 Baht? Or would that be insulting? Any suggestions? Thanks, Michael
    Reply

    • TheThailandLife says

      The rule that sin sod is not applicable on a second marriage is an urban myth, though certainly, unless the woman is famous or from a well-to-do family, it will usually be less than the first marriage. I know a Thai woman who has been married twice, to Thai men, and sin sod was presented at the second wedding.One thing that is clear about this tradition is that the amount is to be decided between the parents of the two families. It is not for the daughter to decide this matter. Many foreigners find themselves being dictated to by their GF, when in fact the GF does not have the say in this. If your parents are unable to discuss this with her family, then you should discuss this with her parents. Whatever they accept from you will be the amount, regardless of what your GF thinks.I understand you are laying out a lot for the visa, but culturally this would not be seen as part of the sin sod or as something that in some way offsets the agreed amount.The reason being that this money cannot be invested by the family or for your GFs future, though any sensible person could see that this is an investment in her future, which will benefit her even if you divorce because she will most likely be able to stay in the US. Other foreigners often find themselves in the same boat, having already paid for expensive things for the family and GF and then expected to pay sin sod.The first thing I would establish is whether they are seeking to keep the sin sod or simply show it for face at the wedding. As I have said previously, it is very common now for an amount to be shown and then a small percentage of this amount to be gifted to the family.At the end of the day, whatever the outcome of the discussion, don't pay more than you can comfortably afford to, if that is they are seeking to keep the money.
      Reply

      • Michael M says

        Thank you for your answer, I will take heed of your advice. I wouldn't want either my fiancee or her family to lose face, but on the same note I don't want to break the bank either. I just want to be fair and not be a farang kee nok. Thanks again, Michael
        Reply

  129. Andy says

    Hi there.. Me and my gf. are getting married soon. So the talk about Sin Sod came up.. I already knew about this, but not enough.. Thanks for this article..I will talk with her parents about the amount they are expecting. But would like to hear what kind of amount you would expect. So here is a little background about my gf..She is 24 years old. Never married before, and no kids. Have a bachelor in "Environmental Science" Right now she works at a hotel. Earning between 15.000-20.000 baht per month.She comes from a respected family. Her father is the leader/village head of the famous "floating Island" or "Panyee Island" in South Thailand.. Not so far from Phuket. Before him, her grandfather was the leader.On her fathers side, the family is rich. He owns a lot of land, and runs a rubber plantation. But her mother comes from a poor background.I would also add that they are Muslim.I hope that was enough information.. I really appreciate you help.. Thank you very much..Best regards Andy ..
    Reply

    • TheThailandLife says

      Hi Andy, I have no experience of the Thai-Muslim traditions; I would have thought the wedding ceremony differed in many ways because of the religious affiliation. But based on what you say, I would think her family will expect sin sod of anywhere between 300k-1M THB. It's hard for me to speculate, but even average earning Thais from relatively poor backgrounds seldom have sin sod under the 150-200k mark these days. Because your GF is educated to university level and is not from a poor family, it will most certainly be over 300k. Do remember that many families like to show more than what is gifted (it's a face thing). Since her father is well off, he may just agree an amount to show (probably around the 1M TB mark) that is returned to you in full.
      Reply

  130. peter says

    himy thai gf and I have been together for 3.5 years and its time to marry. She is from a small village near Nong KaiShe was married to a foreign guy for 5 years and lived with him in the UK, thy have a son who lives with the father in the UK. We have been over to see him a few times I paid every time.She has a good job as a manager earning about 30,000 per month, i got her the jobHow much should I suggest paying to her family? i know the first guy bought them a farm, her a home and gave her a bit of money when they finished but i do not know what the sin sod wasany ideas what i should be offering?thanks
    Reply

    • TheThailandLife says

      If you are going by the rule (tradition) book on this I'd say no where near what you would expect to pay if she hadn't been married before and didn't have kids. Then again, it depends on a number of other social factors such as family name and level on the social scale, and her level of education. A lot of second marriages don't have a big sin sod, more just something to show as part of the ceremony. In my opinion, since she has been there and done it before, I'd discuss it between the two of you and, if you plan on having a traditional wedding, just agree to show something that is given back afterwards. It sounds like she is quids in after her last marriage, so her/her family aren't in need of demanding a huge sum. What I would say is read up on this tradition to arm yourself with the facts. Foreigners have been known to be taken for a ride on this matter.
      Reply

      • peter says

        hithanks for replyto answer your question her family were poor until she married the first guy, they still live in a very small farming village 40 mins drive from Nong kaishe educated Khon Kaen universityi have already given her parents over 150,000 thb to buy rubber trees for the farmi have bought cars, motorbikes and fully furnished the houseim happy to follow culture and offer something i was thinking 50-100,000 baht but her mother is greedy and will ask for a lot morecan you give me an estimate figure so i have some ideathanks for the help
        Reply

        • Uri says

          Do not give anything. You've given a lot already. Thai wedding ceremony is not legal marriage. Make her choose between you and her family.My Thai woman, also university grad and she had worked as a manager for 20 years, have chosen. However, her mother is not asking for anything. Because family is not poor, we will show 400,000BHT sin sod and gold. All is coming back to us.
          Reply

  131. Davide says

    I also read "Where poorer families are concerned, Sin Sod is a repayment for the money invested in their daughter. Many families sell land, borrow money and generally go without to put their kids through university, or in some cases to simply put food on the table. The Sin Sod is essentially a repayment for that investment. The amount paid for Sin Sod could be considered relative to the sacrificial cost of bringing up the child – thus the reason it is often referred to as payment for the “mother’s milk”."So anyone can explain me why just families of daughter need to get back some money of their investment? If you have son you will get back nothing and you also will asked to help him to pay family of future wife. But also if you have son you pay a lot for take care him until he marry. So I'm confused about this meaning of tradition.
    Reply

    • TheThailandLife says

      Yes, this is true. The idea is that parents invest time and money and sacrifice their own lives to make their daughter the best she can be,to be an appealing marriage prospect to a man from a decent family – thus the amount paid reflects the achievements and status of the daughter. And so the sin sod is a repayment for this investment, and the money will help provide for the parents as they age and after the daughter has left the family home. There is also the fact that the onus, particularly in rural families, is on the daughter to support her ageing parents, not the son(s), who as most will attest get away with what they want and are generally spoilt. When a woman gets married, she may no longer be working due to becoming a mother, and therefore will not be able to contribute to the support of the family home and her ageing parents. So the sin sod also helps with this. Also consider that if the couple split up, the man will usually be able to go on working throughout his life, whereas the woman will more than likely left with children to support, which makes it difficult to work. There is no child support agency here that makes men pay for their children, no one to make them accountable for their offspring and send them to prison or fine them for not supporting. Men regularly have children with a woman, only to leave them for another woman and do the same again. The women are left with no one to provide for their children; thus the fact that approx 95%+ of women working as prostitutes have children to care for who are left with their parents, whom they also have to support. In fact, one might go as far as to say that the sex industry acts as a welfare state, particularly in that many foreigners end up supporting these women financially. So if the man walks out and leaves the woman on her own with kids, if the family has saved the sin sod / invested it wisely, they will have this to fall back on while they find their feet.
      Reply

          • Davide says

            I'm just trying to have a serious answer and no contradictions. It 's not true that the sin sod is for repaying the bride for economic efforts made to educate her family, in fact, when the family is rich and would not need any dowry usually ask more money. And I stil, wait to know why if you have only son and not daughter nobody care about your economic problems. Don't talk to me about sex business, I don't need to confuse that with thai tradition.
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            • Davide says

              If I believe about your meaning, if example you have 3 sons and no daughters it's big disaster. You will pay to give them education and you will get back nothing from them (you said only lady normally send money to family). And after that you will also asked to pay for they can marry some lady. Very big disaster !!! How is possible? Is this real meaning of tradition?
              Reply

  132. Davide says

    Sin sod is thai tradition, then if thai lady marry with thai man can have a reason to follow this tradition but if thai lady marry western man traditions are not same, so it's very stupid if somebody think some tradition is important more than another one. Personally I'm not interest to marry anyone for money, and I know many thai lady understand and agree that, and many parents will not ask anymore money from husband, they only worry daughter can marry really good guy.
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    • Mirko says

      I do agree with you.In Thailand, a foreigner is discriminated in several ways. It is quite difficult to have a real social life with thai people. Contrary to many other countries. So, let's still be farangs, and not pay this SinSod.
      Reply

  133. Gary says

    Been here for a few years. The best thing I did was not hook up fast. Just look around and have fun. Second sin sod is a joke period. I have been in a few relationships where the family ruled my gf. MONEY is the only thing they are after. I cut them loose pretty fast. You need to remember there are thousands of women here looking. Do not settle and do not pay the sin sod. Find a good looking gal that is willing to look after you and give her an allowance. If she makes noise cut her loose. I have one now I pay nothing to except an allowance. She is 50 years old has a great body and good in bed. A keeper. Screw the gold diggers and leave the bar girls alone.
    Reply

    • Peter says

      I couldn't say it better Gary, i quote everything, only if you are blind you can accept such a medieval aspect of thai culture, we "farang" are civilized people, but of course if you are subservient to your thai wife/girlfriend you can join them and let them suck your blood 'till they drain you...It's a shame that civilized people support those ancient rites that are so far from our culture, what's worth for?
      Reply

      • Uri says

        Peter, what civilized country are you from? So..there are no married to money “civilized” people in your country? no thousands (tens and hundreds of) of dollars thrown for show off items like diamond rings and wedding receptions? no prenuptial agreements? no men's lives ruined in divorces (or by mistresses) and men punished for harassment that they never did?'Civilized' countries have their way to show off in marriages, other prefer traditional ways. I agree with you 100% that you should not let not only 'them' but anyone else, 'suck your blood 'till they drain you'. Just do not marry if you feel this way. Gary bought good mistress, well...in my opinion, nothing wrong with his playboy's life. He can't afford to buy mistress in 'civilized' country? It's OK by me, no judging.As I mentioned in my other post, this blog, I think, is for people who want long-time partner, family, kids.... They want to know how to deal with marriage in Thailand, not to know how to have financially safe sex (they know this already:). This is Thailand, they traditionally do Sin Sod. All my gal's married relatives did and, in all known to me cases money have been returned to newlyweds.Most of Thai men wear shirts and pants when go out. Not like those fat sweaty farangs on the streets of Pattaya wearing just ugly wavy trunks. Are these farangs civilized? Not in my view...
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        • Peter says

          "As I mentioned in my other post, this blog, I think, is for people who want long-time partner, family, kids…." Perfect, i am in a relationship with a Thai woman since 6 years i have never paid 1 baht to her family, she has never asked me to to pay any money, she works support herself and get my help when needed, just a simple HEALTY relationship based on trust and sharing, no money involved, maybe you guys choose the wrong way or you are too much "subservient to your thai wife/girlfriend" because i see a totally different reality here. Again these are barbaric and medieval rituals only who is not able to built a normal relationship will get married in this way. But sorry this is not my case, but again if you are happy like this, i surrender, only don't make it looks like the right thing to do...
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  134. Nishi says

    You guys make me laugh. You act so indignant about being asked for money for marriage--but you're the one who has to go to a third world country to get a woman! Bwahahahahaha! You're a joke. Give me a break. "Blah blah blah it should be about love blah blah blah." Then how come you don't marry some fat old ugly woman from your own country? You pursue hot young Thai girls but it's "only about love"? Jesus Christ, just how delusional are you guys?!
    Reply

    • Uri says

      There is simple answer to your question. We do not marry old ugly women because we do not love them. And, yes, some old men marry Thais in exchange of care, not love. Thai women make good wifes. Keep laughing, it's healthy.
      Reply

      • FarangDave says

        I was doing a co-op in Thailand for 4 months. I had no intention of getting a girlfriend at all. She was someone who worked in the same company as a Chem Engineer and we kind of clicked. 2 years later we’re getting married. Shit happens man. Not all of us are hunting for thai chicks.
        Reply

    • paul wadsley says

      I did not pursue a Thai wife. I was asked politely by a thai lady in uk to teach her friend in thailand english online. So i did we both worked hard to get her started over 4 months. We had a lot if fun and laughs on app Line. As i was going to hong kong for 5 weeks to see my friends and son i asked her if she would like me to visit she said yes. We fell in love. I offered marriage and to move to Sukhothai province so she could run her small business and maintain her family. Buy a house for her when sold my mobile home in uk worth 1,000,000 baht. She is divorced 22 year old son 15 year old daughter. But,she wants a 1,000,000 baht sin sod, it is too much for me i have not got £20,000 i am retired on 650,000 a year. I offered 100,000. Now she not happy. Have you a solution for that Nishi. I love her deeply and can will give up my country and home and look after her sick mother. And try to get her daughter back who lives with a paternal grandmother 400 kms away. So Nishi i await your response with bated breath
      Reply

      • Martin says

        Paul,as far as I have read from above she surely won't be happy if you offer only 100k THB, as this is less than a Thai man would offer.I guess 200k or 300k would be much more appropiate, and helps her keeping her face.
        Reply

  135. Long Time says

    I have been here in Thailand for a very long time. I have a successful blog with around 40,000 page views a month. Sin Sod rears its ugly head every now an again within my blog but in reality, most farangs are being done over badly by it and they are over paying for whatever they gain.I have been to many Thai weddings over the years. Most pay between 40-60,000 baht to the parents and maybe 2 baht of gold. This is for an average couple of average means. Poorer families of course do less. Recently I went to a wedding were the girl was pregnant (to whom we do not know and was a village joke) and only half baht of gold was given.The largest wedding I have seen was for 400K in Sin Sod and 5 baht of gold and this was a well to do family and the money went back to the daughter. The daughter was well educated (degree) and the husband (Thai) was also educated (degree), so it was a even match. She had a Thai boyfriend before meeting her current husband (for 3 years) and I was told, she had asked originally for 500K but due to this 'other Thai' relationship, the price was reduced as she was 'used' goods.Many years ago before I met my current partner, I met a 32 year old Hotel Manager for a 5 star group. She was well educated but not by a 'high' University and certainly was not hiso. After a year, she asked me Sin Sod of 1.2 Million baht and 15 baht of gold to marry her. I spoke to a Thai friend of mine that knew us well and was told, if she married a Thai, she would only get 300,000 and 4 baht.I took her to task over this and she told me the parents would keep the money and she would keep the gold. Nothing was coming back to us. I am independently wealthy but I told her no, it was going to be 300K an 4 baht of gold; the same amount that a Thai partner would go into the marriage for.She went to bed very angry that night and her bags were packed by the next morning and I have never seen her again. Yes, it can play against you like that.To the farangs here that are reading about Sin Sod. What is written in this blog is correct but the truth being about the amount 'we' pay, compared to a Thai, is way overboard. Yes, if you are a 'very wealthy' Thai, you can dis-regard most of this as they play in a league of their own an it is well above us both socially and culturally. Sin Sod in these cases can go in the Millions.There are plenty of 'average' rich Thai guys out there but I can tell you, they will not take spoiled goods (married or women with children) and following Sin Sod now in a traditional sense, the money always comes back to you. They have heaps of choice and most Thai girls would prefer to marry a Thai, not a farang and that is the truth.If she has been married, has children and you are prepared to take them on (an the family should be grateful for this fact), you need pay nothing and if in token she wants something, 1/2 baht in gold for a nice wedding ring is enough, as well as a Village wedding.Frankly, I am tired of seeing Thai bar girls ride over farangs with 'Sin Sod' (or some Isaan poor farm girl that wants to take you for a ride) as in reality, if you find the right women, she will ask you for very little and it will come back to you if she has a good family.If they are poor as 'mice' rice farmers or of that ilk and ask for huge Sin Sod and say they will keep the money, go look for a better quality of girl as from experience, there is NO shortage of women here in Thailand and we are in control, not them.Just don't let your second head do your thinking and yes, not all Thai girls are money hungry monsters that Thai Visa makes them out to be and just let common sense guide you through.Like your blog by the way. Easy to look at and has a few interesting subjects.
    Reply

    • Uri says

      Jees, Long Time, your 'girl' left you after price negotiations failed, and you dare to give advice on relationship? You and Oracle are on a wrong thread. We do not discuss life with hookers here. There are plenty of other women in Thailand. For example, my woman bought me a 1 baht ring and, she paid for a hospital visit when I got food poisoning. I bough her nothing yet, just hotel rooms for us and food/drinks. I will show 400,000 sin sod (money + gold) and we will get it back. Sorry guys, your life is tough, I thing Thailand is only place where woman agrees to be with you, even here just for money.
      Reply

  136. oracle says

    F*** women period....some idiots can sit there like a pawn on a chess board ..take it in the a** ..and proclaim undying love...others can jump from one bed to another but they cant hold anything down....and then theres the ugly, fat gits who are loaded and can do as they please....the thing is in my experience...its all about money...phillipinos are ten times better than thais who wants no bulls*** about appearance, saving face, public affection or weird cultural habits all the time...if your middle aged and serious go to makati...ive been to thailand 15 times...isaan chix are the best ....wana be white thais make me sick in the gutts...remember in the end...your better off by yourself...have a few girlfriends enjoy and thats it!!!
    Reply

  137. jack says

    hi...a simple question: me...39yo, european,very good Financial situation, university educated, 2 kids (same mum), never married. her: 27yo,very beautifull, never married, has been workng for the same emlpoyer for the past 10 years, not a Virgin, little education (but smart) but very hard working, from poor countryside familly. we should get married in thailand in march. i am aware of her tradition (i have issues accepting sin)...i let her deal with it and "mum" wants US 8000.- any coment please...sorry…have to add we met 4 years ago…we talk a lot about all subjects and she told me the other day she finds it difficult to be in the middle of the issues between “mum” and me…she understand my culture too and told me she needs to make it right for her familly so she can leave in peace for a new life in europe…” i sort it out with my familly and than that will be it”…she has been sending “mum” money each months for the past 10 years…
    Reply

    • TheThailandLife says

      Hi Jack, the type of Thai man her social status would permit her to marry probably wouldn't be paying more than 200k Sin Sod; that is taking into account she has no kids and hasn't been married before. That said, although uneducated she has established a good career for herself in the big city, so if she met a guy through work that might stretch to 250-300; so what her mum has asked for is about right.Be aware though that I doubt the payments to mum will stop after you are married. This is supposed to be the case, but if she has no younger sister to fulfil this duty then they will still rely on her. Consider that if they are a poor family they will have little if any investments, no pension and no source of income as they become too old to work.
      Reply

      • Eddie says

        Had a conversation with my thai lady tonight's she is 27 with 2 daughters from a previous relationship (not marriage) we have been seeing each other for over 2 years she has stated her mother wants 100k plus 100k for gold her father passed away nearly 2 years ago she was a bar girl but isn't now (fact) not me being delusional do you think I should go down to 50k and up it if it isn't taken well ? She's as bright as a button but from a very poor family and although sharp not well educated
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        • Justathought says

          I would say Eddie that if she is a former bar girl and has two daughter no one is going to be fooled into thinking she is some virtuous virgin bride worth 50k let alone 200k baht. She also is uneducated, smart as a whip or not...she is uneducated beyond maybe a mathayom 4 level or 6 at the most. M4 is required by law.Take into account too that she has had to support her two daughters by herself this whole time too aside from the occasional farang long timer/boyfriend(not saying this stuff to be mean just its what happens to most thai bar girls ask around if you don't believe me.) .Also taking into account her mom doesn't have anyone else to support as her husband is dead...so one little old thai lady might need about 500 to 1k baht per month to live off of...trust me they are spin thrifts and can live off much less than 500baht unless they are not that smart with money.All of that being said I would calculate a fair sin sod for a farang taking her daughter and grand children off her hands at about 30k baht with maybe another 5k to 10k worth of gold at most. A thai man unless he is blindly in love with her and simply can't find anyone else would pay maybe 5k sin sod and if the mom is lucky 1k baht of gold.A farang is always going to pay double to triple that of a thai its just the way they love to bend us over and freak us good.The mother sounds like a greedy old mama san, or milk peddler...don't go buying her used cow for more than she is worth. Not trying to degrade your lady...but she was a former prostitute so she is super used goods so she holds little not no real value sin sod wise to anyone. She is damn lucky to have you so I doubt she will protest too much and if her mom is going to try come between her and her new found wealth and better life for her daughters...lol yeah right...you could get away with no sin sod and just give the old biznitch a couple cheap imitation gold necklaces and call it good.
          Reply

    • jleerot@hotmail.com says

      hi, and thank you very much for your answer. It will be helpfull to our futur as earing from a white man who knows his stuff that i dont get f***ed over makes to pill easyer to swollow. I discussed your answer with my wife to be and she laughed at me for pointing out she wasnt a Virgin anymore:)...and she thanked me (with a synical smile) for trusting "some web site" more than her. In the end its a win win situation as i feel more secured now and she will not ear me complaining about the price anymore. I have also told her that, from my side moneywise that will be it and she accepted it...its christal clear to her. But i told her that when she has a job, her money isnt mine. I expect her to participate in paying some of the expenditures (some=very little) and with what is left i dont have to know. She knows that if one month she sends money to her mum she should not be asking me for clothes shopping. We have sorted that out, thanks to you. Could you give me your point of view about gold please. she did her best to explain but might help to have your point of view. Apparently it has to be shiny and heavy (so thai :). She told me as well that in countryside thailand diamonds dont count as the locals dont know how much they cost and think they are fakes. If i dont want her to loose face in front of her village, what would you advise me? how much gold?
      Reply

      • TheThailandLife says

        Generally gold is part of the ceremony, but if you have an engagement this might be given as part of this ceremony. People do things differently these days. Sometimes gifts other than gold are given to the family during the engagement, and then gold given to the bride as well as sin sod at the wedding. Sin sod is always part of the wedding though. Generally, a groom will give gold to the bride at the wedding along with the sin sod. I guess around 2 Baht gold would be fine. The formalities really depend on how traditional the family is. They may want to do everything by the old way. Some people have the engagement on the morning of the wedding, others sometime before.
        Reply

  138. Gabe Asher says

    Explain what happens when a Thai girl marries an Indian man, and Indian culture states they must pay a dowry to the mans family and give the newlywed couple land.If you still think they should pay a sin sod and NOT a dowry, you need to lay off the Chang. One culture/tradition is no more impt than the other. If they convince you that theirs is to be respected and not yours, you need to take a long look at the family you're marrying into.Most sin sods at weddings are for show. Many times its the womans family who shows their own money, not the mans.I wouldn't get married, so it's a non-issue for me. If you want to pay a sin sod, do it.
    Reply

  139. Gabe Asher says

    Guys who pay sin sod are the guys who hang out with bar girls, or at Soi 11, or Pattaya, or Nana etc. Normal Thai girls from good families would NEVER ask a foreigner for it. They are educated enough to know its not acceptable, as he is not a Thai. If you fall for it, good for you, or shame on you. . I've lived all over the world, and there are 'victim' and 'non-victim' expats everywhere. Not just here. It's a mindset. We call them 'shirts'. Don't be a 'shirt'.
    Reply

    • TheThailandLife says

      Did you read anything in the article? Have you ever spoken to Thai people about Sin Sod? Have you ever read a book about Thai culture? No, you just made that up.Just for good measure, I asked the two Thai women sitting opposite me, both educated at top Bangkok universities, what they thought of your comment. After laughing somewhat, they both explained that their parents wouldn't have let them marry anyone without a Sin Sod because this is a hugely significant part of the Thai wedding ceremony and very important in Thai society, which, in case you didn't know, is one based on socio-hierarchical factors - many of which are reflected by Sin Sod.If you knew anything about the tradition of Sin Sod you'd know your comment sounds ridiculous, because if anything it would be the other way around. A girl working a bar in Soi Nana is less likely to have a Sin Sod because she will most likely have been married before, since most bar girls are divorcees/separated single mothers.The Sin Sod represents the woman's status and that of her family, and therefore an educated, unmarried woman marrying for the first time would have a larger Sin Sod than an uneducated bar girl with kids who'd been married before.This notion that Sin Sod is a scam dreamt up by Thai people to con foreigners out of money is an ignorant bar stool rant dreamt up by a foreigner.If a Thai woman doesn't want Sin Sod as part of her wedding then she can talk with her family about that. If a foreigner doesn't want Sin Sod then don't get married in Thailand to a Thai woman. But I can assure you, of the 10 or so Thai weddings I've attended, all had Sin Sod; except one. In this instance my friend, a Thai woman, decided she didn't want a traditional Thai wedding. She married a foreigner and didn't have Sin Sod. Her parents accepted this.Furthermore, all my friends who married Thai women had Sin Sod. These women are all university graduates, without kids and never married before.Please don't post up random, ill-informed comments. Provide facts and references to back up such sweeping statements.
      Reply

      • Dragan says

        I agree. every thai girl u found and you are with her every day, she will get idea in her head: now take me and pay me of.and she is clear in her head that she have man who will take care of her. my point was until u pay her of, u need to cash her all the time. and works fine. she is happy and she tells everybody around that she is happy. only what they do all day long is to be with man. and she have plenty of time to check you and she knows what kind of man u are.bar girls are just to take your money. but if she likes u, again u need to pay of her in the bar and than at the home.what i like here, everybody knows what is going on and u easily get what u want. we should thank you generation before us. they have build us road to thailand. now every girl in thailand want the same / the farang man :)
        Reply

      • Uri says

        Good point, TheThailandLife,'Sin Sod is a hugely significant part of Thai wedding ceremony and very important in Thai society, which, in case you didn’t know, is one based on socio-hierarchical factors – many of which are reflected by Sin Sod.'I completely agree with this. I just think that Sin Sod ceremony (sitting around plate with money and gold on it) is Thai tradition but, throwing money for the wedding is universal. Marriage has always been, in my opinion, a financial contract. This tradition exists in any, I repeat, any country in the world. In most countries groom's family expected to pay, in some other places like India, bride's family pay.In modern days it is all about vanity. People can't stop to show off. This is why social media such a hit :). Wealthy ones want to protect their socio-hierarchical status and show off, “less fortune” ones are trying to follow and show off. All this has nothing to do with love and family values. I had been married to wonderful woman for 35 years. We had very small wedding but, I wish all of you, readers, to have such mutual love, care, support and respect in your marriage that we had. She died of breast cancer complications in 2011.I thought, after her death, I would never be able to meet woman that I want to live with and, I really did not want too. However, I met this Thai woman one and half year ago. It was enough time to know each other and to come to discussion of finance part of our relations. I trust she made her choice between me and her family. I told her that I can afford 400,000 Sin Sod and, she told me that her mother will give back all of it to us anyway. She wants to add 200,000 of her own money. Couple years ago her oldest brother threw big wedding for his daughter and gave all Sin Sod to young couple. As you mention 'The Sin Sod represents the woman’s status and that of her family'. I respect my future wife and, I do not want her “to lose face”. I would pay Sin Sod even her mother would not return it to us but, I would not keep warm relations with my mother-in-law :)Are there men who were victimized by their wives in Thailand? Yes, many. Also, there are many horrible divorce stories in your country, whatever it is. Thailand is not exception. So, do not rush, make sure your girlfriend chooses you over her family. Sin Sod has nothing to do with love.
        Reply

      • kee-naio farang (scottish) says

        I have been in a relationship with my wife to be for a long time. Her family have adopted me as part of the family and love me to the point where they take my point over others.I have lived in thailand for a long time and understand most of the culture and the face part, sin sod is as said to look after the family and to show face.Since i love my girls family back, and they are a great people who have never asked for anything from me, and i have never given money. The only gifts i have given are in the form of me laying tiles in dads house, re-wiring the electric myself, painting the house myself and improving his living conditions slowly using my own hands and diy skills.I will give a substantial sin sod, for my family, for their face, and to ensure everyone is happy.I will not embeggar myself, my wife has not asked for one, nor have her family. But i will give it out of my own respect for the culture, love of the family and the very thai aspect of face.
        Reply

  140. Gabe Asher says

    Anyone who pays a sin sod as a foreigner is a total Moe. It's for Thais, among Thais. Period. In India, the mans family gets paid and the groom gets land from the females family.So? If she marries an Indian man, does the Thai family do this? LOL!!! They only want to 'mesh' cultures when it serves them. Wake up. Don't be a Moe.
    Reply

    • TheThailandLife says

      There is absolutely no truth in your comment. It's just another unsubstantiated assumption with no historical cultural context to back it up. Sin Sod is an integral part of Thai culture. Having read extensively on the subject, and having been to numerous Thai weddings, I can tell you that no where does it state that if a Thai woman marries a foreigner Sin Sod doesn't apply.Sin Sod is decided by the bride's parents and then discussed and agreed with the groom-to-be and his parents. If there are cultural differences and changes need to be made to the ceremony, these will be decided by the families involved.
      Reply

    • Justathought says

      Gabe Asher, I have known two friend from New Deli who married thai girls, and their families accepted the Indian tradition of paying them with land and a small gift of gold. This happened only for three reasons...1 being the families the thai girls came from were well educated bankokers. 2 they have lots of money and land so it meant little to them to give their daughter's husband the land and gold. The third reason is they both paid a fairly large Sin sod...about 2 million for one and above that for the other I was not privy to the exact amount as its kind of in bad taste to ask that of the bride who was a much closer friend than the groom. The other thing that affected this happening is everyone involved were well educated and culturally sensitive enough to respect each others cultures.If they were marrying into a poor thai family then of course they would get jack, how can anyone ask anything more than maybe a free bag of rice from a poor farmer? I actually think that the Indian tradition is a bag of bull dung, I have to pay you money to screw my daughter as if I did not know you two already bangged uglies together at least once if not more before your married. Then on top of it I have to pay you money and land to take her...wow yeah great tradition..cheers India you really love to screw over the bride and her family. If you want to talk about uncivilized I think that tradition takes the cake and the bakery it was made in too. Good luck with your ideas and opinions and cheers for not being a part of the reproductive part of society...we can use a few less douchebags like you and indian culture.I especially enjoy the part of Indian culture where you get to rape girls, say its their fault, then shame them til they kill themselves or a group of drunken idiots decide to gang rape her again then torture and hang her naked in view of the village. Yup great traditions there in India. Let's all follow yours instead of a non-harmful sin sod thai tradition...cause following that would just be crazy right? Way to go arsehat, keep them great indian traditions alive!
      Reply

      • Mr. says

        You obvously did not understand Gabes comment.. which was easy enough to understand. Hint: she is not from India, and does not try to say Indian traditions are better than Thai traditions. When you call other people arsehat.. it's always a good idea to check if you are wearing one yourself.
        Reply

  141. Dragan says

    It is very simple.Pay her 100 - 200 Eur when you are back home. And 20.000 - 40 .000 bath when you are in Thailand. They ask for marriage, but if you pay every month is fine.u pay extra accommodation, presents and food. this could be 20.000 to 40.000bath more.if u pay more she is happier and relationship is happier. it is good to find one who likes u in beginning. and do not play games with the money. 'give me what you like'reading is fine, but please do calculation. can you pay all of it? if you can cash her family and u really want to bring her home.. find her a job.. than u are fine. there is many of them, who will ask nothing in return. in beginning u pay something to get into.. every trip there cost 200.000 bath anyway.i think more than half of the man who can go there can not pay all of it. than frustration comes. same frustration u have with your business. you want to things move on, but not going. for those who have constant good income and having holidays/mistresses is the best. for all others i recommend to find cheaper places. Thailand is not cheap and is not poor country. they have sun, fruits and tourists 365 days. that is paradise
    Reply

  142. pompey john says

    Hi... Loving this blog...I recently had a discussion with my intended regarding Sin sot...before I go to talk to her mum... It did not go well....Based on posts on this blog I was happy to go and negotiate at around 300k....but, my girlfriend has told me that what ever is agreed with her mother needs to be matched to her....for rings etc...I'm a bit put out about this...I have no problem honoring her family and no issue with shopping with her for rings.....wedding and engagement. But as we plan to start a business I can ill afford to pay an extra 300k.. Is this correct custom? Cheers John
    Reply

    • TheThailandLife says

      There is no such custom to my knowledge, and I have read about and experience this subject extensively.In fact, rings are very much a new thing, adopted from the western culture of getting engaged with a ring and having wedding rings.Thai culture has its own form of engagement, separate to the wedding day, called Khan Maak. Sin Sod is agreed prior to the engagement, and it doesn't go ahead until it has been approved.Many couples choose to have the engagement on the same day now to save money, or combine the engagement traditions into the wedding.Traditionally the engagement involves an offering of gold and gifts for the bride and her family. I attended a Thai-Thai engagement recently and money was given to the bride's mother.There is no "matching" of any sorts, that your GF mentions, I assume that is her personal expectation. Do be aware though that in addition to the Sin Sod, you will be expected to buy gold for your wife to be presented on your weeding day (if that is her preference) and gifts for her family (optional these days and can be small).
      Reply

  143. Sachin says

    Absolutely freaking incredible the concept of SinSod...Wish we in India had Sin Sod instead of Dowry paid by the bride to the groom which has been a curse on Indian women.Millions of Indian women would have been saved, if we had SinSod concept in India.Thousand of infanticide in India due to, desire for a son, as he is of less burden. In India, many women commit suicide due to constant harassment from the grooms parents for dowry.Concept such as SinSod is what keeps Thailand Alive and women not discriminated against. If there was no concept of SinSod, Thai women would suffer like women in India.
    Reply

  144. nana says

    It is very interesting. I can see that you researched a lot for this article. I am Korean who got married to Thai man. I totally agree with you. My sin-sod was big and I returned his family. like what you wrote... :) Thank you for sharing good article.
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  147. oracle says

    Sinsod is for thai's...and dumbass farangs...marry wtf? for....theres 75 million of them...they all want to tie you down ....good luck dumbasses....your the boss...you make the cash...its your choice... not theres...KAPISH?
    Reply

    • TheThailandLife says

      The female population of Thailand is 34.9 million (51.03%) of the total population of 67.01 million, not 75 million. The large majority of the female population do not want to marry a foreigner. Indeed, my wife didn't want to be my girlfriend let alone marry me when we first met. Perhaps the females you meet in bars and in and around the tourist industry from very poor backgrounds with families to feed and support may be desperate to bag any foreigner they can for economic reasons, but that certainly does not represent the average Thai female. Kapish?
      Reply

  148. John Sweden says

    Sounds like a way to make money for the family. What´s their social status? Her education level? Where do they live? Where will your brother and his wife live in the future? Maybe she can't get pregnant and someone in the family knows that, or a fortune teller told someone that she can´t get pregnant(I am not kidding). I have never ever heard about a sin sod that will be kept until the first baby is born. I think the family is trying to upgrade their financial status.
    Reply

  149. Jess says

    I apologize if this has been asked and answered before. My question is about a U.S. citizen (my brother) paying a 1m baht ($30k USD) to his fiancee's family (we have been told it will be returned at the birth of their first child). Regardless of Thai cultural practices and any other ways to explain the custom, the U.S. government could still consider this direct payment for the right to marry (i.e., human trafficking). So, is this even legal for a U.S. citizen to do? Can someone point me in the direction of verifiable resources to confirm that this observation of a cultural practice/custom does not violate federal and international laws?
    Reply

    • TheThailandLife says

      Hi Jess, I've never heard of money being withheld in this manner; it is certainly not part of the tradition and sounds like a ransom of sorts. I don't know the US law, so I couldn't answer that question, but I can't see any logical reason why this demand would be made other than an excuse to secure some money. Maybe the family is scared your brother will run off before they have kids, quite what difference that will make I don't know. Perhaps the difference being that if they have a child, should your brother leave her, he is more likely to continue to support the wife of his child financially. So perhaps this is security towards that eventuality. All sounds rather prehistoric and cold though. If the family is poor and I would suggest your brother works out an amount he can happily afford to offer as a "gift" and leave the sin sod at that. If the family is well off, they will simply show the money on the day in the traditional manner and return it without fuss. This is generally the norm these days.
      Reply

  151. minhhuong says

    There is a phrase in Vietnamese (also in Chinese and I doubt in Thai too) says that "you must keep well (high) your self-respect (pride, ego), event though you are very poor".The fact is, in those countries, the more you are poor, the more you desire to keep your face. Because they think that they have absolutely nothing except the face.Due to that logic, you will find out that there are more chance the rich or average families over there would be more flexible way about the sin sod "show", cause they always have other thing to "show" to the village already: wealth, education ...I was successful to go out of such good-for-nothing tradition, I will tell you how I did.I'm a Vietnamese girl, married to a french guy 13 years ago.I don't want to celebrate my own wedding by vietnamese's way, which would have at least 800 guests that I don't know 9/10 of them. A vietnamese's wedding party in my city, in fact is an event to collect money envelopes, guests enter the hall, give the envelopes, join a table which often they don't know each other, eat quickly, then left after 30'-40'. Puffff!!!"he went to put an envelope for my son's wedding, so now it's my turn to pay him back for his daughter's one" "my boss' son is married today, I don't have an invitation card but I still come to get such a good chance to bribe him as money under the table" ...v...v...Sick!To be sure that my family couldn't put pressure on us to do their way, I told everybody that I don't do a wedding party yet.Then the "D-Day" morning, I called those I want to invite to come to a restaurant that evening. - "What??? You told us your plan is next spring!!!" - "Uncle, surprise!!!!" => end of discussion.The KEY of the game: Do thing before the olders know about it, if you give them time then you have to follow their way. Why? Because asian culture is that the older people decide for the younger. It is not acceptable for the children go against their parents. The most polite way to avoid is: "do not let them time to decide. Not a second"!! HeheheDo the party look like mixing between western-asia way, so you really have an excuse to why I don't do this but I do that, cut the part you don't like such as sin sod. Should also put personal touch to make the party in such a very unique one. How can your family lose face, cause this is not a pure traditional wedding anyway. Everybody will be concentrate to how unique it is and forget about the tradition symbol.
    Reply

  152. John says

    Sinsod is a thai tradition. From the very beginning just that: A tradition for thais among thais. As foreigners we sometimes se it as a way to pull money from us. In many cases the tradition is used to do exactly that. Making the daughter of the family a tool to make easy, sometimes BIG money. Like it or not: This is Thailand today.Ps: The "scam sinsod" is often protected by foreigners who have paid a big amount of money for their old, uneducated "second hand" wife in therms like: She is worth it! Maybe she is to him, but that does´t make it less a scam.
    Reply

    • TheThailandLife says

      You're right. Sinsod is a Thai tradition, and one that is exploited by some families to get more money than should be correctly apportioned to a marriage that involves a foreigner. Which is why, like I always say, any man marrying a Thai woman, or indeed living in Thailand, should dedicate time to properly learning the culture and traditions behind it. Learn about societal structures, ceremonial traditions, religious influences, etc.
      Reply

      • Peter says

        The tradition in my country is that the wife's family should pay all the expenses regarding the marriage, so? How are we gonna do this? And let's say the marriage is between thais, the poor people is among also thai husbands, so what are we gonna do with them? They must be rich to look after the poor wife family? Your post is very confusing, even the thais should respect our tradition or not?
        Reply

        • TheThailandLife says

          Before getting into a serious relationship with a Thai person you should be aware of what the culture is surrounding marriage. Of course, this works both ways, which is why many Thai-foreign weddings are a mixture of both cultures; it's up to the individuals and families involved to agree on what they want/expect. I'm not sure what you mean about Thai husbands. It's true there are many marriages between poor men and women where the men get themselves in debt to provide a sin sod, but then many save up for this event for a long time, or money is provided by their family.
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          • Peter says

            That's why i consider it VERY UNFAIR, and i will not get married with a thai woman unless she will show some respect for my traditions as well... if i want to buy a woman there plenty of places in Thailand(and not only)...Love shouldn't be based on money or on what i can pay to the family of my girlfriend... this is very wrong and i am surprised that there are western people who support this thing, maybe it's because they try to justify themselves or their mistakes....There is nothing to understand on this, money is something, love is a totally different thing.
            Reply

  153. nicolas says

    Thanks for your article. I am okay to pay her sin sod of 200 000 baths as a sign of respect for her family and culture. However I wonder, It doesn't seem right that she still want to send money to her mother after the wedding right ?? Isn't it what sin sod is about ?
    Reply

    • TheThailandLife says

      Hi Nicolas, many women from poor families will continue to send a portion of their salary home after marriage. If the woman isn't working then this responsibility will fall upon her partner. In some cases, the sending of money each month stops after marriage, but the daughter will still be obliged to help out financially when needed.
      Reply

  154. Catty says

    Hi there ^^I'm a Thai girl who have foreigner boyfriend...I've read all about Sin Sod's pages....I'd like to explain about Sin Sod to my bf also ^^ That's why I have to read and get to know more how to clearly explain about Thai marriage tradition to him. This article very useful and interesting. Especially I get to know more " How's foreigner think about Sin Sod" There are various of attitude or point of view ...I'm respect all the point of view :)I'm 26 years old and my bf 25 years old ( He's younger than me :-P ) We 're in relationship for 2 years. visit each other 1-2 times a year(I live in Bangkok) but now....we have a big plan...I'm moving to live with him in Finland ( I've been there one time visit him and his family. everything was great. They're love me and i love them also. I'm happy that we will be together soon ( end of 2015). Anyway....... In my opinion Sin Sod means about respectful their parents or family. Surly this is a Thai marriage traditional. and i respect my parents also but....I'm sure that my parents will never ask Sinsod from my bf because we both still so young :) ( but i need to let my bf know what sinsod is ) we need more time for saving money for our life. I think we can earn money and look after them later when we ready then we can have a small wedding only relatives and close friends ^^ I write this comment because truly is 90 % the family's thai girl expect a sinsod ,exactly because of tradition.For me "Money can buy a convenience but money can't buy a happiness" I just focus on a happiness. of course money also important in our life but happiness is the most important in life.Therefore... money is not base on a condition of my love well...I hopefully everyone on this pages get through any troubles and understand well about Sinsod in thai traditional.....wish you guys found a true love.. cheer up :)good luck guys ^^
    Reply

    • TheThailandLife says

      Hi Catty, thanks for sharing your story; it's good to get some insight from a Thai woman on this subject. I think you make a good point about being young and your parents not expecting Sin Sod, or at least not a big amount. Young men just starting out in married life usually don't have a lot of money saved; certainly not to just give away, anyway. I think this is why SOME poorer Thai girls seek out older men to marry because they know older men have savings from their career, a regular pension income and have probably inherited money from their parents too, and can therefore pay a bigger sin sod and take care of the girl's family.Thanks for clarifying that 90% of Thai families would expect sin sod for their daughters due to tradition. This is something many foreigners don't understand. Some think it is a scam designed to get money from foreign men. I wish you all the best with your marriage.
      Reply

    • Steven Foley says

      Well if any Thai woman marries a western man then she should respect his cultural values . In the west we do no buy love , it's a criminal offence to do so ( human trafficking laws ) my advice to any Thai lady is to either repeat western culture or marry a Thai and let that fool feed your family . Marriage is and should be based on love and feelings . Not finacial Gai.
      Reply

      • Robert sutton says

        This is the biggest load of poo I have ever heard. Maybe if you pick up some hooker from soi 18 and your 50 years old. I'm 23 and married to my 23 year old Thai wife I met her travelling and she studied at university is ambitious and shames upon a lot of Thai problems like prostitution etc. not all Thai girls are like this just the stereotypes. If my wife wanted any money off me I would not of married her. It's your own fault if you marry someone that wants your money ! Prejudice bellends.
        Reply

  155. ThaiTraveller says

    Hi Very interesting topic. I'm reading up on sin sod these days because i want to know what is a decent amount to pay for and somewhat educated girl of what i know now from my new and recent girlfriend. She is not married, think she is still a virgin. I like her a lot but need time to know more about her but she wants to me to ask her to marry this summer already. We met in December, she's 32 already, wants 2 children. I do have a children wish myself.I was thinking of 1-2 months of salary, being said i make 48000 each month. Since I know she wants some gold for her. I think I'll be the one that will pay for the wedding since my gf is not wealthy. I'm not so wealthy in belgium either. Life is expensive here. I can save quite a bit since I still live at home but on a waiting list for a social house.I can go one time a year to thailand since I can save ok to good every month and still have my life in belgium. Also I have to calculate that if I want her to come to belgium for a short visit I'll need to be able to provide that too.
    Reply

    • Ben says

      Do you mean 48,000 baht per month, or 48,000 euros (or should I say 48.000)?If you mean 48,000 euros, 2 months' salary seem like way more than ample for a "somewhat educated" woman (not sure what you mean by this). If you mean 48,000 baht, then 2 months' salary seems a little slim, especially for a woman with a bachelor's degree. That said, it all depends on what her family expects.
      Reply

  156. Gerald Trass says

    Awesome thread TTL. Have just become involved with a Thai lady and reading the entire thread has been very helpful indeed. Hearing the various points of view has enabled me to understand more where she is coming from when we talk. Knowledge leads to power and can smooth the path ahead when one knows the culture and reasoning behind actions. The path of love is certainly one of combining the heart and head. Look forward to further updates.
    Reply

  158. anonymous123 says

    My future wife is 22 yrs younger than me. After we stayed in Bkk with her mother over the weekend we fell in love and all that, and we agreed to 200.000 Bht for Sin Sod, so I was actually very happy with that. However. Then came the demand for 5 baht gold, worth 4000 dollars. Also, to pay for the wedding, add another 5000 dollars. Also, to pay for rings.(not that that is a Thai tradition at all).So now Im left with thinking if I was a millionaire I'd just shell out the cash and have me a nice Thai girl, she might even stay with me for more than 6 months.But there is just no way I can(or want to) satisfy all these stupid ring, gold and Sin Sod demands.
    Reply

  159. D. P. says

    I'm really confused how much to offer... so any advice can be usefulShe is 50 years old work at her family business which given by her parents to her brother, got university degree and making around $2000 a month which is big for a thai standard , divorced years ago, got 2 grown up kids one is married other engaged and her mother is still alive so how I read here and on other sites Some amount of Sin Sod should be offered to keep up with the traditions ...
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  160. anonymous123 says

    Well how about that, can someone clarify whether assets in the groom's home country are under threat in a divorce when the marriage was in Thailand?And can you recommend someone to talk to wrt to prenup here in Thailand/Bangkok?Once again, thank you for the thread, it is very informative.
    Reply

    • Ben says

      I'd like to piggyback a question on these: if we are already married in the US, are there any special legal ramifications to getting married again in Thailand? Is it even legal to get married twice (to the same person, of course)?
      Reply

      • TheThailandLife says

        You wouldn't to get married again, but rather have the marriage registered.When in Thailand you would need to go to the US Embassy and have your marriage certificate certified as valid. This could be done in the US too, I'm sure.Next you need to get that document translated into Thai by an official translation office. You then need to get that document certified by the Thai Foreign Ministry, Consular Department (not sure if this step is still required).After that, go to any Amphur to have the marriage registered in Thailand.You might be able to do all this in the US, via the US embassy and Thai consulate, although I'm from the UK so I'm not sure about that.
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        • Ben says

          Well we want to have a wedding ceremony in Thailand, but I'm guessing I could do that and then just register the marriage rather than do whatever paperwork would normally be required.Do you know if there are any benefits to registering the marriage in Thailand (currently we plan to live in the US)? If not, we could just do a ceremony without any paperwork.Thanks for your help.
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          • TheThailandLife says

            Yes, you can have the ceremony and register the marriage afterwards. This is standard practice anyway.If your wife has taken your name, then she will need to register the marriage to change bank account details, ID card and asset ownership documents to her married name, if she wants to that is.
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  161. Guest says

    Is it not suspect that any money that is put into Thailand by a foreign groom, he has no legal right to? Be it invested in any sort of property. But in the west she may have more rights than you to your own stuff. So technically the bride could own all the assets in her homeland and half or more of the assets in your own country, should something go wrong. On top of that your still expected to pay sin sod??? Even more so the possibility of monthly or yearly payments???? To any aware individual, red flag pop up all over the place.
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  162. anonymous123 says

    Sorry, I was being unclear. What I mean is that it would be hard to deny a request for financial assistance even if the family(land owners, 4 working brothers) might not require it. I took this scenario from a comment above.There are also the reports of asking for family assistance on a monthly basis, and there is just no way to know whether this will happen or not. (it's happened to me twice, but when things were still in the online stage, so no harm done).As to the running away, that could be the case if we were (also) married in my country of residence and not just in Thailand.I wish the Thai government would just legislate a flowchart with which woman deserves what Sin Sod for any given family constellation, and it wouldn't feel so much like haggling over a kilo of fish at the market.
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    • TheThailandLife says

      Haha, that's quite a good idea. Sadly Sin Sod is grossly distorted by celebrity culture too; with big stars marrying for in excess of 100 million etc.Many low-earning Thai men put themselves in debt to come up with 200 or 300,000 Baht sin sod, a figure which would be considered quite low in this day and age.Where monthly stipends are concerned, I've never had to deal with this and it's not a cultural thing, more something that women with dependents might try and secure when marrying a foreigner. At the end of the day, I think the same applies whether marrying into a Thai family or any other nationality of family, if someone comes to you with a desperate request for money, you consider A) the merit of the request, and B) What you can afford to give, if you decide you want to help.Of course, if your wife is at home looking after the home and your children, you will be giving her some money to support that work, and perhaps she'll choose to share some of that with her family.If you have assets to protect and have your reservations, I strongly suggest doing a prenuptial.
      Reply

  163. anonymous123 says

    I'm currently spending the weekend in Bkk with spouse-to-be and her mother, and the first thing that came up after having set down together for the first time was the damn Sin Sod. Mother first told me no hanky panky before marriage, and then asked how much I was willing to pay. I hadn'r read this blog before that and had only a vague idea of the whole concept.So I stalled and said I felt uncomfortable and would like her to tell me how much she expects.I'm very much a lover of all things Thai(and Asian), but the whole Sin Sod idea, plus the emotional blackmail that may lie ahead should one of her family members fall ill, plus the non-negligible chance that she might run away with half my assets shortly after the marriage, make me reconsider this whole thing.So here I am, one whole weekend to go, and it's awkward to say the least haha. What I'm planning to do is sit down with my girl and see how she feels about it, without mum present.See how it goes.
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    • TheThailandLife says

      What do you mean by this: "plus the emotional blackmail that may lie ahead should one of her family members fall ill, plus the non-negligible chance that she might run away with half my assets shortly after the marriage, make me reconsider this whole thing."How would she run away with half your assets? How would that be possible?Why would there be emotional blackmail if a family member falls ill?
      Reply

  164. Guest says

    Im not saying that my feelings on this are correct in any way. These are questions that come to me.The tradition in the west is that her parents pay for the wedding and the couple get a good boost to start their life together. If they are to start a family, theres a need to build a good platform to raise healthy kids of their own. If you live in north america, should you and your spouse follow the traditions of the west?Buddhist speak of non materialism but no matter how you paint it, to even display the Sinsod is materialistic to a high degree. The fact that a lot of the time the Sinsod is not owned by the groom but it is insinuated to save face is not shallow and vain?Is it a good way to open a relationship with your in-laws by them asking you for money?If she has a dad and brothers then how hard are they working and can they not support their wives and daughters?If you had a daughter, would the love of her man be what is important to you? Or to monetize it and negotiate it to see how much she is worth?And finally, A mothers breast milk… Symbolic or not. If anything is free on the earth, should it not be a baby’s milk from the mothers breast?
    Reply

    • TheThailandLife says

      I don't think Buddhism is relevant to the Sin Sod debate because although Thailand is branded a Buddhist country (Theravada), it's more a mix of Hinduism, Animism, and Buddhism. For example, many Thais are superstitious, worshipping Hindu deities such as Ganesh, and living in fear of spirits, which is considered by Buddhists to be unconscious, and therefore not part of the conscious Buddhist pathway.That's not to say some Thais don't follow Buddhist precepts, but it really is a complex, rather "Thainess" version of Buddhism that the average Thai adheres to.Moreover, culture has a tendency to override/reinterpret religion. For example, I doubt Jesus would agree with carrying a gun, yet more than a third of "Christian" American households own a gun.I think what one must realise when living in Thailand, and especially when marrying a Thai person, is that this is a classist society. While it adopts a capitalist monetary system, Thailand is very much still a feudal system, ruled by an aristocracy and elite class. People are judged on wealth, status, family descent, education, region of birth, etc. Society is generally organised based on these things. And this is therefore reflected and demonstrated through engagements, weddings and even funerals.Of course, not every Thai lives by these ideals, and many aren't interested in Sin Sod, saving/showing face, elevating status, etc. I have a Thai friend who married a foreigner and wasn't the slightest bit interested in having a sin sod. But by and large society still works this way, which is why when Thais meet each other they first establish of what social class a person is, because that will dictate the interaction and relationship going forward - in terms of how address one another and even whether or not they will establish a friendship.This is why I always encourage people to read up on Thai history and culture. Because by understanding the history you are able to better understand how Thai society works. And it also means you won't find yourself misunderstanding and getting angry by sin sod, when for a Thai, this is just a normal part of a wedding ceremony.
      Reply

  165. John Sweden says

    The more i read about the subject the more i realize that there are no certain and absolute truth about the sin sod. One thing i know from experience is that the thais tend to bend the reality, in this case the traditions to gain their own needs. Me and my GF lives in Sweden since 3years and had a very turbulent first year. One subject that came up and kept coming up the first two months was the sin sods be or not to be. My opinion has always been BIG NO TO SIN SOD. It´s buried so deep within my mentality that i would rather stab myself then lower my values down to the show off for neighbors/saving family face level. No i don´t respect the thai tradition in this case. Just because it´s a tradition doesn´t means it´s a good one! Keep in mind that we do live in Sweden and intend to do that until we retire or for the rest of our lives. As a matter of fact i don´t want to get married at all. Why marry when it´s just a show off and an un holy alliance that in reality doesn´t mean much. I might change my mind about the marriage thing in the future but today it´s not among the priorities in our life. If we get kids things might change... Intresting thing is that my GF has adopted most of my opinions now. I think that one big reason is that she is no longer living in Thailand. She can nowadays think for herself, analyze and speak her opinion with her own words (in 3 languages) without "losing face" if someone has better arguments or if she realizes that she was wrong. Back to sin sod. We live in Sweden. My GF has a university degree and had a good job when we met. It is my money. Means exactly that. It is my money! Her family is from the north. They do not need our support. I have made it clear that i will support the day it´s needed, if she´s not working and making money by herself by then. If we build or invest anything in Thailand it will be her property if we brake up. She will get the benefits of the swedish welfare system, and that´s worth much more then a sin sod. As a matter of fact she´s studying right now in Sweden and the school costs me 100€ / year - Allmost for free.This is our life. Her family is ok with everything. As a matter of fact they often support me when we disagree in a subject.From a faring point of view a marriage with a thai is often a lose or lose situation. I am now talking about the poor or the lower middle class citizens. Adding a sin sod to this is a scam unless it is not made very clear that you won´t be asked to finance the familys life in the future. Reality is that you will be emotionally blackmailed the day someone gets sick and there´s no money to pay the hospital bill. Either way, you lose! This is strictly from an economic point of view.
    Reply

    • Mr. says

      I agree to this post entirely! Being from Norway, myself, I guess my cultural values are similar to yours.. I think, respectfully, the tradition of SinSod is a backwards tradition based on class mindset I detest.. Having said that, I really respect and love many aspects of Thai Culture..My strong opinions also brings me i conflict with my own culture from time to time.. so this is not a case of my euro-centrisism blinding me.. If my Thai girlfriend lived in Norway, I would not marry her at all.. I am not religious, and my countries laws are accomodating to the fact that many people think like me.. There is therefore getting increasingly less important to marry for tax reasons or other practical reasons..There is however one exception.. and that is bringing a GF to Norway.. (Almost?) impossible to get legal papers in order if the foreign partner is not married to the local resident.So I have fallen for this girl.. and she wants to move to my country and start a life for me. Unfortunately this means I have to marry her... She is a modern woman, and she actually agrees with my views on SinSod..I have had lengthy conversations about her father.. to explain important differences between our cultures and legal/practical organization.. He understands that my "wealth" is bound up in the country I live: with high taxation, free health care, free education etc..After I have paid taxes and mortgages on my condo - I don't have a lot money left.. My income (after tax) is infact not that different from my GF's dad. But unlike him, I can't put aside a lot of money in a savings account, because living costs here are completely different from his and because the economic system I live under makes sure that the taxations I pay on both income and the goods I buy is made available for me for free, should I get cancer or other expensive-to-treat illnesses.Her dad both thinks it is funny and is proud about driving a newer and more expensive car than me, but he also understand that should he get sick, there is no public system to compensate him for the business he loses, neither to pay expensive hospital bills.. so while he, if unlucky, might be forced to sell both his car and his house to cover medical bills, I would hardly be set back at all, should the same thing happen to me.I have told him honestly that I despise the SinSod tradition, just like I despise some traditions in my own country.. and that it is simply out of the question to put a million bath on the table, unless it is for show only - and even that, I would not like. I think public displays of whealth to show of class is stupid and uncivilized - both when it happens in the west and in the east..As I said, I like a lot of things about Thai culture... but this class-thing is something I despise with a passion.. We spent hundreds of years in the west to try our best to abolish it.. why should I embrace it when I come to Thailand? "You should not wai people of lower position than you"... well.. I don't consider anyone "lower" or "higher" than me. It's all bullshit to me. BTW, not all Thais like this "class thing", and one of my best Thai friends in BKK says.. "I'll wai fucking everyone - my respect paid to my fellow Thai isn't tied up to their family name or the make of the car they drive"I think I am lucky to have met a woman with parents who has a modern midset about these things.. if it had been any different, our future marriage would be in trouble.I want to thank mr. TTT for an excellent blog! I think what you write on this page is very interesting and useful. Why I completely agree with you that no-one should marry across cultural boarders without knowing and tolerating the culture you marry into, at the same time no-one should compromise with their personal morality.If you are not a fan of the Thai feudal class hierarchy, you should not help Thailand uphold this medieval tradition. The rationalization behind keeping up this tradition is all just empty rethorics. In my view it reflects a view upon women that is deeply sexist and is certainly also in-directly linked to the Thai culture of prostitution.. which is centuries older than what happens in the red-light districts aimed at falang tourists.To "pay for the mothers milk" apply only to the female offspring of a family.. which stress the fact how women are seen as property. First she belongs to her parents, and as she marry, she belongs to her husband. If she is divorced her value as property is 'returned' to her family.. and now her Sin Sod is lowered if she re-marries, as a 'used' woman is considered less worth - her value is even lower if she has children.How is SinSod related to prostitution? Not directly of course - any Thai will of course deny this from their cultural view-point - but indirectly it reflects an ancient view upon women as property with a value - a view that has existed (and still exists many places) in any and all cultures throughout history as far as I know.The fact that a Sin Sod is estimated based on wether the girl is a virgin or not, wether she has had a BF or not, been married, have children and what social class she belongs too etc. is not only a marker for a class society, but also a marker for a deeply primitive collective sexism.If I wanted to marry my GF according to Thai traditions, my parents would have to discuss Sin Sod with her parents - and if my parents were "good negotiators", they would respectfully bring up the fact that my GF was not a virgin, and was in a relationship before me - and according to tradition, hence bring the Sin Sod down. I am cringing just from thinking about it. The fact that I have slept around extensively and lived with a woman for 8 years prior to meeting my future wife.. would be of no importance at all.. Any way you look at this, it is blatant sexism.A collegue married a woman from a poor Issan village in his early twenties. They have stayed together for 20 years soon, and live in Norway. He has bought farm land for his wife's family, and they travel there every year. Recently his wife told him about a discussion between her mother and the mother in the neighbouring farm. The two neighbour daughters were approaching adulthood, and their desperatly poor mother (who had a creepy brother living in BKK) was contemplating the following dilemma: Her brother could arrange "work" for the two girls - they would be offered a one-off sum for each of the girls, plus a monthly revenue from the income the girls would have as entertainers. Since the girls were known for their beauty well beyond the village borders, the mother were contemplating wether she should keep the daughters at home and hope they would bring in good Sin Sod, or "hire" them out for business - knowing that this would reduce their value when they married later.The issue of Sin Sod is of course a complex matter. When falangs encounter it, they can deal with it in many different ways. Some will pay up with out blinking - not because they respect Thai culture - but simply because the money is not a big deal for them financially speaking. Some - like me - have moral issues, but - unlike me - they decide to be pragmatic about it and pay up. Others don't mind the tradition but struggle with the finances, as marrying abroad and bringing a wife home is costly to begin with - so they might even get into debt by credit financing their marriage/sin sod.Then there is the guys like me, who might even not be looking to marry a Thai per se, but happens to fall in love with one, and then has to decide wether they should compromise with their personal ethics or not. Luckily, my GF does not care about these things - the only time she brings up marriage is when we discuss our future in Norway, VISA issues, and so forth. She is a modern and ambitous woman who is looking forward to continue her studies in Norway and pursuit a professional career of her own.There is a somewhat tragic-comic perspective to this, and that has to do with the fact that an overwhelming part of those who bring home a wife from Thailand, also are customers of the sex industry. Furthermore, ALL of the Thai/Norwegian couples I have met, the wife comes from poor conditions in Isaan or other poverty-ridden parts of the North. If you find an Isaan or hill-tribe woman in Pattaya, BKK or Phuket, like these guys for the most part have done, you are most probably marrying a (former) prostitute. What baffles me, is that a lot of these guys - happy to pay for sex - suddenly feels paying a sin sod is immoral, because "you can't buy real love". The fact is that most of these marriages has nothing whatsoever to do with "real love". An attractive young woman does not marry a middle-aged average-Joe plumber who doesn't even speak her language because of "real love". The world hardly ever swings this way. My guess is that at least 90% of the falang/thai marriages, in truth are stories about a westerner going to a third world country to buy a wife.Let's be real. If these women were living next door to these wife-seeking guys, they wouldn't even look at them... not in a million years. The women want a way out of poverty - and a Thai man of their same class cannot offer them that. Perhaps they are "tainted" from sex-work, or have a child from a former marriage. The men want a shapely, young wife... but in their own country they couldn't score a "shapely woman in her 20's or early 30's" if their life depended on it.I am not passing moral judgement here - there are as many reasons for marriages as there are married couples in this world. And I am sure many thai/falang marriages turn out well - with real love and real trust as ingredients. But to think most of the falang/thai marriages is not about money from the very beginning, is to turn a blind eye to the real world. When guys who buy sex suddenly think paying for a sin sod is immoral, they have lost me.I shared a table with a German guy once, and he was dealing with the family of a young woman he wanted to marry - "a wild animal in bed.. and she can cook too!", he let me know. However the main topic of our conversation was how much he hated her mother, who had asked for a 200.000 BTH sin sod - "like a fucking mamasan... it feels so... unromantic". Luckily the guy left my table before I acted on the strong urge to kick his teeth in.. but he had some "business to attend to up on soi 21". - Sounds romantic, I said. He missed my sarcasm and laughed "Indeed!" (- he would part with just about 1/20th of the sin sod in question on that night alone).Either way you feel about SinSod, I think the key thing is open communication with the family of the woman you have fallen for. Whether you are comfortable with the tradition of sin sod or not, is up to anyone who finds himself in this situation.A marriage is a big compromise, anyway - there is both give and take. Bringing a woman out of her country, away from her country, her family and friends, to a completely different language and culture is not anyone should take lightly. The issue of Sin Sod is after all small compared to the many other challenges you may encounter.Most likely the person reading this blog live in/hail from a country that grants its inhabitants some sort of safety net when they get sick or old and need care. If I go bankrupt, I would have worries, but my family will be taken care of, my parents will receive good medical treatment if they were in need, a room in a free home for the aged when time comes, and even a publicly sponsored funeral if I am unable to pay. In Thailand, there are almost no such security - no free medical services, no pensions, no public education beyond 6th grade, no nothing - so family is EVERYTHING. Unfortunally, many falangs fail to understand this... you can even read it in this comments section. They worry about the "emotional blackmail" that may occur, should a close family member back in Thailand need expensive medical treatment. No, mr. Selfcentered Ignorant Lowlife Bastard, this is not "emotional blackmail" - this is real, genuine worry for the people your future wife loves more than anyone in the world. Furthermore, by marrying a woman from a culture where Family is the safety net, it is her duty to help. If you want a terrible marriage, a good recipy would be to marry a girl from a poor background in a country with no public "safety-net" - with the intentions not to contribute financially should her family need support for expensive medical care or any other desperate issue. "Emotional blackmail"?? - no wonder you guys need to go to a third world country to find a partner.
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      • TheThailandLife says

        I don't disagree with your points. I too do not like the class system in Thailand, neither the caste system in India. I'm not a fan of the money system full stop - in fact I support the Venus Project. But regardless of my views, Thailand's social hierarchy and associated traditions are not going to change any time soon. And let's not put the blame on the average Thai family here. As in any society, most just follow what others do and the example set by their superiors. Real change must start at the top. Until it does, social prejudice will continue to infect all aspects of society and people will adhere to what authority dictates.But let's take a step back here for a moment and look at our own countries. It's easy for us foreign folk to point fingers and say how disgusted we are by sin sod and the apparently money-motivated aspects of Thai culture. But really, I ask you, how different is this to our own culture? Sure, in our so-called "democracies" we have sugarcoated our approach to life in ironic pseudo liberalism, but all we do is use intelligent verbiage to hide the fact that we do pretty much do the same things as those we judge.Take weddings as an example: I was on the phone to a friend the other day who is getting married in 2017. He is arguing with his GF about how much the wedding is going to cost because she is being pressured to keep up with others in her social circle. This type of keeping face, or keeping up with the Jones' as we call it, is quite normal.The average UK wedding costs in excess of 20k GBP: Thousands spent on dresses, cars to pick people up and drop them off, swanky venues and weird and wonderful entertainment. People waste money in the most sickening ways. At least in most cases the sin sod paid by foreigners helps the wife's family buy some land or make much-needed alterations and additions to the house. It actually makes a difference to someone's life who needs it. It is only the really rich Thais who waste money on expensive hotel venues and a Rolls Royce to turn up in.The reality is that the large majority of foreigners marrying a Thai woman might give say 300k sin sod to the family and spend less than 100k on the actual wedding - and have a great time! That comes in at 70% cheaper than the average wedding in the UK.Being from the UK, I'm the last person that can afford (pardon the pun) to point the finger about classism in Thailand. I mean, the UK monarchy is hugely influential in politics; we know this from the letters that revealed lobbying of the government by Prince Charles. We have a House of Lords that is also hugely influential in the running of the country, and guess what, the members get their positions through privilege, not through a public vote. I could go on, but I'm sure you see my point here.
        Reply

  166. Trent says

    First off, thanks for a wonderful informative site. I read through each and every comment and realized many people here know a little of quite a bit about Thai cultures. Even though you base you findings on a few Thai natives, the comments fulfill many questions. Some are biased and some are subjective but overall, it's nice to hear from all angles.My situation : I dated a Thai girl now, on and off for about 5 years in Canada. She is a permanent resident but not a Citizen yet. Lately, we lived together for about a year. She completed her Master's on-line from a Bangkok University last week and did it on her own. She paid for it. Her parents, (farmers from Sisaket), are extremely proud of her and she's been sending monies home for 7 years allowing the parents to accumulate over 60 rai's of land and although she continues to send money every month to support the family.Never did the issue of Sin Sod come up during us being together other than recently when we got more serious and she decided that there was no future together since she had heard my opinion of Sin Sods. I didn't know much about it and because she always told me we would marry in Canada and never have to worry about it unless we married in Thailand.Suddenly things have changed. Guess her mum, aunts and relatives are curious to know more about me and intentions. Of course this had caused more pressure on her and she now made a decision that I need to show face to her parents. Show them that I can support her.She told me her mum doesn't care about Sin Sod or "show" but what was important was that if I visited her village, would be best to stay at a hotel apart and her mum advised it would be best to come visit as a "friend" so I wouldn't be considered as a "Kee noch or Keniiow". I found that offensive but she had explained the mum and family were protecting my identity as I am not these things. Hmmm... ???So now, when the conversation arose, she told me that although her mum doesn't want Sin Sod, what she does expect is to show that I can support her daughter/family by buying land, (about 5 to 10 Rai), and build a small house in of course "her name". I asked about 1 Rai and she said they don't sell in those samller amounts and buying more would show that should anything occur between us, (split-up), then she would be taken care of with the farming of that land. She told me the reason Thai's do this is because so many men go to Thailand and since there are so many women there, they run the risk of losing their man. Well, hmm ok,, all fine but isn't that more expensive than a Sin Sod ? I researched the price of land in that region and it varies greatly. She even said we didn't have to marry and that alone would show "face". Isn't getting married better so I can hire Siam Law firm and get some protection through a pre-nup ?I of course, well educated with a double masters myself and want anyone's opinion of this type of agreement. Is it too much, fair , better etc ? I assume this would cost me about $500,000 bht. I of course questioned what if she left me afterwards and what commitment do I have from her and she got a little insulted and said, her family and her would are not the type to "screw" anyone and she's brought up to marry only once and for life. She said this would be the place we can retire later on.Remember, I've know my gf for 5 years and helped her lots when we first met but of course I was never serious with her. To be honest, I was a playboy and since I have fallen in love. But love is blind and I don't want to be a statistic as I've read about in all blogs.What's your opinion as I know you are familiar with the Isan regions as well and you're gf is from there too.Any opinion from knowledgeable people would be appreciated. Yes, I am nervous about this as I also do know how "quickly" Thais women can change and become real cold. I don't meant o generalize but let's be realistic. Security is important to Thai people.Thanks so much ! Really looking forward to constructive comments.
    Reply

    • TheThailandLife says

      Hi Trent,marriage in Thailand reflects the wealth and success of the bride and groom, and having lived in Canada and being a Master's Graduate, this will be expected (by the extended family and locals) to be reflected in her ceremony.Whether foreigners like it or not, from the poorest to the richest families in Thailand, Sin Sod is a cultural aspect of the Thai wedding.From what you have said - it sounds like her parents don't need the money, what with the land they have amassed and the money sent home by their daughter over the years. So surely you can just show an amount that reflects their daughter's status and get it back afterwards?I know of poor, uneducated Thais who've had 200-300,000 Baht sin sod. For an educated girl marrying a foreigner, such an amount would be an insult to her family. In Thai culture, like the majority of other Asian countries and many Mediterranean Arab countries, you don't marry down; you marry equal or up.Think of it this way: Imagine the whole village gossiping that their daughter's wedding was akin to that of a local, poor, uneducated girl who'd sold her body in Pattaya and married a foreign man twice her age. That would be a huge loss of face for them; something they'd struggle to live with in a small-minded community.In their minds, if you want to marry their daughter, you must demonstrate that you are capable of taking care of her, that you are equal or greater status and a suitable match for their daughter. This must also be demonstrated to the rest of the family and the locals through sin sod, and as your GF has stated, acquisition of land or a building of a house.Regarding building the house, however, this would have been something in your GF's mind for many years. My best Thai friend (girl) is single, yet she has built her parents a new home and plans to live there later in life. This has been a dream for her since she started her own business.One way many girls realise this dream is to marry a foreigner, and it has become somewhat of an expectation that the foreigner will move in to the area and build a big house. But this isn't solely an expectation for foreigners. Any successful Thai woman marrying a Thai man would already have the intention of buying land and building a house in her home town.Even though you are probably, and rightly, thinking this is all so materialistic, consider that the expectation on Thai daughters from poorer families is huge. Sadly, many parents pressure their daughters into sending home more and more money, using the fact that "we brought you up and made a sacrifice" as a ongoing excuse to push the daughter to provide for her parents and elevate the status of the family within the community. Even sadder is that usually this money is mismanaged and squandered.Of course, this pressure and cultural expectation leads to many women marrying for money rather than love, as the respect for and demands of one's family come before your own happiness.My wife was born in Isan, but luckily for me her attitude is very different. She can't stand the whole "caring what everyone else thinks" and small-minded mentality of country people. This may be because she left the area in her teens to attend University and then work in Bangkok.She has some land in her hometown already, but we don't want to live there so we won't be building a house. We can stay in her mum's house or a hotel when we visit. Land is a good investment where her mum lives because they are near the main road and opposite a Tesco, etc, but I'd rather invest in the UK where my daughter will most likely attend school.I am aware that some villagers probably gossip and say, why hasn't that farang built a huge house and a 4x4, and why doesn't he support her extended family and buy the neighbours whisky? But I/we don't care. This is not a life I'd choose. I'm not anywhere near retired and have no intention of ever living in an Isan community where I have nothing in common with the people. It's not in my nature to spend money to impress people and make fake friends – neither do I want my daughter around a mentality where the value of a person is equated by how much money they have. As a young family, we are happy living in a vibrant city like BKK or London.My advice is don't do anything you aren't comfortable with. You can't buy land in your name. So it won't be yours - unless your wife leases it to you for 30 years or you set up a company = hassle.Show what her parents want for the Sin Sod and agree that it will be given back. If they are short on cash, agree a "gift" to be given that you can comfortably afford to give.Also, your wife (future) must consider your culture too. Marriage is a compromise, and there must be a balance. For example, if you do the sin sod then she must accept that you don't want to buy land. Moreover, if they want to save face, why can't her parents just say you bought them some of that 60 rai they have already? Or why can't they just say you've given them x amount of money? I mean, if it's all for show, just tell the villagers what they want to hear, right?If your wife wants to build a house there; once you're married, she can save up and do that down the line. Rome wasn't built in a day, as they say. There's no rush. Set your own pace and don't do anything that deep down in your stomach just doesn't feel right.If she loves you, she'll respect your position and come to a agreement that is fair.
      Reply

    • Trent says

      Wow Chris, thanks so much for all your input. I would just like to mention a few things you wrote about.She does live in Canada but her masters is from a Thai University she completed on-line. Don't think that makes a difference to them anyhow as they regard it as she's educated.Her parents apparently are not asking for money as they say they don't care about the "show" or sin sod. So they prefer I show them that I can take care of their daughter and buying land and building a house means more to them to save face as the villagers will see that I am not a Keenoch. Therefore showing the money and getting it back doesn't seem to be an option for them.My gf wants me to visit her village so I can see how they live. Basically, they keep asking her for $ cause the farms keep flooding. What my gf did tell me yesterday was that she's more interested in helping her mum as her first priority with upgrading or building them a new home. She didn't say I had to help but who knows what the intentions are.You're absolutely right about showing her parents that I am capable of taking care of her. That's what the land and house is for. I don't have to build the house right away but at least offer to buy land in her name. You may be absolutely right that building a house was in her mind from the beginning. What I find hard to understand is why has she never, in 5 years, when I had helped her out with support and free living accommodations, was not ever clearly mentioned. It was always about her doing it on her own as she has always been very independent.In the past when Sin Sod was discussed she always told me she didn't agree with it and that she would just get married in Canada and she was tired of sending money to the parents. Her parents do not waste money in any way. They've successfully invested their daughters money wisely.As for marrying a foreigner and building a big house, she always did say that was not her intentions. She's happy with a very small home on her land.It's really scary when you mention that unfortunately these women marry for money rather than love since she had always loved me greatly. It was just in the past few months that all these expectations came into play.The problem in marrying for money rather than love is she, now being Americanized, can leave me for anyone else at any time if she married for money rather than love. This isn't putting much trust but I had this same conversation and she said that the Thai women marry just once and for life. Uhuh, right. I've seen differently. She may have been referring to her upbringing. Recently her aunt wrote me and found out I was her bf and is now saying that the minimum amount expected to give to her parents would be $2 million Baht. My gf laughed at it and said was none of her business.I like what you said about it's not your intention to spend money to impress people and make fake friends. Apparently, he family isn't like that either as she tells me. But then again, why the pressure to buy land and build a home??I would probably prefer you suggestion to "show" the villagers the money and agree to take it back and gift what I can afford or what I presume is sufficient but what would that amount be ? Obviously, from your note 2 to 300,000.00 baht would be an insult but if I bought the land first, say 5 to 10 rai that would cost around 10 to 15k u.s.I can't answer why the parents don't tell the villagers that I was part of the acquisitions to help buy the 60 rai. After all, if she wasn't living rent free with me, she wouldn't be able to send that money home. She only made around $16 to 25k here in Canada.She does want me to visit first to see if I would even like her village to live later on.You summed it up well when you mentioned that "if" she does love me, she'll respect my position and come to an agreement that is fair". I can tell you that things have changed rapidly in the last 4 to 5 months and then the pressure and demands came about.Thanks so much again for all your advice. You are pretty much on the ball with their thinking and are absolutely correct on what I read and how they feel. The question now becomes, how sincere is she and thinking I've known her well for so long I find it amazing how quickly things can change.Did I mention she also said that if I bought the land we really didn't have to get married right away. That blew me away cause I told her don't you want to get married and she said it's every girl's dream and of course but doesn't want to pressure me.. lolThanks !!! Trent.
      Reply

      • TheThailandLife says

        It seems pretty clear that the parents and family are piling on the pressure. As you said, previously she was living her life independently and free of the small-minded village mentality of showing off one's wealth. She has also said that she is tired of sending her parents money; another indication that she has been under pressure to do so.Unfortunately, this is the case for so many Thai women, particularly from the Northeast where the culture puts terrific pressure on daughters to provide for their parents - at a