You are here: Home / Culture / Sin Sod – What You Should Pay to Marry Your Thai Girlfriend

Sin Sod – What You Should Pay to Marry Your Thai Girlfriend

Not too long ago, a forum update email dropped into my inbox from one of the major Thai forums. The leading tittle thread was regarding Sin Sod, sometimes written Sin Sot, and read “Huge Dowry Demanded After Short Relationship With Thai Woman.”

The story was of a guy that had met a 42 year old woman online, and after one month of dating was asking for 500,000 Baht for marriage.

While the advice in the forum was sound, i.e. he should seriously consider his position because it smacks of extortion, a debate ensued regarding Sin Sod – the money paid to a Thai woman’s family by the groom during the marriage ceremony. I was shocked at just how misunderstood this part of Thai culture is by so many foreigners, many of whom have lived in Thailand for many years.

And so, using my own knowledge and experience, and through quizzing three of my good Thai friends, I decided to write a definitive guide to Sin Sod.

sin sod thai dowry

Sin Sod – The Big Debate

You will find a huge amount of misleading information online regarding Sin Sod, and conflicting experiences can be found plastered all over forums and blogs. So, when a foreigner wants to marry his Thai girlfriend and the inevitable subject of Sin Sod arises, it is no surprise that he becomes confused over what he should be paying and why he is expected to pay it.

Part of the problem is that Thai women often don’t explain the concept of Sin Sod very well, which isn’t at all surprising, considering that for them it’s a standard tradition and an age-old part of Thai culture. And like traditions the world over, some people simply participate and follow along without ever understanding the history behind it.

Fortunately, I am lucky enough to have a cross-section of Thai friends from varying backgrounds, and being the nosey parker I am, I have endeavoured to collect as much information as possible regarding this tradition.

Of course, if we want to know the truth about Sin Sod, the best people to ask are Thai people themselves. Yet like many Thai customs, I find that foreigners have a gross misconception of what Sin Sod is all about, inherited largely from other misinformed foreigners.

Before I begin, I am not by any means saying that the information in this post is entirely definitive or one hundred percent historically factual. However, what I can say is that the information is the experience of a cross-section of Thai people, all of whom are university educated, have experienced many Thai weddings and are well-versed in Thai culture.

What Sin Sod Is Not

Firstly, let’s get one thing straight: Sin Sod is not a dowry. You are not buying a woman or approaching her family to buy her. The Western-centric viewpoint that Sin Sod equates to the purchasing of a Thai bride is completely incorrect.

To fully understand the tradition, you need to put the word “dowry” out of your mind, not least because any suggestion to your future in-laws of purchasing their daughter will be very offensive.

What Is Sin Sod?

There are generally three reasons for the payment of Sin Sod; they are as follows:

1. Traditionally, the eldest unmarried daughter takes care of her parents until she gets married, and therefore the Sin Sod in some respects replaces that income for the parents. As you might know, it is common for the average Thai woman to send a portion of her salary to her parents each month.

After marriage this usually stops, so as you can imagine, for parents with no pension plan and little savings, the Sin Sod is a much needed payday. Now you can see why richer families don’t usually accept this payment or expect it, quite simply because they don’t need it.

2. Once a woman has been married, and/or has kids, the structure of Thai society makes it very hard for her to find a man of decent stature. Therefore, the Sin Sod acts as a sort of insurance in the event that the husband leaves her and doesn't offer post separation financial support. The bottom line is, women don't walk away with half of everything like they do in some Western countries.

If a woman finds herself back living with her parents as a single mother, the Sin Sod insures that there will be some money/land in the family to support the family. Thai society also dictates that the older a Thai woman gets the harder it becomes for her to find a job, let alone a well-paid one. So again, should she find herself alone in the future, at least the family will have some money put by for some inevitably rainy years ahead.

3. Where poorer families are concerned, Sin Sod is a repayment for the money invested in their daughter. Many families sell land, borrow money and generally go without to put their kids through university, or in some cases to simply put food on the table. The Sin Sod is essentially a repayment for that investment. The amount paid for Sin Sod could be considered relative to the sacrificial cost of bringing up the child – thus the reason it is often referred to as payment for the “mother's milk”.

6. Age is a contentious and quite horrible issue when it comes to Sin Sod. I mean, when ex childhood superstar singer Tata Young, at almost 40 years old married Prame, the son of the FairTex boxing brand owner, she commanded 100 million Baht. But for a 40-year-old woman from a poor, rural family and a few kids in tow, it's unlikely that more than 200,000 Baht would be on offer. That said, the type of guys such a woman would have access to wouldn't be able to afford more than that anyway. But who knows, occasionally a rich man does fall for a poorer woman in good old classist Thailand, and to show his wealth he would no doubt slap down a hefty sin sod.

And so age comes fairly low down on the list. Sin Sod is generally decided by status, family wealth, family name and accomplishment/education of the female in question.

Who Pays Sin Sod?

Any man marrying a Thai woman is expected to pay Sin Sod. The price is usually agreed between the two families, yet where a foreigner is concerned and his parents aren't present, the duty falls on him to ask the family how much they expect.

Who Doesn’t Pay Sin Sod?

In the modern day many families don’t expect Sin Sod, and many will tell the boyfriend that they don’t want any money. However, it is very rare that money isn’t shown at the wedding, albeit that it is returned in full afterwards.

*It should be noted that to expect the money back or to ask for it back is unacceptable. One will be offered it back if that is to be the case. Also note that you may not be required to pay Sin Sod if the woman you are marrying has been married before. See the section below for more details.

How Much Should I Be Paying For Sin Sod?

Historically this has (generally) depended on six factors, as listed and discussed below:

  1. Family Name
  2. Education
  3. Prior Marital Status
  4. Dependants
  5. Job
  6. Age

1. If your girlfriend is from a well-to-do family, you could be looking at a fair lump. However, in this situation, the money will most likely be for show and returned to you after the wedding.

2. If your girlfriend is university educated or beyond, then it is likely that you will be looking at a minimum of 300,000 Baht. This is a low-moderate amount by modern-day Thai standards. For example, a friend at my girlfriend’s work is soon to marry a Thai lady of a high school level education, and he is paying 200,000 Baht. His salary is approximately 25,000 per month.

3. If your girlfriend has been married before, then you should pay less. You might argue – on grounds of tradition – that you shouldn’t be paying at all. However, as a respectful gesture, and to show your respect, you should offer something.

Remember that marriage is intended to happen once in Thai culture, and therefore importance is emphasized on marrying for the first time. Unlike second and third marriages in the west, which may be seen as equally as important and “true love” matches, in Thailand they are not that much of a big deal. Superstar second and third marriages are the exception.

4. If your girlfriend has kids, tradition dictates that you should pay less. This stems from the age-old thinking that she is tainted in some way, already given to another man, so to speak. You will become responsible for another man’s seed, and for that you shouldn’t be paying for the privilege. (Not my words, I might add)

5. In terms of a woman's employment, it's hierarchical and usually correlates with education and earnings. For example, you'd pay/show more to marry a banker than a cleaner.

My Girlfriend Is Asking For Too Much

Many foreigners find themselves in this position, and it isn’t necessarily that your girlfriend is trying to con you, more so that she is trying to secure higher face for her family, and in some cases to elevate her family's wealth.

Face is everything in Thai society. To marry a foreigner with a Sin Sod of less than 200,000 Baht, would be quite a loss of face, not just for her but also for you.

The fact that she is marrying a foreigner will mean tongues wagging in the village, so when you say, “What! No way! I am not paying to marry you”, or you announce a payment less than what an average Thai guy earning 10-15k a month would pay, you get branded a “Farang kee-nock” (literally translated as bird shit foreigner, but refers to a poor, lower class foreigner), or “Keniiow” (stingy).

The folks in the village will have a good laugh, “Why is she marrying a foreigner when he can’t afford to pay anymore than one of us folk”. Yes, unfortunately most Thais believe, as many westerners do, that Thai women only marry foreigners for financial security, unless of course the Thai woman is richer or as wealthy as the foreigner.

Anyway; the point here is not to take your girlfriend’s word for it,because the tradition is that you are supposed to ask the mother and father the amount they want. It is not for the woman to tell the man what she wants. So arrange to meet with the parents and politely ask them what they expect.

They will probably say one of two things:

1. “Oh no, mai pen rai. We don’t want anything”.

2. “It's up to you”.

The first answer doesn’t mean you say, “Okay, great”, and go and buy a new car instead. By answering in this way they are exercising their “grengjai”. They are being polite. What they actually mean is, “Tell us what you WANT to pay, and you will be able to tell by our body language whether we think it’s okay or not”. So basically you need to make out you really want to pay. As you can see, this all falls in nicely with the non-confrontational Thai style.

The second answer means, “What do you want to pay… but don’t insult me”!

*It should be noted that some families might genuinely want nothing at all.

I Hate This Talk Of Money – It All Seems So Shallow

Yes, and for the most part, it is. Sin Sod is largely about face. “Look at my daughter, she went to university and married a good man with a good job”. Or even, “Look at my daughter, she didn’t go to university, but she is so beautiful and hardworking that she married a lovely rich foreign guy”.

As a foreigner, you may feel like you are buying your girlfriend and have become a victim of the old “Thailand ATM” syndrome. And depending on the circumstances, that could be the case. But if you're in a secure, genuine relationship, you need to forget what the misinformed barstool gossips say and consider your girlfriend and the culture, and yes, she too needs to consider your wallet.

Like it or not, Sin Sod is a big part of Thai culture, and, as soon as a Thai woman announces marriage, the big question on everyone's lips is, “How much Sin Sod“.

Why? Because Sin Sod is a reflection of her, you, her family and your family.  A Thai woman lives to make her family proud, to show the other villagers that they are a good family, that they are to be respected, and that they are on the up, as it were.

But I Am Compromising My Western Marriage Traditions!

I hear you. For example I come from a culture where the woman’s father is supposed to pay all the wedding costs. It’s more a 50-50 thing in the modern day. But think about it like this: Your girlfriend has probably already sacrificed many of her cultural traditions to accommodate you in her life. Living with you and sleeping with you before marriage are two of those sacrifices.

Without you knowing it, she will have been the talk of her village for living with you without being married – this reflects badly on her family. Don’t forget either that you chose her as your girlfriend, and with all due respect, before getting involved with a woman from another culture, you really should understand the culture first.

On an emotional level, you need to consider that just like every Western girl dreams of a white wedding to make her Daddy proud, the majority of Thai women grow up dreaming of marrying in their home town and making their parents proud with a respectable Sin Sod, and in turn elevating the family face.

The way I see it is this: An average wedding in the UK costs 20k, so if you pay 4-6k to marry your Thai girlfriend in a village ceremony that costs no more than 1-2k, you still save a whopping 12k!

That said, in the UK you get gifts and money from your girlfriend’s family, so that offsets some of the cost. Truth is, you aren’t likely to get a bean here unless you marry into a wealthy family, but then setting up home here is cheaper, as is taking care of a woman post-marriage.

Feel free to pitch in with your experience. It would be really useful to know what married guys paid, or didn’t pay, and how the process was handled.

I would like to say a big thanks to Marisa, Noynar and Noi for contributing their cultural knowledge and helping me write this piece.

 

Comments Sort by : newest | oldest

  1. I’m currently due to marry my thai girlfriend . We have a daughter together an Think this helps showing your commitment . I’m going to buy 2 baht gold an 100000 baht .
    That’s all I can afford . I understand cultures , but western culture is that the girls parents help out with wedding cost . That won’t be happening as they don’t have much to start with .
    I don’t believe this will be the last time I help out with money . Don’t see why you’d start married life of skint by giving all your money away .
    Your going to need about £2000 for a wedding visa to get her back home with you aswell . All money money .

    Reply

    • I agree. This seems reasonable. As you say, in the UK the brides usually pick up some of the wedding cost, which won’t happen there. Contribute what you can afford to. Better to save money than splash it on one day of celebration.

      Reply

  2. Hello, I would first like to thank everyone for their comments on this post and for the post itself.
    I have recently started talking to a 36 year old lady from the Isan region. She is much different then I expected of any woman from Thailand but, with that said she shares the same common thread, the same typical….American/ Foreigner has more money and can give her a better life then the one she currently has.
    She has this innocent quality about her. Very attentive, caring, big -hearted, lives and wants to provide for her parents (oldest child/ Daughter). She genuinely seems to care about me (here comes the “but”), but when it comes to her thoughts on money related matters, I guess like a lot of Americans who have dealt with the greedy nature of American women, I’m a bit suspicious.
    She has made me aware of Sin Sod from the very first week I met her and suggested I read about Thai customs, which I found as an endearing quality, she was upfront with me. As of lately though I am again feeling a little out of sorts.
    Again She is 36 but gorgeous, she is divorced from a Thai man and her last relationship before me was with an Englishman who I’d assume she met in Udon Thani. She has no kids, no college education and comes from a farming family. She works her butt off (basically 3 jobs at a market, as a Nanny and her families farm), takes care of everything for her parents, plus takes care of her Nephew and his College education.
    She just told me if I want her to come to the US with me, I would have to commit to taking care of her family financially approximately 25000 baht a month. I understand what she does and means to her family and I obviously know if she’s in the States with me she wouldn’t be working at first or for sometime. I again, obviously wouldn’t want her family to suffer in her absence.
    What other then helping as she asks could I do? A Sin Sod amount has not been discussed at all and now she is asking for financial support so she can cut back a bit and not have to work so hard?
    Anyone deal with a similar situation?
    Any advice?
    I’m concerned, feel like I could be getting scammed but that could be my suspicious nature talking.
    She genuinely doesn’t seem like that type to me hence my confusion.

    Reply

    • Hi Rondo,

      I’d be pretty cautious about a situation where the conversation is so heavily focused on finances in the early stages. 25k a month is a lot of money. I know university graduates on that much working in good jobs in Bangkok. I don’t know her but I think most would agree with me that this sounds very transactional, and no doubt it won’t stop at 25k a month. It is not a normal thing to do to mention sin sod in the early stages of dating.

      I think the old rule applies here: don’t do anything you wouldn’t consider doing if you were dating in the US. You wouldn’t be talking about monthly stipends, marriage dowry, moving in together and this sort of stuff so early on.
      Alarm bells started ringing when you wrote: and now she is asking for financial support so she can cut back a bit and not have to work so hard?

      One concern I would have is that this seems to imply that if she moved to the US she would not intend to work. Surely, with no children, and being young, she would work and be able to send that 25k home to her family herself? After all, I assume you’d be providing accommodation, paying bills and providing for her in other ways?

      Go cautiously.

      Reply

  4. hi there im sean im a british born chinese im currently living in london now planning to get married to a thai woman in dec 2017 she is asking for 1,000,000.00 barth plus her brother wants 6 barth of gold she been married before she has a 14 year old son also she does not have any parents she not educated but she from the countryside ,should i have the right not to pay the sin sod any thing and just go ahead with the wedding ????
    is it possible to reason with these thais with out them losing face if im not willing to pay for the sin sod ?????

    Reply

    • Tell her brother to take a running jump! What has he got to do with it? Brothers get nothing. Is the plan for them to keep this money or just show it and give it back, or keep part of it? This is a silly amount of money. If it was me, I’d look to offer 100-150k as a gift (sin sod) to the parents, and spend 50-100k on the wedding/part. This would mean you could get married for not more than £5k GBP. I base this on the fact in the UK a wedding is not going to be less than £15k for 50 guests in a hotel; in Thailand costs are about 1/3 of the UK, so £5k GBP would be reasonable.

      Reply

    • Run! I smell scam because 1. She has no parents. Thus, Sin Sod money is not used for them.

      2. She was married before, which in Thai culture already declares a lesser amount.

      3. Her brother is asking for money – gold. This was never apart of the custom that I can find anywhere. I can’t remember what a Thai exchange student told me long ago.

      4. She has a child from another man’s seed, which in Thai culture also says that less money should be given. All this says that her wanting so much money is a scam! I would run and never look back. I wonder what happened to her first husband and why her parents are dead.

      OTOH, I don’t know how rich you are. And, I can see how brother might be taking care of his future because no parents. Is he basing this on the “I am now the head of the household, so I became the parents and thus I should get money” type of thinking? Is this even a thing in Thailand? If so, I can grace it a little more, but the amount is still way too high.

      Also I can see how she might be somewhat scared about her future because she has a 14 yr old and no husband. I don’t know if her ex left her with a lot of debt or not.

      I used to go to school with a Thai Exchange student way back in the day. I can’t remember what she said about siblings in the case of parents dying prematurely. Even so, this amount seems way too high! 1 million baht plus gold says that you are a very wealthy man and they know it. Unrealistic amount for the reasons I stated.

      Reply

      • hi kytriya

        thanks for your reply i have learn a lot form the points you pointed out i would like to tell you how i met her . i was introduced by casual dressed taxi guys, who ever walk by them they always want (foreigners)to them a tour around floating market which at the of place they take them to they will earn commission from the event verdes.

        Reply

  5. Hi I do have a Thai girlfriend, we are considering marriage.
    She is 34, has one child, divorced some high school education and staying current with her parents in a village. I would not say that they are well off.

    How much Sin Sod should I be paying?

    Reply

    • Hi Mark, I recommend reading through past comments as this has been covered quite extensively. I don’t like to a price on different situations, as it’s uncomfortable. But as you’ll read there are many unreasonable demands being made.

      – Sin sod should be decided between your parents and your wife’s parents.
      – Culturally, it should reflect your wife’s family status, and her status within society: wealth, education, kids/previous marriages, etc.
      – Some families don’t want sin sod. Some women don’t want sin sod.
      – Sometimes sin sod is just for show at the wedding as part of tradition, and other times it is kept (tends to be kept if the family is not well off).
      – Sometimes part of it is kept and part given back.
      – Ideally it should be invested in a home/land/other for the couple (to be half owned by the wife) or kept for the daughter in savings incase you divorce. Or used to make improvements to the current family situation, of which the daughter can benefit.

      Reply

  6. After reading all your comments it is possible to think that the Thai people make daughters just to make money… which means… their daughters never receive love from the parents as they will be sold in the future to their husbands???

    In Thailand everyone is sold… even their daughters… WTF???

    If I had a Thai girlfriend I will never marry… 10 million baht is not a real problem for me but why I shall pay that money??? The daughter feeds her parents, you say… But… if parents cannot afford their own expenses after marriage of their daughters why they make kids? In any country of the world no one asks money from their sons-of-laws… Some Arab countries do that just because they are rude and barbarians… But never, never and never here in Mongolia… in our country… lol

    Reply

  7. I have a Thai girlfriend been seeing each other for some time now we have an age gap as I am 40 now but look much younger than my age she is 23 we have looked at getting married but when asked how much sin sod to marry her the mother is asking 1 million Thai baht and 5 gold bar, she has no kids went to international college and very beautiful is this to much to pay and should we try to get the parents price down as I am western man.
    Before anyone comments about are age difference I still look 26/27 most people say.
    More to the point would like to know what to do?

    Reply

    • Hi Simon,

      A couple of points:

      1. The gold is for your wife, so if she’s happy to have 1 or 2 Baht of gold instead then that would significantly reduce the cost for you – after all this is simply a wedding gift from you to her.

      2. Sin sod of this amount is usually for show. It would be unusual for the family to wish to keep this, particularly if they are a middle class family who don’t need it. Even a poorer family that had struggled to put their child through a good eduction might show this amount but would return the majority of it. So that would be my first question – do they expect to keep it?

      3. International education suggests that they are not poor, so I suspect the money would be returned to you for future investment in either a home or savings account. Perhaps you might offer some of it as a gift to pay for a holiday for them or something like that – it’s down to you.

      Reply

      • My girlfriend is from buriram and many girl have all said from there the 1 million sin sod would be kept by the parents as a gift to them , plus her parents want money just to meet them not a lot but still 25,000 baht just for meeting them so I do think maybe things are changing where parents are starting to want more for there daughters

        Reply

    • We as farang have to start standing up for our selfs , love is love and money for love is well not so good hahaha
      Iam making a stand and saying no sin sod .
      It’s not our way , we bring so much to the table here , take it or leave it ……
      hansom man like me will get snapped up by some one else … be quick girl

      Reply

  8. My 22 year old son who still lives at home and makes minimum wage here in United States has fallen in love with a 21 year old Thai girl, an only child, who is here working at the same bar in a foreign exchange work program. Her dad is a government official and her mom an accountant. She tells my son her parents would want 1,000,000 baht for her. My son can’t even save money for an apartment for himself! How in the world would he pay that kind of money? They would be married and live in the US. Now he’s trying to save money just to go to Thailand because she says he MUST ask his parents face-to-face if he can marry her. What the heck? 22 year old men in the US don’t have that kind of money!

    Reply

    • Hey Lisa,

      it might sound a lot, but it depends on her social status. If she has been educated in a private/international school, speaks English and is from a middle class or wealthy family, it is unlikely her family would have a sin sod of less than that amount. It doesn’t mean they would keep the money, but rather show it at the wedding – it is representational more than anything.

      In past times, such women would usually marry a Thai man from a family of similar status. However, things have changed massively over the last 10 years and more young, educated women from well-to-do families are marrying foreign men of a similar age because they are modern women of the world: They are into western fashion, music, travel etc., and do not want to be bound to the tradition of having to marry who their parents want them to; though sadly many end up having to.

      BTW, I’m assuming that her family are middle class, considering their jobs.

      It is true that tradition dictates he ask her parents, but you also have a say in this, because tradition also dictates that his parents agree too and that a meeting to discuss marriage is between the two families. So you should go to Thailand too, to see if you think her family is suitable.

      It should not all be one-sided. You can then voice your opposition over her proposed sin sod amount. You can also discuss your own culture and how you think things should be done. If two people from different cultures marry there should be a compromise and the traditions of both parties appropriated.

      You are absolutely right though; what 22-year-old has that sort of money hanging around. Even if he did, I would stipulate that if they are to marry the money is simply shown at the wedding and not kept by the parents – I’m assuming they don’t need it. The money would be better spent on a deposit for a property, or saved for their future.

      Personally I think they are way too young. Why the rush? Chill out, enjoy the relationship…God knows these things rarely last at that age anyway. And I’m quite sure if he visited Thailand he’d fall in love with a number of 21-year-old girls!

      Reply

      • I am a 44y/o male American raised in direct contact with an American/Thai family when young and have been traveling Thailand myself for more than 15 years now. I can speak and understand the language and have studied the culture both personally and reading books of Thai sociology(I love so much about Thai culture).

        And… yeah… too young. Your son has no idea what he’s getting into at that age. Also to do it without even visiting Thailand and getting to know the culture would not be wise in any case. In Thai language the phrase “som-nom-na” could be used here. It basically translates into English phrases such as “they got what they deserved,” like a negative outcome that was simply avoidable.

        I hate to stereotype too much on either end but a 22 year old American boy that is usually interested in video games and his car more than saving to buy a home would generally be no match for the Thai raised 21 year old female with a cunning mind for “success.”

        On a completely different note from that logic… The Thai parents may also realize the innocent and youthful spirit of your son’s heart, as well as appreciate and respect his loving emotion for their daughter but these numbers and demands that are expected to NOT be met by your son may simply be easier and more polite than saying “No.”

        I would encourage the relationship emphasizing they take their sweet time and enjoy each other while studying the ways of a new culture. If they don’t last long, well then, that’s that. But if they truly do fall in love and last the grueling test of time I can promise she will be a wonderful addition to your family. An honest hearted respectful Thai family is a joy to know… and be a part of.

        Well, good luck. Or as we say in Thai… “Chawk-dee, krup.”

        Reply

  9. Why would anyone want to marry a woman who isn’t an academic, have her own job and of course lives in her own condo in central Bangkok?

    This is the girl I’m marrying in about 6 month and I have said I will not pay 1 bath in sinsod. However for show I can put up 100.000 bath and she have said her mom will give it all back to me after. And I have said that if her mom dont give it back I will never trust her again and she will have no contact with our future kids.

    And I will also pay for 50% of the wedding dinner for about 200 guests and we are counting it will be about 1200 bath/guest so about 240.000 bath. And this me and my future wife will split on paying (not her mother/stepdad) and the money we make from this/surplus we will pay our honeymoon with.

    And I have also stated that if she doesnt work and make her own money and give to our household we dont even need to marry and can just live together and get kids together anyway. Because that is what we do in Sweden and I dont care about loosing face or anything that stupid.

    So everyone do as I do and drive a hard bargain all the time. Maybe even do a pre nup and write in that her savings or appartment and welth will be payed to the party that is unfathfull if it happens.

    Reply

  10. Hi
    I have been following your blog with great interest I asked my Thai GF whom I have known for 6 months How much Dowery her parents would like so we can get married She is divorced and with one child of 16 She asked her parents and they replied 500 baht. I get on really well with them and talk almost daily via live link on internet phone. My question is; was that meant as a joke or was it a serious answer and do you think I should bother getting married or just stay as BF GF ?

    Reply

  11. Hi great blog.
    I have a question. But this sin sod issue is more to single mom. I recently got to know a thai lady (26 years old, with a daughter 8years old) from Mae Sot.
    She is very reluctant to be with me because of her sad past . SHe said she the daughter is born out of wedlock.

    She is very responsible mom to her daughter and daughter to her dad.
    Two questions :

    a) You mentioned that ‘ if your girlfriend has kids, tradition dictates that you should pay less. This stems from the age-old thinking that she is tainted in some way, already given to another man, so to speak. You will become responsible for another man’s seed, and for that you shouldn’t be paying for the privilege. ‘

    Is it really hard for her to marry another thai men / farang / asian men according to thai culture as in the thai society she will not be accepted easily ? I love her and I told her I dont mind being a good daddy for her.

    b) and so we can pay less. 100k baht is good ? I always think thats really ssufficient.

    She is very different from all the thai women / ladies I know. She is very reluctant to go into relationship and she needs time.

    Whats your advice ?

    Thanks.

    Reply

    • Despite what the old tradition says, the reality is that you should do what is right for you. Should a woman be looked down upon for having a child out of wedlock, or being a single mum? Absolutely not. Should she be considered a “lesser woman” and deserve less than any other woman? Absolutely not.

      What matters, for all of us, is how we treat others; the kindness and compassion we show. What matters is that we work hard for our children and teach them to become better people than we are.

      As I have said before, I don’t like to tell people what sin sod they should pay. I don’t like this tradition as much as the next foreigner (it’s primarily about “face” and status) but if we are marrying into this culture we must accept that this is going to be a part of the marriage – for most of us anyway.

      She sounds like a good person. Get to know her. Take your time. Give her the time she needs. If and when the idea of marriage should arise, I’m sure 100-200k will be fine.

      Reply

      • Hi, while I agree with all you have said about the worth of women I do not agree with your conclusion that 100-200K is fine. I have a daughter and I would consider myself a disgrace financially crippling her future husband. One can talk endlessly about respecting tradition but how antiquated does a ‘tradition’ have to be before you let it go.

        Reply

        • That’s Baht though. So around 1,900 GBP. The average poor working class Thai marriage wouldn’t have a sin sod of less than 50k these days. Of course I agree that no one should ever pay more than they can afford, unless the money is being returned.

          Reply

  12. Hi,

    I am THAI and my boyfriend is American. We are both graduated from universities and
    we are Catholic too. I tried to explain him about Sin Sod but he totally disagreed. Thank you
    for writing this article as I will send it to him. Honestly, My mom an I don’t mind about Sin Sod,
    But I want him to show something about his caring. We have contacted for 4-5 years but we don’t live together (he lives in USA and I live in BKK). We often talked on FaceTime but I accepted it s difficult to have this long distance relationship.

    So I don’t really know what his decision will be.

    Reply

  13. Does the same sin sod apply to marry a Cambodian woman who already has a child not of my own. I mean are the customary laws the same? I been searching te internet for information and your site is the closest I’ve got.

    Reply

  14. I’m Thai girl but my bf’s an American.
    And he’s living in America.
    We’re dating as LDR (Long Distance Relationship).
    Earlier before my bf will fall asleep
    While on the phone.
    I talked with him about the Sin Sod.
    I said if we’re gonna get married as Thai culture you’ll have to pay Sin Sod you my parents just as much as they’ll asking for.
    Then he asked how much could it be.
    I was like 100,000Thb-…?
    He was like wtf that’s so much i can’t pay for that.
    But well i never want his money
    And all i want is to spend the rest of my life with him.
    I’ve been thinking about getting marriage as his culture so he no need to worry about the Sin Sod.
    I hope my family will understand me.
    My bf he’s not a rich guy.
    I understand all his situations.
    Not all of us would ask for money.

    Reply

    • To me this is very simple. You say you love him and not his money. And he’s not interested in paying for a wife. Understandably so. The days when men bought wives are over and someone needs to inform the Thai families who cling to this (and other idiotic) traditions. No offense but there are idiotic traditions in every society. The Thais need to understand theirs too rather than push it on to their children and non Thais who have no reason to adopt stupidity.

      Let me ask you this way. If your boyfriend made you do something for his family and told you it was tradition. Something that went against your tradition. Would you be willing to do it? Say for example, he said his family refuses to pay a sin sod because it’s against their morals?

      If you love him. Tell your parents to step aside. If it’s too difficult then let him go. If it’s too difficult then you don’t love him. You want to spend your life with him and presumably start a family with him right? Then your relationship with him should be your priority.

      Reply

  15. My Thai girlfriend’s (whom I’ve being dating 6 months) mother just found out that we were having sex. She first (the mother) demanded that I start paying her 20,000 baht a month or she would break the relationship up even though she knows her daughter is deeply in love with me as I am with her. She also told me that I needed to marry her daughter in 1 month or she would break the relationship up.

    I told her I could not pay that amount but would start paying 13000 baht per month to help the daughter who is studying her MB.

    A couple of days later and the mother is now demanded that I pay all her debt about 650,000 Baht as a guarantee that I would marry her daughter (because she says she does not trust that I will marry her daughter and it’s her guarantee). She told me If I did not pay then she would break the relationship. I asked her if this was a sin sod and she said no, and it would be up to me if I wanted to pay a sin son when I married her daughter in 8 months.

    I had told her that I would marry her daughter in about 8 months and that right now I could not afford the 650,000 baht debt payment, but would work something (thinking pay it off over 8 months) The mother said a big NO! and told me that in 8 months the price would be 1 to 2 million Baht. I told her that I needed time,so she grabbed her crying daughter and walked away telling me my relationship was over with her daughter.

    The mother is a very abusive women personality wise. I’ve seen her screaming at her daughter for over an hour over something trivial. The mother told me moths ago she hates all falangs.

    I’m my Thai girlfriends second relationship, the first (with a Thai guy) was broken up by the mother 2 years ago. She has no siblings or close relatives other than the mother.

    Thinking about the demands from the mother? I’m not sure her motives are just to have me pay her debt, then tell me to go FO If I find away to pay the money now….. Question: Is there a Thai marriage contract if I pay this amount? If she breaks the relationship after I pay then would she have to give the money back?

    I feel something is up? because on the one hand she says (the mother) marry now (in less than 1 month) and if I want to wait for about 8 months as I told her, and make installments then she said no. The mother, as I just mentioned, told me it was over at the end of the conversation because I could not meet her demands.

    Any advice or suggestions to help would be appreciated.

    Thanks!

    Reply

    • Honestly, walk away. Even if you successfully marry your GF your entire life will be ruined by your mother in law. Your MIL will manipulate her daughter for the remainder of her life, using the “respect and do everything your parents tell you” cultural card whenever she wants money. Your GF will never be happy unless she tells her to shove it and turns her back on her for good, which she most likely won’t. It’s a sad situation that I’ve seen so many times. Your GF will sacrifice her happiness, even in a marriage to you, to “make her mother happy”.

      Reply

    • Unfortunately you may have to bite the bullet and give your fiancee an ultimatum as situations like this are unlikely to go away. Sadly many Thai people see ‘foreigners’ as all having won the lottery. I suspect the mother will give you a non stop hard time and unless her daughter is prepared to choose you over outmoded tradition you may find yourself being milked for cash on and on.

      Reply

  17. My fiancee is 34 Thai woman. She has 2 daughters. She spoke with parents about Sin Sod. They told 999999 baht in cash and 65000 baht in gold. And she said No. 9 it is a sacred number.
    I know that’s to much but I don’t want her family will lost face.
    I thinking to say :
    On grounds of tradition I shouldn’t be paying at all because you has been married before and you has kids. However, to show my respect, I offer 100,000 – 200,000 baht

    Reply

  18. Hi I have a Thai friend lately I have been asking her about sin sod and how much I would need to pay just incase it ever come to marriage. Just want to want to know what I would be getting my self into. She is 38 years old and has 2 sons, she is from sangkha by surin. She said that the cost off sinsod should be 500,000 Thai baht if think that is well to much after reading all your information. She is not high school educated iver. Can anyone tell me what I should pay or even if I should at all but would want to fall out with her family ??

    Reply

    • If you want to marry her then at least you know where you stand. I’d just consider what you could afford to pay without rocking your financial boat, so to speak, and say you wouldn’t pay more than that. Factor it into the wedding cost. If you had a cheap wedding then it might not impact much if you pay 100-200k.

      Reply

        • 2 sons could be a lot to take on, but we don’t know the situation so let’s not judge. What is wrong with 38? She is still a young woman. I’m 38 and my wife is 37. There is only 6 months between us and we still act like we’re 20-somethings 🙂

          Reply

          • Two sons to take on, the Family as well. In reality, no Sin Sod should be paid at all apart from the marriage.

            500K is just in my views, treating you like a buffalo. Maybe just a ring and half a baht of gold for a necklace. I am not trying to be harsh here, but you are the one in control. If she did not fit into your ideas now, I would be very cautious. I do hope that it works out, but that 500K to me is an enormous’ red flag’.

            If she was only 28, no children, no marriage to another Thai guy/boyfriend, was educated, I can say yes, 500K upwards can be paid. In my village, no Thai man would touch her, and if he did, no Sin Sod would get paid, and in most cases, her family would be euphoric he took her off their hands.

            Just think carefully. If she does not agree now, later on in married life, and Thai married life is very different, you are going to have issues.

            500K is too much

            Reply

            • Hi Long Term Thai Guy,

              If a thai lady is 26 and has a daughter 8 years old from Mae Sot.
              Will any thai guy wants her ? Village or city.

              I live in Thailand for 1 year max. I am still learning about thai culure alhough I have an ex thai girl 3 years. They always confuse me because of smile and keeping it to themselves. Sorry I dont mean to offend you.

              Reply

              • Would it make a difference if nowhere else wants to marry her? You see beyond the fact that she had a child at a young age and that she is not rich, right? You see her for the person she is, not the status she has, right?

                Reply

  19. I am always amazed that the presumption is a western man should or has to adopt thai culture. Not so, if the thai lady wants thai culture to be respected she should engage with a Thai man (and accept the issues that may go with it). If they want to be with a western man, for what ever reason, there should be mutual respect and acceptance. The matter of the brides family paying for the wedding is naturally at the top of ones list.

    I have no problem with thai culture, but it is not my culture. There needs to be a clearing of the air, so to speak, on these matters and a frank exchange of the fact and reality.

    If the lasy wants Sin Sod, she needs a thai man. If she wants a western man she (and more importantly her family who will always try to manipulate and influence her) needs to show respect for western culture.

    Fairs fair.

    Reply

    • I’ve never presumed that, though the presumption I usually hear is the other way around. Most foreign men getting into relationships with Thai women rush in without considering the cultural implications of what will be around the corner. You are right: there should be a clearing of the air early on, so both sides know where they stand. It really isn’t that difficult to meet half way and have a wedding that encompasses both.

      Reply

    • Ian… you have a veery good point!
      Chosing and living with a Thai lady doesn’t mean you have to forget all about where you yourself come from. And she also has to respect your culture.
      Like you say “it is not my culture”… there is nothing wrong saying that and asking (claiming) your own culture also, equally.

      I am in the same position.
      thank you for your view.
      It helps me to hold on to the same ideas.

      Reply

      • Absolutely, but this is a given. In my experience the wives/gfs of foreign nationals are very accepting of their partner’s culture. My wife even did a bit of Morris Dancing at the fair in a town in the UK 🙂

        Reply

  20. Hello,

    I am a 28 year old foreign young man and been dating a 20 year old ladyboy for almost 2 years now, which lives in Phuket.
    Please, note that I don’t live in Thailand, but stayed there multiple times with her (half expat, you know, staying until my visa runs out and such).

    Anyhow, I am considering marrying her, therefore i have been looking at how to marry her (making it legal/recognised in both our countries).

    Can I marry a ladyboy? it is recognised where I live in Europe, but what about Thailand
    Do you know if i have to pay a Sin Sod to her family?

    I’m also lost when it comes to expat’ing(?) to Thailand to live with her, because I’ve been reading some conflicting things hehe
    I am Web Developper and own my own (small) web agency, would it qualify to (find) work in thailand or thai clients? what about visa wise?

    Thanks in advance

    Sebie

    Reply

    • Hi Sebie, I’m sorry to say that Thai law does not recognize same-sex marriages, civil unions or domestic partnerships. You would not be able to legally marry your partner in Thailand. You could have a traditional blessing, but marriage is not permitted by law. An alternative would be to marry in your home country, but this would still not be recognised in Thailand. In answer to your visa query, please see my visa post here: https://www.thethailandlife.com/thai-visa-requirements

      Reply

  21. Need opinions..my gf me hints me recently of wanting ring. I know she likes pure gold ring..my thoughts are if it’s to propose should it be gold diamond ring? Or wedding band? Also.. My girlfriend has 2 kids from earlier relationship (no official marriage)..what is rightfully her family can expect from me. Part of money I’m giving her monthly goes to her mom for her expenses.

    Reply

    • I would suggest asking her what kind of ring she likes. The majority of rural-based Thais I have met aren’t fussed about diamonds and prefer straight 22 ct gold, but the younger generation in the city tend to be more in tune with global trends and the “diamond bling” culture. Do consider that engagement rings aren’t commonplace among Thais. Engagement gifts, yes, but not necessarily rings; this is generally a western tradition. You should read this post on marriage and engagement: https://www.thethailandlife.com/thai-wedding-ceremony .

      In terms of what her family should expect from you: They should rightfully expect a husband who will treat their daughter with respect and do his best to take care his family. This doesn’t mean your wife’s extended family. It means you, your wife, your children and, if you decide to take them on, her children from previous relationship(s).

      Reply

      • Sometimes it’s hard even for her, the mother shows face everytime she gives any less than 10k..that’s alot for an old lady who has nothing to pay for. My gf tries to save money whenever possible for future, but I don’t understand why does Thais loves to drink 2 3 time a week.. I find the circle of her friends though good, doesn’t help her cause much.

        Reply

        • With her having children, just a wedding ring and a Marriage at Amphur if you want to make it official. If you wanted a small party, you could invite friends and have a meal out somewhere nice.

          No need to pay the parents. One of my good friends married only three months ago a 28-year-old Thai with one child, and this is what he did. She got upset a little but he explained to her he will be looking after her son and did she see the prices for a good education at an International School for her son when he needs to go to school?

          That ended the problem very quick.

          My wife gives her Mum 4K a month, but the Mother works as well. Most uneducated Thais working markets or at a soup shop earn 9,500 a month. Your Mother-in-law is earning a workings person wage and should not be getting “Facey” over that.

          Best of Luck!

          Reply

  22. As I have understood after reading ThaiWomanTalks blog, the (traditional) purpose of SinSot is to compensate to brides parents their loose of supporter. As, after being married, she will live in her husband home and will support his parents instead.
    When thai girl marry farang and build home next to her parents home, obviously no (traditional) need for any SinSot.

    Reply

    • There are actually a few traditional dynamics to sin sod which are generally agreed on. The first being a payment for the “mother’s milk”, so to speak. Historically it was said that parents had put a lot of money and effort into raising a good daughter and that the sin sot was a compensation for this. In old times with no pension or government support (or which many still don’t have) the sin sod would be a much needed pension pot or financial aid to rebuild the home or other.

      Another dynamic is the consideration that the daughter may get married, have kids and then the husband leaves her. She will then return home with her children and become a financial burden on her parents. In this instance the sin sod would be an insurance of sorts.

      Of course, we must not forget the dynamic of the societal hierarchy upon which Thailand is built: Rich or poor, the sin sod is a reflection of the family status, the daughter’s character, her level of education and the other things I discuss in my post. As we know, sin sod has evolved to become a somewhat showy affair among folk with a lot of money, and in many cases it is a redundant tradition. But 99.9% of Thai weddings have a sin sod. It is deeply rooted in Thai culture. So whether your in-laws are super rich and are just showing off to guests and will return the money, or they are really poor and need the money to refurbish their house or put in the bank for old age, trust me, if you marry a Thai woman, you will more than likely have to deal with the issue of sin sod.

      When ThaiWomanTalks says “supporter”, is she referring to financial or domestic support? I ask because the second part of your statement regarding the wife then going on to support her husband’s parents sounds like domestic support.

      In the modern day, there are many young, single working women sending money home to their parents each month. When they get married and have kids, this may stop, unless they decide to return to work after having kids. So in some instances the parents would look to keep the sin sod money to compensate for this eventuality.

      The mistake a lot of foreigners make is that they just keep paying over and over again. They give their GF a monthly salary, they send their GFs parents money, they “lend” money to family members, they support their GF’s children from previous relationships, they build the parents a house, they then marry and pay sin sod…and the bill just never ends.

      The reality is that sin sod is no big deal. Just draw a line in the sand from the outset of your relationship and stick to it. Don’t be a walking ATM. And if a woman doesn’t want to be with you because you won’t keep coughing up the cash, give her up, as she’s a bad habit.

      Reply

  23. I’m a Thai woman, no kids and never married.i have a good education. I know my mom are expecting a lot of sinsord from my boyfriend,but I never want that and I even hate this kind of things, but then my mom always angry when I said something like I wanna spend our money travel the world together etc.. 🙁 I don’t know how to talk to her, we didn’t have plan to get marry yet.
    But this is bothering me a lot. And she seems don’t understand me at all, but I don’t wanna lose relationship because of this, what should I do or say? She always give me tons of pressure about this. Always said” you should have a big wedding in Thailand so I will invite that gossipy friends to your wedding so they can spread words about how rich your bf are 🙁 ” you should marry him soon” you should ask him a lot of money ”
    I hate this so much and everytime I heard this stuff I’m so mad and angry.

    Reply

    • You should think about it is YOUR life. You will live with your husband not with your mom. We live in the 21st century , you don’t need to show ANYTHING to ANYBODY, especially to some gossipy friends. The couple life is played in 2, it’s not a team play. And don’t worry about your mom, if she loves you she will respect your decision, maybe in time and not immediately but she will. Good luck 🙂

      Reply

    • Each generation, in every culture, develops the culture from the previous generation. sometimes in a good way, sometimes, as we can see in the west now, in a bad way.

      As you age, your relationship with your parents changes, and ultimately the caring roles reverse. If you and your fiance are confident about your position, beleive in yourselves, and politely, gently but firmly refuse.

      Time fixes even broken hearts, so I’m confident it would fix your mother’s bad feeling at ‘loss of face’, or loss of opportunity to profit from your fiance.

      Reply

  24. my Thai gf is 28 single and am 38 single. She works in an cosmetics shop in bkk. We are looking at 1M Bhat for sinsod which she claims will apparently will be returned back to us. Only a portion will be for their parents, lets says around 10% and 20% for her. Its too touchy to discuss money matters but hope 70% is returned back. Wishful thinking. Cheers. pat.

    Reply

    • Just read this. Why is it too touchy to discuss, after all, she is to be your wife?

      Also, why does 20% go to her? The money is to go to her family, not her?

      Maybe the ThailandLife can educate me on this fact? I

      am of the understanding the money is for the family, not for the girl apart from perhaps a gift of gold? I asked my wife, and she said yes, gold goes like this.

      1) Wedding Ring and maybe some gold to the wife

      2) A small amount of gold to the mother/father maybe like a ring or a necklace.

      Have not heard of the bride getting a cash percentage of the Sin Sod before? Perhaps it is done, but I have not seen it to date in any weddings I have been too. In fact, my wife says we are invited to a Wedding almost every second or third weekend, but she does not tell me and us now only go to those that are important (like family and super close friends).

      Also what type of Education has your wife got? A million Baht is not chump change.

      All the best with the coming wedding. Hope you are both very happy.

      Reply

  25. For the ceremony, all you need to bring in a ring ceremony and a quantity of cash. While you can put it. I was not expecting that amount over the tray. Just follow the tradition Thailand

    this is what my fiancee told me she said whatever ammount is within my abilities.

    any suggestions?

    Reply

  27. Married a year ago. No Sin Sod or no marriage ceremony. Just went to Ampur.

    My wife is 32 and accountant. I am 46. My wife has an excellent education and job.

    She went and saw here parents and told them she was a modern girl and that she was marrying me because she wanted to be with me. She said Sin Sod was outdated and even though she came from a Northern family and her Mum, who is half Chinese wanted Sin Sod, she told them she has given her family enough.

    She built them a house before we met and they earn about 12,000 a month selling at a market, and for them, that is more than enough money to live off. Her Grandparents who are now dead were wealthy and put her through University. After the Grandparents death, the father wasted all the money on girls, drink and gambling. Typical Thai story.

    When I hear you guys talking from 500K onwards to pay for Sin Sod and NOT get it back, your are getting took for a ride.

    Lord, I am reading some of you guys are paying Sin Sod for a previously married girl with children! The parents, in this case, are laughing all the way to the bank with your hard earned cash with a previous Sin Sod from a Thai husband.

    You are going to be bringing up someone else’s offspring, and for any Thai family, that should be enough!

    Some of the ‘wages’ you guys are paying the parents after marriage is laughable. Do you all understand that most Thai guys would not come anywhere near the money you are throwing away? Most average Thai guys cannot even make half of what you’re giving a month.

    After reading so many of these comments now, I can understand why so many older Thai women with children want to find a farang as you are all easy marks.

    Reply

    • A fair assessment, I’d say. But one thing you haven’t touched on is that when a rich guy marries a Thai woman, he will always display his wealth by paying a sizable sin sod, and prior to that usually splashing out on a big engagement present. He will also buy gifts for her family.

      Now, it is true that a rich Thai guy will usually marry into a family on a par with his wealth, but sometimes, for a nouveau riche guy who became wealthy of his own accord, or is from a family that was once poor and made their money fairly recently, he may marry a woman from a poor family; he may simply choose to do so.

      Perhaps she is the daughter of a long-time family friend, or childhood sweetheart, or just someone he met and fell in love with. It happens. Even though she is poor and perhaps uneducated, he is still likely to show off his wealth with a huge sin sod.

      My point here is that if a woman, rich or poor, marries a man that others perceive as wealthy, they will expect him to display that wealth in marriage. This is cultural.

      So when a woman marries a foreigner, it is automatically assumed he is wealthy, or at least so by average Thai standards. Of course we know this isn’t the case and foreigners come in all shapes and sizes, literally too. But the mentality of the poorer Thai families with little knowledge of the world outside of Thailand perceive this to be the case, and as such expect that all foreigners are wealthy and therefore it’s pay day when sin sod comes about.

      Foreign guys are falling into a trap of competing, unwittingly. If I had a dollar for every time I have heard stories like “so and so’s daughter from (insert moo baan name here) married a foreigner and he paid xxx xxx and built a huge house etc”. To most, to marry a foreigner who is poor would be considered pointless. I mean, why not just marry a Thai, right? For most outside of the relationship, love is not a consideration. People are viewing the relationships of others in terms of financial gain.

      Also consider that culturally no woman wants a small sin sod, because as I discuss in my post, this directly reflects on her social status, her education level, her family name. So to marry a wealthy guy (perceived), who is also a foreigner, and get a small sin sod, is a huge loss of face.

      Reply

      • Thanks for an excellent reply.

        I have been in Thailand for some time. I have seen massive Sin Sods paid out but to date, never by a Thai guy in my local area. Yes, in the news we might see when a superstar pays out, or someone of the high-so area within the local area pays out, but they are in general, in a league of their own. In all honesty, I see most foreigners dragged into this, and they pay way too much especially if the girl is from Issan or the far North. Yes, this is all about face, but my wife brought something up to me that made me think about this in a different light.

        My wife said she got called out by all her ‘village’ friends (not her educated friends) and neighbours for not having a massive party, showing an enormous Sin Sod, and the rumours were nasty. She told me outright, Thais love to gossip badly about each other and that it comes down to jealousy. She said it is within the Thai nature to show this gossip and nastiness as in general terms they have nothing better to do. Village life is boring, and gossip and bringing others down is just part of the face game, and she told me outright, she does not play that game.

        For myself, I do not give a damn, and neither does my wife. She says they are not paying her bills, they are not looking after her family, and she told me she broke her mother’s heart not by having a big wedding, but she is not like other girls, and for her whole life, she hated this whole idea of ‘Thai Face’.

        Like you can see, she is independent (sometimes also not to my benefit but I would not have it any other way).

        Maybe the younger, more educated girls are changing. Who know but the reality is that older foreign guys coming in paying large Sin Sods for uneducated Issan or Northern farm girls with children are a joke all for the fact of saving face. In fact, when this does happen, my wife then says the shoe is on the other foot, and the locals say what an idiot the guy is for paying out such large money on ‘used goods’. Yes, it can be nasty!

        It is pretty simple in my books; yes pay if you want too but don’t be a fool as I have seen marriages last only a few weeks to months. Yes, sure the parents have a lot of say here, but if you are going to splash bundles of cash at them because they said so, you’re already out of your league. It does not have to be the poor ‘wealthy farang’ that gets done over. Most the guys that I do know marrying in my circle of friends are economic refugees after being cleaned out on a European marriage first.

        So, it is up to you in so many ways. My case may have been different as I do have an independent wife with modern ways and I can assure you after mixing with her friends and batch mates from Unversity, things are changing in many respects.

        A great Australian friend of mine married a lawyer in a large firm, and he told me Sin Sod was only brought up for about two minutes from the family. They did not want it, and this is a lady the earns six figure sums a month.

        So, it is just different to and for everyone.

        Sure, it still maybe not work like this out in remote villages but with the massive numbers of well-educated young women here and if you’re a half decent non-sexpat kind of guy, you have a vast array of choice for decent women. Not just some up-country poor village girl or local bar trash with a tribe of kids.

        I hope that helps and you have a great blog.

        Reply

        • I have to agree with Long Term Thai Guy 100%. This notion that Sin Sod is paying money to a Thai bride’s family is absurd. Even the lower income Thai families whose daughters marry Thai men often contribute to the Sin Sod amount together. The parents then return the Sin Sod to the couple. Any foreigner being asked to pay for their Thai bride is being fleeced. Simple as that. You can display the cash with the requirement that it’s returned, but if you’re expected or demanded to pay for it, she doesn’t respect you, and neither does her family.

          At the same time, if foreign men paying for sex with a prostitute is deemed a form of exploitation, then so is paying her family Sin Sod for the honor of marrying their daughter.

          I was never asked to pay Sin Sod. My wife is from a middle class family in the rural north. They have never asked me to pay for anything or to finance their materialistic desires (and they seem to not have any).

          Please men…there is absolutely no need to pay for a bride. Doing so doesn’t earn you respect among Thais, doesn’t win you points with the family, and if anything, sets up the relationship for failure. Look at the number of foreign men who have doled out cash for their brides and their families, only for the relationship to fail.

          If the the relationship rests on the need to provide money in any form to her and her family, then it is a transactional relationship. The day you no longer provide is the day the walls holding the relationship together begin to crumble, and often is the case the relationship never had a solid foundation to begin with.

          Sin Sod is a thing of the past, from days gone by when women did not have the freedom to work and earn a living independently of a man providing for her.

          Reply

    • Good on you and your missus. There is no way to justify any sin sod payment for any reason. If the woman is genuine and she wants to be with a man then it won’t really matter. They know their family will get some type of help or financial advantage long term anyway and don’t need a down payment. My advice to anyone, regardless of Thai culture is not to pay anything. There are plenty of girls in Thailand, Philippines, Vietnam etc…….. getting married is not about money. if a guy marries a woman with children then he will pay anyway. My view may seem harsh to some but I am a realist plain and simple. It’s your future and money doesn’t grow on trees. If you have money and want to live in Thailand go for it… if you struggle and are only just well off enough I would say forget it and find a woman who just wants you and not just your money.

      Reply

      • Hi Adam, I have a girlfriend mother wants 1 million baht for marriage my girlfriend loves me and also her neighbor talk with me and said that this is the price foreigners are paying well I thought what her was saying is true and her family is very poor and is in a rural area and really need of this money so I agreed to pay it but I see that information I received is not correct and some foreigners pay nothing
        I’m a 45 years old man her is 25 years old virgin and they are assisting on 1 million baht, her also has a loan with her university and her pay Thai government 10,000 baht a year and I think loan is 170,000 baht so another 17 years to pay debt off we want to marry but I feel I’m not getting the best deal here so what are my options is too pay and in return her give me my a child which I want so much or break up relationship with her over money

        Reply

        • If you pay that amount they will blow it so easily…. The poorer the people the quicker money runs through their fingers. Tell them you don’t have the money and that you could help them in the long run bit by bit etc which you will anyway on top if the sin sod. Don’t be too nice or think you are doing the right thing. If she is genuine she will understand and stay with you. if it’s just a grab for money you will find out quite quickly.

          Reply

          • I agree with Adam above; a million baht for a up-country low-income family is something that they would never get from a Thai man.

            Last year I went to around four weddings, all Thai. Maximum Sin Sod paid was 30,000 to 50,000 baht and 1 baht of gold.

            In all cases, the money was given back.

            Now, on the other hand, I was invited to two foreign weddings, and in one instance, 200,000 given and two baht of gold. The parents gave the money back to them but kept the gold to wear as a gift.

            The other case, 400,000 was received and the money not given back. The family was near destitute and the money spent on a new Isuzu truck.

            The funny part is now the guy is paying now for the parent’s payments for the car (and lord know how they ever got approved for a loan in the first place); the yearly car insurance and also the fuel. So just be aware. My friend was not very happy about this deal, and it has caused discontent he has told me as he does not have an endless supply of cash on hand.

            All things are not cut and clean. A British guy I know was asked to buy a new Hino Truck for Sin Sod, and that was in the millions. The family was super poor (living up near the Golden Triangle). He refused to pay; she told him to pack his bags and go. The girl in question now is working in a local farang bar at her parent’s insistence looking for someone.

            Still, you can have happy endings as well; a Thai work colleague of mine who does have serious money married a young Canadian guy who did not have a cent.

            She stumped up at the wedding 800,000 in ‘show’ money and tried to give the money to her parents. They of cause declined, but it was once again all for a show of face. No one knew that he did not have the money and I gather great face would have been gained in this instance.

            So not matter what, this is all a gamble, so think carefully about what you are going to do. Also just wanting a child from a young woman whom has just finished Universtiy and wanting maybe to move into a career just because you desperately want a child may not be a good idea.

            Think about it all carefully.

            Good luck!

            Reply

  28. Hi i am an india girl , i got a marrige purposal from rich thai boy and he is been asking me how much sin sod my mom wants as my mom is singel parents who raised me, so plz help me with this how much u think we should ask for ?

    Reply

  29. hello. I have been dating a Thai woman for the past 18 months and plan on bringing her to the US on a marriage visa. Over the 18 months I only sent her money three times and it was small ammounts for english school and attorney fees. My GF owns her own Salon in Isan and her parents are poor rice farmers. My GF is divorced from a Thai man is 38yrs old and has 2 kids that her in-laws take care of. she doesnt have custody of the children and they will not be coming to the USA. I have met her family in her village and they are good people. we are going to have an engagement party on my next visit in April. I did not even know about this sin sod and I have been to Thailand 8 times . LOL. anyhow I am not really prepared for it any suggestions? The last time I stayed at the parents house i gave dad a bottle of whiskey and 1000baht. She hasnt mentioned sin sod to me and i dont know what to do. I am not rich either so help please

    Reply

    • If she hasn’t mentioned it, I wouldn’t either 🙂 Not all women want sin sod or agree with it in the modern day. I have a good friend who married a Canadian guy and she did not want sin sod or a traditional Thai wedding.

      Reply

  31. ok i read everything and it’s very interesting
    My problem is like this !
    I’m going to hopefully marry a 38 old woman
    she has been married 2 times before and have 2 kids with these guys
    She is not well educated and not have a fancy work but she’s name is well respected in the city and her mum is very traditional
    I think they more traditional than the normal Thai because mum from Thailand and father from China and in her first marriage the parents decided witch man she should marriage
    So old tradition is nr 1
    so far everything OK
    But her mum wants about 500000 bath in sinsod and I think it’s to much I rather want to spend the money on a house together with my wife
    And when I think about it she’s 38 Benn married 2 times and have 2 kids I definetily think it to much
    What’s your opinion about it ?

    Reply

    • There’s a lot of variables to sin sod these days and it mostly comes down to the individuals, but from a traditional standpoint if she was marrying Thai it would be 50-70k, depending. If she met a rich man it would be more, or a poor man maybe nothing, since she has been married twice and has kids and is from a poor family etc. But hey, you love her, you want to respect her, respect her mum, meet in the middle when it comes to marriage tradition, etc. So go between 100-200k, not more. 500k is silly money.

      Reply

    • I would not pay sin sod in this case (I never would in any case) but if you really wanted to you could let them know that you really would like to spend that money on a house. That makes more sense than just giving them money to literally waste. Personally I would not get involved in this. It’s not the children’s fault but I would not marry a woman with kids if you are thinking of starting your own family. It may also depend on the children’s ages. If they are older it may be ok especially for older guys who already had their own kids previously.
      This may not seem fair to the lady but she is second, second hand goods so to speak and sounds like she will be a burden on your wallet, but then again may not be so bad. My experience with what I have learnt about Thai women is that most care first about their own family and money.

      Reply

    • I would not pay in this case either. Seriously, in Asian eyes she is damaged goods and to pretend otherwise is exploiting your naïveté. As I said to another guy in a similar situation – what does this tell you about the family you’re about to join – that they’d do this to you at the beginning.

      Pull out and find someone better, or test her and say if she loves you, just marry, no money involved, then you’ll see the true colours.

      I’m applying this to myself, and I WILL wait until I find a girl/family who are not looking for a human ATM. And I’m a generous guy, don’t get me wrong.

      Reply

  32. Hello I get married In April. We are having a abeach wedding first on an island. And then a blessing in the village.
    Her parents said not to worry about money. And are happy to have 1baht gold each. Which works out to be about £800. So I think it’s a good deal I got.
    I will be show boasting the gold with money at the wedding, to make it look better though.

    Regards
    Paul.

    Reply

  35. Hi guys. Im a thai women. Can I tell u something about my opinion. It,s right what you say about sinsod. It,s all about the family face and good daughter have to make it happens. But warning when they got big face then they might can not stop it and maybe make problem in the future. But dont give up If girl love you enught for not care about it she will find her own way. Good luck all of you.

    Reply

  36. I got married when I was 21 in ’98 and I paid no sin sod. My wife and I just went to the Banglamung registry and paid B1000 and signed a piece of paper etc… Done. It would depend on the woman’s situation. My wife is from the North not isaan and very independent. She only has her father who is over 80 and not well, and once he is gone she says that will be it for Thailand. She has no interest in living there and all that nonsense.

    We didn’t even have a marriage ceremony in her village near Chiang Muan which gets visited only infrequently. She did tell me that if her mother had been alive there would have been problems with how we did it. We do help out her sister and have sunk considerable funds into their schemes and they have to repay debt now. It will take them a long time. So apart from that I was never shackled to the concept of sin sod.

    Now, I know of quite a few others that really got screwed over and still are even though their wives parents are fairly well off with businesses and farm land and other daughters married to richer fellas. I think a lot of the time their greed goes way beyond the basic concept of sin sod etc. They will ask for more and more and waste more and more as they have no concept or grasp of saving for the future and building wealth other than buying gold. Unless they are of Chinese extraction, then it may well be a different story and a different type of greed. The wives of these foreigners do not grasp the concept that you need to look after yourself if living in a western country and the more money flows out of your bank account the worse off you will be in the future. There is no thought of the future consequence of the actions taken in the past and present which really worry me.

    I would not pay any sin sod if for some reason I wanted to marry a Thai woman again let alone one with children. The long term drain on the purse would be too much let alone the sin sod payment. I’m glad my wife understands that living in a western country we need to prepare ourselves for our looming retirement and older years as no one will look after us and I don’t expect or want my children to sacrifice their lives and future having to spend their hard earned on us. This concept is still very foreign to older Thais.

    Reply

    • “We need to prepare ourselves for our looming retirement and older years as no one will look after us and I don’t expect or want my children to sacrifice their lives and future having to spend their hard earned on us. This concept is still very foreign to older Thais”

      This is a good point. The concept that children are not responsible for their parents financial wellbeing is quite alien in some sectors of Thai society. For many, from the time they are old enough to work, there is a huge pressure on them to not just support their parents, but improve their financial status. In some cases, the more a child earns the more is taken, and often wasted. Generally, in the West, the opposite is true. To ask our children for money would be the absolute last resort, and never would we see them as a means to a better financial status.

      It should be noted that this is by no means exclusive to Thailand. A parallel culture exists in so many second and third world countries.

      Reply

      • This is how it was in Europe as well in the not too distant past. I understand how it works and the reasoning behind it but in places like Thailand it is slowly fading as young people start making their own way in life away from their extended family.

        Reply

  37. Hello people, I was looking for long time for the meaning of sin sod. For people who want to know the truth, here are some rectifications :
    Number 1 – ” As you might know, it is common for the average Thai woman to send a portion of her salary to her parents each month.After marriage this usually stops ” – this is not exactly like that. The parents supported by their daughter before she marry will be supported with money even after she got married and it is expected that the husband will be the one who open his pocket to do this, as well to do this for other relatives of the bride’s family.
    Number 2 – “The bottom line is, women don’t walk away with half of everything like they do in some Western countries.” – Yes, you are right ! By Thai law, they walk away with 51% of everything in case of divorce.

    Good luck to everybody !

    Reply

  38. I’m potentially in this situation now. She’s young, been married, got a baby and a toddler. And has just mentioned Sin Sod. I would be OK with paying a standard amount if she were an unmarried virgin – after all it’s either a tradition or not, and if it is, then she has to play her proper role too, or we can go western totally, and no Sin Sod. Furthermore, her parents still have the money form the first husband.

    So I won’t be paying this, I figure I’m doing enough by taking on her and her kids – they get financial security from me so I’m not about to harm my ability to provide that financial security by donating a hefty sum to a third party.

    What I will do though is provide my wife with a household allowance, and if she wishes, she can send part of that every month to her parents. How much she sends therefore, and the effect that has on our own standard of living will be in her hands.

    To avoid any loss of face, I’ll propose we don’t have a ceremony other than a meal in a nice restaurant.

    Any thoughts?

    Reply

  39. Hmmm all very interesting first thing thankyou very much for your work i am happy to have a place to talk about my situation . I have talked with my fiances family regarding sin sod father a farmer living in a village in a house with mother while oldest daughter and her husband work the family farm dad makes a few brooms and such mother cares for some grand children but not full time second daughters husband works the farm she works in a shop and helps at times on farm third daughter my fiance lives 1 hour away in a northeast city is university educated has her own house ( mortgage not much left to own it ) has a good job around 20 k month and a 5 year old daughter married and divorced obviously . Father suggested a salary of 10 k amonth for him and same for mother totaling around 250 k a year 4 years 1 million 8 years 2 million and so on i said jeez sweetheart thats around 20 percent of my earnings i am just a working class man but when you come to my country you can work in your field i have connections to get you a good job and you will probably earn more than i do and then his suggestion is very dooable as 2 incomes will cover this easy in the mean time i should think that half a million on the table at the wedding should see the spectators saying not bad she is divorced 35 and has a kid half of that returned after wedding other half they can keep before relocating i think 5000 per month is reasnable considering the relocation and spouse visa costs i will incur along with finishing up her mortgage and university debts before leaving thailand around half a milliin baht . Okay thats it oh there is a 4 th daughter lives far away husband no help to family i intend to rebuild father and mothers house in about 2 years is dooable for me at around a million baht i think i am in the ballpark of more than reasnable allthough some aspects of future monies and assets for mother and father are only words now i still think i am around about right okay thoughts please and thankyou again

    Reply

    • Hi Frank,

      The first thing I’d say is that it is not your responsibility to pay them a salary, and this shouldn’t come in to negotiations about sin sod. I’m not sure where this idea comes from, but most certainly this is not part of the culture. In fact, one theory behind the giving of sin sod is that the parents will no longer have the security of their daughter sending them money from her salary each month because she will be married with her own family to take care of. If, as you have suggested, your wife wants to get a job once you are married, it is up to her if she wants to send money home.

      Moreover, they don’t need 10k each a month to live in the sticks. 10k between them would be enough, and don’t forget that the other children have a responsibility to contribute too, not just you.

      Plus you are planning to build them a home. I would say that the half of the sin sod you plan to gift them should contribute to that purpose, otherwise what will it be used for? I would recommend improving the existing house infrastructure rather than building a new one, and honestly, 1M Baht doesn’t get you much these days once all costs are factored in, particularly furnishings.

      In addition you are talking about paying her university debts, and then there are the visa fees.

      I think you have to ask yourself at what point does this stop being a relationship and become a financial agreement. You are picking up all these expenses and debts and setting yourself a precedent going forward. If these are the costs that are being heaped on you now, imagine how bad it is going to get further down the line.

      Reply

      • As usual a very wise and considered reply Peter. I’d just like to second that. I think a good question to ask yourself Frank, and it’s not a pleasant question, but what if things don’t work out, maybe for normal reasons, or maybe because you’d been used. How will you feel and also how will it leave you financially?

        Seriously, cut right back on those numbers, at a minimum in the manner Peter has suggested. The fact that they’re willing to take that much from you would make me doubtful about joining that family. There are loads of women out there on the sites, don’t undervalue yourself.

        As you can see in my post, I’m in a similar situation. But I’m playing it cautiously and have a few other woman I’m talking with. Their behaviour therefore can be compared, and by a process of elimination I’ll hope fully make the best choice. I have no qualms about doing it this way as it’s a huge decision, and hopefully I only have to do it once. They’re probably doing the same anyway.

        Hope this helps.

        Reply

        • That’s a good point. Don’t put in more than you can afford to lose, at least at in the early stages. Once the money for the wedding, the sin sod, the house, the visa costs is gone it’s gone.

          And if you are paying money to her parents each month that will cut into the amount you are able to save personally. Until your wife finds work, you will also be paying for two.

          Of course, relationships cost money; the West is no different. Man, if I could get all the money back I’ve spent on relationships over the years I’d be sitting pretty!

          But Thailand is supposed to a cost-effective move, not one than ends up crippling you financially. Sadly though, i hear from a fair few guys each year who have put their savings into a marriage, house, lending money to their partner’s family etc, only to be dumped and leave with nothing. Many have retired and don’t have the option of going back to work.

          I’m not making any judgment on your GF, or anyone else’s. There are good and ill-intentioned people in all countries, but just exercise caution to protect your future happiness and finances.

          Reply

  40. My nephew wants to marry a Thai girl and the family is demanding 50K dollars for sin sod. Granted she is college educated, but by what you describe, the amount is too high. I assume the girl wants the wedding to take place in Thailand, but I don’t believe her family is this wealthy to ask my nephew for this top dollar amount. Any thoughts? I believe this excess of money can be considered an insult since he traveled there to get to know the family, didn’t know the traditions, and the Thai family didn’t even ask to meet the groom’s parents. What next? My sister is divorced, and this amount asked of her son is both surprising, and wards of a warning bell. Any thoughts?

    Reply

    • Are they asking for the money to keep or to show? At the current exchange rate 50k is around 1.5 MB, which is not unheard of these days. 1MB to show is quite common. I have a friend from an average family, a graduate with a successful small business, her family would not accept less than 1MB, though it would be shown and not kept. Her uneducated younger sister married with a 200k sin sod that was given back to her and her husband to build a home. It’s a lot of money though and too much in my opinion. But if they are a wealthy family, with a good name, a highly educated daughter …yadayadayada then this may be their standard and they won’t accept less, primarily because they don’t want their daughter marrying someone who couldn’t afford that. At the end of the day it is all about face, to their friends and the community. Sad but true. If they are wealthy they won’t expect to keep it anyway. It would just be for show.

      Reply

  41. Sin Sod is parents trying to turn a profit on their daughter. That is exactly what it is so they should just say it and see if there are any takers. This bs about “oh you give me money for my daughter but how dare you call it exactly what it is” is pathetic.

    Reply

  42. So my 32 year old son is close to 40K in marriage, immigration and sponsership, her daughter from a previous is almost over and the money keeps going out to thailand, out and out, including her (inherited?) thai land-transfer fees, with the intention to build a “holiday shack” there in the future. Every excuse is being used to extract the dollars over the last few years, I count at least a bakers dozen that i know about.
    I wonder if the daughter’s father has been in play for the last 8 years. The excuse they failed she gives is pretty thin.
    Or is this sin sod?
    For what I read here sin sod is a gentle and honourable monetary exchange of the giver and receiver’s overall loving and supportive intent to each other family’s. Sometimes it may also be the repayment to the girls parents for looking after a child while she was working in the rice fields, I get that.
    Ours doesn’t seem very honourable, it’s certainly not gentle.

    Reply

    • It sounds like a lot of money, but land is expensive. You do have to be careful buying land in Thailand > see this post here: https://www.thethailandlife.com/buying-land-thailand

      I can’t really judge the situation as I don’t know the situation, but I’ve had a fair few emails over the years from concerned relatives worried about someone in the family being taken advantage of for money, so it pays (no pun intended) to be vigilant.

      Reply

      • thanks for your reply TTL… that 40 doesn’t include land but does include his travel back and forth over the last few years. Plus he has nothing to show for his wages… it’s just a joke….
        Thailand and these bar-girls are despicable! There is so much harm in the Thai culture, it rips the hearts out of its women, it abandons its men and lets its children beg on the street!.
        Those of you reading this that are educated, wealthy by your own virtue, congratulations, now make a stand! Change your country for an overall better life of your citizenship, not just yourself!!

        Reply

  43. OK I really liked this article until you said:

    “Your girlfriend has probably already sacrificed many of her cultural traditions to accommodate you in her life. Living with you and sleeping with you before marriage are two of those sacrifices.”

    WHAT? I have lived in Thailand for 20 years and had 3 children and one step son go through the Thai education system. Are you really trying to say anything but the smallest percentage of girls are virgins when they marry here? Come on. Its 2016. The M3 kids are having sex.

    Reply

    • Indeed, of course it is rife. But when teenagers, particularly in rural areas are found to be sleeping together and it becomes common knowledge, they are often married off quickly (if old enough) to save face. Thus the huge amount of failed marriages and subsequent young women left with kids to fend for while the ex goes off and sows his seeds elsewhere — and the cycle continues. These things are still very taboo, regardless of how much sex is going on. I have Thai friends in Bangkok living with their girlfriends and their parents don’t know. If they find out they will be pushed into marriage. My best Thai friend (a female) tells her mum that when her and her BF go on holiday that she sleeps in a separate room.

      Reply

      • Agree parents are often kept in the dark but that wasn’t really the point. As one Thai friend (an attractive girl of 25 or so from Issan) told me, if you meet an 18 year old cute girl who says she is a virgin, she is almost certainly lying…

        Reply

  44. I think it’s all about culture diffirentiation in general. There are gold digger or bad person everywhere not only in Thailand and in both gender “man” & “women” it similar to the question…who came first? Chicken or egg?

    From what I read, the point of this article is about sharing his knowledge, experienced & point of views to others that might be useful/helpful.

    I think you have to individually consider your case as unique as it is, ask yourself what really happen here with you and your case? Do some own research, don’t have to be too negative or too positive about it, put yourself in the middle of the way, take time learning your partner, your factor, be fair to youselve and her/him, calculate all factors and you might get yourselve some suitable answer eventually. It’s time wasting discussion chicken & egg, it’s all individual and unique as I said. The point is, if you really learn other cultures, you might be surprise how far they can go.

    I am half Thai half Chinese, Im married with the love of my life, it’s my first marriage at 38 years old And now living with him abroad for so many years. Before that I’m well educated, good carrier, happy single. I consider myself lucky as I was borned in the family that never ask for anything but my happiness. 100% expenses spending for my trip to have vacation with him, study his language which is not English, visa, airplane & etc. are all from my own saving. My parents never ask for anything but our happiness together. No need for wedding party, only small celebration with family & close friends. To be honest & be real, there’re not so many people in the third world countries that this lucky, I’m no defensive with those who face bad experiences with Thais as I realize that in some case it is what it is, nothing to correct about.

    All I ask is, as the mirror also has 2 faces, be fair to yourself & consider both up & down sides. Please consider yourself & your case as unique as it is, use your head not only your heart (perhaps both at the same time), so that you can realize & evaluate your own situation so that after a period of time, you can make the right decision eventually. If you don’t want to be part of her/his family or their culture, please find your suitable partner in your own area that have similar culture, don’t waste your time & asset to married others who diffirent than yours without having real information or done some researchers. There’re a lot of decent people in those countries that do excist, please don’t let your bad experience with the wrong people cloud your judgment of all. There’re some foreigner killer that kill in Thailand too but we never call all foreigner “killer” so simple is that. If they aren’t good enough, don’t date one without any knowledge and came out crying “they rob me” as pity as it is, your own choice = your own fault.

    To those who didn’t step your feet into it yet, do your own research, take your time, “do not judge the book by its cover” be yourself & be real. To those who already into it, I have nothing to say but “good luck” guys.

    Reply

  45. My cousin met a divorced Thai female when he went on a working trip to Thailand.since then he has become obsessed with her and has spent thousands of £ on her, her house, travel, holidays etc. She came to the UK for 2weeks in December 2015. Since then she is pressurising him into making a commitment to her as she says it’s her culture not to have intimate relations with him unless they are married. She was coming yo the uk again for 4months at the end of 2016. She has demanded a sin sod. He has offered her 6k which is all he has left of his savings. Considering he is paying for her flights, hotels, upkeep of her house etc, she is saying that it’s not enough! Her parents are dead, she has a 8year old child who lives with her father and a sister who is married to a Swedish guy. My cousin ended the relationship but she wooed him back as I knew she would. Now we have heard that he is going to live in Thailand next year. This is causing immense upset within our family as her social media activities (she has several facebook profiles, is on dating sites etc, leave a lot to be desired. Her posts are very suggestive as if she’s touting for business. She posted a child pornographic video (FB removed it). Her posts are also geared to towards marriage, expensive gifts and holidays, which he buys her.
    I know it is his choice as an adult if 42yrs of age, but I have a nasty feeling that this is going to end badly off him. He has already distanced himself from longstanding friends in the UK when they voiced their concerns. Now he’s alienating his family.
    My concern/question is:is this ‘normal behaviour’ from Thai women or is she just a money grabbing person whose ultimate desire is to live permanently in the UK (she told me that herself).
    Any help, tips, advice would be most welcome. If I could stop him leaving the country, I would as this person is not what he thinks she is.
    Many thanks

    Reply

    • This is absolutely not the typical behavior of “Thai women”. Indeed all Thai women are individuals and the majority are morally grounded, genuine people.

      From experience, however, this doesn’t sound like a promising situation and I’d say she’s after the best deal she can get, so to speak. 6k for a sin sod for a woman with a child and I presume previously married, and from a working class family – not a middle or high class family (I presume) – is more than enough.

      Moreover, it is not for her to dictate the sin sod amount. This is to be decided between your cousin and her parents / your cousin’s parents and her parents. A woman cannot demand a sin sod. Her father or mother could, but not her.

      The picture you paint is typical of a woman seeking to secure a foreigner to fund dreams of grandeur. Often, uneducated (usually) women see other Thai women married to foreign men / Thai men who seemingly have great lives: driving their own car, wearing nice clothes, living in a decent house and taking care of their family.

      But the reality is often quite different, and Facebook doesn’t tell the whole story. Many are unhappy despite the money – because they are with a partner they don’t love, aren’t sexually attracted to and probably wouldn’t choose as a friend let alone a husband. Some are happy and with someone they love, but work every day in a demanding job, as most people in the world do. Others don’t have a pot to wee in but act like they are blessed with riches. It’s all about keeping up appearances.

      I presume this lady sees your cousin as a ticket to a better life, which isn’t unreasonable since most women want to marry a man who can provide adequately for his family and has the ambition to improve his financial position over time. But all too often in these situations, love/close friendship doesn’t come into the equation: Rak ghin mai dai – love cannot eat (in Thai). These relationships generally do end badly, with the foreign party feeling taking advantage of and hugely out of pocket.

      I would most certainly warn your cousin of the potential dangers. At the very least, he should date this woman for 2-3 years to allow the relationship to develop naturally and learn more about her background, family and intentions.

      Reply

    • Hi Dianna,
      This is not normal. These day I heard many cases like that. I still confirmed these information is true and I would say, there has good person and bad person anywhere in the world. It’s like a scram. I hope you won’t judge all Thais and hope your cousin will find the right girl one day.
      Sorry to hear that.

      Reply

    • I feel that your instinct is right. I am in my second marriage and what appeared to be a good new start is clearly not. I suspect he will be fleeced of everything he has and then she will stray to the next victim. Do your best to stop him making a mistake he will regret.

      Reply

  46. Thank you for your excellent explanation of sin sod. These are all very good reasons to never marry a Thai woman – even if you are a Thai man! You make a good point that Thai and American cultures are simply far too different for these marriages to be happy. You offer ample proof just how strange and dysfunctional Thai culture is – even for Thai’s. American culture is not so blatantly materialistic. So skip all this nonsense and marry a nice American or European girl! Whether she’s rich or poor, plain or pretty, educated or not, her culture is not so twisted she comes with some mysterious price tag that you’re supposed to guess the asking price for. Her family won’t lose face, and the neighbors won’t gossip and laugh if she marries rich or poor. She’ll likely work and provide half the family income. If you like the Asian girls, marry a Filipina. Filipino women are every bit as beautiful as Thai women. They all speak English and are far more likely to adapt to your culture than a Thai woman. A filipina may well expect that you sacrifice some of the family income to care for her poor or aged parents, but that can easily be agreed upon in advance and probably won’t be much more than a couple hundred dollars a month. She just wants to make sure that Nanay and Tatay have food, clothing, and shelter.

    Reply

    • If a woman loves you so much that you must pay for the pleasure of her companionship then she is not so much in love with you as you think she is.

      Many Thai women who venture into the world of marriage to a foreigner are indeed gold diggers or members of a gold digging family. They care little for you as is demonstrated in their need for payment. This is no well kept secret and even the Thais know it well.

      The world has 7 billion+ people. Thailand is just a scratch on the surface. It’s not as important as some Thais think it is … or as some of them may lead you to believe it is.

      If you are entering a relationship where you have the upper hand financially then it is for you to determine the rules of engagement you are willing to accept. Do you want to go from upper hand to lower hand by transferring your hard earned money due to an unshared belief?

      Pride, honour, respect, culture. Nonsense. It comes down to money. If they want your money all the rest doesn’t matter.

      Are you happy to spend it? If it disturbs you at all and your family to be seems uninterested in your feelings, you’ve got a problem. If not, then have fun spending!

      Be sure of this. Whether you spend it or not. She is free to leave you and not return anything you’ve given her.

      Sin sod is from days gone by when women did not have the prospect to earn a living. Today they do. Very much so. Even the women from hard up families have the freedom to work.

      If they feel insulted by your culture to refuse it, it’s their problem. Not yours. Please…don’t make it your problem. You’ll live to regret it.

      I assure you that easily enough she will find someone else to replace you if the money is such a big concern. I’ve seen it first hand several times.

      Last month my wife, who is Thai, visited me here in China where I’m working on a project. She flew in at her own expense. Didn’t ask me for a single coin. She simply bought a ticket, arranged her visa and came over to see me. I didn’t marry her because she’s Thai. I married her because she’s gold.

      I’m not saying this to impress you. I’m saying this to urge you that you should seek such a partner in life – regardless of her culture or nationality. No one should have to tell you this but it seems men are easily conned, often willingly.

      Reply

      • But your wife is Thai and it’s her culture that sin sod is to be made to her family, as it shows that you will love and take care of her in case of divorce and she can use that money to feed her children, but you don’t want to pay and you insist on telling others not to pay, which I think shows that you shouldn’t marry a Thai woman as you don’t uphold their culture and it’s plain to see that you’re not Thai. A Thai guy I know spent 1 million baht and 10 baht gold chain for his bride, so you need to respect the culture when you marry a Thai. If you don’t have a sin sod your wife will be ashamed at you and you will lose respect from her family.

        Reply

        • That’s your rather uneducated view. Sorry, I mean no disrespect when I say that. My wife is educated, makes her own money, and she lived with me for several years before we were married. Her parents knew of this, they respected me and treat me as a true family member. Respect is not earned by throwing money at the family. On the contrary, that would be a lack of respect towards you.

          Fortunately, my family does not see me as a bank. They respect me for what I bring to the table. And I respect them for being an honorable family.

          If you know a Thai guy who spent 1 million baht a 10 baht of gold for his bride, good for him. It could be that he married into a very wealthy family and the money was returned to him, and likely so. But that’s his culture. Not mine.

          If a Thai chooses to marry a non-Thai, then the Thai partner needs to be respectful of the other culture all the same.

          In case of divorce, there are laws in Thailand that protect her. She gets half of the assets acquired during the marriage, and if she owns any land in her name, and you as a foreigner get 0% of that. You need to eat too. Not just her.

          By the way, Thai guys get fleeced too. Don’t think the fleecing only happens to foreigners. If a girl (and her family) is a gold digger, it matters not the nationality of the man. It’s even better if she can get a Thai guy who pays. More face gained for the gold digging family.

          Reply

  47. Why is it that the Thai side is all that matters? What the woman demands it all that matters?

    There are TWO people in a marriage. If only one of them matters, that’s the end of it right there.

    If your Thai girlfriend and her family give no consideration to YOUR traditions and YOUR values; run. This isn’t even about being Thai. Any woman plays this game, she doesn’t care about you and she has brought her family in on the scam… If a woman/family demands Sin Sod/Dowry, they have zero respect for you, you are nothing but a pile of money to be extorted. They may be old traditions, but that’s exactly what they are. It doesn’t carry any real weight anymore, and anyone who brings it up with no respect for a foreigner is only trying to extort you.

    Reply

    • Precisely. If she insists on adhering to Thai customs (which is bull shit anyways since Thais hardly have any consistent customs or culture) she can marry a Thai man. No friction. But since she chooses to venture outside of her culture and choose to marry a man from a culture not of hers she must go beyond understanding his culture but also at least arrive to a middle ground.

      Mine did. No sin sod asked. No requests for money ever from the family.

      Some people on here think I’m making up stories. That’s because they most likely took a woman out of the bar and have convinced themselves they’re noble white knights.

      To these men, I say you deserve to lose every single bit of money to the woman you’ve chosen. Don’t come back later complaining how you’ve been done in.

      There is a world outside of Thailand and I suspect many men are choosing to marry Thai women not because they want to but because feel they have few other options, especially when hearing people whine about western women.

      I’m certain no amount of money your lovely Thai bride demands will make her love and respect you more if you acquiesce. And if she leaves you for asking her to respect your culture or customs, consider yourself lucky.

      In any relationship two people need to bring something of equivalent value to the table. Otherwise you’re buying a wife and that’s the only way to look at it in my view.

      Call me a misogynist if you like. I’d rather be called names and keep my shirt than be a white knight pouring my woes into a pint in a bar after being done in.

      Reply

  48. Excellent, well written article. I also live in Thailand and have a Thai girlfriend who I am marrying next year. This article that you have written is an excellent explanation of Sin sot. I urge all people wishing to marry a Thai girl to read this and fully understand what Sin sot really is. And like the writer stated, don’t listen to bar stool gossips. Do you research.
    Thanks

    Reply

  49. , Im from Singapore and trust me being Singaporean, many of our ASEAN counterpart perceive us as rich and its also normal to hear story of Singaporean thinking they are in love but in the end, it was the wallet.

    1) I would agree and disagree on the part you say ladies have already sacrifice by living or sleeping with you before marriage. It really depend. The having fling culture is very widespread. The ladies you mentioned are usually the really traditional ones or those who are really discipline in not getting a fling even though they stay alone in another city.

    2)I agree that if we think about the money aspect, marrying Thai is usually much cheaper as in our home country. Though SinSod is not exactly giving a dowry but both basically means money going out. So we are fine with it. And just take it that you are giving merit to Thanks her parents for bringing her up. Point 3 will tell you what I have gather about sinsod in current days.

    3) Sinsod is really about face to show their friends and relative. In fact, after marriage to a Singaporean, their parent may have a higher allowance monthly including a nice new house in time to come. So money is not an issue after marriage. Or maybe generally Singaporean will contribute allowance to our parents so its normal.

    4) Thai usually lack planning, so if you tell me the money is meant for the lady in the event her husband leave her, I can say its unlikely the money is still there unless the divorce comes months after marriage. But some may use it to open a small business which generate incomes too.

    5) The best is to really understand them and their culture. Only then you get to understand a lot more about Thai.

    During the course of dating ,you need to know her well. Don’t fall into the honey-trap. Thai ladies are known to be really awesome partners but in every country there are always the black sheep and many black sheep turn towards foreigners so Good luck.

    Reply

    • I am 26 and met a beautiful girl on thaifriendly. She is 25 and she is an English teacher for a public school in a province of Isan. She is a lovely girl, very beautiful, well educated and simply amazing. Her family is neither rich nor poor. They are farmers, they have huge portions of land and they are very friendly people. When talking about marriage and sin sod, we arranged a cerimonial sin sod of 1 million. Half of this money were given back to me after the marriage, and they paid for the ceremony from the other 500k. They wanted to give us back even more, but I refused since I can afford to give away that much with no bad consequences. My wife is a very respectable and beautiful girl, and our love is true and genuine. And Sin Sod it’s a tradition everyone willing to getting married with a Thai woman should respect. Don’t fall for prostitutes, look for a nice girl and build something real. The real problem here is that most of the men talking about failed marriages and prostitutes are older men who took the easy way and went for the “prostitutes market”. And yet they complain after when everything turns against them. Not every Thai girl is a gold digging bitch… don’t expect to find a pearl if you’re looking into a sewer…

      Reply

      • I’m from a poor family but I’m educated. I’ve been working and studying my masters and now working for government in Australia. I’m about to marry and the offer is just to respect traditional culture. As much as my boyfriend could offer to show how powerful and the capacity of him to look after their daughter starting from day one. My parent love to have a plain lifestyle and be so unambiguous, and I think they will think to give us it back and they know that we don’t need it back either, as they still love to be poor, lol. They don’t want to keep it, maybe they plan to give to her grandson/daughter What are you guys talking about? Rich people will ask for an even bigger Sin Sod because they are looking for suitable guy for their daughter and capable guy to their family. If you ever think or mention to get Sin Sod back, don’t even dare to marry a Thai woman (if a woman shows that she is financial support to the guy by returning sin sod it is so disrespectful to the culture because it is designed to give sin sod to the woman’s family. If she worries the guy is not going to marry her because of Sin Sod and talks about it too much, in Thai way we call slut, because she is talking about Money beforehand. So it should be agreed and not spoken about too much. But know that some families expect the guy to get a house, job and asset before marrying to show the parent he is ready and striving to get their daughter.

        Reply

        • Thank you Anne for sharing your experience and some insight on the culture. It just goes to show that each family can have a different approach to sin sod, but there are some rules that should be followed so as not to disrespect the woman’s family.

          Reply

          • This is very disrespectful article could make people misunderstand Traditional Thai culture. Who you collected this info from? Theses are from Nui Nid Nat or who are they? Are they kind of woman who starving in whitemen? Are they the professor or older Thai woman who is so competent in Thai traditional culture. Very very disappointed to this article those are based on scrab friends or individual tiny opinions and or dregs of the society. I was married and 38 years old of age with income approx more than $80k up to $$100k and at lease 3 degrees collected since I came to Australia for bachelor on my age of 23 years old. I still believe in Thai traditional way of my boyfriend want to go my home town has to marry me that the reason. Whatever you say here are rubbishes and if you or any unintelligent slippery guy m…not even think to go see my parent. Don’t ever think to collect my words to show me a better English you have..and of course you are a native. I mean to put rubbishes comments for you to realise.

            Reply

            • Sounds to me like you may actually have been a bar girl yourself. Now you admit you are 38 and have 3 kids and was married before. And you want your now boy friend to make an offer….wow….I am willing to beat it was a white man you was married to….. I visit all Asia alot and it is no secret that men have to watch themselves because most of the girls look at you as money only…. They will lie and mislead you and do it very well… If you even think she is lying or playing games well in Thailand chances are that she is…. I agree if two people truly love each other there are ways to get around this money thing. They should respect your Belief just as you should hers but whatever you do please do not fall for the virgin story. Most (NOT ALL) have not been virgins in years….If they can not give or show equal respect look for someone else….. Anne to me sounds like you do not like white guys…But in all races they have some bad and some good…..But as I said I have been here in Asia for 12 years working as a pilot and guys be very careful of the women in Thailand and The Philippines as well…However women in Thailand are way more Apt to do you in than the ones in the Philippines…Good Luck to all!

              Reply

          • Negotiation is the main point of an arrangement of Sin Sod. If the family is very protective to their daughter. The negotiation can be disappointed to a man and the purpose is just to make a man to be passionate get back to work and much harder then come back to talk to them later on when he is ready and that s the purpose of satisfaction of parents (or process). Not insult or charectorise, category and describe Thai family rich or poor like this. Some woman who work in Bar could value herself in traditional way rather Thai educated who are starving in Men and let men easily to Sin Sod process. How much is not important but as big value as much they could make the offer is the higher value to their daughter as well as exempting the guy to be strong, passionate and stable. Women these days want to get short cut to a guy especially white guy not value her at all by let man easily get through Sin Sod process.

            Reply

            • This process is meant to be so real nasty to a guy access to woman especially for frivolous men. If you think it’s difficult for you with this process. Don’t think to get nice woman marry. It’s better go with woman who could offer you uncommitted relationship or if any nice woman who you think nice allow you to access through this process. The woman is too easy and not value herself. I recommend you people don’t get marry in Thai custom at all…it will destroy traditional culture.

              Reply

              • The thing is Anne, if someone wants to marry a Thai woman more than likely they will have to go along with traditional Thai customs as the girl will never disrespect her family. Family values in Thailand are most important, a bit like the west was 50-60 years ago when family looked after each other and showed respect, something that now lacks in western culture significantly. Any man that goes down the path of marrying a Thai lady has to be careful and not let himself be exploited and if he feels he is then he should back out.

                Reply

                • @Callum – In the west 50-60 years ago we may have had family values that are now lacking. But we didn’t have the family values of so many Thais who seek out foreign husbands to cleanse his wallet and savings. We for the most part had honour based on honesty and dignity.

                  The same as the Thais will not disrespect or abandon their families for you – all foreign men who are considering relationships with a Thai woman must look carefully at her family and their character. 15 years living and working in Thailand has taught me this is something you must do. And to walk away when you see the facts are not in your favour no matter how much you may love her. If they pay for nothing, you are an outsider to them and they don’t respect you. Plain and simple.

                  Reply

    • Where can I learn about Thai culture without actually living there? I would like to visit Thailand from the US and would not want to insult or disappoint the locals while a guest in their country, so this is important to me. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

      Reply

      • Hi Bill

        I’ve been reading about Thai culture for about 10 months now and due to fly out to Bangkok for my second trip in 4 weeks time to meet my Thai girl friend. All I can stay is read some of the good blogs, be respectful to their culture as it’s important to them. I found a good youtube channel that helped me learn some basic Thai and it was easy to understand. If your going in search of a lady, girl friend please keep away from the bar girls. Most of the bar girls are only interested in taking you to ATM cash machine every few days.

        I tend to find the girls from the more rural areas are very genuine. My girl friend is a senior nurse and works in a Bangkok hospital but her family lives further north of BKK. The ladies in Chang Mai, Udon Thani region and rural areas of Thailand are better but that’s just my opinion.

        I met my girl friend online and spent nearly 6 months video chatting with her on Skype & LINE App before actually meeting, don’t give them any money initially if they ask. It’s different after you meet a few times and get to know her. If I can help with anything of give you any advice just ask and I’ll try and answer you.

        Reply

      • Respect is something earned. Not something given. Respect those who will respect you. You will not insult a Thai who respects you. Plenty of Thais visit and live in America without adhering to American ‘ways’ and yet few Americans ever feel insulted.

        Just keep your head on your shoulders when in Thailand and only meet women who would be the type of women you would want to be with at home.

        Most of those people who will feel insulted by a westerner are out to get something from you and will be insulted when you call them out on it.

        There’s very little else to be worried about.

        Reply

  50. Some good articles, I’m going out to Bangkok in November to meet my girlfriend and hopefully speak to her mum about Sinsod as her father passed away many years ago. I looking for some idea of what I might be expected to show\pay, my girl friend is universty educated and works as a nurse in Bangkok. I’m also trying to understand the Thongmun tradition for getting engaged and this means spending money on gold for you bride to be. What should I be expected to pay for the giving of gold for the Thongmun. She mentioned to me that is might be as much as £10,000 and I nearly fell off my seat, surely she needs to be realistic about what I can afford.

    Reply

    • Hi Calum, Im in a similar situation with my Thai girlfriend who Ive known for nearly 2 years now, she’s a lovley girl and we have such a strong emotional bond with each other. So far Ive been over there twice, only six weeks altogether, Im going back there in Jan, for 4 weeks, She is very insistent about getting married and us finding a house there, Ive explained to her that I still need to live in UK as well as Thailand so possibly 6 months at a time is what I suggested, its not her ideal dream of a future life with her new (2nd) husband but I have 3 kids in the UK (all over 18 now) and I dont want to completely disappear from their lives. As for the Sin Sod I guess it comes down to how much you can afford? £10,000 I agree, is a big wad of cash!

      Reply

      • Hi Tony

        I’m going back on the 5th November for 8 days and we are going to see her mother. I just can’t think that £10,000 is realistic for the Thongmun just for getting engaged. I know fine when it comes to getting married I might have to pay that much for Sinsod but its negotiable also. If your wife to be has been married before, you should not be expected to pay much for the Sinsod as in Thai tems she has already given her seed to another man. You may want to pay an amount just as a gesture top the family. I’m only 45 so have many years to work yet and will bring my future wife back to Scotland with the intention of having a family as she is only 32, she wants to work in Scotland as she is a senior nurse at a hospital in Bangkok.

        My girl friends family are very poor from what I believe as her father died many years ago now. They have some land that the grow mangos on and I was thinking of helping them finance building a house on the land. I have a friend who has built a house on family land and now retired out there and the 2 bedroom bungalow cost 20K GBP including air conditioning and all the furnishings.

        Reply

  51. First of all thanks for this blog which give a good explanation and guidelines as well. I would like to focuse on one part ” divorce” and the Thai Law which then occures for me as german . I can find in some comments it is said like …….”any assets you own in UK are protected ”……another ……”Bear in mind that this applies to property/ assets in Thailand , not assets acquired in your home country during marriage , the court can’t rule on those ”…… . On the other side seeing what german / thai layers write on their Homepages – they talk about marriage contract like what we have in germany . ( marimonial property law ). So my simple question : I need a marriage contract or no need if Thai court cant rule my assets abroad and can reflect only on my assets here in Thailand . So do I need a marriage contract to protect my assets abroad . I add: place of marriage Thailand .

    Reply

    • 100%. Why bother marrying someone if you have to SHOW them something, when they have NOTHING TO SHOW you?

      Another important consideration is … has the notion of Sin Sod been used to extract money from foreigners unaware of the Thai culture surrounding Sin Sod? If the answer is yes, then is it a tradition which can and has been abused. Since we know Sin Sod has been used (as a bare minimum) to extract money from foreigners on several accounts, then when it comes to marriage between a foreigner and a Thai, especially from the stereotypical rural, low income Thai, then extraction of money is the norm. Refusing to participate in this extraction usually ends up in a quick end to the relationship. So much for the Thai culture of LOVE.

      I’m sure in some places around the world it’s the norm for the bride to lose her virginity to an uncle. Well, let’s respect that culture and heck, if you can’t respect such a tradition, you should not be marrying this person. Nor they you.

      It boggles the mind how many foreigners, particularly westerners, lose their senses when it comes to the fool’s gold otherwise known as a Thai woman.

      Reply

  54. My girlfriend’s parents wanted 5,000,000 Baht for sin sod in the beginning and now have lowered that to 1,000,000 Baht. They refuse my offer of 200,000 Baht and refuse to discuss our marriage anymore. My girlfriend says today average Baht price should be in the millions. Because I cannot pay this amount the parents feel I cannot take care of their daughter. According to the culture what happens between the dating to the actual marriage ceremony? I know there are tons of scams out there and want to safe that I am not being scammed. What should I do from here on in to insure she is not scamming me?

    Reply

    • Are her parents suggesting that they will keep this money for themselves? That they will keep it for their daughter, in case you divorce; that they will give it back to you guys to buy a house; or just give it back after the wedding?

      1MB to show isn’t uncommon for an educated woman who hasn’t being married before and has no kids. The initial 5MB is out of the question unless they are a very well do to family. At these sort of amounts I assume they want a big wedding in a hotel, etc? Middle class families tend to do this rather than poorer families who have the wedding in the home.

      At the end of the day, you can only afford what you can afford. The idea that a man should financially cripple himself before he marries is plain stupid. Common sense says save as much money as you can so that you can start your marriage on a prosperous footing.

      There is always the possibility that they don’t want you to marry their daughter and are trying to price you out, knowing you can’t afford those amounts. But that said; the foreigners I know, and there has been two, who have been refused by the family were told outright after the first meeting (through the daughter). The relationships ended as soon as the father said “no way”. Also, they have dropped down in price so it suggests they are trying their luck.

      I would simply say this is what I can afford to show, this is what I can afford to give (if they plan on keeping some of it): like it or lump it.

      Reply

  55. I love this topic.

    I understand both sides, and both sides are right. How does a Thai man who makes 40,000 baht afford a sin sod of 500,000 baht? The price for any decent girl. The answer is his family. Because, Thais accept this. But a foreigners family in no way is going to help pay $20,000 or more to the girls family.

    That’s the foreigners perspective. For the Thai, not paying sin sod is simply unacceptable. It’s like getting married and not having a wedding ring. I would say simply “when in Rome”.

    Reply

    • Indeed, David. Though, a poor Thai man could marry a decent girl. I mean, not all decent women are wealthy or from good families. I assume by decent you mean well-educated and from a middle-class family? The thing is, a poor Thai man wouldn’t be on the same social scale as such a woman, so therefore wouldn’t need to stump up that sort of money for a marriage to a woman on his social level. That said, many Thai men do borrow money to get the sin sod together. It’s not just about appropriating the status of the bride to be, but also not wanting others to look down on his family. Most will aim for a sin sod above 100k, where possible, with 200k being a common figure these days. The reality is that this is a deep rooted tradition in Thailand and, if you marry a Thai woman, you are most likely going to have to appropriate the tradition. Simply follow the rule of pay (show) what you can afford to. In the modern day, large sin sods are usually shown because the groom has access to the money and can do so, but more often than not a large percentage of this amount is given back. If the bride’s family is already wealthy, they may not keep any of it. For poorer families, the sin sod is seen as a pay day of sorts for investing care and hard labour into bringing up a “decent” daughter.

      Reply

  56. My 35 year old son is planning to marry a 35 year old Thai woman that he met on his vacation. He met her at a massage parlor and paid for her to stay at his hotel overnight. She comes from a poor village, was previously married and has a ten year old daughter that she does not see. The daughter is with her Thai father in another part of Thailand since she was an infant. My son has agreed to pay a Sin Sod of $3,800cad, and is planning a Thai wedding and hopes to bring her to Canada. Unfortunately, my son has lost his job, but he expects that I should contribute most of the money for the Sin Sod and the wedding. I have read the articles and know that a Sin Sod is not required under these circumstances. How do I knock some sense into him? Very Frustrated

    Reply

    • Hmmm, this is a difficult and understandably sensitive situation. The reality here is that in her situation, she would find it very difficult to find a decent Thai man to marry. Her profession, age, level of education, class (on the social scale) and the fact that she has been married before all count against here, so to speak. I writing strictly from the Thai societal hierarchical point of view here and mean no disrespect to her as a human being. She may be a kind, compassionate, lovely person for all I know. While technically speaking a sin sod isn’t wholly applicable, it is up to individuals in these situations if one is present. In my experience, most second marriages do involve some sin sod, though usually not a large one. But again, this is dependent on the wealth of the families involved.

      The social level of Thai man she would have access to would most likely be very poor and unable to pay a sin sod of more than 20-70k. Usually, in poor circles and in such circumstances, the sin sod is somewhere in that range. The amount your son speaks of isn’t that much more (a little over 100k).

      It isn’t the sin sod that would concern me here though. How much does your son know about this woman? I get so many emails from men who have jumped in quickly and been taken for a ride. Surely without a job he should consider waiting until his financial position is better and he doesn’t have to borrow from you? With her history, he may find it hard to get a visa to bring her to Canada, especially if he doesn’t have an income. He should also consider that she probably has it in mind that he will be assuming financial responsibility for her family. For her this will be a given, because she will be giving up work to be with him.

      With all due respect to her, there are a million or more single 30 something, reasonably well-educated Thai women working everyday jobs, able to support themselves financially, and looking for a genuine relationship that isn’t transactional. Would it not make sense to wait a while, meet some more women and reconsider his position? Though I understand that he may be in love with this woman and has sees beyond the superficial aspects of her past and status. I respect that, but I’ve seen one too many of these situations turn out very badly. The problem is that going forward he will have to carry all the financial responsibility, for her mother and father and possibly her daughter. And then there’s the visa process, getting her settled in a new country — what if she doesn’t get on well there? People can be hostile to foreigners, and nasty with regards to stereotypes about Asian women. Acclimatizing to a new culture will be a huge, tough learning curve for her. It’s a massive step to marry a woman from a completely different culture, let alone one who will become completely financially dependent on you.

      Hope this helps in some way. All the best.

      Reply

    • Don’t let him do it. Trust me. Sin Sod are the least of your troubles with this type of woman. Sorry to sound stereotypical, but she is not what she appears to be. She works a job where she “satisfies” customers by the hour (or two), and gets paid accordingly. Her definition of “love” is drawn from her need to elevate her family status through the foreigner (your son) and she will equate his love with his ability and willingness to pay.

      I know of what I speak, and I can almost guarantee you it is a recipe for financial and emotional disaster.

      Reply

    • Wholly cow, the description is classic and so will be the years of problems ahead if he goes through with it. Some of my wife’s friends or acquaintances are women such as described and they are a nightmare for their husbands. Some are even real ‘sluts’, may sound inappropriate and harsh but a truth. Some of these ladies usually have several guys on the go attached to the milking machine.

      Reply

  57. I have a Thai girlfriend but I only make 30K a year. She said her sister went for 8,000,000 Baht but that her parents will accept 5,000,000 Baht. I do not have a lot of money so how to I go about discussing this. I have mentioned I only make around 16.00 and hour to her already. i could afford 100,000 -200,000 Baht. A friend of mine told me to wait till after she accepts my proposal. What do you think?

    Reply

    • I think she’d have to be from a well respected, rich family, been educated first at private school in Thailand, then abroad at University in the US, Australia or UK to be looking at that kind of Sin Sod. Without wanting to be rude, a woman with a status in Thailand who commands that kind of Sin Sod would no doubt already be wealthy and marrying someone of greater wealth than herself.

      Reply

      • I told her I would only pay 200,00 Baht for the sin sod. If here family is looking to cash in on me it won’t happen. Thanks for the comment. She has university degree in Thailand but is only getting a 2 year certificate here so the sin sod should be less. She is 32 years old. Did I make the right decision to tell them that this was all I could afford?

        Reply

  58. Sin Sod – What You Should Pay to Marry Your Thai Girlfriend…

    Answer = nothing

    You will in almost all situations where a foreigner is marrying a Thai, be upgrading her life. Forget about her status (unless you’re that shallow that you care about such meaningless crap).

    Prostitutes are for short term sexual relief and entertainment. Your existence as a man, especially if you’re a western man, is far more significant than discarding it for a definitely meaningless belief as far as you are concerned. More importantly, the hookers should be thanking you as few Thais would bring such a person home with a marriage proposal on offer.

    Of course the hooker may see you as a replacement of her freelance income but rest assured in most cases you will fail in your attempts to bring her out of that life, especially if she is under 35. Even past 35, it will be a major task since her views have long been shaped by the notion that she is entitled to your money by then.

    I believe there are more Thai women who are not interested in your money and are more than happy to chip in. Not that I needed it, but I made sure my wife chips in the expenses. She pays a third of the monthly bill not because I’m in need of her money but because if she loves me she better prove it by chipping in. Otherwise, out the door.

    Guys – you are the asset. Stop acting like pussies cow towing to these desperadoes who see you as their meal ticket. They know their worth in Thai society which is why they look at you, the foreigner, as their last attempt to redeem their status. Yet, they will fail in most cases because poverty is a mindset. Do you want to go down with their poverty driven ways?

    Reply

    • So essentially your advice is: Move to Thailand – a country with its own deep-rooted traditions and culture – meet a woman that you like, get into a relationship, then, when you want to get married, tell her and her family to shove their country’s tradition where the sun doesn’t shine because as a foreigner you are an asset and they should be lucky that you even graced their country by stepping foot in it in the first place? Doesn’t really sound like the type of relationship I’d want to be in, and I doubt the woman in question would want to be in either.

      Why do you associate sin sod with hookers? Thai weddings across all classes still adhere to this tradition. And why do you call it a “meaningless belief”. It’s an integral part of the Thai wedding culture and has been for centuries. It reflects the hierarchical society, thus the amount shown has historically reflected family name, wealth, education, etc. I don’t necessarily agree with it, but if you’re going to marry a Thai woman, or live in Thailand, it is essential that you understand what it represents — and it certainly isn’t just a made up tradition to rip off foreigners!

      Maybe it’s just better to marry a woman from your own country instead of getting angry about sin sod…

      Reply

      • Totally agree mate, there is far to much disrespect of native peoples cultures around the world.
        If you have no interest in respecting and following there laws/culture then just leave them alone they did just fine before you went there.
        I personally would not want a partner who walks away from her heritage and family for financial gain.
        Such a small price to pay (money) for the best reward in life ( a loyal, loving partner).

        Reply

        • No they did not do just fine before you showed up. They practiced outright slavery and themselves would never touch the women foreigners typically find themselves marrying.

          I come from Canada, I would like to see how many of these people you feel I disrespect would sacrifice their culture to live and respect my culture?

          Culture is myth. It differs not only from one country to another, from one family to another. You’ll never get one straight answer about anything related to culture. So there’s nothing to hold on to and nothing to give up (except your money if you’re a fool, in which case, serves you right).

          And no, I am not white. I am of Asian origin.

          Reply

      • So essentially, you are saying, a Thai woman who wants to marry a foreigner should completely ignore his culture, in fact, not even bother to learn it. Traditions change. It wasn’t long ago that a Thai woman marrying a foreigner was viewed TRADITIONALLY as a whore/bar girl.

        Sin Sod is an outdated practice. You upholding it is akin to upholding stoning women to death for accusing a man of raping her in some Asian cultures. I’m sure you feel selling children to factories is a meaningless, if not, horrible practice that needs to stop. I don’t know why white knights like you seem to shave off your balls thinking it’s OK for Thai families to uphold a culture that puts much pressure on the WOMEN to show the man they love, Thai or otherwise, needs to present cash on the table. You can call it what you like, it’s a dowry. Especially in the majority of cases where a Thai woman is entering a relationship with a foreign man.

        It’s outdated. It’s irrelevant to me as a Thai woman interested in marrying a foreigner for valid, genuine reasons, should not demand or expect her culture to pervade. It’s that simple.

        No, Sin Sod is not just for hookers. But the many men asking the question as relates to Sin Sod are dealing with hookers or ex-hookers. If they were not, they would know from the families of these wives that they have no intention whatsoever to keep the money.

        Being white skinned is very much a thing in Thai culture. The whiter you are, the more beautiful you are considered. Let’s uphold that culture too. You do realize how nonsensical your argument is. Once any person decides to marry another from a different culture, the individual’s culture becomes irrelevant.

        By the way, I have been married to a Thai for 10 years. She has been faithful to me all these years, and chips in with the expenses. I neither discussed Sin Sod with her parents, nor did they keep any of my money. Nor do they ever ask.

        Let it be clear that anyone in a relationship with a Thai who asks for cash handouts or payments or purchases beyond their means is being played by a plain hooker.

        Perhaps, you have a tendency to write on topics that you have not fully studied, and commenting to people whose experiences you know nothing about.

        Reply

        • TTL: I also read your sympathy piece on prostitutes and bar girls, and while yes, most women do not aspire to enter these careers, many, do it out of CHOICE. They can STOP when they meet a decent foreign man yet many CHOOSE to continue working the game.

          Perhaps they are guilted into it by their families. I am sure, if your family guilted you into entering prostitution, you would make the importance decision based on what YOU think is right to do, not what you parents demand of you.

          But white knights shall never learn. No matter how much you help a hooker, she is that. There are many many women in Thailand who come from impoverished families who do not choose to enter the field.

          As my (Thai) wife always reminds me, the hookers are lazy, they CHOOSE to be hookers because it’s fun and easy work (as far they are concerned). Perhaps, here and there, a woman enters and does not enjoy this work. So she tries to leave and find more acceptable work in society, only to discover those jobs require effort for pay. They then return to the sex scene. It’s just too easy, especially when one is young.

          You’ve only painted it as a horrific ordeal for these women. I can tell you as a matter of FACT and EXPERIENCE that many women have chosen this path despite having a foreign man ‘take care’ of financial needs, and UPGRADE their lives in many ways.

          But to stay on topic of Sin Sod (dowry). Like rampant prostitution, it is a deeply entrenched part of Thai culture, much as honour killing is a part of other cultures. But you go on upholding the importance of it for your own peace of mind.

          Reply

        • Please don’t call yourself ‘Professor’, it’s kinda degrading for other Professors out there for someone like you to assume the name ‘Professor’.

          If you’re really a Professor, then you should be fired from your job. I pity you.

          People have different cultures, some follow it, some doesn’t follow it, it depends on the family and the person itself. The same goes to your ‘Wife’, if you really do have a ‘Wife’.

          That’s their belief. So, Who the Hell are you to degrade those Thai women and their families who follow generations of traditions that their family follows?

          Don’t go blasting other people’s culture just because you don’t like it.

          Three words that describe you?

          Bigoted, Misogynist, Pig.

          Reply

          • Yes, of course. You know much. I know plenty of Thais who don’t like Thai culture.

            As for the name calling, very mature of you.

            I call myself what I want, and I say whatever I want. It’s MY CULTURE.

            And yes, I do have a wife, been together 10 years to this date. No dowries, no monks, no requests for payments or financial assistance. And never came to a forum or blog to ask …

            No, I am not a bigoted, misogynist pig.

            My Thai wife loves me, respects my views, understands that if something is not right for one person in a relationship, then it’s not for the relationship.

            If something is not right in my own culture, I call it what it is.

            It’s called being honest with yourself and with your partner.

            If you choose to be a beta male sheep dog (well known for name calling), you have my blessing.

            Reply

          • Go observe a female genital mutilation ritual in Africa and say nothing, for you should not disrespect the culture. Go observe some honour killings in South Asia, and respect the culture while you are at it.

            Just because something has been happening for a long time, doesn’t make it right.

            Like slavery. Get it?

            Reply

            • @Mik: Just for you, this is why you are not qualified to determine whether I should keep my job. Do you even speak Thai? If you marry a Thai woman and produce a daughter, are you going to uphold this long tradition of Sin Sod and demand a payment for her hand?

              For the rest of the men here…

              Read and LEARN. And pay attention. Your culture is not inferior to that of the Thai. Few if any of the women whose families demand or expect Sin Sod of the foreigner are interested in your culture. So what’s all this fuss about respecting her culture?

              Besides, MANY foreigners marry without paying Sin Sod. OK. They may “show” it at a ceremony. But make no mistake that it is not required of you, and any woman who makes it a condition of your relationship is less than half as worthy as owning a pet.

              YES, call me a misogynist and a bigot. Last I checked, it’s 2016 and Thai women are working jobs that pay as much if not more than their male counterparts. Last I checked, most of the jobs in Thailand are reserved for Thais, and not foreigners. And you don’t see many Thais in arms protesting about this.

              We are all left to choose our own paths, no one is putting a gun to your head. If your existence is merely about making women/people happy at your own expense, that’s your choice.

              Reply

              • Damn, you’re really a Professor? From which university? So that I can screenshot your comments and hand it to the administration (that way, you really will get fired). But I guess you’re too much of a pussy for that.

                Someone calling himself a Qualified Professor and handing out stupid, bigoted comments (also defending it in a paranoid manner) is just too cringy. And yes, you’re a Bigoted, Misogynist Pig.

                You do know that you contradicted yourself in your comments?

                One moment, you said ‘No, I’m not a Bigot and Misogynist’, then in the next comment, you said ‘Yes, call me a Misogynist Bigot since it’s 2016’ shit? Make up your damn mind. But yeah, that’s kinda funny with you being all defensive and shit. 🙂

                Were you really affected by that comment to give out 3 replies? LOL!!

                I’d rather be a ‘beta’ male than a bigass bigoted jerk who can’t take the time to know and understand the culture of others. Blasting sin sod just because you don’t like it is a pretty douche move. Comparing Sin Sod to killings and slavery is also pretty idiotic.

                Not all sin sod are scams. It’s a tradition.

                Take your own advice, do it yourself. Read and Learn. Who the hell said any culture being inferior to other cultures? I pity your (imaginary) thai wife.

                And please, if you’re gonna reply to this comment, 1 reply will suffice. It’s funny how you get so paranoid.

                Reply

                • Here’s one reply for you. My wife thinks it’s 2016 and for 10 years that she’s been with me, she thinks too many foreigners think they know Thai women and it should serve them right if they lose their money and their hearts because they think that I’m a misogynist. She’s happy to pay her own way. It’s 2016.

                  Let’s not keep harping on my qualifications. First you show me you can live with a Thai woman for 10+ years harmoniously without spending all your money to keep her there. Then you can screenshot all you like ok?

                  Reply

                • Mik – you keep saying my wife is imaginary. Clearly you believe that because I say I didn’t pay any Sin Sod. In other words, you believe all Thai women and families are the same, and you need to pay/show them money to be with you.

                  So the last person I will be taking advice from about learning or reading is you. I’m fluent in Thai, I’ve lived around the world. I am fully aware of different cultures and respecting them.

                  That does not mean YOUR or MY culture is inferior to theirs.

                  You seem to think that respecting whatever a Thai woman or her family tells you makes you some kind of liberal non-misogynist?

                  I’ve been with my VERY REAL wife for more than 10 years. I don’t know about you, but my wife does not and has never expected payment of any kind to stay with me.

                  She pays her own way, she contributes to the house and the bills. There’s nothing imaginary about this, I assure you.

                  And there is nothing imaginary – nor unqualified about me.

                  Comparing a cultural requirement is not silly. If someone wants to take your money and tells you it’s culture, you should be wise enough to recognize it.

                  If it’s ceremonial, and will be returned, AS IS CUSTOM, then no issues.

                  Reply

      • That’s what I did said I love u and ill suport u not ur family We’ve been together 15 years and have the only sucess full marriage out of her group of Thai friends in the UK as we both know where we stand. She works and built her house in Thailand with her own money. I do buy her younger siblings birthday gifts like laptops and mobiles but that because I like them not because they expect it. I have a very good university educated Thai lady friend family who own a rubber plantation in surit thanni.She married a Yank.He wasn’t asked for and does not give a penny they have another very sucessful relationship. If they ask u for money unless ur th same age as her as attractive as her run a mile……….pretty young Thai girls don’t fall in love with old Farangs.

        Reply

  59. Hi there,

    Just wondering about engagement rings, is it normal for the man to buy an engagement ring for himself as well as the woman? Or is the engagement ring only to be worn by the woman and the man only wears a wedding band come the wedding. Thanks in advance!

    Reply

    • Historically rings are not part of the ceremony; this is a western influence. However, many Thai women now opt for a ring. It isn’t as common in the rural areas as it is in Bangkok though, and generally poorer couples don’t bother. A man certainly wouldn’t have an engagement ring. Wedding rings are also a personal choice.

      Reply

    • I don’t think there is a rule for this, but rather this would be a suggestion. So, “Let’s agree to show x, then x is returned to me after the wedding, and you can keep x”. Just tell your GF what you can afford to offer. If her family want to show more, which is often the case, you can choose to agree on the condition the amount above what you can afford to give is returned to you.

      Reply

  61. It’s amazing how old this blog is, yet retains relevance half a decade later. Yes, it took me many hours to read all posts and I’m gonna throw in my two bahts worth. What I, a 40 year old African man simply cannot understand is: Why on earth would any man find a seasoned prostitute to make a for wife material? It doesn’t even matter to me whether the girl is Thai or American. You can’t turn a whore into a housewife. You almost deserve to be scammed, in fact, begging for it.

    Sin sot is honestly speaking not a uniquely Thai concept. If I was to marry traditionally, I would be expected to send my uncles to her uncles to discuss lobola (a sort of fee to show that I am willing to commit to her and the fee is normally not so high that I must be in debt for years on end yet still not so low that I will be keen to take a second wife). Unfortunately, in modern days and a westernized society, this time honoured African tradition has backfired: fewer and fewer men marry. It is seen as an impractical absurd and expensive exercise which honestly is not really helping the man with anything. After all, many couples cohabit, have children and eventually marry at the court.
    The “face” element of a huge sin sod gained by a bar girl only tells me she must have piles of filth if it requires that much sin sod face wash. You’d probably do better finding a girl away from bars and live a happy scam free life.

    Personally, I wouldn’t kiss a prostitute on her lips, never mind dating one! I’m open minded and have no race issues so whomever I decide to marry, would certainly not be a girl I met selling her body and surely wouldn’t be after two week exotic holiday. That’s just how I feel, feel free to feel otherwise, just don’t go painting millions of Thai women as gold digging whores when really you are the one shopping for fresh and hot baked bread in the frozen food section!

    I sincerely enjoyed reading up on this blog! TY TTL!

    Reply

    • Hey Jamluv, welcome to TTL! I think it’s an important point to make than Sin Sot/sod is not a uniquely Thai concept and, as you note, many countries have variations of the “dowry”. Indeed, dowry or not, most women in most countries would prefer not to marry someone poorer than themselves. After all, the monetary system encourages a life of gain, not loss. So at the core this is preprogrammed into society.

      Clearly there are Thai women, working in prostitution or otherwise “regular” jobs that see a relationship with a foreigner as a path to a wealthier life, and sin sod is part of that path. So yes, it is imperative that foreigners seeking a partner in Thailand don’t rush into relationships and date women in the same way they would in their own country. But one also has to respect that sin sod is a tradition that still thrives in all corners of Thai society, not just among bar girls, poor girls, etc. In fact, in the upper echelons of society, it is still a major part of a wedding ceremony and a chance for a man and woman to show others the wealth and success of their family.

      Reply

  62. Hi. Probably the best article I have seen on the topic, thanks !

    One question though. I am a bit in an odd situation.

    I am getting married in a week. My wife to be is 37, has never been married, left school pretty early, comes from a rural background, and clearly her family doesn’t have much. I am a foreigner, same age, who used to have a decent salary working in Thailand but have been unemployed for a year now (so we’ve lived on my wife 15K salary and tapping in my savings (about 30K a month) during that time).

    Now when we started talking about the Sin Sod topic, I fell into the opposite situation from the one usually described : i.e. my wife-to-be just didn’t want us to give more than 100K, half of it being in gold that she expects her family to return to her (she’s done the talking with her mum, probably a mistake from my side I guess).

    1/ Should I reopen the topic and push to give more ?
    2/ Or should I give more separately ? (i.e. a few months after the wedding, when the new job I just found will have made our finances healthier)
    3/ Or should I leave this as they are since everything has been discussed and agreed between them ?

    Any advice will be appreciated….

    PS: a little bit more information just to avoid misunderstandings
    – My wife has a respectable job – no bar girl or anything like that
    – We have been together 3 years and she’s never asked me for money, never
    – She sends 3K to mum every month & her brother send some money too
    – Her dad passed away so the mum lives alone with her niece
    – I feel there may be something broken between my wife and her family since she doesn’t visit them more than once or twice a year, tops, although it’s only a 2-3 hours trip from Bangkok. – but this is THE one topic she never wanted to talk about. I understand there is some form of jealousy, my wife thinking her mum has always been more loving with her brother than with her…
    – We did set the wedding date before I found my new job here in anticipation of a permanent move to Europe (where it would have been easier for me to find a job in my branch). Although my savings were getting really low, if we left Thailand without making a ceremony and dinner party here for her family and friends I would have felt like I am stealing her from her friends and family !

    Reply

    • Hi John,

      I think in terms of the sin sod you have a good situation. Your wife to be obviously respects your financial position and what she is suggesting is fine. I don’t think you should reopen the topic or push to give more post the wedding. It’s unnecessary. Besides, your wife will most likely want to continue giving a monthly amount to her mother after you’re married — even though technically she isn’t dutifully bound to after she marries.

      Your GF’s situation with her family is not uncommon. It is often said that boys are spoilt by their parents in Thailand and get away with murder, so to speak. You’ll often find the onus is put on the daughters to provide for their parents and little if anything is expected from the sons. Of course, not every situation is like this, but it is common and I’m yet to figure out how this came to be. Many people speculate that the spoiling of sons during their younger years is responsible for the prevalence of irrational, jealous outbursts, often violent, that occur in male Thai society when they don’t get their own way. I don’t have any scientific data to prove a correlation, but it somewhat makes sense, and my wife certainly doesn’t disagree with this theory.

      Reply

  63. I read article and several comments, responses… now I have an itch on my own about ‘how much I should offer?’ based on my circumstances as I am currently engaged to a Thai woman. I am from U.S.A. Your input will be greatly appreciated. Please read below as I want to share the following information in order for you to assist me on financial calculations:

    1.-FAMILY NAME: In my own perspective regarding my Thai woman … family name is not an issue/irrelevant for calculation purposes (I could be completely wrong depending on your interpretation after you reading all my remarks)…. However according to her (my Thai woman), her Mother and Father is well known in her ‘village’, they are farm work class family who take care of two grandchildren (from another daughter).

    I had the opportunity to meet and live for about 5 days with my Thai woman Mother and Father which have a humble house and some farm land, no one has air conditioning and in my eyes I considered them financially disadvantage to a degree because my Thai woman has TWO older sisters*. ONE* sister lives in Chon Buri (near Pattaya city) which is married to a Thai gentleman and (I assume) both send money to my Thai woman’s Father and Mother because they take care of the two grandchildren a boy (about 5 yrs. old) and a girl (about 10 yrs. old). SECOND* sister (or brother, I do not really recall) is married and lives in England, I do not know anything else. I must say that I really like her Mother and Father (and all the characters (friends & family) in their village :)) I tried asking how much should I offer and Father answered with ‘… up to you’, I said we can discuss in the future. The only thing I can say is that I would like to help them monthly basis just like my Thai woman is been doing it (she says she used to send 15,000.00 to 20,000.00 bahts monthly for food.

    2.-EDUCATION: No University, I believe she finished elementary school or finished or almost finished high school.

    3.PRIOR MARITAL STATUS: My Thai woman was engaged to a prior gentleman but never married officially and the relationship ended. That is the only information my Thai woman has provided me.

    4.-DEPENDENTS. None (no children), unless we consider my Thai woman’s Mother & Father.

    5.-JOB. Please read: I will be honest to you my dear reader, just like I have been telling her to be honest with me and with immigration application for her to come to U.S.A (in progress). I met her at an ‘a-go-go bar’ on April 28, 2016 (before I spent several days in Angkor Wat/Siem Reap Cambodia), she was ‘bar fined’ and even though I could go out with another lady (or many ladies) with me ending up paying a ‘bar fine’ on this or other establishments, I did not do it, so before she left with ‘customer’ I told her I will be back tomorrow. Well next day April 29, 2016 I arrive late again and she just got ‘bar fined’ again, so I paid bar fine for April 30, 2016 (one day prior). I really was intrigued about her and no one else [I like the fact that I never saw her in ‘a go go bar’ outfit or dancing… ever] (believe me when I say –sexuality was set aside in my being- and to tell you the truth I know I am not the most handsome man, but I definitely do not consider myself unattractive and I could continue dating women back in U.S.A. but I have been taken to the cleaners date after date and when I finally married and now I am divorced I just have about $60,000.00 U.S. dollars in debt ). Anyhow on April 30, 2016 I told her about myself and ask her if she likes working there, which she tells me she does it for her mother and father, she tells me she does not like her ‘job,’ she tell me she sends mother and father about 15,000.00 to 20,000.00 bahts. I tell her that I am looking for someone that practice Buddhism, but most importantly someone that is willing to give their heart to a man, not just ‘body’ for compromised. I mentioned I was a combat Veteran in the U.S. military, I done many actions I am not proud off, I accept full responsibility of my past actions and expect no one to judge my past, I tell her I can certainly ignored her past if she is willing to stop working on such environment, why you may ask? because she stole my heart. I left back to U.S.A on May 1, 2016, we kept in touch, and she invites me to go with her family in her village. I book a ticket and I arrive on Thailand May 12, 2016, I tell her that if our relationship is serious, she cannot go back to work to any a go-go bar. She tells me she will stay in her village until comes to U.S.A. with me. One of her brother’s is a Buddhist monk which traveled with her family… wow was he philosophically humanistic insightful! ….
    — I don’t know if I should mention to her family (including her brother the Buddhist Monk) about her previous ‘job’ which she did for 6 months… but if we take in consideration this section about ‘JOB’ I don’t really know how kind I should be or not offering at all… — feedback will be greatly appreciate.

    6. AGE: 23 yrs. old about to turn 24 yrs. old.

    Please read above, analyzing fact and my current circumstance ‘should I still offer anything’? Plus, I want to be nice about offering money, but I can only offer a few because of debt, immigration procedures, my own living expenses and most importantly planning a legit future for us. I WOULD be extremely grateful for any input about my writing (please forgive spelling errors and/or side stories, but I just don’t have the time to concentrate for an accurate summary of my inquiry).

    -Israel

    FYI/PS: I told her, “if you want money, tell me how much you want, I will send you the amount you want, (I will find a way to give her the amount as I have a good paying job) and I told her after you received money I will wish you to be happy and you will not hear from me. Don’t break my heart, is all I am asking.”

    Reply

    • Hi Israel,

      Sorry for the delayed reply but I had to consult some Thai friends on this question to make sure I’d get this right.

      Having previously worked as a prostitute is irrelevant when it comes to paying Sin Sod because you are accepting her as she is and choosing to marry her. Therefore a Sin Sod is still due, though of course it would be lower because of her profession. Considering her level of education and family status on the social hierarchy, the social level of Thai man she could expect to marry would probably be able to afford no more than 20,000 Baht, perhaps 50,000 at a stretch.

      In terms of mentioning to her family where you met her and what she has been doing for a job, don’t say anything. They will know already but it won’t be discussed or ever mentioned. Moreover, if it gets out as public knowledge among her village and friends and family, she will never recover. Most will probably have some idea and be gossiping anyway. In small-minded village life there isn’t much people don’t know about each other’s business.

      Lastly, personally I would not mention on the immigration form about her having worked as a go-go dancer. Prostitution is illegal in Thailand and this might trigger a refusal due to doubts over her intentions when visiting the US. You might choose to say bar and not go-go bar. Perhaps you could say she served drinks or something. I’m not saying to lie, but don’t give the suggestion that she was working in that capacity — better to sugar coat the truth a bit.

      In terms of your own personal welfare, I’d think long and hard about what you are getting yourself in to. Consider for a moment whether you would marry a prostitute in your own country, or a 23 year old for that matter. Her family is clearly very poor, and I fear she, like many others, maybe simply see you as a pay day. Consider how different your lives have been and are currently. What do you have in common? Her education is probably very limited as most of these girls from poor families and do not finish high school.

      I don’t want to come off as judgmental or presumptuous, but you seem like a decent guy, and I think you should take your time to know more about her family, her history and what else may be going on in her life that you don’t know about.

      Right now she is very young and caught up in the bar scene, probably earning pretty good money for selling her body. She is only going to trade this income for something better, which means you will have to provide that better life. And by better life I don’t mean in terms of love, compassion and friendship, I mean material gain for her and her family.

      There are thousands of fantastic single women in Thailand; many financially independent and hardworking. Maybe take your time and look around a while.

      Reply

  65. Hi,
    I have a gf in bkk. She works and has big, big debts. Spends more then earns. She has a Uni degree, no parents ( they died long ago) and have 8 siblings. She is the youngest. She is 40 never married and no kids.
    She keeps asking me for money or items to buy or bills to pay. I pay for what she asks many time. I just stayed with her around 21 days in bkk.
    Now we are fiance and want to marry. She asked me for sin sod to be payed to her siblings, nieces and nephews.
    I got by surprise as I was not ware of this. I asked her to explain it to me and she gave me this URL.

    Reply

    • I’d consider carefully before marrying someone who has such big debts and keeps spending and spending. It sounds like you will be getting into a situation that will negatively impact your life long term. If her parents are dead then Sin Sod is not relevant. Perhaps a token Sin Sod to show at the wedding to appropriate the tradition would be nice for her, but Sin Sod is not due. However, if her grand parents bought her up in place of her parents, a Sin Sod would be applicable.

      Reply

  66. I think this article is off by implying that the sin sod amount is automatically kept by the woman’s family, in full — that would in fact be a dowry. My Thai girlfriend and other Thais have told me that sin sod is mainly a “show” of the man’s financial ability to take care of the woman and have a family. My gf told me that, if we were to marry, we would join forces to put down a “show” of however much we could pull together. Her parents would keep some, but we’d get most of it back. She comes from a modest Isaan background.

    An American friend also recently married a Thai woman and for them, the “show” included a title to the condo that he bought as a place for them to live several years before. There was a fair amount of cash put down on the floor at the ceremony, but they got most of it back after the wedding — and the woman comes from a poor family. Actually the man had been helping the woman’s family for some time, like 5,000 THB a month or something. And that’s another issue that wasn’t factored into this article… If the man has already give the family and/or woman large amounts of money over a long period of time prior to marriage, how does that factor into the sin sod?

    So I think that Thai women telling foreigners that they have to part with 1-2 million baht, permanently… I think that’s them taking advantage of the foreigner’s misunderstanding of what sin sod really is. Sin sod is basically proof that the man can take care of the woman. Yes some money is kept by the parents for the “mother’s milk” thing but it’s usually not anywhere close to the full sin sod amount. That’s my understanding.

    Reply

    • Hi Dave, did you read the article through? Historically that would have been the case, but I stated, and have stated in many comments in this thread, that it is common for an amount to be shown and then returned. The article outlines exactly what Sin Sod is from a traditional point of view, and how it was/is calculated based on Thailand’s social hierarchy system. Of course, traditions evolve with time and now things are done differently according to the couple’s/family opinions and wants.

      Reply

      • Yes, I read the article through (didn’t read all the comments, there are a lot!). It says that some families don’t expect sin sod but it just briefly mentions that “it is very rare that money isn’t shown at the wedding”… That’s the only mention that I can see of sin sod being a “show” of the man’s ability to take care of the woman. But I think that this notion of “show” gets to the root of what sin sod really is in modern Thailand.

        The article mentions a woman “commanding 100 million baht” and how “any man marrying a Thai woman must pay sin sod”… These statements are true but they should be accompanied by a clearer explanation that these “payments” don’t qualify as “payments” in the Western sens of the word, where someone puts down money and never sees it again. The 100 million baht was almost certainly not kept by the parents of the singer, but that isn’t clear in the article.

        I think that the biggest misconception of sin sod among foreigners is that it’s an actual payment, as in “poof,” it’s gone, but that’s not usually the case among Thai people. (That’s my understanding anyway; I’m not an expert.) I also think that some Thai women take advantage of this misconception by demanding large sums of money that would qualify as a dowry — never to be returned. And I think that this is the main aspect of sin sod that needs to be cleared up for foreigners.

        With that said, I think it’s a good article with a lot of good info.

        Reply

    • So this topic came up with me and my gf from Thailand as well. We are similar aged (late twenties), both of us are educated (uni) and she comes from a respectable Isaan family.

      As far as how i understood it from her the sin sod also goes back to “us”, or at least partly, and we’ll get a farmland. The amount of sin sod wasn’t important, it’s something she and I would decide depending on how much we could put on the table that day. I explained her it wouldn’t be much since i obviously didn’t prepare my whole life for this as we dont have this culture in the west. This wasn’t a problem at all.

      I think any guy being asked for a high sin sod (or other gifts) should really start wondering who they really are getting married with.

      Reply

  67. Most of you guys have your heads so far up your own asses no one can hear you speak! There is NO thai in this country who would want to marry “down”, yet that’s all foreigners seem to do here. Come here and marry a dark, dumb, 5th grade drop out from a one buffalo village in Nakhon Nowhere.. The thai guys are NOT jealous, they just can’t get their minds around why someone (who to them has money) would come here and marry a hill-billy, then proceed to buy land in their name, build houses in their name, give them a ‘salary’ to sit on their fat asses AND move them into a socio-economic segment of the society they are ill-equipped to interact in and deal with.

    Reply

    • Hey Tod, marrying down does happen. My wife’s sister married down. Her father permitted it based on the fact that he was a kind, hardworking guy. I have no interest in using wealth and education as assets to evaluate a person’s worth, but to flip your point on its head: what if a person sees all human beings as equal, and sees money, family lineage and material wealth as vacuous and a shallow, unintelligent way of evaluating a person’s worth?

      What if a person sees compassion, kindness and generosity as more reliable points of evaluation of a person’s worth; and friendship, companionship and love as more important assets in a relationship. In this case, such as person wouldn’t care less where a woman was born, how much money she had or what the small-minded village folk were saying about her.

      Sure, there are foreigners that make the mistake of falling for a young girl in a mini-skirt and high heels and throw all their money down the toilet to meet her demands, but this sure isn’t exclusive to Thailand; I’ve seen many a friend back home lose their mind, money and integrity over a woman. There are thousands of successful Thai-foreign relationships/marriages filled with fun, love and happiness, as there are in other countries too.

      I agree with you that the Thai guys are not jealous of an uneducated single mother from a poor family having an intimate relationship with a foreigner, but they may well be jealous of the lifestyle and experiences she acquires as a result.

      The times are a changing though. An increasing number of middle-class Thai women are going out with foreigners too. This has become massively noticeable in the last few years, particularly in Bangkok. Sure, the couples are usually around the same age, and being educated the women speak fairly good English, but gone are the days when only the stereotypical woman you describe in your comment has a foreign BF. In fact, three women I know date foreign teachers who earn less and are far poorer in monetary terms than they are.

      Reply

      • You are correct. My broad brushing was more than a little politically incorrect. However on the subject of sin-sod. I have never ever seen a thai guy pay a baht of it when marrying a “second-hand”, “gently-used” thai woman who has kids by a previous relationship. YET I know more foreigners than I can count who did just that. Also, almost to a person when the marriage is thai/thai all or a great portion of the sin-sod ion display s returned immediately after the dog-n-pony show event that comprises a thai wedding. It’s just for “show” (because these people are all consumed about gaining, getting, giving and doing anything to not “lose” the mythical beast know as “face”). The same cannot be said in most foreign/thai marriages.

        Reply

  68. What is an acceptable sin sod for a 26 year old girl with high school education who works in a bar, never been married and no children? Ok she is considered beautiful by normal standards but I would not say she is hard working.

    Reply

    • When you say works in a bar, do you mean she is a “working girl”, so to speak, or bar staff, as in serving drinks and food? If the former, the problem is, you couldn’t openly say to those attending your wedding that you aren’t paying sin sod or paying a small sin sod because she was a prostitute, as this would destroy her family’s reputation forever, and probably your relationship. So in this case I’d treat it as the latter – perhaps it is the latter (I don’t want to assume, that’s why I asked) – and say 100-150k. At the end of the day there are cultural guidelines, as detailed in the post, but each relationship is different. Some marriages have no sin sod, others just show money for the ceremony and take it back, some give the sin sod to the parents as a retirement/house-improving gift, some give a huge sin sod to reflect their wealth and show off their status in society.

      Reply

  69. It is true if you get marred to thai girl then divorce it’s 50/50 but if you buy house before get marred and the house in her name then you can’t get anything just make sure you marred first and if you want buy apartment if you buy in your name make sure you buy before being marred because if you buy after marry she can get half. If buy before marred she not In titled to any thing remember you should not pay any dowry marriage must be from love alone not money

    Reply

  70. Hello I am not sure if you have covered this request in your information as I did not read all your Qand A s.
    However if a Australian was to marry in Thailand does the same separation laws generally apply . Ie split of assets 50 /50 etc.
    I am planning to marry my Thai girlfriend of 3 years in Thailand however as I have been through divorce before with a Australian girl I am very concerned of this commitment and what implications legally could occur should the marriage fail.
    I understand you are not a divorce lawyer however a indication would help me .Kind Regards

    Reply

    • Hey Wesley, it’s quite straight forward actually: In the event of a divorce, Thai law views property in two ways: 1. Property acquired before the marriage (Sin Suan Tua). 2. Property acquired during the marriage (Sin Somros). Property that falls under Sin Somros will usually be split 50-50 by the courts, which is viewed as the most reasonable arrangement. If property claimed to be under Sin Suan Tua is disputed successfully, it will be considered Sin Somros. However, pre-nuptials are common and can be arranged through any reputable lawyer. Bear in mind that this applies to property/assets in Thailand, not assets acquired in your home country during the marriage; the court can’t rule on those.

      Reply

      • Hi

        Just like to say how useful I find your comments.

        I’ve met a Thai girl aged 35, she’s made no secret of the fact she’s had western bfs in the past. However she’s very keen to get married in the future (near future). She has mentioned sin-son and building a house – made it clear she doesn’t want to live in a condo ! Mmmm I wonder why ?

        My big worry is if we marry and it all goes wrong what if any claim would she have on my assets in the UK ?
        Can I protect these with a pre-nup ?

        Many thanks

        Bazza

        Reply

        • I’d be very cautious about rushing in, and certainly weary of any talk of building a house and sin sod so early on. I’d date a woman for at least a couple of years before getting into any talk like that. I hate to say it but this leans on the side of the type of woman foreigners often describe as those to steer clear of — e.g. those seeking a foreign man as a walking ATM. I could be wrong, and hope so, but please be cautious.

          A pre-nup won’t help on a house in Thailand because you won’t own the house she builds, on her land. You could buy a house that is part of a complex which offers foreign ownership, but I assume she is talking about building in her home town.

          Any assets you own in the UK are protected. She won’t have a claim to those. Read this post here though for some advice.

          Reply

    • Well, I’m going to let that last comment slide because it actually gave me a pretty good chuckle. And just to set the record straight I have never spent any more on Thai girlfriends than I have on American or Japanese girlfriends. Like I said before, I like strong independent women.

      Anyway I won’t say much more because, quite frankly, I don’t think it would be very sporting of me to engage in a battle of wits with an obviously unarmed person. But the bottom line is you insulted a bunch of people you don’t even know by calling them stupid and you needed to be called out on it. So now you just need to take your licks like a man and move on (and hopefully learn something).

      Reply

  73. I’m not saying I’m smarter I have lived in Thailand for 10 years when I meet my wife I was not looking I think guys are to quick to look for wife it’s all about love if you have girls that only with you for better life is not love if I die tomorrow my wife can look after her self it is hard to find the girls like that it took me 8 years before I find girl to marry my girl is Inlove with me that’s what you should be looking for is thai girl that loves you my girl I come first over her parents I’m no 1 if girl not put you first then you should run away as fast as you can as for paying family to help support them that’s ok if guys like that up to them lots guys just lazy to find the well educated girls who have good income and good family it is hard to get good educated girls because they work hard and not go out much all my wife friends are single they like to be in relationship so there’s lots good girls out there you just need to look

    Reply

  74. Hi first of pay no sin sod if you pay that you are more stupid then she is I think there is no smart guys who marry thai girls I’m marred to thai girl I payed no sin sod she payed half the wedding and we both pay half in our relationship all her money go to us she don’t send anything to her family her income and mine join together if you pay or support girl you have no brains

    Reply

    • Truth be told, I think that traditions like these are rather silly myself. Nevertheless I do NOT disrespect the beliefs of others. And I certainly do not call people “stupid” for choosing to go along with these traditions, because to do so, quite frankly, would make me a self-important jerk who thinks he is smarter than everyone else. And lets face it, based on your atrocious lack of English grammar skills you are not really in a position to be calling anyone stupid.

      Anyway, I will probably never have to worry about Sin Sod myself because I tend to be attracted to strong independent non-traditions girls. But that doesn’t mean that my future wife and I can’t make a mutual decision to do something nice for the parents, even if we both think it’s a little silly ourselves. And besides, the average Sin Sod of 300,000 Baht is only about the same as the cost of a very nice wedding dress here in the states – something that will be worn only once. And I have had girlfriends in Japan who paid the equivalent of more than $10,000 for their Kimonos. And they will only wear these a few times in their lives. So, in the grand scheme of things Sin Sod is not really that outrageously expensive.

      I think the problem here is that you are one of those people who needs to feel like they are more savvy than everyone else. I see this sort of thing all the time on Internet discussion boards. For example people will claim that a particular photo is photo shopped or a particular story is bogus. Of course they are wrong half of the time because, rather than having any actual skills at identifying these types of things, they are just so cynical that they tend to think everything is bogus. Also they have this compulsive need to let the world know that they spotted the supposed ploy before anyone else and are therefore very street smart savvy people while everyone else is gullible and stupid. And they often need to put others down in order to feel good about themselves.

      As for you not having to support your wife at all, and her not sending money home, that is just a matter of you getting lucky – nothing more, nothing less. Your girlfriend’s family is either wealthy enough to take care of themselves or she is completely estranged from her family. Anyway, if a person should choose to marry a girl from a dirt poor family there is nothing wrong with him helping out her family. And in many cases you can support them for less than what you pay for your cable TV bill back home. What kind of heartless idiot is too cheap to cough up that paltry amount every month in order to help out his wife’s family? But, like I said before, this is all about you needing to feel like you are smarter than everyone else.

      Reply

  75. I am due to marry in February next year and we have agreed to do a show sinsord of 200-250000baht or we might do it as £4000-5000. The question I ask is, as this will go back in the UK account, whats the best way of bringing the money or withdrawing the money in Thailand? We have concluded to show in £ but are obviously anxious about bringing that much cash on the 2 16hr journeys to and from Thailand. Any advice?

    Reply

    • Hey Ross, the best way is a transfer into a Thai bank account and then withdraw it a day or so before the ceremony. If your ceremony is on a working day, arrange with the local branch to collect it in the morning. If not, most decent hotels have safety deposit boxes where you keep the only key, so that’s one possible place to keep it safe. In regards to the transfer, check out my post on Transfer wise here. I’m using this service and you can save a lot on transfer and exchange rate fees.

      Reply

    • I have put my sin sod (as Euro bills) in my cabin luggage.
      No one knew, and I had an eye on it the whole flight.

      And I changed it at Superrich in the basement of Suvarnabhumi airport. They have great exchange rates for both buying and selling Thai Baht.

      Reply

  76. I met my Thai gf on line and I am on my second visit to Thailand. I purchased an engagement ring and of course now face the ominous task of of blending cultures and sorting out sin-sod.

    My gf tells me that many have paid 1 to 2 million in sin-sod and paid it with gold and money during the engagement.

    She just turned 35, graduated with a degree in agriculture and works as a secretary in Bangkok. She is unmarried and has no children. I am much older. Her family comes from a country farm and older brothers and sisters provide support.

    I was unaware that the presentation of sin-sod was to be done at engagement?

    Is is necessary for gold to be presented at the engagement? Or money? or both?

    Would 300,000 baht be a fair offer that would not result in the family losing face?

    This article and column have been very helpful in addressing a very complex and emotional topic.

    Reply

    • The presentation of sin sod is generally done at the wedding, but it depends on whether the engagement and wedding are done on the same or separate days. Some do the engagement in the morning and the wedding in the afternoon nowadays. If the engagement is done on a separate day, gifts such as gold are usually given. Have a read of this comprehensive guide to a traditional Thai wedding Personally I’d look at combining the two on the same day and giving some gold along with the sin sod.

      I’d say 300k is about right, considering she graduated with a good degree, hasn’t been married before and has no kids. If she were to marry a Thai of similar status, it would be between 200-300k, in my experience.

      As I’ve said before, don’t get drawn into letting your GF suggest/dictate what the amount should be or what is expected. It isn’t up to her, it is up to her parents. I would suggest you meet with them and first tell them that you’d like to marry their daughter and ask for their blessing. Then bring up sin sod.

      Unless you are a rich man and can afford to, don’t hand over 1-2MB. If they want to show 1MB and give it back to you, that’s fine. If you want to give them this sort of money as a gift, and you can afford it, then I strongly suggest having a money management strategy in place. I don’t know your GF’s family, and they may be very good with money, but there is many a story of money being squandered with nothing to show for it, not to mention relatives sniffing around for handouts.

      Lastly, you are probably hearing this from a fair few people, but have you thought about dating for a little longer? This is only your second trip. I know you’ve been having a long distance relationship online, but it would be sensible to spend a considerable amount of time in Thailand getting to know the your GF and her family on Thai turf before making this big commitment, and paying the associated wedding costs.

      Reply

    • I just had to chime in here and I have to say I’m in 100% agreement with TTL’s final comments. I mean, why on earth would you want to marry someone, either in Thailand or in your own country, whom you had spent so little time with? Unless you have been in Thailand for many, many months on this latest visit you can’t possible know each other well enough to be considering marriage. Also I would like to point out that for most western men it takes much longer to truly know a Thai woman than it does an American women. And this is doubly true if you do not speak each other’s native language very well.

      So just what exactly is the rush? After all, if you are planning to move to Thailand permanently then you can just live together for 6-months or so before you tie the knot. You really need to live with someone to find out all the things that bug you about each other. And if you are an American and are planning to bring her back here then I believe it is actually easier to get her in on a fiancé visa than it is to get her in as your existing wife. Also with the finance visa you have either 3 or 6 months (cant remember which) before you have to get married once in the country. This gives you plenty of time to get to know each other and possibly change your mind if things do not pan out. Also it gives you time to see how well she is adjusting to life in your country. You see, unlike the Philippines where pretty much every girl wants to relocate to a western country, most Thai women would much prefer to remain in Thailand with their western husbands or boyfriends. And many just don’t adjust well to life in other countries.

      Anyway, wouldn’t you rather know all this before getting married? So again I ask: what’s the rush? After all I’ve never known a Thai women to withhold sex until after marriage like some Christian women do. And if she did, or was just generally in a rush to get married, I would be very suspicious of her underlying motives. On the other hand of course, at 35 I’m guessing that her biological clock is really ticking and this may be her last chance to get married.

      It’s your life of course, and your decision to make, but I have to say, I just don’t get it. I will tell you something that I tell everyone, everywhere, who is contemplating marriage. Basically, if you are with the right person you are going to stay together for a very long time, married or not. And if it’s the wrong person it will soon fall apart, married or not. The only difference is that breakups are much more destructive, both financially and emotionally, when one is married. Every relationship has a finite life span, and that life span is pretty much the same whether you are married or not.

      Reply

      • I so appreciate both of your comments, especially while I am in the process of living this in vivo.

        I knew there was the element of Sin Sod, but guess I wasn’t prepared to deliver it all at engagement. We both regret that we didn’t communicate about it over the many months we have known each other.

        We are planning to initiate the K-1 and I am fortunate that my intended fiance’ is willing and motivated to relocate to the US.
        I had a totally positive and delightful visit with the family and the extended family in the farming village and they remind me of my family of origin roots in the Midwest.

        My confusion came from her comments about 1-2 million baht as a Sin-sod. I am starting to put the pieces together tho. She lived with a wealthy business man for a couple of years and they were engaged, but never followed through with marriage. He left and returned to the US. Perhaps he provided a robust engagement Sin-Sod and she feels her parents would expect me to do the same or more, in as much as I am a professional.

        I am encouraged by the meeting with family and again I thank you for your good guidance.

        All of this has been a good mind check and has both of us slowing down and planning in a more effective and less emotionally driven way.

        I fully agree that a chance for her to visit the US for a couple of weeks is in order, followed by a long stay after the K1 approval comes through (90 days). Very prudent for both of us.

        It is so much easier to wade into the pool, than jump into the deep end and find oneself drowning.

        Reply

  77. Wow. Great Blog. Wish I had read this a few years back.

    Anyways, I met a Thai girl for 3 months last year and we kept in touch via Skype. She said she was from Samoeng and that her family was poor. Ok, I get it. I was trying to teach her English in my spare time, but she has a real mental block (although she can write in English ‘mini-letters’). Anyway, when I was back in the States we talked about me coming back to Thailand and living together. Definitely, a few red flags came up during that time. They were: 1) Her still being on a dating website every week; 2) Asking for a million baht to start a store; 3) Saying she needed money for this and that, and obviously, I could sense there was a lack of truth in what she was telling me.

    In short, I told her I wasn’t ‘a walking ATM machine’ and her words then were: “I will stop this evil.’

    To be honest, this situation is much more multidimensional then I can write here. To be fair to her, she has refused my money on more than several occasions, too, and has de-emphasized it.

    To make a longer story — even more short, she wound up pregnant and we just had a baby together. Obviously, now the situation is a lot more complicated. I want to take care of the baby, but if she doesn’t start speaking English (as I only speak functional Thai, at best) this marriage-to-be won’t work –as I’ve repeatedly told her. We used to talk for 30 minutes a day but when we have lived together for the past week or so she rarely speaks to me now that she’s busy with the baby.

    In regards to the baby, I’ve named him Dante and what frustrates me is that she and her mother rarely use his real name, if at all. As others on this blog have noted, you don’t marry and start a family, but you marry her family as well, as the mother-in-law is sleeping in the same bedroom as we take care of our newborn.

    I’m afraid now my son will just speak Thai and Karen and his mother and their tribe will be much more dominant in his life than I will ever be unless I take him back to the U.S.

    I haven’t been hit up for Sin Sod and I guess if you read this you might conclude that I lack ‘logic’ or a ‘reality check’. But to the contrary, I have always been a level headed guy, and simply thought that things would work out between the both of us. Perhaps, the genuine truth is an amalgamation of the good and the bad, and they can’t be separated so easily.

    And to make things even more complicated, I do love her and in her way, she does love me as we have spent a lot of quality time together. I trust that she hasn’t cheated on me. But she probably has looked at me as a way to step up in the world although she seemed genuinely happy if I lived for a long time in her village, which I am not ready to do at all.

    Constructive comments are welcomed — ‘the snarky need not apply’.

    Reply

    • If you had asked a year ago I definitely would have had some advice for you. At this point however you have gotten yourself in so deep that it seems like you are way past the point of advice and that you are just going to have to see how things play out.

      As for your kid learning English I would not worry too much about that. That is, assuming you and your girlfriend stay together and he lives with both of you. Children who have multi-lingual parents pretty much always pick up both languages. Also when Americans have children in Thailand or other foreign countries they almost always enroll them in international schools where they will be around other kids who also speak English. I’m sure they probably have such schools in Chiang Mai, which is where you and your girlfriend should be living anyway. It’s still close to the in-laws but not so close that they will be in your face all the time. And personally – although I’m very much a give and take kind of guy – I never let a women dictate how and where we are going to live our lives. And any woman who is not independent enough to live separately from her parents would not be the kind of person I would be with in the first place.

      As far as your girlfriend learning English is concerned I have a feeling that the only way this will happen is if you take her back to the States where she will be immersed in the Language. Of course it could take many, many years to get her in. And even if she does learn English you might just find that the two of you still have some serious communication problems that have nothing to do with language.

      Reply

      • Oh, and one more thing. I would not worry too much about what they are calling your son. Pretty much every Thai woman I’ve ever met has a nickname and I imagine it’s the same with boys. So even if you had given your son a Thai name they might still be calling him by a different name. In other words, I don’t think your girlfriend and her mother are trying to undermine your authority as the dad by not using the kids given name. Of course the author of this site knows much more than I do about these sorts of things and he can probably tell you for sure.

        Reply

    • To echo what Ken said: I think to give your relationship a proper chance you need to move away together, be it to a nearby city or back to the states. It wasn’t clear whether you are living in the village now together or you are just visiting. Anyway, small things like the baby being called by names other than his birth name are already annoying you, and there will no doubt be other cultural differences that will get to you going forward. If your GF moves away with you and is immersed in your culture and learning the language, she will no doubt see the benefits for your son and want him to continue leading that new life.

      At the end of the day, it seems like you kind of fell into this situation without a plan, which is life, sometimes. While it may not be ideal, the massive positive is your son, so focus on doing what’s best for him, which is undoubtedly giving him the most secure, loving upbringing possible, and of course the best education you can provide. There are lots of great schools in cities like Chiang Mai, which I’m assuming is the closest big city to her village. Or, if you need to be in the states to earn a good salary, make plans with your GF to return there.

      The only potential problem you have is if things don’t work out between you and your GF wants to live in her village with your son. She is the mother and it would be unreasonable to consider separating them, and you’d have trouble doing so anyway. That said, anyone who gets involved with a woman from another country faces this potential issue.

      Reply

  78. Use negotiating skills. It’s a show of how fiscally secure you are. Thais respect those who can negotiate properly. Ultimately, the higher the sinsot to her parents, the less money you have to take care of the daughter.

    Reply

  79. Great article and thread TTL
    I need some advice.
    I’ve been with a gf for past year and a half and we want to get married. She’s 31, never married /had bf before/, no kids, holds bachelor’s degree. She comes from a small Karen hill tribe, farming village in northern Thailand and is Catholic /as the whole village is/. I’m 40, teacher. I met her family once, they seem down to earth, hardworking people. Now, every time I ask her for sin sod she changes the subject or says I should discuss it with her family, which I believe is a good sign. The problem is I have no idea how much should I pay. I know that when her 5 years younger sister /no education/ got married to a Thai man he had paid 100k. Any ideas on how much I would be expected to give? Don’t know if that’s relevant but previously my gf was working for The Royal Project but she didn’t really like it so she opened a small mushroom farm in her village. I was happy to pay for it 100k + another 100k within next few months to buy some equipment and expand the business. The farm is on her family’s land.
    Thanks, namplaa

    Reply

    • Hi Naamplaa, your GF is absolutely correct in that this is something you need to discuss with her parents. Indeed, this is a good sign: As I have said before, traditionally, it is not up to the lady to stipulate the amount; it is for the groom’s parents to discuss with the bride’s parents or the groom, depending on the situation.

      Some would say that since you have contributed to the family business you should not have to pay a sin sod or should pay a smaller amount, but again I must reiterate that this type of gift cannot suddenly be linked to sin sod and used as some sort of bargaining tool.

      If we are to strictly adhere to the traditional way of accessing sin sod, in this case I would say not more than 200k. If you look at her sister’s situation and work upwards from there, taking into account the fact that your GF has no kids, has not been married before, was a virgin (presumably because of no previous BF) and has a degree, and factor in family/societal status, this amount makes sense.

      Reply

  80. Need some advice.

    I met my Thai wife in a western country when she was studying here. We also live in the same western country. I paid all the Spenser for our Western wedding several years ago. We both work but I earn considerably more than her because she works part time only so I pay all the bills and living expenses for both of us including an annual trip to Thailand and other overseas trips occasionally. She gets to keep all the money she makes from her part time work. We have no children and I am told I am the only boyfriend she had before we married. She is in her early 30s and holds a bachelors degree, her family are middle class Thais who work in Bangkok and with homes in Bangkok and Chiangmai. They own successful businesses and the father is a well respected and high ranking professional.

    Recently my wife asked if we could have a Thai style wedding. This is something that we had discussed since the start of our relationship and I was aware of the sin sot tradition which does not sit well with me. My wife stated that the wedding would cost 10,000 $ and that in consideration of my feelings re. Sin sot if I would pay the $10,000 for the wedding she would use her savings to buy gold for the sin sot and that her mum would also contribute some cash for show at the wedding in lieu of sin sot.

    So far so good. I agreed, thinking it would be nice for my wife and her family to be able to enjoy seeing us renew our vows in a traditional Thai wedding (even though we are already legally married and have been for several years.)

    Arrangements are underway and over 100 guests have already been invited to the wedding which is to be held in Thailand towards the end of the year.

    Yesterday my wife asks if I would also withdraw 30,000$ in cash on top of the 10,000$ already budgeted for the wedding and take this to Thailand to show at the wedding as sin sot with the understanding this cash will be returned to me after the wedding. I said no. There are so many reasons that I can’t even begin to list here including security of the money (risk of loss or theft), limits on how much cash can be carried internationally etc. Above all else if this money were to be lost for any reason it would be a major blow to me financially. It has taken me many years to accumulate a nest egg and we need that to provide financial security for myself and my wife. Taking it all out in cash half way around the world just to flash it around to “have face” in the hope it will come safely back again is just lunacy in my view and I told my wife so.

    So how my wife and I who have always been so happily married for years are hardly talking to each other and I’m left wishing I’d never agreed to a Thai style wedding in the first place. I
    This is not the deal I agreed to. It was to be $10,000 and sure I understand the budget can creep up a bit. But another $30,000 cash on the promise “don’t worry darling mum and dad will give you back after the wedding.” It would take me years to save that money again with the cost of living in my country.

    I’m already proving every single day that I can look after my wife well – she has everything she needs and doesn’t have to pay for anything at all, no bills, nothing. Am I being unreasonable here?

    I’ve offered to produce a bank statement at the wedding to show how much money we have together if it’s really about proving I have the means to care for my wife financially. We could show that at the wedding instead img of taking tens of thousands of dollars in cash half way around the world. That suggestion went down like a lead balloon – a flat out no.

    Similarly I got a flat out no to the suggestion that the family use the $10,000 as a sin sot and pay for the wedding costs since in my culture the parents of the bride traditionally pay for the wedding. We would be meeting half way and respecting each other’s cultures if this suggestion were accepted. Once again flat out no.

    What should I do? I can feel the hostility palpably whenever I am near my wife and until now we have always been happy. But there is no way I am willing to carry that money around the world in cash, nor am I willing to transfer it to a Thai bank account where anything could happen to it. I worked too hard for that money and it is our security, which is supposedly exactly what the sin sot was supposed to be about in the first place!

    Any advice anyone because presently I feel like running away from my wife and becoming a monk. I’m not joking.

    Reply

    • I am by no means an expert on Sin Sod, or Thai marriage customs in general, but I do know about people and relationships and it sounds to me like you have more of a general relationship issue than a cultural one. Basically it sounds like you married someone that you did not know nearly as well as you thought you did. And the two of you just don’t seem to have the level of communication, mutual understanding, and trust that two people should always have before they even consider getting married.

      For example you do not seem to trust her when she says that her parents will definitely return the money to you. But the bottom line is, she should know her parents well enough to make that call, and you should know her well enough to trust her judgement on the matter.

      And as for her part she seems to be unwilling to try and see things from your point of view or to compromise at all on things that are really important to her (or to her parents in this case). But this is nothing new. Unfortunately many Thai women have a mentality and a temperament which is very similar to that of a small child. In other words they are sweet as can be as long as everything is going their way but the moment they do not, you have a big problem on your hands. And rather than talking it out rationally they will often just pout and get pissy or sometimes just cut the communication lines completely. And girls like yours definitely do not want to disappoint their parents and they certainly are not capable of standing up to them.

      Also you have to remember that marriage in Thailand today is not all that different than is was in the West back in Jane Austin’s day. Back then financial viability was much more important than love and women from poor families had to marry a man who could support her family. And even the wealthy upper class types (like yours) would only let their sons and daughters marry someone from another prestigious family in order to give their own family even more social status. Heck, even royalty often married for political reasons rather than personal ones. Of course this does not mean that these couple sometimes did not also love each other. And Thai wives certainly also love their Farang husbands in many cases.

      But unfortunately I’m afraid even love is not enough to sustain a long lasting relationship. For any relationship to work a couple has to not only be compatible emotionally and physically (sexually) but intellectually and psychologically as well. And its extremely rare to find a Western/Thai couple that is compatible in these last two categories.

      You’ll notice by the way that I did not mention cultural compatibility and this is because cultural compatibility is merely a sub component of psychological compatibility. In other words it’s our psychological makeup which determines how strictly we adhere to tradition and social conventions (how seriously we take these thing). It is also true that as societies mature and evolve over time these cultural traditions become less and less important in general to that society. In fact, given enough time, even women in the Middle East will be equal to men and religious fundamentalism will be a thing of the past.

      In the meantime however, dating someone from a culture that is at a different point on this evolutionary scale than your own is bound to be fraught with pit falls. Especially when you consider the fact that the huge majority of people are, to a greater or lesser degree, a product of their environments.

      Anyway if I were you I would just cough up the money and stop worrying so much about it (I’m sure you can find a safe way to get it there). That is unless you think your wife is some kind of con-women who only married you to cheat you out of your life savings (kind of an absurd notion). And if something should happen to the money just tell your wife that she now needs to contribute most of her salary to making up that loss. Even working part time it would probably take her less than 5 years to save up the $30,000 since you are paying all the living expenses.

      Or you could always just divorce her and marry some poor Issan girl and then you would not have to worry about such a large Sin Sod. But is that really what you want? The bottom line is, if you want to be married to an educated high-class Thai women then you have to be willing to fork over the dough.

      Reply

      • A fair answer, in particular your comment:

        Also you have to remember that marriage in Thailand today is not all that different than is was in the West back in Jane Austin’s day. Back then financial viability was much more important than love and women from poor families had to marry a man who could support her family. And even the wealthy upper class types (like yours) would only let their sons and daughters marry someone from another prestigious family in order to give their own family even more social status

        I’d add to this that in the upper echelons of British society, and in many other countries around the world, this is still the case.

        You also noted:

        For any relationship to work a couple has to not only be compatible emotionally and physically (sexually) but intellectually and psychologically as well. And its extremely rare to find a Western/Thai couple that is compatible in these last two categories.

        I’d add here that this is quite rare to find in any country. Can you have it all? I’m not so sure. Most of us will be lucky just to find someone loyal, honest and kind. Is that enough? Perhaps, depending on where you are at in your life. All relationships require an on-going investment of time, understanding and compassion. Great sex, or at least one’s interest in sex with their partner, more often than not wanes over time, so it’s important to be best friends too – as this will be what keeps you together in old age. Our opinions, intellect and emotions evolve with age. For many this means growing apart, while others find ways to satisfy different aspects of their personality through friendships outside of the marriage, hobbies, clubs, etc.

        Reply

        • Yes, you are absolutely correct when you say it is also rare in any country. In fact I almost wrote that very thing but then got too lazy and left it out. I also completely agree with everything else you said, particularly about people changing and evolving over time and not always in the same direction. Its really uncanny how we seem to be on the exact same wavelength here.

          Anyway, as far as Thai/Farang relationships go I have never tried to discourage them. In fact, I remember I once wrote a rebuttal on another site to all the naysayers who were saying its stupid to marry a Thai woman. Basically I said that even here in the USA the average marriage last less than two years and that we could probably all just draw names out of hat to find our wives and beat those odds. So with those abysmal marriage statistics how can you say someone is asking for trouble by marrying a Thai woman? How could we do any worse than we already are after all? Also, I have a friend here who has been married to a Thai women for over 20 years. Thats longer than any other couple I know.

          Reply

  81. I am planning to ask my Thai girlfriend to marry me. So as I’m sure most people here have, I have spent many a free moment researching sin sot and Thai tradition surrounding it. Only to remain pretty confused (this post did help me understand the reasons behind it a little more. Others saw it from a more aggressive point of view) Anyway my question is like others, how much should I expect to offer? Myself and my girlfriend have spoken about her past relationships and one in particular. Her ex (Thai) asked to marry her and was asked for 200,000 baht and gold (khong man). At the time she was studying and working. Since then however she has dropped out of school and has no degree and also hasn’t been working for a while. Would this change things at all? Or should I expect to be asked for the same or even more because I am farang? Any help would be greatly appreciated.
    To add her ex did not want to pay and so did not marry her in the end so she has never been married
    Thanks

    Reply

    • Hi Richard, being a foreigner doesn’t/shouldn’t change the amount. However, note that a wealthy Thai man would always take the opportunity of sin sod to show off his wealth, so in this respect, when a Thai woman marries a wealthy man, it is the norm for a big sin sod to be involved. However, wealthy Thai men usually marry into wealthy Thai families, and vice versa. Though there are exceptions, of course. This is where the expecation for a foreigner to pay a higher sin sod than the average Thai man comes from; because of the presumed higher wealth.

      To answer the question, 200k is about right. Most Thai weddings between average Thais are somewhere around this mark today.

      Reply

    • May I also add to TTL’s comments above that while 200k might be about right for a modern Thai wedding, if any of the above it makes you uncomfortable you should have a good think about what you’re in for.

      I met my Thai ex-wife in my Western home country while she was studying and working. Despite coming from a wealthy family and having parents living the high life, there was constant pressure from her to send money to them. Constant requests to buy things and send them to Thailand for her mother to give away to show off to their friends (lots of face to be gained with gifts of Western face creams, apparently). I’m anti-face even by Western standards, and was constantly confronted by it.

      I wasn’t getting scammed, her brothers were sending more money home than she was. She also earned more than she ever gave, but you don’t have the spending/investing power of a couple when one person is paying for another person’s luxuries.

      I wasn’t comfortable with it all and it caused huge fractures. As time went by her family felt more and more like a boat anchor. And this is from a family where I was directly told that there was to be no Sin Sod at the wedding (except the one they faked, for face). We made about 300,000 Thai baht on the wedding day, profit after expenses. Generous, fun, happy, welcoming family, but nevertheless a THAI family, with values and ideas of family very different to mine.

      You don’t start a family with a Thai girl, you join the family of a Thai girl. Make sure that’s really for you before you commit to it, because it doesn’t all end with Sin Sod, they’re for life.

      Reply

      • Thanks for sharing that Richie. I’ve heard similar things from a few guys married who married into well-to-do families. One thing I’d add is that this “face” thing is the same in other cultures too. I’ve heard the same about Chinese culture, Indian culture, Iranian culture and others.

        Reply

  82. My Thai Fiancee and I are planning to get married shortly and I don’t want to be a farang kee nok, but I am already paying for her Visa to the US, which will cost me about $5k to $10k and I am curious about the amount of Sin Sod. She has already been married, has one adult child and is in her early 40’s. I read that because of that, I shouldn’t have to pay a Sin Sod, However, the last thing I would want to do is make her lose face, she is going to be my wife after all. But being Thai, she of course will not offer a hint to the amount and being a farang in the US, I am clueless. Should I offer something like 150,000 Baht? Or would that be insulting? Any suggestions? Thanks, Michael

    Reply

    • The rule that sin sod is not applicable on a second marriage is an urban myth, though certainly, unless the woman is famous or from a well-to-do family, it will usually be less than the first marriage. I know a Thai woman who has been married twice, to Thai men, and sin sod was presented at the second wedding.

      One thing that is clear about this tradition is that the amount is to be decided between the parents of the two families. It is not for the daughter to decide this matter. Many foreigners find themselves being dictated to by their GF, when in fact the GF does not have the say in this. If your parents are unable to discuss this with her family, then you should discuss this with her parents. Whatever they accept from you will be the amount, regardless of what your GF thinks.

      I understand you are laying out a lot for the visa, but culturally this would not be seen as part of the sin sod or as something that in some way offsets the agreed amount.The reason being that this money cannot be invested by the family or for your GFs future, though any sensible person could see that this is an investment in her future, which will benefit her even if you divorce because she will most likely be able to stay in the US. Other foreigners often find themselves in the same boat, having already paid for expensive things for the family and GF and then expected to pay sin sod.

      The first thing I would establish is whether they are seeking to keep the sin sod or simply show it for face at the wedding. As I have said previously, it is very common now for an amount to be shown and then a small percentage of this amount to be gifted to the family.

      At the end of the day, whatever the outcome of the discussion, don’t pay more than you can comfortably afford to, if that is they are seeking to keep the money.

      Reply

      • Thank you for your answer, I will take heed of your advice. I wouldn’t want either my fiancee or her family to lose face, but on the same note I don’t want to break the bank either. I just want to be fair and not be a farang kee nok. Thanks again, Michael

        Reply

  83. Hi there.. Me and my gf. are getting married soon. So the talk about Sin Sod came up.. I already knew about this, but not enough.. Thanks for this article..

    I will talk with her parents about the amount they are expecting. But would like to hear what kind of amount you would expect. So here is a little background about my gf..

    She is 24 years old. Never married before, and no kids. Have a bachelor in “Environmental Science” Right now she works at a hotel. Earning between 15.000-20.000 baht per month.

    She comes from a respected family. Her father is the leader/village head of the famous “floating Island” or “Panyee Island” in South Thailand.. Not so far from Phuket. Before him, her grandfather was the leader.

    On her fathers side, the family is rich. He owns a lot of land, and runs a rubber plantation. But her mother comes from a poor background.

    I would also add that they are Muslim.

    I hope that was enough information.. I really appreciate you help..
    Thank you very much..

    Best regards Andy ..

    Reply

    • Hi Andy, I have no experience of the Thai-Muslim traditions; I would have thought the wedding ceremony differed in many ways because of the religious affiliation. But based on what you say, I would think her family will expect sin sod of anywhere between 300k-1M THB. It’s hard for me to speculate, but even average earning Thais from relatively poor backgrounds seldom have sin sod under the 150-200k mark these days. Because your GF is educated to university level and is not from a poor family, it will most certainly be over 300k. Do remember that many families like to show more than what is gifted (it’s a face thing). Since her father is well off, he may just agree an amount to show (probably around the 1M TB mark) that is returned to you in full.

      Reply

  84. hi

    my thai gf and I have been together for 3.5 years and its time to marry. She is from a small village near Nong Kai

    She was married to a foreign guy for 5 years and lived with him in the UK, thy have a son who lives with the father in the UK. We have been over to see him a few times I paid every time.

    She has a good job as a manager earning about 30,000 per month, i got her the job

    How much should I suggest paying to her family? i know the first guy bought them a farm, her a home and gave her a bit of money when they finished but i do not know what the sin sod was

    any ideas what i should be offering?

    thanks

    Reply

    • If you are going by the rule (tradition) book on this I’d say no where near what you would expect to pay if she hadn’t been married before and didn’t have kids. Then again, it depends on a number of other social factors such as family name and level on the social scale, and her level of education. A lot of second marriages don’t have a big sin sod, more just something to show as part of the ceremony. In my opinion, since she has been there and done it before, I’d discuss it between the two of you and, if you plan on having a traditional wedding, just agree to show something that is given back afterwards. It sounds like she is quids in after her last marriage, so her/her family aren’t in need of demanding a huge sum. What I would say is read up on this tradition to arm yourself with the facts. Foreigners have been known to be taken for a ride on this matter.

      Reply

      • hi

        thanks for reply

        to answer your question her family were poor until she married the first guy, they still live in a very small farming village 40 mins drive from Nong kai

        she educated Khon Kaen university

        i have already given her parents over 150,000 thb to buy rubber trees for the farm

        i have bought cars, motorbikes and fully furnished the house

        im happy to follow culture and offer something i was thinking 50-100,000 baht but her mother is greedy and will ask for a lot more

        can you give me an estimate figure so i have some idea

        thanks for the help

        Reply

        • Do not give anything. You’ve given a lot already. Thai wedding ceremony is not legal marriage. Make her choose between you and her family.

          My Thai woman, also university grad and she had worked as a manager for 20 years, have chosen. However, her mother is not asking for anything. Because family is not poor, we will show 400,000BHT sin sod and gold. All is coming back to us.

          Reply

  85. I also read “Where poorer families are concerned, Sin Sod is a repayment for the money invested in their daughter. Many families sell land, borrow money and generally go without to put their kids through university, or in some cases to simply put food on the table. The Sin Sod is essentially a repayment for that investment. The amount paid for Sin Sod could be considered relative to the sacrificial cost of bringing up the child – thus the reason it is often referred to as payment for the “mother’s milk”.”

    So anyone can explain me why just families of daughter need to get back some money of their investment? If you have son you will get back nothing and you also will asked to help him to pay family of future wife. But also if you have son you pay a lot for take care him until he marry. So I’m confused about this meaning of tradition.

    Reply

    • Yes, this is true. The idea is that parents invest time and money and sacrifice their own lives to make their daughter the best she can be,to be an appealing marriage prospect to a man from a decent family – thus the amount paid reflects the achievements and status of the daughter. And so the sin sod is a repayment for this investment, and the money will help provide for the parents as they age and after the daughter has left the family home. There is also the fact that the onus, particularly in rural families, is on the daughter to support her ageing parents, not the son(s), who as most will attest get away with what they want and are generally spoilt. When a woman gets married, she may no longer be working due to becoming a mother, and therefore will not be able to contribute to the support of the family home and her ageing parents. So the sin sod also helps with this. Also consider that if the couple split up, the man will usually be able to go on working throughout his life, whereas the woman will more than likely left with children to support, which makes it difficult to work. There is no child support agency here that makes men pay for their children, no one to make them accountable for their offspring and send them to prison or fine them for not supporting. Men regularly have children with a woman, only to leave them for another woman and do the same again. The women are left with no one to provide for their children; thus the fact that approx 95%+ of women working as prostitutes have children to care for who are left with their parents, whom they also have to support. In fact, one might go as far as to say that the sex industry acts as a welfare state, particularly in that many foreigners end up supporting these women financially. So if the man walks out and leaves the woman on her own with kids, if the family has saved the sin sod / invested it wisely, they will have this to fall back on while they find their feet.

      Reply

          • I’m just trying to have a serious answer and no contradictions. It ‘s not true that the sin sod is for repaying the bride for economic efforts made to educate her family, in fact, when the family is rich and would not need any dowry usually ask more money. And I stil, wait to know why if you have only son and not daughter nobody care about your economic problems. Don’t talk to me about sex business, I don’t need to confuse that with thai tradition.

            Reply

            • If I believe about your meaning, if example you have 3 sons and no daughters it’s big disaster. You will pay to give them education and you will get back nothing from them (you said only lady normally send money to family). And after that you will also asked to pay for they can marry some lady. Very big disaster !!! How is possible? Is this real meaning of tradition?

              Reply

  86. Sin sod is thai tradition, then if thai lady marry with thai man can have a reason to follow this tradition but if thai lady marry western man traditions are not same, so it’s very stupid if somebody think some tradition is important more than another one. Personally I’m not interest to marry anyone for money, and I know many thai lady understand and agree that, and many parents will not ask anymore money from husband, they only worry daughter can marry really good guy.

    Reply

    • I do agree with you.

      In Thailand, a foreigner is discriminated in several ways. It is quite difficult to have a real social life with thai people. Contrary to many other countries.
      So, let’s still be farangs, and not pay this SinSod.

      Reply

  87. Been here for a few years. The best thing I did was not hook up fast. Just look around and have fun.
    Second sin sod is a joke period. I have been in a few relationships where the family ruled my gf. MONEY is the only thing they are after. I cut them loose pretty fast.
    You need to remember there are thousands of women here looking. Do not settle and do not pay the sin sod. Find a good looking gal that is willing to look after you and give her an allowance. If she makes noise cut her loose.
    I have one now I pay nothing to except an allowance. She is 50 years old has a great body and good in bed. A keeper.
    Screw the gold diggers and leave the bar girls alone.

    Reply

    • I couldn’t say it better Gary, i quote everything, only if you are blind you can accept such a medieval aspect of thai culture, we “farang” are civilized people, but of course if you are subservient to your thai wife/girlfriend you can join them and let them suck your blood ’till they drain you…It’s a shame that civilized people support those ancient rites that are so far from our culture, what’s worth for?

      Reply

      • Peter, what civilized country are you from? So..there are no married to money “civilized” people in your country? no thousands (tens and hundreds of) of dollars thrown for show off items like diamond rings and wedding receptions? no prenuptial agreements? no men’s lives ruined in divorces (or by mistresses) and men punished for harassment that they never did?

        ‘Civilized’ countries have their way to show off in marriages, other prefer traditional ways. I agree with you 100% that you should not let not only ‘them’ but anyone else, ‘suck your blood ’till they drain you’. Just do not marry if you feel this way. Gary bought good mistress, well…in my opinion, nothing wrong with his playboy’s life. He can’t afford to buy mistress in ‘civilized’ country? It’s OK by me, no judging.

        As I mentioned in my other post, this blog, I think, is for people who want long-time partner, family, kids…. They want to know how to deal with marriage in Thailand, not to know how to have financially safe sex (they know this already:). This is Thailand, they traditionally do Sin Sod. All my gal’s married relatives did and, in all known to me cases money have been returned to newlyweds.

        Most of Thai men wear shirts and pants when go out. Not like those fat sweaty farangs on the streets of Pattaya wearing just ugly wavy trunks. Are these farangs civilized? Not in my view…

        Reply

        • “As I mentioned in my other post, this blog, I think, is for people who want long-time partner, family, kids….” Perfect, i am in a relationship with a Thai woman since 6 years i have never paid 1 baht to her family, she has never asked me to to pay any money, she works support herself and get my help when needed, just a simple HEALTY relationship based on trust and sharing, no money involved, maybe you guys choose the wrong way or you are too much “subservient to your thai wife/girlfriend” because i see a totally different reality here. Again these are barbaric and medieval rituals only who is not able to built a normal relationship will get married in this way. But sorry this is not my case, but again if you are happy like this, i surrender, only don’t make it looks like the right thing to do…

          Reply

  88. You guys make me laugh. You act so indignant about being asked for money for marriage–but you’re the one who has to go to a third world country to get a woman! Bwahahahahaha! You’re a joke. Give me a break. “Blah blah blah it should be about love blah blah blah.” Then how come you don’t marry some fat old ugly woman from your own country? You pursue hot young Thai girls but it’s “only about love”? Jesus Christ, just how delusional are you guys?!

    Reply

    • There is simple answer to your question. We do not marry old ugly women because we do not love them. And, yes, some old men marry Thais in exchange of care, not love. Thai women make good wifes. Keep laughing, it’s healthy.

      Reply

      • I was doing a co-op in Thailand for 4 months. I had no intention of getting a girlfriend at all. She was someone who worked in the same company as a Chem Engineer and we kind of clicked. 2 years later we’re getting married. Shit happens man. Not all of us are hunting for thai chicks.

        Reply

    • I did not pursue a Thai wife. I was asked politely by a thai lady in uk to teach her friend in thailand english online. So i did we both worked hard to get her started over 4 months. We had a lot if fun and laughs on app Line. As i was going to hong kong for 5 weeks to see my friends and son i asked her if she would like me to visit she said yes. We fell in love. I offered marriage and to move to Sukhothai province so she could run her small business and maintain her family. Buy a house for her when sold my mobile home in uk worth 1,000,000 baht. She is divorced 22 year old son 15 year old daughter. But,she wants a 1,000,000 baht sin sod, it is too much for me i have not got £20,000 i am retired on 650,000 a year. I offered 100,000. Now she not happy. Have you a solution for that Nishi. I love her deeply and can will give up my country and home and look after her sick mother. And try to get her daughter back who lives with a paternal grandmother 400 kms away. So Nishi i await your response with bated breath

      Reply

      • Paul,

        as far as I have read from above she surely won’t be happy if you offer only 100k THB, as this is less than a Thai man would offer.

        I guess 200k or 300k would be much more appropiate, and helps her keeping her face.

        Reply

  89. I have been here in Thailand for a very long time. I have a successful blog with around 40,000 page views a month. Sin Sod rears its ugly head every now an again within my blog but in reality, most farangs are being done over badly by it and they are over paying for whatever they gain.

    I have been to many Thai weddings over the years. Most pay between 40-60,000 baht to the parents and maybe 2 baht of gold. This is for an average couple of average means. Poorer families of course do less. Recently I went to a wedding were the girl was pregnant (to whom we do not know and was a village joke) and only half baht of gold was given.

    The largest wedding I have seen was for 400K in Sin Sod and 5 baht of gold and this was a well to do family and the money went back to the daughter. The daughter was well educated (degree) and the husband (Thai) was also educated (degree), so it was a even match. She had a Thai boyfriend before meeting her current husband (for 3 years) and I was told, she had asked originally for 500K but due to this ‘other Thai’ relationship, the price was reduced as she was ‘used’ goods.

    Many years ago before I met my current partner, I met a 32 year old Hotel Manager for a 5 star group. She was well educated but not by a ‘high’ University and certainly was not hiso. After a year, she asked me Sin Sod of 1.2 Million baht and 15 baht of gold to marry her. I spoke to a Thai friend of mine that knew us well and was told, if she married a Thai, she would only get 300,000 and 4 baht.

    I took her to task over this and she told me the parents would keep the money and she would keep the gold. Nothing was coming back to us. I am independently wealthy but I told her no, it was going to be 300K an 4 baht of gold; the same amount that a Thai partner would go into the marriage for.

    She went to bed very angry that night and her bags were packed by the next morning and I have never seen her again. Yes, it can play against you like that.

    To the farangs here that are reading about Sin Sod. What is written in this blog is correct but the truth being about the amount ‘we’ pay, compared to a Thai, is way overboard. Yes, if you are a ‘very wealthy’ Thai, you can dis-regard most of this as they play in a league of their own an it is well above us both socially and culturally. Sin Sod in these cases can go in the Millions.

    There are plenty of ‘average’ rich Thai guys out there but I can tell you, they will not take spoiled goods (married or women with children) and following Sin Sod now in a traditional sense, the money always comes back to you. They have heaps of choice and most Thai girls would prefer to marry a Thai, not a farang and that is the truth.

    If she has been married, has children and you are prepared to take them on (an the family should be grateful for this fact), you need pay nothing and if in token she wants something, 1/2 baht in gold for a nice wedding ring is enough, as well as a Village wedding.

    Frankly, I am tired of seeing Thai bar girls ride over farangs with ‘Sin Sod’ (or some Isaan poor farm girl that wants to take you for a ride) as in reality, if you find the right women, she will ask you for very little and it will come back to you if she has a good family.

    If they are poor as ‘mice’ rice farmers or of that ilk and ask for huge Sin Sod and say they will keep the money, go look for a better quality of girl as from experience, there is NO shortage of women here in Thailand and we are in control, not them.

    Just don’t let your second head do your thinking and yes, not all Thai girls are money hungry monsters that Thai Visa makes them out to be and just let common sense guide you through.

    Like your blog by the way. Easy to look at and has a few interesting subjects.

    Reply

    • Jees, Long Time, your ‘girl’ left you after price negotiations failed, and you dare to give advice on relationship? You and Oracle are on a wrong thread. We do not discuss life with hookers here. There are plenty of other women in Thailand. For example, my woman bought me a 1 baht ring and, she paid for a hospital visit when I got food poisoning. I bough her nothing yet, just hotel rooms for us and food/drinks. I will show 400,000 sin sod (money + gold) and we will get it back. Sorry guys, your life is tough, I thing Thailand is only place where woman agrees to be with you, even here just for money.

      Reply

  90. F*** women period….some idiots can sit there like a pawn on a chess board ..take it in the a** ..and proclaim undying love…others can jump from one bed to another but they cant hold anything down….and then theres the ugly, fat gits who are loaded and can do as they please….the thing is in my experience…its all about money…phillipinos are ten times better than thais who wants no bulls*** about appearance, saving face, public affection or weird cultural habits all the time…if your middle aged and serious go to makati…ive been to thailand 15 times…isaan chix are the best ….wana be white thais make me sick in the gutts…remember in the end…your better off by yourself…have a few girlfriends enjoy and thats it!!!

    Reply

  91. hi…a simple question: me…39yo, european,very good Financial situation, university educated, 2 kids (same mum), never married. her: 27yo,very beautifull, never married, has been workng for the same emlpoyer for the past 10 years, not a Virgin, little education (but smart) but very hard working, from poor countryside familly. we should get married in thailand in march. i am aware of her tradition (i have issues accepting sin)…i let her deal with it and “mum” wants US 8000.- any coment please…

    sorry…have to add we met 4 years ago…we talk a lot about all subjects and she told me the other day she finds it difficult to be in the middle of the issues between “mum” and me…she understand my culture too and told me she needs to make it right for her familly so she can leave in peace for a new life in europe…” i sort it out with my familly and than that will be it”…she has been sending “mum” money each months for the past 10 years…

    Reply

    • Hi Jack, the type of Thai man her social status would permit her to marry probably wouldn’t be paying more than 200k Sin Sod; that is taking into account she has no kids and hasn’t been married before. That said, although uneducated she has established a good career for herself in the big city, so if she met a guy through work that might stretch to 250-300; so what her mum has asked for is about right.

      Be aware though that I doubt the payments to mum will stop after you are married. This is supposed to be the case, but if she has no younger sister to fulfil this duty then they will still rely on her. Consider that if they are a poor family they will have little if any investments, no pension and no source of income as they become too old to work.

      Reply

      • Had a conversation with my thai lady tonight’s she is 27 with 2 daughters from a previous relationship (not marriage) we have been seeing each other for over 2 years she has stated her mother wants 100k plus 100k for gold her father passed away nearly 2 years ago she was a bar girl but isn’t now (fact) not me being delusional do you think I should go down to 50k and up it if it isn’t taken well ? She’s as bright as a button but from a very poor family and although sharp not well educated

        Reply

        • I would say Eddie that if she is a former bar girl and has two daughter no one is going to be fooled into thinking she is some virtuous virgin bride worth 50k let alone 200k baht. She also is uneducated, smart as a whip or not…she is uneducated beyond maybe a mathayom 4 level or 6 at the most. M4 is required by law.

          Take into account too that she has had to support her two daughters by herself this whole time too aside from the occasional farang long timer/boyfriend(not saying this stuff to be mean just its what happens to most thai bar girls ask around if you don’t believe me.) .

          Also taking into account her mom doesn’t have anyone else to support as her husband is dead…so one little old thai lady might need about 500 to 1k baht per month to live off of…trust me they are spin thrifts and can live off much less than 500baht unless they are not that smart with money.

          All of that being said I would calculate a fair sin sod for a farang taking her daughter and grand children off her hands at about 30k baht with maybe another 5k to 10k worth of gold at most. A thai man unless he is blindly in love with her and simply can’t find anyone else would pay maybe 5k sin sod and if the mom is lucky 1k baht of gold.

          A farang is always going to pay double to triple that of a thai its just the way they love to bend us over and freak us good.

          The mother sounds like a greedy old mama san, or milk peddler…don’t go buying her used cow for more than she is worth. Not trying to degrade your lady…but she was a former prostitute so she is super used goods so she holds little not no real value sin sod wise to anyone. She is damn lucky to have you so I doubt she will protest too much and if her mom is going to try come between her and her new found wealth and better life for her daughters…lol yeah right…you could get away with no sin sod and just give the old biznitch a couple cheap imitation gold necklaces and call it good.

          Reply

    • hi,
      and thank you very much for your answer. It will be helpfull to our futur as earing from a white man who knows his stuff that i dont get f***ed over makes to pill easyer to swollow. I discussed your answer with my wife to be and she laughed at me for pointing out she wasnt a Virgin anymore:)…and she thanked me (with a synical smile) for trusting “some web site” more than her. In the end its a win win situation as i feel more secured now and she will not ear me complaining about the price anymore.
      I have also told her that, from my side moneywise that will be it and she accepted it…its christal clear to her. But i told her that when she has a job, her money isnt mine. I expect her to participate in paying some of the expenditures (some=very little) and with what is left i dont have to know. She knows that if one month she sends money to her mum she should not be asking me for clothes shopping. We have sorted that out, thanks to you.
      Could you give me your point of view about gold please. she did her best to explain but might help to have your point of view. Apparently it has to be shiny and heavy (so thai :). She told me as well that in countryside thailand diamonds dont count as the locals dont know how much they cost and think they are fakes. If i dont want her to loose face in front of her village, what would you advise me? how much gold?

      Reply

      • Generally gold is part of the ceremony, but if you have an engagement this might be given as part of this ceremony. People do things differently these days. Sometimes gifts other than gold are given to the family during the engagement, and then gold given to the bride as well as sin sod at the wedding. Sin sod is always part of the wedding though. Generally, a groom will give gold to the bride at the wedding along with the sin sod. I guess around 2 Baht gold would be fine. The formalities really depend on how traditional the family is. They may want to do everything by the old way. Some people have the engagement on the morning of the wedding, others sometime before.

        Reply

  92. Explain what happens when a Thai girl marries an Indian man, and Indian culture states they must pay a dowry to the mans family and give the newlywed couple land.

    If you still think they should pay a sin sod and NOT a dowry, you need to lay off the Chang. One culture/tradition is no more impt than the other. If they convince you that theirs is to be respected and not yours, you need to take a long look at the family you’re marrying into.

    Most sin sods at weddings are for show. Many times its the womans family who shows their own money, not the mans.

    I wouldn’t get married, so it’s a non-issue for me. If you want to pay a sin sod, do it.

    Reply

  93. Guys who pay sin sod are the guys who hang out with bar girls, or at Soi 11, or Pattaya, or Nana etc. Normal Thai girls from good families would NEVER ask a foreigner for it. They are educated enough to know its not acceptable, as he is not a Thai. If you fall for it, good for you, or shame on you.
    .
    I’ve lived all over the world, and there are ‘victim’ and ‘non-victim’ expats everywhere. Not just here. It’s a mindset. We call them ‘shirts’. Don’t be a ‘shirt’.

    Reply

    • Did you read anything in the article? Have you ever spoken to Thai people about Sin Sod? Have you ever read a book about Thai culture? No, you just made that up.

      Just for good measure, I asked the two Thai women sitting opposite me, both educated at top Bangkok universities, what they thought of your comment. After laughing somewhat, they both explained that their parents wouldn’t have let them marry anyone without a Sin Sod because this is a hugely significant part of the Thai wedding ceremony and very important in Thai society, which, in case you didn’t know, is one based on socio-hierarchical factors – many of which are reflected by Sin Sod.

      If you knew anything about the tradition of Sin Sod you’d know your comment sounds ridiculous, because if anything it would be the other way around. A girl working a bar in Soi Nana is less likely to have a Sin Sod because she will most likely have been married before, since most bar girls are divorcees/separated single mothers.

      The Sin Sod represents the woman’s status and that of her family, and therefore an educated, unmarried woman marrying for the first time would have a larger Sin Sod than an uneducated bar girl with kids who’d been married before.

      This notion that Sin Sod is a scam dreamt up by Thai people to con foreigners out of money is an ignorant bar stool rant dreamt up by a foreigner.

      If a Thai woman doesn’t want Sin Sod as part of her wedding then she can talk with her family about that. If a foreigner doesn’t want Sin Sod then don’t get married in Thailand to a Thai woman. But I can assure you, of the 10 or so Thai weddings I’ve attended, all had Sin Sod; except one. In this instance my friend, a Thai woman, decided she didn’t want a traditional Thai wedding. She married a foreigner and didn’t have Sin Sod. Her parents accepted this.

      Furthermore, all my friends who married Thai women had Sin Sod. These women are all university graduates, without kids and never married before.

      Please don’t post up random, ill-informed comments. Provide facts and references to back up such sweeping statements.

      Reply

      • I agree. every thai girl u found and you are with her every day, she will get idea in her head: now take me and pay me of.

        and she is clear in her head that she have man who will take care of her. my point was until u pay her of, u need to cash her all the time. and works fine. she is happy and she tells everybody around that she is happy. only what they do all day long is to be with man. and she have plenty of time to check you and she knows what kind of man u are.

        bar girls are just to take your money. but if she likes u, again u need to pay of her in the bar and than at the home.

        what i like here, everybody knows what is going on and u easily get what u want. we should thank you generation before us. they have build us road to thailand. now every girl in thailand want the same / the farang man 🙂

        Reply

      • Good point, TheThailandLife,

        ‘Sin Sod is a hugely significant part of Thai wedding ceremony and very important in Thai society, which, in case you didn’t know, is one based on socio-hierarchical factors – many of which are reflected by Sin Sod.’

        I completely agree with this. I just think that Sin Sod ceremony (sitting around plate with money and gold on it) is Thai tradition but, throwing money for the wedding is universal. Marriage has always been, in my opinion, a financial contract. This tradition exists in any, I repeat, any country in the world. In most countries groom’s family expected to pay, in some other places like India, bride’s family pay.

        In modern days it is all about vanity. People can’t stop to show off. This is why social media such a hit :). Wealthy ones want to protect their socio-hierarchical status and show off, “less fortune” ones are trying to follow and show off. All this has nothing to do with love and family values. I had been married to wonderful woman for 35 years. We had very small wedding but, I wish all of you, readers, to have such mutual love, care, support and respect in your marriage that we had. She died of breast cancer complications in 2011.

        I thought, after her death, I would never be able to meet woman that I want to live with and, I really did not want too. However, I met this Thai woman one and half year ago. It was enough time to know each other and to come to discussion of finance part of our relations. I trust she made her choice between me and her family. I told her that I can afford 400,000 Sin Sod and, she told me that her mother will give back all of it to us anyway. She wants to add 200,000 of her own money. Couple years ago her oldest brother threw big wedding for his daughter and gave all Sin Sod to young couple.
        As you mention ‘The Sin Sod represents the woman’s status and that of her family’. I respect my future wife and, I do not want her “to lose face”. I would pay Sin Sod even her mother would not return it to us but, I would not keep warm relations with my mother-in-law 🙂

        Are there men who were victimized by their wives in Thailand? Yes, many. Also, there are many horrible divorce stories in your country, whatever it is. Thailand is not exception. So, do not rush, make sure your girlfriend chooses you over her family. Sin Sod has nothing to do with love.

        Reply

      • I have been in a relationship with my wife to be for a long time.
        Her family have adopted me as part of the family and love me to the point where they take my point over others.

        I have lived in thailand for a long time and understand most of the culture and the face part, sin sod is as said to look after the family and to show face.

        Since i love my girls family back, and they are a great people who have never asked for anything from me, and i have never given money.
        The only gifts i have given are in the form of me laying tiles in dads house, re-wiring the electric myself, painting the house myself and improving his living conditions slowly using my own hands and diy skills.

        I will give a substantial sin sod, for my family, for their face, and to ensure everyone is happy.

        I will not embeggar myself, my wife has not asked for one, nor have her family. But i will give it out of my own respect for the culture, love of the family and the very thai aspect of face.

        Reply

  94. Anyone who pays a sin sod as a foreigner is a total Moe. It’s for Thais, among Thais. Period. In India, the mans family gets paid and the groom gets land from the females family.

    So? If she marries an Indian man, does the Thai family do this? LOL!!! They only want to ‘mesh’ cultures when it serves them. Wake up. Don’t be a Moe.

    Reply

    • There is absolutely no truth in your comment. It’s just another unsubstantiated assumption with no historical cultural context to back it up. Sin Sod is an integral part of Thai culture. Having read extensively on the subject, and having been to numerous Thai weddings, I can tell you that no where does it state that if a Thai woman marries a foreigner Sin Sod doesn’t apply.

      Sin Sod is decided by the bride’s parents and then discussed and agreed with the groom-to-be and his parents. If there are cultural differences and changes need to be made to the ceremony, these will be decided by the families involved.

      Reply

    • Gabe Asher, I have known two friend from New Deli who married thai girls, and their families accepted the Indian tradition of paying them with land and a small gift of gold. This happened only for three reasons…1 being the families the thai girls came from were well educated bankokers. 2 they have lots of money and land so it meant little to them to give their daughter’s husband the land and gold. The third reason is they both paid a fairly large Sin sod…about 2 million for one and above that for the other I was not privy to the exact amount as its kind of in bad taste to ask that of the bride who was a much closer friend than the groom. The other thing that affected this happening is everyone involved were well educated and culturally sensitive enough to respect each others cultures.

      If they were marrying into a poor thai family then of course they would get jack, how can anyone ask anything more than maybe a free bag of rice from a poor farmer? I actually think that the Indian tradition is a bag of bull dung, I have to pay you money to screw my daughter as if I did not know you two already bangged uglies together at least once if not more before your married. Then on top of it I have to pay you money and land to take her…wow yeah great tradition..cheers India you really love to screw over the bride and her family. If you want to talk about uncivilized I think that tradition takes the cake and the bakery it was made in too. Good luck with your ideas and opinions and cheers for not being a part of the reproductive part of society…we can use a few less douchebags like you and indian culture.

      I especially enjoy the part of Indian culture where you get to rape girls, say its their fault, then shame them til they kill themselves or a group of drunken idiots decide to gang rape her again then torture and hang her naked in view of the village. Yup great traditions there in India. Let’s all follow yours instead of a non-harmful sin sod thai tradition…cause following that would just be crazy right? Way to go arsehat, keep them great indian traditions alive!

      Reply

      • You obvously did not understand Gabes comment.. which was easy enough to understand. Hint: she is not from India, and does not try to say Indian traditions are better than Thai traditions.
        When you call other people arsehat.. it’s always a good idea to check if you are wearing one yourself.

        Reply

  95. It is very simple.

    Pay her 100 – 200 Eur when you are back home. And 20.000 – 40 .000 bath when you are in Thailand. They ask for marriage, but if you pay every month is fine.

    u pay extra accommodation, presents and food. this could be 20.000 to 40.000bath more.

    if u pay more she is happier and relationship is happier. it is good to find one who likes u in beginning. and do not play games with the money. ‘give me what you like’

    reading is fine, but please do calculation. can you pay all of it? if you can cash her family and u really want to bring her home.. find her a job.. than u are fine. there is many of them, who will ask nothing in return. in beginning u pay something to get into.. every trip there cost 200.000 bath anyway.

    i think more than half of the man who can go there can not pay all of it. than frustration comes. same frustration u have with your business. you want to things move on, but not going. for those who have constant good income and having holidays/mistresses is the best. for all others i recommend to find cheaper places. Thailand is not cheap and is not poor country. they have sun, fruits and tourists 365 days. that is paradise

    Reply

  96. Hi…
    Loving this blog…

    I recently had a discussion with my intended regarding Sin sot…before I go to talk to her mum…
    It did not go well….Based on posts on this blog I was happy to go and negotiate at around 300k….but, my girlfriend has told me that what ever is agreed with her mother needs to be matched to her….for rings etc…

    I’m a bit put out about this…I have no problem honoring her family and no issue with shopping with her for rings…..wedding and engagement. But as we plan to start a business I can ill afford to pay an extra 300k..
    Is this correct custom?
    Cheers John

    Reply

    • There is no such custom to my knowledge, and I have read about and experience this subject extensively.

      In fact, rings are very much a new thing, adopted from the western culture of getting engaged with a ring and having wedding rings.

      Thai culture has its own form of engagement, separate to the wedding day, called Khan Maak. Sin Sod is agreed prior to the engagement, and it doesn’t go ahead until it has been approved.

      Many couples choose to have the engagement on the same day now to save money, or combine the engagement traditions into the wedding.

      Traditionally the engagement involves an offering of gold and gifts for the bride and her family. I attended a Thai-Thai engagement recently and money was given to the bride’s mother.

      There is no “matching” of any sorts, that your GF mentions, I assume that is her personal expectation. Do be aware though that in addition to the Sin Sod, you will be expected to buy gold for your wife to be presented on your weeding day (if that is her preference) and gifts for her family (optional these days and can be small).

      Reply

  97. Absolutely freaking incredible the concept of SinSod…Wish we in India had Sin Sod instead of Dowry paid by the bride to the groom which has been a curse on Indian women.

    Millions of Indian women would have been saved, if we had SinSod concept in India.

    Thousand of infanticide in India due to, desire for a son, as he is of less burden. In India, many women commit suicide due to constant harassment from the grooms parents for dowry.

    Concept such as SinSod is what keeps Thailand Alive and women not discriminated against. If there was no concept of SinSod, Thai women would suffer like women in India.

    Reply

  98. It is very interesting. I can see that you researched a lot for this article. I am Korean who got married to Thai man. I totally agree with you. My sin-sod was big and I returned his family. like what you wrote… 🙂 Thank you for sharing good article.

    Reply

  101. Sinsod is for thai’s…and dumbass farangs…marry wtf? for….theres 75 million of them…they all want to tie you down ….good luck dumbasses….your the boss…you make the cash…its your choice… not theres…KAPISH?

    Reply

    • The female population of Thailand is 34.9 million (51.03%) of the total population of 67.01 million, not 75 million. The large majority of the female population do not want to marry a foreigner. Indeed, my wife didn’t want to be my girlfriend let alone marry me when we first met. Perhaps the females you meet in bars and in and around the tourist industry from very poor backgrounds with families to feed and support may be desperate to bag any foreigner they can for economic reasons, but that certainly does not represent the average Thai female. Kapish?

      Reply

  102. Sounds like a way to make money for the family.
    What´s their social status?
    Her education level?
    Where do they live?
    Where will your brother and his wife live in the future?
    Maybe she can’t get pregnant and someone in the family knows that, or a fortune teller told someone that she can´t get pregnant(I am not kidding).
    I have never ever heard about a sin sod that will be kept until the first baby is born.
    I think the family is trying to upgrade their financial status.

    Reply

  103. I apologize if this has been asked and answered before. My question is about a U.S. citizen (my brother) paying a 1m baht ($30k USD) to his fiancee’s family (we have been told it will be returned at the birth of their first child). Regardless of Thai cultural practices and any other ways to explain the custom, the U.S. government could still consider this direct payment for the right to marry (i.e., human trafficking). So, is this even legal for a U.S. citizen to do? Can someone point me in the direction of verifiable resources to confirm that this observation of a cultural practice/custom does not violate federal and international laws?

    Reply

    • Hi Jess, I’ve never heard of money being withheld in this manner; it is certainly not part of the tradition and sounds like a ransom of sorts. I don’t know the US law, so I couldn’t answer that question, but I can’t see any logical reason why this demand would be made other than an excuse to secure some money. Maybe the family is scared your brother will run off before they have kids, quite what difference that will make I don’t know. Perhaps the difference being that if they have a child, should your brother leave her, he is more likely to continue to support the wife of his child financially. So perhaps this is security towards that eventuality. All sounds rather prehistoric and cold though. If the family is poor and I would suggest your brother works out an amount he can happily afford to offer as a “gift” and leave the sin sod at that. If the family is well off, they will simply show the money on the day in the traditional manner and return it without fuss. This is generally the norm these days.

      Reply

  105. There is a phrase in Vietnamese (also in Chinese and I doubt in Thai too) says that “you must keep well (high) your self-respect (pride, ego), event though you are very poor”.

    The fact is, in those countries, the more you are poor, the more you desire to keep your face. Because they think that they have absolutely nothing except the face.

    Due to that logic, you will find out that there are more chance the rich or average families over there would be more flexible way about the sin sod “show”, cause they always have other thing to “show” to the village already: wealth, education …

    I was successful to go out of such good-for-nothing tradition, I will tell you how I did.

    I’m a Vietnamese girl, married to a french guy 13 years ago.

    I don’t want to celebrate my own wedding by vietnamese’s way, which would have at least 800 guests that I don’t know 9/10 of them. A vietnamese’s wedding party in my city, in fact is an event to collect money envelopes, guests enter the hall, give the envelopes, join a table which often they don’t know each other, eat quickly, then left after 30′-40′. Puffff!!!

    “he went to put an envelope for my son’s wedding, so now it’s my turn to pay him back for his daughter’s one”
    “my boss’ son is married today, I don’t have an invitation card but I still come to get such a good chance to bribe him as money under the table” …v…v…

    Sick!

    To be sure that my family couldn’t put pressure on us to do their way, I told everybody that I don’t do a wedding party yet.

    Then the “D-Day” morning, I called those I want to invite to come to a restaurant that evening.
    – “What??? You told us your plan is next spring!!!”
    – “Uncle, surprise!!!!”
    => end of discussion.

    The KEY of the game: Do thing before the olders know about it, if you give them time then you have to follow their way. Why?
    Because asian culture is that the older people decide for the younger. It is not acceptable for the children go against their parents.
    The most polite way to avoid is: “do not let them time to decide. Not a second”!! Hehehe

    Do the party look like mixing between western-asia way, so you really have an excuse to why I don’t do this but I do that, cut the part you don’t like such as sin sod. Should also put personal touch to make the party in such a very unique one.
    How can your family lose face, cause this is not a pure traditional wedding anyway. Everybody will be concentrate to how unique it is and forget about the tradition symbol.

    Reply

  106. Sinsod is a thai tradition. From the very beginning just that: A tradition for thais among thais.
    As foreigners we sometimes se it as a way to pull money from us.
    In many cases the tradition is used to do exactly that.
    Making the daughter of the family a tool to make easy, sometimes BIG money.
    Like it or not: This is Thailand today.

    Ps: The “scam sinsod” is often protected by foreigners who have paid a big amount of money for their old, uneducated “second hand” wife in therms like: She is worth it!
    Maybe she is to him, but that does´t make it less a scam.

    Reply

    • You’re right. Sinsod is a Thai tradition, and one that is exploited by some families to get more money than should be correctly apportioned to a marriage that involves a foreigner. Which is why, like I always say, any man marrying a Thai woman, or indeed living in Thailand, should dedicate time to properly learning the culture and traditions behind it. Learn about societal structures, ceremonial traditions, religious influences, etc.

      Reply

      • The tradition in my country is that the wife’s family should pay all the expenses regarding the marriage, so? How are we gonna do this? And let’s say the marriage is between thais, the poor people is among also thai husbands, so what are we gonna do with them? They must be rich to look after the poor wife family? Your post is very confusing, even the thais should respect our tradition or not?

        Reply

        • Before getting into a serious relationship with a Thai person you should be aware of what the culture is surrounding marriage. Of course, this works both ways, which is why many Thai-foreign weddings are a mixture of both cultures; it’s up to the individuals and families involved to agree on what they want/expect. I’m not sure what you mean about Thai husbands. It’s true there are many marriages between poor men and women where the men get themselves in debt to provide a sin sod, but then many save up for this event for a long time, or money is provided by their family.

          Reply

          • That’s why i consider it VERY UNFAIR, and i will not get married with a thai woman unless she will show some respect for my traditions as well… if i want to buy a woman there plenty of places in Thailand(and not only)…Love shouldn’t be based on money or on what i can pay to the family of my girlfriend… this is very wrong and i am surprised that there are western people who support this thing, maybe it’s because they try to justify themselves or their mistakes….There is nothing to understand on this, money is something, love is a totally different thing.

            Reply

  107. Thanks for your article.
    I am okay to pay her sin sod of 200 000 baths as a sign of respect for her family and culture. However I wonder, It doesn’t seem right that she still want to send money to her mother after the wedding right ?? Isn’t it what sin sod is about ?

    Reply

    • Hi Nicolas, many women from poor families will continue to send a portion of their salary home after marriage. If the woman isn’t working then this responsibility will fall upon her partner. In some cases, the sending of money each month stops after marriage, but the daughter will still be obliged to help out financially when needed.

      Reply

  108. Hi there ^^

    I’m a Thai girl who have foreigner boyfriend…I’ve read all about Sin Sod’s pages….I’d like to explain about Sin Sod to my bf also ^^ That’s why I have to read and get to know more how to clearly explain about Thai marriage tradition to him. This article very useful and interesting. Especially I get to know more ” How’s foreigner think about Sin Sod” There are various of attitude or point of view …I’m respect all the point of view 🙂

    I’m 26 years old and my bf 25 years old ( He’s younger than me 😛 ) We ‘re in relationship for 2 years. visit each other 1-2 times a year(I live in Bangkok) but now….we have a big plan…I’m moving to live with him in Finland ( I’ve been there one time visit him and his family. everything was great. They’re love me and i love them also. I’m happy that we will be together soon ( end of 2015). Anyway……. In my opinion Sin Sod means about respectful their parents or family. Surly this is a Thai marriage traditional. and i respect my parents also but….I’m sure that my parents will never ask Sinsod from my bf because we both still so young 🙂 ( but i need to let my bf know what sinsod is ) we need more time for saving money for our
    life. I think we can earn money and look after them later when we ready
    then we can have a small wedding only relatives and close friends ^^
    I write this comment because truly is 90 % the family’s thai girl expect a sinsod ,exactly because of tradition.For me “Money can buy a convenience but money can’t buy a happiness” I just focus on a happiness. of course money also important in our life but happiness is the most important in life.Therefore… money is not base on a condition of my love
    well…I hopefully everyone on this pages get through any troubles and understand well about Sinsod in thai traditional…..wish you guys found a true love.. cheer up 🙂

    good luck guys ^^

    Reply

    • Hi Catty, thanks for sharing your story; it’s good to get some insight from a Thai woman on this subject. I think you make a good point about being young and your parents not expecting Sin Sod, or at least not a big amount. Young men just starting out in married life usually don’t have a lot of money saved; certainly not to just give away, anyway. I think this is why SOME poorer Thai girls seek out older men to marry because they know older men have savings from their career, a regular pension income and have probably inherited money from their parents too, and can therefore pay a bigger sin sod and take care of the girl’s family.

      Thanks for clarifying that 90% of Thai families would expect sin sod for their daughters due to tradition. This is something many foreigners don’t understand. Some think it is a scam designed to get money from foreign men. I wish you all the best with your marriage.

      Reply

    • Well if any Thai woman marries a western man then she should respect his cultural values . In the west we do no buy love , it’s a criminal offence to do so ( human trafficking laws ) my advice to any Thai lady is to either repeat western culture or marry a Thai and let that fool feed your family . Marriage is and should be based on love and feelings . Not finacial Gai.

      Reply

      • This is the biggest load of poo I have ever heard. Maybe if you pick up some hooker from soi 18 and your 50 years old. I’m 23 and married to my 23 year old Thai wife I met her travelling and she studied at university is ambitious and shames upon a lot of Thai problems like prostitution etc. not all Thai girls are like this just the stereotypes. If my wife wanted any money off me I would not of married her. It’s your own fault if you marry someone that wants your money !
        Prejudice bellends.

        Reply

  109. Hi Very interesting topic. I’m reading up on sin sod these days because i want to know what is a decent amount to pay for and somewhat educated girl of what i know now from my new and recent girlfriend. She is not married, think she is still a virgin. I like her a lot but need time to know more about her but she wants to me to ask her to marry this summer already. We met in December, she’s 32 already, wants 2 children. I do have a children wish myself.

    I was thinking of 1-2 months of salary, being said i make 48000 each month. Since I know she wants some gold for her. I think I’ll be the one that will pay for the wedding since my gf is not wealthy. I’m not so wealthy in belgium either. Life is expensive here. I can save quite a bit since I still live at home but on a waiting list for a social house.

    I can go one time a year to thailand since I can save ok to good every month and still have my life in belgium. Also I have to calculate that if I want her to come to belgium for a short visit I’ll need to be able to provide that too.

    Reply

    • Do you mean 48,000 baht per month, or 48,000 euros (or should I say 48.000)?

      If you mean 48,000 euros, 2 months’ salary seem like way more than ample for a “somewhat educated” woman (not sure what you mean by this). If you mean 48,000 baht, then 2 months’ salary seems a little slim, especially for a woman with a bachelor’s degree. That said, it all depends on what her family expects.

      Reply

  110. Awesome thread TTL. Have just become involved with a Thai lady and reading the entire thread has been very helpful indeed. Hearing the various points of view has enabled me to understand more where she is coming from when we talk. Knowledge leads to power and can smooth the path ahead when one knows the culture and reasoning behind actions. The path of love is certainly one of combining the heart and head. Look forward to further updates.

    Reply

  112. My future wife is 22 yrs younger than me. After we stayed in Bkk with her mother over the weekend we fell in love and all that, and we agreed to 200.000 Bht for Sin Sod, so I was actually very happy with that. However.
    Then came the demand for 5 baht gold, worth 4000 dollars. Also, to pay for the wedding, add another 5000 dollars. Also, to pay for rings.(not that that is a Thai tradition at all).

    So now Im left with thinking if I was a millionaire I’d just shell out the cash and have me a nice Thai girl, she might even stay with me for more than 6 months.

    But there is just no way I can(or want to) satisfy all these stupid ring, gold and Sin Sod demands.

    Reply

  113. I’m really confused how much to offer… so any advice can be useful

    She is 50 years old work at her family business which given by her parents to her brother, got university degree and making around $2000 a month which is big for a thai standard , divorced years ago, got 2 grown up kids one is married other engaged and her mother is still alive so how I read here and on other sites Some amount of Sin Sod should be offered to keep up with the traditions …

    Reply

  114. Well how about that, can someone clarify whether assets in the groom’s home country are under threat in a divorce when the marriage was in Thailand?

    And can you recommend someone to talk to wrt to prenup here in Thailand/Bangkok?

    Once again, thank you for the thread, it is very informative.

    Reply

    • I’d like to piggyback a question on these: if we are already married in the US, are there any special legal ramifications to getting married again in Thailand? Is it even legal to get married twice (to the same person, of course)?

      Reply

      • You wouldn’t to get married again, but rather have the marriage registered.

        When in Thailand you would need to go to the US Embassy and have your marriage certificate certified as valid. This could be done in the US too, I’m sure.

        Next you need to get that document translated into Thai by an official translation office. You then need to get that document certified by the Thai Foreign Ministry, Consular Department (not sure if this step is still required).

        After that, go to any Amphur to have the marriage registered in Thailand.

        You might be able to do all this in the US, via the US embassy and Thai consulate, although I’m from the UK so I’m not sure about that.

        Reply

        • Well we want to have a wedding ceremony in Thailand, but I’m guessing I could do that and then just register the marriage rather than do whatever paperwork would normally be required.

          Do you know if there are any benefits to registering the marriage in Thailand (currently we plan to live in the US)? If not, we could just do a ceremony without any paperwork.

          Thanks for your help.

          Reply

          • Yes, you can have the ceremony and register the marriage afterwards. This is standard practice anyway.

            If your wife has taken your name, then she will need to register the marriage to change bank account details, ID card and asset ownership documents to her married name, if she wants to that is.

            Reply

  115. Is it not suspect that any money that is put into Thailand by a foreign groom, he has no legal right to? Be it invested in any sort of property. But in the west she may have more rights than you to your own stuff. So technically the bride could own all the assets in her homeland and half or more of the assets in your own country, should something go wrong. On top of that your still expected to pay sin sod??? Even more so the possibility of monthly or yearly payments???? To any aware individual, red flag pop up all over the place.

    Reply

  116. Sorry, I was being unclear. What I mean is that it would be hard to deny a request for financial assistance even if the family(land owners, 4 working brothers) might not require it. I took this scenario from a comment above.

    There are also the reports of asking for family assistance on a monthly basis, and there is just no way to know whether this will happen or not. (it’s happened to me twice, but when things were still in the online stage, so no harm done).

    As to the running away, that could be the case if we were (also) married in my country of residence and not just in Thailand.

    I wish the Thai government would just legislate a flowchart with which woman deserves what Sin Sod for any given family constellation, and it wouldn’t feel so much like haggling over a kilo of fish at the market.

    Reply

    • Haha, that’s quite a good idea. Sadly Sin Sod is grossly distorted by celebrity culture too; with big stars marrying for in excess of 100 million etc.

      Many low-earning Thai men put themselves in debt to come up with 200 or 300,000 Baht sin sod, a figure which would be considered quite low in this day and age.

      Where monthly stipends are concerned, I’ve never had to deal with this and it’s not a cultural thing, more something that women with dependents might try and secure when marrying a foreigner. At the end of the day, I think the same applies whether marrying into a Thai family or any other nationality of family, if someone comes to you with a desperate request for money, you consider A) the merit of the request, and B) What you can afford to give, if you decide you want to help.

      Of course, if your wife is at home looking after the home and your children, you will be giving her some money to support that work, and perhaps she’ll choose to share some of that with her family.

      If you have assets to protect and have your reservations, I strongly suggest doing a prenuptial.

      Reply

  117. I’m currently spending the weekend in Bkk with spouse-to-be and her mother, and the first thing that came up after having set down together for the first time was the damn Sin Sod. Mother first told me no hanky panky before marriage, and then asked how much I was willing to pay. I hadn’r read this blog before that and had only a vague idea of the whole concept.

    So I stalled and said I felt uncomfortable and would like her to tell me how much she expects.

    I’m very much a lover of all things Thai(and Asian), but the whole Sin Sod idea, plus the emotional blackmail that may lie ahead should one of her family members fall ill, plus the non-negligible chance that she might run away with half my assets shortly after the marriage, make me reconsider this whole thing.

    So here I am, one whole weekend to go, and it’s awkward to say the least haha. What I’m planning to do is sit down with my girl and see how she feels about it, without mum present.

    See how it goes.

    Reply

    • What do you mean by this: “plus the emotional blackmail that may lie ahead should one of her family members fall ill, plus the non-negligible chance that she might run away with half my assets shortly after the marriage, make me reconsider this whole thing.”

      How would she run away with half your assets? How would that be possible?

      Why would there be emotional blackmail if a family member falls ill?

      Reply

  118. Im not saying that my feelings on this are correct in any way. These are questions that come to me.

    The tradition in the west is that her parents pay for the wedding and the couple get a good boost to start their life together. If they are to start a family, theres a need to build a good platform to raise healthy kids of their own. If you live in north america, should you and your spouse follow the traditions of the west?

    Buddhist speak of non materialism but no matter how you paint it, to even display the Sinsod is materialistic to a high degree. The fact that a lot of the time the Sinsod is not owned by the groom but it is insinuated to save face is not shallow and vain?

    Is it a good way to open a relationship with your in-laws by them asking you for money?

    If she has a dad and brothers then how hard are they working and can they not support their wives and daughters?

    If you had a daughter, would the love of her man be what is important to you? Or to monetize it and negotiate it to see how much she is worth?

    And finally, A mothers breast milk… Symbolic or not.
    If anything is free on the earth, should it not be a baby’s milk from the mothers breast?

    Reply

    • I don’t think Buddhism is relevant to the Sin Sod debate because although Thailand is branded a Buddhist country (Theravada), it’s more a mix of Hinduism, Animism, and Buddhism. For example, many Thais are superstitious, worshipping Hindu deities such as Ganesh, and living in fear of spirits, which is considered by Buddhists to be unconscious, and therefore not part of the conscious Buddhist pathway.

      That’s not to say some Thais don’t follow Buddhist precepts, but it really is a complex, rather “Thainess” version of Buddhism that the average Thai adheres to.

      Moreover, culture has a tendency to override/reinterpret religion. For example, I doubt Jesus would agree with carrying a gun, yet more than a third of “Christian” American households own a gun.

      I think what one must realise when living in Thailand, and especially when marrying a Thai person, is that this is a classist society. While it adopts a capitalist monetary system, Thailand is very much still a feudal system, ruled by an aristocracy and elite class. People are judged on wealth, status, family descent, education, region of birth, etc. Society is generally organised based on these things. And this is therefore reflected and demonstrated through engagements, weddings and even funerals.

      Of course, not every Thai lives by these ideals, and many aren’t interested in Sin Sod, saving/showing face, elevating status, etc. I have a Thai friend who married a foreigner and wasn’t the slightest bit interested in having a sin sod. But by and large society still works this way, which is why when Thais meet each other they first establish of what social class a person is, because that will dictate the interaction and relationship going forward – in terms of how address one another and even whether or not they will establish a friendship.

      This is why I always encourage people to read up on Thai history and culture. Because by understanding the history you are able to better understand how Thai society works. And it also means you won’t find yourself misunderstanding and getting angry by sin sod, when for a Thai, this is just a normal part of a wedding ceremony.

      Reply

  119. The more i read about the subject the more i realize that there are no certain and absolute truth about the sin sod.
    One thing i know from experience is that the thais tend to bend the reality, in this case the traditions to gain their own needs.
    Me and my GF lives in Sweden since 3years and had a very turbulent first year. One subject that came up and kept coming up the first two months was the sin sods be or not to be. My opinion has always been BIG NO TO SIN SOD. It´s buried so deep within my mentality that i would rather stab myself then lower my values down to the show off for neighbors/saving family face level. No i don´t respect the thai tradition in this case. Just because it´s a tradition doesn´t means it´s a good one! Keep in mind that we do live in Sweden and intend to do that until we retire or for the rest of our lives.
    As a matter of fact i don´t want to get married at all. Why marry when it´s just a show off and an un holy alliance that in reality doesn´t mean much.
    I might change my mind about the marriage thing in the future but today it´s not among the priorities in our life. If we get kids things might change…
    Intresting thing is that my GF has adopted most of my opinions now. I think that one big reason is that she is no longer living in Thailand. She can nowadays think for herself, analyze and speak her opinion with her own words (in 3 languages) without “losing face” if someone has better arguments or if she realizes that she was wrong.
    Back to sin sod.
    We live in Sweden.
    My GF has a university degree and had a good job when we met.
    It is my money. Means exactly that. It is my money!
    Her family is from the north.
    They do not need our support.
    I have made it clear that i will support the day it´s needed, if she´s not working and making money by herself by then.
    If we build or invest anything in Thailand it will be her property if we brake up.
    She will get the benefits of the swedish welfare system, and that´s worth much more then a sin sod.
    As a matter of fact she´s studying right now in Sweden and the school costs me 100€ / year – Allmost for free.

    This is our life.
    Her family is ok with everything. As a matter of fact they often support me when we disagree in a subject.

    From a faring point of view a marriage with a thai is often a lose or lose situation. I am now talking about the poor or the lower middle class citizens.
    Adding a sin sod to this is a scam unless it is not made very clear that you won´t be asked to finance the familys life in the future.
    Reality is that you will be emotionally blackmailed the day someone gets sick and there´s no money to pay the hospital bill.
    Either way, you lose!
    This is strictly from an economic point of view.

    Reply

    • I agree to this post entirely! Being from Norway, myself, I guess my cultural values are similar to yours.. I think, respectfully, the tradition of SinSod is a backwards tradition based on class mindset I detest..
      Having said that, I really respect and love many aspects of Thai Culture..

      My strong opinions also brings me i conflict with my own culture from time to time.. so this is not a case of my euro-centrisism blinding me.. If my Thai girlfriend lived in Norway, I would not marry her at all.. I am not religious, and my countries laws are accomodating to the fact that many people think like me.. There is therefore getting increasingly less important to marry for tax reasons or other practical reasons..

      There is however one exception.. and that is bringing a GF to Norway.. (Almost?) impossible to get legal papers in order if the foreign partner is not married to the local resident.

      So I have fallen for this girl.. and she wants to move to my country and start a life for me. Unfortunately this means I have to marry her… She is a modern woman, and she actually agrees with my views on SinSod..

      I have had lengthy conversations about her father.. to explain important differences between our cultures and legal/practical organization.. He understands that my “wealth” is bound up in the country I live: with high taxation, free health care, free education etc..

      After I have paid taxes and mortgages on my condo – I don’t have a lot money left.. My income (after tax) is infact not that different from my GF’s dad. But unlike him, I can’t put aside a lot of money in a savings account, because living costs here are completely different from his and because the economic system I live under makes sure that the taxations I pay on both income and the goods I buy is made available for me for free, should I get cancer or other expensive-to-treat illnesses.

      Her dad both thinks it is funny and is proud about driving a newer and more expensive car than me, but he also understand that should he get sick, there is no public system to compensate him for the business he loses, neither to pay expensive hospital bills.. so while he, if unlucky, might be forced to sell both his car and his house to cover medical bills, I would hardly be set back at all, should the same thing happen to me.

      I have told him honestly that I despise the SinSod tradition, just like I despise some traditions in my own country.. and that it is simply out of the question to put a million bath on the table, unless it is for show only – and even that, I would not like. I think public displays of whealth to show of class is stupid and uncivilized – both when it happens in the west and in the east..

      As I said, I like a lot of things about Thai culture… but this class-thing is something I despise with a passion.. We spent hundreds of years in the west to try our best to abolish it.. why should I embrace it when I come to Thailand? “You should not wai people of lower position than you”… well.. I don’t consider anyone “lower” or “higher” than me. It’s all bullshit to me.
      BTW, not all Thais like this “class thing”, and one of my best Thai friends in BKK says.. “I’ll wai fucking everyone – my respect paid to my fellow Thai isn’t tied up to their family name or the make of the car they drive”

      I think I am lucky to have met a woman with parents who has a modern midset about these things.. if it had been any different, our future marriage would be in trouble.

      I want to thank mr. TTT for an excellent blog! I think what you write on this page is very interesting and useful. Why I completely agree with you that no-one should marry across cultural boarders without knowing and tolerating the culture you marry into, at the same time no-one should compromise with their personal morality.

      If you are not a fan of the Thai feudal class hierarchy, you should not help Thailand uphold this medieval tradition. The rationalization behind keeping up this tradition is all just empty rethorics. In my view it reflects a view upon women that is deeply sexist and is certainly also in-directly linked to the Thai culture of prostitution.. which is centuries older than what happens in the red-light districts aimed at falang tourists.

      To “pay for the mothers milk” apply only to the female offspring of a family.. which stress the fact how women are seen as property. First she belongs to her parents, and as she marry, she belongs to her husband. If she is divorced her value as property is ‘returned’ to her family.. and now her Sin Sod is lowered if she re-marries, as a ‘used’ woman is considered less worth – her value is even lower if she has children.

      How is SinSod related to prostitution? Not directly of course – any Thai will of course deny this from their cultural view-point – but indirectly it reflects an ancient view upon women as property with a value – a view that has existed (and still exists many places) in any and all cultures throughout history as far as I know.

      The fact that a Sin Sod is estimated based on wether the girl is a virgin or not, wether she has had a BF or not, been married, have children and what social class she belongs too etc. is not only a marker for a class society, but also a marker for a deeply primitive collective sexism.

      If I wanted to marry my GF according to Thai traditions, my parents would have to discuss Sin Sod with her parents – and if my parents were “good negotiators”, they would respectfully bring up the fact that my GF was not a virgin, and was in a relationship before me – and according to tradition, hence bring the Sin Sod down. I am cringing just from thinking about it. The fact that I have slept around extensively and lived with a woman for 8 years prior to meeting my future wife.. would be of no importance at all..
      Any way you look at this, it is blatant sexism.

      A collegue married a woman from a poor Issan village in his early twenties. They have stayed together for 20 years soon, and live in Norway. He has bought farm land for his wife’s family, and they travel there every year. Recently his wife told him about a discussion between her mother and the mother in the neighbouring farm. The two neighbour daughters were approaching adulthood, and their desperatly poor mother (who had a creepy brother living in BKK) was contemplating the following dilemma: Her brother could arrange “work” for the two girls – they would be offered a one-off sum for each of the girls, plus a monthly revenue from the income the girls would have as entertainers. Since the girls were known for their beauty well beyond the village borders, the mother were contemplating wether she should keep the daughters at home and hope they would bring in good Sin Sod, or “hire” them out for business – knowing that this would reduce their value when they married later.

      The issue of Sin Sod is of course a complex matter. When falangs encounter it, they can deal with it in many different ways. Some will pay up with out blinking – not because they respect Thai culture – but simply because the money is not a big deal for them financially speaking. Some – like me – have moral issues, but – unlike me – they decide to be pragmatic about it and pay up. Others don’t mind the tradition but struggle with the finances, as marrying abroad and bringing a wife home is costly to begin with – so they might even get into debt by credit financing their marriage/sin sod.

      Then there is the guys like me, who might even not be looking to marry a Thai per se, but happens to fall in love with one, and then has to decide wether they should compromise with their personal ethics or not. Luckily, my GF does not care about these things – the only time she brings up marriage is when we discuss our future in Norway, VISA issues, and so forth. She is a modern and ambitous woman who is looking forward to continue her studies in Norway and pursuit a professional career of her own.

      There is a somewhat tragic-comic perspective to this, and that has to do with the fact that an overwhelming part of those who bring home a wife from Thailand, also are customers of the sex industry. Furthermore, ALL of the Thai/Norwegian couples I have met, the wife comes from poor conditions in Isaan or other poverty-ridden parts of the North. If you find an Isaan or hill-tribe woman in Pattaya, BKK or Phuket, like these guys for the most part have done, you are most probably marrying a (former) prostitute.
      What baffles me, is that a lot of these guys – happy to pay for sex – suddenly feels paying a sin sod is immoral, because “you can’t buy real love”. The fact is that most of these marriages has nothing whatsoever to do with “real love”. An attractive young woman does not marry a middle-aged average-Joe plumber who doesn’t even speak her language because of “real love”. The world hardly ever swings this way. My guess is that at least 90% of the falang/thai marriages, in truth are stories about a westerner going to a third world country to buy a wife.

      Let’s be real. If these women were living next door to these wife-seeking guys, they wouldn’t even look at them… not in a million years.
      The women want a way out of poverty – and a Thai man of their same class cannot offer them that. Perhaps they are “tainted” from sex-work, or have a child from a former marriage. The men want a shapely, young wife… but in their own country they couldn’t score a “shapely woman in her 20’s or early 30’s” if their life depended on it.

      I am not passing moral judgement here – there are as many reasons for marriages as there are married couples in this world. And I am sure many thai/falang marriages turn out well – with real love and real trust as ingredients. But to think most of the falang/thai marriages is not about money from the very beginning, is to turn a blind eye to the real world. When guys who buy sex suddenly think paying for a sin sod is immoral, they have lost me.

      I shared a table with a German guy once, and he was dealing with the family of a young woman he wanted to marry – “a wild animal in bed.. and she can cook too!”, he let me know. However the main topic of our conversation was how much he hated her mother, who had asked for a 200.000 BTH sin sod – “like a fucking mamasan… it feels so… unromantic”. Luckily the guy left my table before I acted on the strong urge to kick his teeth in.. but he had some “business to attend to up on soi 21”. – Sounds romantic, I said. He missed my sarcasm and laughed “Indeed!” (- he would part with just about 1/20th of the sin sod in question on that night alone).

      Either way you feel about SinSod, I think the key thing is open communication with the family of the woman you have fallen for. Whether you are comfortable with the tradition of sin sod or not, is up to anyone who finds himself in this situation.

      A marriage is a big compromise, anyway – there is both give and take. Bringing a woman out of her country, away from her country, her family and friends, to a completely different language and culture is not anyone should take lightly. The issue of Sin Sod is after all small compared to the many other challenges you may encounter.

      Most likely the person reading this blog live in/hail from a country that grants its inhabitants some sort of safety net when they get sick or old and need care. If I go bankrupt, I would have worries, but my family will be taken care of, my parents will receive good medical treatment if they were in need, a room in a free home for the aged when time comes, and even a publicly sponsored funeral if I am unable to pay.
      In Thailand, there are almost no such security – no free medical services, no pensions, no public education beyond 6th grade, no nothing – so family is EVERYTHING. Unfortunally, many falangs fail to understand this… you can even read it in this comments section. They worry about the “emotional blackmail” that may occur, should a close family member back in Thailand need expensive medical treatment. No, mr. Selfcentered Ignorant Lowlife Bastard, this is not “emotional blackmail” – this is real, genuine worry for the people your future wife loves more than anyone in the world. Furthermore, by marrying a woman from a culture where Family is the safety net, it is her duty to help.
      If you want a terrible marriage, a good recipy would be to marry a girl from a poor background in a country with no public “safety-net” – with the intentions not to contribute financially should her family need support for expensive medical care or any other desperate issue. “Emotional blackmail”?? – no wonder you guys need to go to a third world country to find a partner.

      Reply

      • I don’t disagree with your points. I too do not like the class system in Thailand, neither the caste system in India. I’m not a fan of the money system full stop – in fact I support the Venus Project. But regardless of my views, Thailand’s social hierarchy and associated traditions are not going to change any time soon. And let’s not put the blame on the average Thai family here. As in any society, most just follow what others do and the example set by their superiors. Real change must start at the top. Until it does, social prejudice will continue to infect all aspects of society and people will adhere to what authority dictates.

        But let’s take a step back here for a moment and look at our own countries. It’s easy for us foreign folk to point fingers and say how disgusted we are by sin sod and the apparently money-motivated aspects of Thai culture. But really, I ask you, how different is this to our own culture? Sure, in our so-called “democracies” we have sugarcoated our approach to life in ironic pseudo liberalism, but all we do is use intelligent verbiage to hide the fact that we do pretty much do the same things as those we judge.

        Take weddings as an example: I was on the phone to a friend the other day who is getting married in 2017. He is arguing with his GF about how much the wedding is going to cost because she is being pressured to keep up with others in her social circle. This type of keeping face, or keeping up with the Jones’ as we call it, is quite normal.

        The average UK wedding costs in excess of 20k GBP: Thousands spent on dresses, cars to pick people up and drop them off, swanky venues and weird and wonderful entertainment. People waste money in the most sickening ways. At least in most cases the sin sod paid by foreigners helps the wife’s family buy some land or make much-needed alterations and additions to the house. It actually makes a difference to someone’s life who needs it. It is only the really rich Thais who waste money on expensive hotel venues and a Rolls Royce to turn up in.

        The reality is that the large majority of foreigners marrying a Thai woman might give say 300k sin sod to the family and spend less than 100k on the actual wedding – and have a great time! That comes in at 70% cheaper than the average wedding in the UK.

        Being from the UK, I’m the last person that can afford (pardon the pun) to point the finger about classism in Thailand. I mean, the UK monarchy is hugely influential in politics; we know this from the letters that revealed lobbying of the government by Prince Charles. We have a House of Lords that is also hugely influential in the running of the country, and guess what, the members get their positions through privilege, not through a public vote. I could go on, but I’m sure you see my point here.

        Reply

  120. First off, thanks for a wonderful informative site. I read through each and every comment and realized many people here know a little of quite a bit about Thai cultures. Even though you base you findings on a few Thai natives, the comments fulfill many questions. Some are biased and some are subjective but overall, it’s nice to hear from all angles.

    My situation : I dated a Thai girl now, on and off for about 5 years in Canada. She is a permanent resident but not a Citizen yet. Lately, we lived together for about a year. She completed her Master’s on-line from a Bangkok University last week and did it on her own. She paid for it. Her parents, (farmers from Sisaket), are extremely proud of her and she’s been sending monies home for 7 years allowing the parents to accumulate over 60 rai’s of land and although she continues to send money every month to support the family.

    Never did the issue of Sin Sod come up during us being together other than recently when we got more serious and she decided that there was no future together since she had heard my opinion of Sin Sods. I didn’t know much about it and because she always told me we would marry in Canada and never have to worry about it unless we married in Thailand.

    Suddenly things have changed. Guess her mum, aunts and relatives are curious to know more about me and intentions. Of course this had caused more pressure on her and she now made a decision that I need to show face to her parents. Show them that I can support her.

    She told me her mum doesn’t care about Sin Sod or “show” but what was important was that if I visited her village, would be best to stay at a hotel apart and her mum advised it would be best to come visit as a “friend” so I wouldn’t be considered as a “Kee noch or Keniiow”. I found that offensive but she had explained the mum and family were protecting my identity as I am not these things. Hmmm… ???

    So now, when the conversation arose, she told me that although her mum doesn’t want Sin Sod, what she does expect is to show that I can support her daughter/family by buying land, (about 5 to 10 Rai), and build a small house in of course “her name”. I asked about 1 Rai and she said they don’t sell in those samller amounts and buying more would show that should anything occur between us, (split-up), then she would be taken care of with the farming of that land. She told me the reason Thai’s do this is because so many men go to Thailand and since there are so many women there, they run the risk of losing their man. Well, hmm ok,, all fine but isn’t that more expensive than a Sin Sod ? I researched the price of land in that region and it varies greatly. She even said we didn’t have to marry and that alone would show “face”. Isn’t getting married better so I can hire Siam Law firm and get some protection through a pre-nup ?

    I of course, well educated with a double masters myself and want anyone’s opinion of this type of agreement. Is it too much, fair , better etc ? I assume this would cost me about $500,000 bht. I of course questioned what if she left me afterwards and what commitment do I have from her and she got a little insulted and said, her family and her would are not the type to “screw” anyone and she’s brought up to marry only once and for life. She said this would be the place we can retire later on.

    Remember, I’ve know my gf for 5 years and helped her lots when we first met but of course I was never serious with her. To be honest, I was a playboy and since I have fallen in love. But love is blind and I don’t want to be a statistic as I’ve read about in all blogs.

    What’s your opinion as I know you are familiar with the Isan regions as well and you’re gf is from there too.

    Any opinion from knowledgeable people would be appreciated. Yes, I am nervous about this as I also do know how “quickly” Thais women can change and become real cold. I don’t meant o generalize but let’s be realistic. Security is important to Thai people.

    Thanks so much ! Really looking forward to constructive comments.

    Reply

    • Hi Trent,

      marriage in Thailand reflects the wealth and success of the bride and groom, and having lived in Canada and being a Master’s Graduate, this will be expected (by the extended family and locals) to be reflected in her ceremony.

      Whether foreigners like it or not, from the poorest to the richest families in Thailand, Sin Sod is a cultural aspect of the Thai wedding.

      From what you have said – it sounds like her parents don’t need the money, what with the land they have amassed and the money sent home by their daughter over the years. So surely you can just show an amount that reflects their daughter’s status and get it back afterwards?

      I know of poor, uneducated Thais who’ve had 200-300,000 Baht sin sod. For an educated girl marrying a foreigner, such an amount would be an insult to her family. In Thai culture, like the majority of other Asian countries and many Mediterranean Arab countries, you don’t marry down; you marry equal or up.

      Think of it this way: Imagine the whole village gossiping that their daughter’s wedding was akin to that of a local, poor, uneducated girl who’d sold her body in Pattaya and married a foreign man twice her age. That would be a huge loss of face for them; something they’d struggle to live with in a small-minded community.

      In their minds, if you want to marry their daughter, you must demonstrate that you are capable of taking care of her, that you are equal or greater status and a suitable match for their daughter. This must also be demonstrated to the rest of the family and the locals through sin sod, and as your GF has stated, acquisition of land or a building of a house.

      Regarding building the house, however, this would have been something in your GF’s mind for many years. My best Thai friend (girl) is single, yet she has built her parents a new home and plans to live there later in life. This has been a dream for her since she started her own business.

      One way many girls realise this dream is to marry a foreigner, and it has become somewhat of an expectation that the foreigner will move in to the area and build a big house. But this isn’t solely an expectation for foreigners. Any successful Thai woman marrying a Thai man would already have the intention of buying land and building a house in her home town.

      Even though you are probably, and rightly, thinking this is all so materialistic, consider that the expectation on Thai daughters from poorer families is huge. Sadly, many parents pressure their daughters into sending home more and more money, using the fact that “we brought you up and made a sacrifice” as a ongoing excuse to push the daughter to provide for her parents and elevate the status of the family within the community. Even sadder is that usually this money is mismanaged and squandered.

      Of course, this pressure and cultural expectation leads to many women marrying for money rather than love, as the respect for and demands of one’s family come before your own happiness.

      My wife was born in Isan, but luckily for me her attitude is very different. She can’t stand the whole “caring what everyone else thinks” and small-minded mentality of country people. This may be because she left the area in her teens to attend University and then work in Bangkok.

      She has some land in her hometown already, but we don’t want to live there so we won’t be building a house. We can stay in her mum’s house or a hotel when we visit. Land is a good investment where her mum lives because they are near the main road and opposite a Tesco, etc, but I’d rather invest in the UK where my daughter will most likely attend school.

      I am aware that some villagers probably gossip and say, why hasn’t that farang built a huge house and a 4×4, and why doesn’t he support her extended family and buy the neighbours whisky? But I/we don’t care. This is not a life I’d choose. I’m not anywhere near retired and have no intention of ever living in an Isan community where I have nothing in common with the people. It’s not in my nature to spend money to impress people and make fake friends – neither do I want my daughter around a mentality where the value of a person is equated by how much money they have. As a young family, we are happy living in a vibrant city like BKK or London.

      My advice is don’t do anything you aren’t comfortable with. You can’t buy land in your name. So it won’t be yours – unless your wife leases it to you for 30 years or you set up a company = hassle.

      Show what her parents want for the Sin Sod and agree that it will be given back. If they are short on cash, agree a “gift” to be given that you can comfortably afford to give.

      Also, your wife (future) must consider your culture too. Marriage is a compromise, and there must be a balance. For example, if you do the sin sod then she must accept that you don’t want to buy land. Moreover, if they want to save face, why can’t her parents just say you bought them some of that 60 rai they have already? Or why can’t they just say you’ve given them x amount of money? I mean, if it’s all for show, just tell the villagers what they want to hear, right?

      If your wife wants to build a house there; once you’re married, she can save up and do that down the line. Rome wasn’t built in a day, as they say. There’s no rush. Set your own pace and don’t do anything that deep down in your stomach just doesn’t feel right.

      If she loves you, she’ll respect your position and come to a agreement that is fair.

      Reply

    • Wow Chris, thanks so much for all your input. I would just like to mention a few things you wrote about.

      She does live in Canada but her masters is from a Thai University she completed on-line. Don’t think that makes a difference to them anyhow as they regard it as she’s educated.

      Her parents apparently are not asking for money as they say they don’t care about the “show” or sin sod. So they prefer I show them that I can take care of their daughter and buying land and building a house means more to them to save face as the villagers will see that I am not a Keenoch. Therefore showing the money and getting it back doesn’t seem to be an option for them.

      My gf wants me to visit her village so I can see how they live. Basically, they keep asking her for $ cause the farms keep flooding. What my gf did tell me yesterday was that she’s more interested in helping her mum as her first priority with upgrading or building them a new home. She didn’t say I had to help but who knows what the intentions are.

      You’re absolutely right about showing her parents that I am capable of taking care of her. That’s what the land and house is for. I don’t have to build the house right away but at least offer to buy land in her name. You may be absolutely right that building a house was in her mind from the beginning. What I find hard to understand is why has she never, in 5 years, when I had helped her out with support and free living accommodations, was not ever clearly mentioned. It was always about her doing it on her own as she has always been very independent.

      In the past when Sin Sod was discussed she always told me she didn’t agree with it and that she would just get married in Canada and she was tired of sending money to the parents. Her parents do not waste money in any way. They’ve successfully invested their daughters money wisely.

      As for marrying a foreigner and building a big house, she always did say that was not her intentions. She’s happy with a very small home on her land.

      It’s really scary when you mention that unfortunately these women marry for money rather than love since she had always loved me greatly. It was just in the past few months that all these expectations came into play.

      The problem in marrying for money rather than love is she, now being Americanized, can leave me for anyone else at any time if she married for money rather than love. This isn’t putting much trust but I had this same conversation and she said that the Thai women marry just once and for life. Uhuh, right. I’ve seen differently. She may have been referring to her upbringing. Recently her aunt wrote me and found out I was her bf and is now saying that the minimum amount expected to give to her parents would be $2 million Baht. My gf laughed at it and said was none of her business.

      I like what you said about it’s not your intention to spend money to impress people and make fake friends. Apparently, he family isn’t like that either as she tells me. But then again, why the pressure to buy land and build a home??

      I would probably prefer you suggestion to “show” the villagers the money and agree to take it back and gift what I can afford or what I presume is sufficient but what would that amount be ? Obviously, from your note 2 to 300,000.00 baht would be an insult but if I bought the land first, say 5 to 10 rai that would cost around 10 to 15k u.s.

      I can’t answer why the parents don’t tell the villagers that I was part of the acquisitions to help buy the 60 rai. After all, if she wasn’t living rent free with me, she wouldn’t be able to send that money home. She only made around $16 to 25k here in Canada.

      She does want me to visit first to see if I would even like her village to live later on.

      You summed it up well when you mentioned that “if” she does love me, she’ll respect my position and come to an agreement that is fair”. I can tell you that things have changed rapidly in the last 4 to 5 months and then the pressure and demands came about.

      Thanks so much again for all your advice. You are pretty much on the ball with their thinking and are absolutely correct on what I read and how they feel. The question now becomes, how sincere is she and thinking I’ve known her well for so long I find it amazing how quickly things can change.

      Did I mention she also said that if I bought the land we really didn’t have to get married right away. That blew me away cause I told her don’t you want to get married and she said it’s every girl’s dream and of course but doesn’t want to pressure me.. lol

      Thanks !!!
      Trent.

      Reply

      • It seems pretty clear that the parents and family are piling on the pressure. As you said, previously she was living her life independently and free of the small-minded village mentality of showing off one’s wealth. She has also said that she is tired of sending her parents money; another indication that she has been under pressure to do so.

        Unfortunately, this is the case for so many Thai women, particularly from the Northeast where the culture puts terrific pressure on daughters to provide for their parents – at any cost.

        You are experiencing a contradiction of the way she was previously and the things she is saying now, all of which relate to the pressure the family are piling on.

        I can guarantee you they are saying things like; “Another girl we know married a foreigner and he bought X,Y,Z”. “Your boyfriend has to understand our culture”.

        All this is of course self-serving, and the fact that your GF is in a genuine, loving relationship is secondary in importance to the prospect of becoming wealthier.

        Sit down with your GF and work out what the minimum is you two have to do to get her parents off her back and for you to move forward and have a great life together. My advice is not to move to her home town, if you want to be happy, that is 🙂

        All the best.

        Reply

  121. Hi guys

    Could some1 pls tell me the exact process for marrying a thai girl. Do I have to go to Thailand first, sign papers then do the same here in the uk? I’m so confused! My lady is here in the uk on a holiday visa at the moment but are having issues about what to do next!

    Many thanks

    Reply

  122. i know nothing, all i want to do is marry a Thia girl who is here on a student visa, she has a daughter that’s abandon if Thailand and is looking for a man to marry to stay in Australia. to be honest she is hard working and very affection to wards me, i suspect she could be using a smoke screen so.. ill run my own way round the relationship and see how she fairs after a few months, if i see she is genuine and true full and helps me get to where i wanna be in life i am more then happy to fork out cash on her family etc call it what ya will… but i am the boss and she will serve me and my family like her own including any children we may have. end of the day if i am the head of this elephant she better look after my trunk!

    Reply

  123. Sin sod has always been part of our culture. You should do proper research on thai culture before you marry a thai woman. I am thai so is my wife, we both from bangkok and married after university 10 year ago. I paid 1m baht sin sod but many of my friends pay more. It depends on what the family want and also whether you get it back or it’s kept in a fund for you future or your children future or for your wife in case you leave her. Sin sod is not buying a wife it represent family’s status and status of the woman. It also is known as mother’s milk in poorer families to return some money for the mum and dad for using all their money to educate and raise their daughter.

    There are many aspects to this history which the article is good to point out. Don’t judge thailand and get angry because of our tradition. If you don’t like it why marry with thai? Thank you. Ekachai.

    Reply

    • Thank you for sharing your story Ekachai. It’s great to get a cultural overview from a native Thai person’s perspective. Hopefully this should put an end to the misguided speculation from “us foreigners” 🙂

      Reply

  124. Can I simply say what a relief to discover an individual who truly knows what they are talking about on when it comes to Sin Sod.
    More and more people need to read this instead of the BS you find on ThaiVisa
    Keep up the good work representing the REAL Thailand!

    Reply

  126. My girlfriend has suggested that I pay an amount not less than 400,000 baht when we get engaged. From what I have read so far Thais generally don’t get engaged so I find this confusing. The lump sum I interpret as the sin sod which I believed to be part of the wedding. Am I right to be concerned?

    Reply

    • Hi Novak,

      The Thai engagement ceremony is called Thong Mum, which literally translates as “gold giving”. The ceremony is attended by the bride and groom’s parents and some close family and friends. It is not necessary to give money.

      Not all Thais have this engagement ceremony anymore; my wife and I didn’t have one.

      Sin Sod is not presented on this day, however, as the name of this engagement ceremony suggests, gold has historically been given by the groom to the bride.

      In the modern day, all sorts of gifts exchange hands. I know of one rich Thai guy from the south who got engaged to a well-to-do girl from Kalasin and gave her a car and bought her a condo. Excessive, perhaps, but gifts on these occasions are relative to wealth in Thailand.

      My advice would be to give gold as a gift, as this is the best way to appropriate the tradition. Bear in mind, however, that it must be an even number of baht (a baht is the unit of measure for Thai gold. One baht = 1/2 troy ounce). You may choose to give this in the form of a necklace or bracelet.

      Hope this helps.

      Reply

  127. I am an interesting case. I have been with my girl for almost 5 years and we studied in Thailand together. I’m 26 and she’s 22.

    My gf received 10K from her mother each month. She paid about 6K for our apartment and I paid for food and household stuff (so anywhere from 6K-10K) per month.

    Now we live in BKK and both work. We go halfies for the apartment bill and I pay for dinner.

    Her whole family all date foreigners and none of them like Thai guys for various reasons. I don’t know what the previous dowry’s for her family were and I will let you know in my following post after reading this. I haven’t asked my gf about this at all but now after reading this I’d really love to know. But there’s at least 5 of us dating/married into my gf’s mother’s side alone. Those couples mostly live together and have normal lives together – her family really are just normal.

    I don’t really expect to pay anything as my gf’s mother just got married to a British doctor. I will just promise to take care of my gf’s mother if for some reason in the future she can’t support herself. I’ll probably put anything on the table for sin sod, but I’ll want it all back and I’ll pay for the wedding. That’s what I am thinking my offer will be. Anyone have any further suggestions ?

    Oh and my gf studied in an international program with me, she could easily work or even study again in my country as I am guessing her IELTS score would be at the least 6.5 although possibly even 7 to 8.5 – my gf only has gaps in ADVANCED English vocabulary. (I teach IELTS now so I am quite certain about this) I will probably have to take care of getting her to my country too.

    You old farts should honestly just come here as a sex tourist for sex, if that is what you are looking for. Don’t put sex and love together. If you really are looking for love, be patient, be quick to say no to things, don’t give in. Let her know you’ll take care of her without putting money out there. Don’t fall in love and prepare to look for a new girl, the chase is so much fun I in fact miss it so much. I am young and so many girls look at me. If you are young here, then never stick with one girl, trust me, you’ll find the next one only a few moments later.

    Reply

    • Hi Mattias, thanks for posting your story.

      Not sure if you’re trolling here, but straight off the bat I’ll tell you that we’re not all “old farts”, and not everyone comes here as a sex tourist. Personally, I’m 35, married with a child, and have lived here for 6 years. Even when I’m 65, I doubt I’ll consider myself an old fart – life is to be lived, no matter your age.

      If your GFs family is well off, then I’m sure they won’t ask to keep the Sin Sod, although, if they are of good standing then perhaps you’ll be asked to “show” a reasonable amount.

      I wouldn’t rush in, though. It sounds to me like you aren’t quite ready for marriage. I quote your last few sentences; “Don’t fall in love and prepare to look for a new girl, the chase is so much fun I in fact miss it so much. I am young and so many girls look at me. If you are young here, then never stick with one girl, trust me, you’ll find the next one only a few moments later.”

      This feeling that you are too young and stopping yourself from exploiting these opportunities with all these girls that look at you will only grow stronger once you are married, no?

      Best of luck. Let us know what happens.

      Reply

      • Yes not everyone here is an old fart, but I’m just talking about the old ones, I usually see the older guys giving money to Thai girls more so than younger Farang. But this point definitely really does go out to everyone.

        Don’t confuse sex and love. If you want your gf to give you sex, but she doesn’t give it to you and asks then money, then you must separate ‘love’ and ‘lust’ and just break up with her. Some people just try so hard to hold on….. with a few bank notes to assist that.

        If you want sex here, then be a sex tourist until you do find someone you love and everything is okay.
        Of course nobody wants to be labelled a sex tourist, it’s rude, but it’s technically true to be realistic here.

        Okay here’s what happened in her family:
        1. My gf’s mother’s first husband. 50K [early 1990’s so who even knows how much that is in today’s money]
        1. My gf’s mother got married and the husband didn’t pay anything.. and he’s a British doctor.. however my gf’s grandparents have deceased anyway. [2014]
        2. My gf’s mother’s sister got married for a 100K sin sod (Japanese man) [about 7 years ago] – 1st Marriage
        3. My gf’s cousin got married for a 1 Million sin sod (Japanese man) [2 years ago] – 2nd Marriage!!

        My gf said I would have to ask the mother one day 😀

        Yeah I don’t plan on getting married till I’m 30 anyway!

        I think I would like to pursue to new girl ; but only for the sex. My gf is perfect though, I don’t think I could find anyone better than her, so I must stick with her.

        Reply

    • I’m also not an old fart, in fact our stories are quite similar. I’m 26 and my girlfriend is 23. We also met through studying together in an international program. I’m interested to know what your girlfriend expects and what her family has received recently. I personally would like to pay something reasonable as a show of respect to the parents, which I think my girlfriend would also very much appreciate. For me, though, it’s just a matter of what I can afford.

      Reply

    • Hi Matthias,
      I hope you are still enjoying your youth and finding a girl around every corner. Just remember it is that attitude which led to many men becoming the ” old farts” you mention.

      Dave.

      (old fart 61 wife 48 living between UK and Thailand)

      Reply

  128. I just want to provide a little bit of a counterpoint to this article, which seems to suggest that a few hundred thousand baht is the upper end of what sin sod might be. The other comments might already do this, but I unfortunately didn’t have time to read through them all.

    My Thai girlfriend’s aunt got married within the past couple years
    (to a Thai man) and sin sod was about 1 million baht cash as well as what I believe was a similar value of gold and a diamond ring (for a total value of around 2 million baht). I asked for confirmation of the amount of gold, and I’ll post again here if I remember once I find out. Her aunt has a master’s degree and was never married before. I’m not sure how old she was at the time.

    Unfortunately for me, this has set somewhat of a precedent, at least in my girlfriend’s mind.

    Reply

    • Hi Ben, I’m pretty sure I didn’t say that was the upper end; it most certainly isn’t. One of my key points was that a large number of foreigners are misguided in their perception of how much Sin Sod Thais pay. Many foreigners believe Sin Sod is some invented tradition to rip off the “farang”, when in truth foreigners get away, in most cases, with paying far less than Thai guys.

      Of course, in the case of poorer families, 100,000-200,000 is normal. But in the middle and upper classes, 1M Baht is quite common. And then there’s the gold, as you pointed out.

      If a woman is unmarried, educated to university level or beyond (good job or own business), and has no children, it’s unlikely a Thai Sin Sod will be less than 1 Million Baht in the current climate.

      Of course, it’s up to the individuals and families involved to decide what’s appropriate. It really does vary from situation to situation, though, with some women, like a good friend of mine, not wanting Sin Sod to be a part of the wedding at all.

      Reply

  129. Hi looking for a little advice
    I am planning to marry my Thai girlfriend legally but I have been married before in the UK to a British Citizen.
    My divorce will be granted in the next few weeks even though we have been separated for a number of years.
    However I have read somewhere that the Thai law states that if a person has been married before there has to be 310 days from the divorce date before you can re marry?
    Does anyone know is this true and is it just for Thais marrying in or is it for westerners marrying Thais ?
    Look forward to your response
    Thanks

    Reply

  130. Hi. I have a Thai girlfriend for about a year now. Her family have found out about the relationship and have since been trying to marry her off to a rich Thai man. She is well educated, financially very secure and well known Thai family name. They have requested I show 30 million baht Sin Sod or they will not allow it to happen, which of course I do not have. She has fought with her family and does not have contact with them anymore because they will not accept me. We are both late thirties. Do you think there is any way I can get her family to accept me without being able to afford the Sin Sod?

    Reply

    • I am sure they have set the price that high in the hope the problem (you, unfortunately) goes away. Many elite Thais, as with high society families in many countries around the world, do not want their bloodline diluted by foreign blood, and don’t want to have to go through the loss of face that comes with letting ones daughter marry a foreigner who isn’t super rich as they are.

      If your GF has already cut contact then she will probably lose her inheritance and all respect from her extended family and other families she grew up around. Disrespecting your parents, even when they are clearly wrong and unreasonable, is a big no-no in Thai culture.

      If I were you, and her parents speak English; I’d go to visit them and try to lean on their conscience and ethical side, if they have one. Explain that money cannot buy happiness, and their daughter’s happiness should be their priority as it is yours. Although be prepared for them to say that they don’t want her marrying a foreigner, period, and that you don’t understand Thai culture.

      All said and done, considering Thai women of 25 are considered old not to be married, you’d think they’d be pleased that at nearly 40 she has finally found someone she loves and wants to marry.

      Reply

  131. Hi, a good article you wrote. I think if men meet Thai women outside Pattaya, Phuket, and Nana the women are nearly certainly less money grubbing and shysterish, in regards to the sin sod. But, I have a sin sod issue. How does everything change if the man is taking the woman to the West from Thailand (or 3rd world to 1st, as some may say). If they marry and move to say America, UK, Australia, wherever the woman will get better access to health care, higher paying jobs, safer neighborhoods (arguably), better higher education opportunities for the kids, etc. Would it be selfish for the man to say, “you moving out West IS a sin sod?” I believe if they live in Thailand your article is spot on though. Thanks!

    Reply

    • Hi James,

      That wouldn’t be a substitute for Sin Sod because the basis of the tradition is to repay the mother/parents for the investment in their daughter (the mother’s milk). Historically it was considered that when a girl married an able working member was taken out of the family, so essentially the sin sod is a financial replacement. It has also served as a form of financial protection for the bride, should her husband leave her and not contribute to looking after his offspring, as there is no child maintenance law enforced in Thailand.

      Of course the tradition is in some disarray, with many families choosing to squander the money on the biggest house they can buy to show off to friends, or worse, drinking, gambling and partying the money away. Many families succumb to the begging hands of relative who want to “borrow” from the windfall. Sadly these are the problems that arise when a poor family suddenly come into a large lump sum of money – they don’t know how to handle it.

      An already well-off family will usually give the money back, invest it for the daughter and leave it in inheritance or perhaps build the newly weds a house.

      I understand where you are coming from, but sin sod is shown at the wedding. There are a number of meanings attached to its presense, as you will have read in the post. You can’t say, “Oh, I’ll be paying for us to live in the US, so I’m not paying sin sod”.

      Also consider that Thailand has very good schools in the private sector, and extremely good hospitals. If you have the money, one’s life in Thailand can be of far higher quality than in the US or UK.

      Moreover, marrying someone’s daughter, you’ll be expected to provide the best life for her you can. So if this means going abroad then as the husband that’s what you must do. This isn’t exclusive to Thailand; this is the case if you marry into most cultures, particularly Asian. We can’t say, “Oh, she’d have had a rubbish life without me. I’m doing her a favour, so I shouldn’t haven’t to pay sin sod”. We marry out of love not pity or charity, right?

      Sin sod (sin sot) is a very specific tradition, heavily engrained in Thai culture and deeply misunderstood by foreigners. One reason is that it’s multi-dimensional; it represents many things – most of which aren’t discussed. It reflects on the bride, the groom and the family. It has also taken on a different face in the modern era, which has contributed to misunderstanding. However, for Thai people it remains clear because they grow up with this aspect of their culture from a young age. From the upper echelons of society down to rural farming families, sin sod is still very much a part of a wedding ceremony. Of course some place more importance on it than others, some don’t see its relevance, and some abuse the opportunity, but it cannot be offset or replaced by any other financial (future) incentive.

      Reply

  132. Thai girls only look out for themselves and their families… everyone else, including any stupid husband or boyfriend comes last and is usually only there to support her dumb family and herself.

    Any Thai girl who is looking to exclusively marry a foreigner is only doing so because she wants money and a better life for her family and herself at your expense.

    Reply

    • Fred,

      What about a Thai woman who marries a foreigner because she has feelings for him?
      What about a Thai woman who could marry a Thai guy and be better off but chooses a foreigner?
      What about a Thai woman who didn’t search for a foreigner, and doesn’t hold a preference for foreigners, but was pursued by one who didn’t give up despite her numerous rejections?
      What about a Thai woman who refuses to conform to cultural and societal expectations and goes out into the world to express her individuality, and finds that the type of partner who will enable her to be a free-thinking, independent woman of the world is a foreigner?

      In my friendship circle I know of all these examples.

      I’m guessing you’ve been hurt Fred?

      Reply

        • 1000% agreed, based on experience. While there will be rare exceptions, do not trust a single word that comes from a Thai woman’s mouth, including “I love you soooo much.” They will discard you on the trash heap with zero notice in order to “trade up” to gain status and face. The concept of “love” to many, many Thai women is no different than flipping a light switch on or off – it’s simply a convenience rather than an actual emotional attachment.

          Reply

          • This comment tells a lot about you, and very little about Thai women. With your completely distorted, disrespectful and misogynic views upon Thai women, why the hell are you wasting pixels in a comment section about Thai marriage traditions?

            If Thai women “will discard you on the trash heap with zero notice in order to “trade up” to gain status and face” then maybe… just maybe, this says more about what kind of a “man” you are and very little about Thai women in general.

            Everybody understands what “experience” you base your assumptions upon, so why not just accept the fact that your best chance of spending any time with a Thai woman is to keep taking advantage of being a scumbag 1st worlder trying to score in a 3rd world country, and pay a poor Isaan girl out of a bar?

            Reply

  133. Hi. Fred
    Nice start and introduction!
    Just a couple of questions as you seem to be an expert in a one line statement.
    1/ do you live in Thailand ?
    2/ have you ever been married to Thai or to anyone for that matter?
    3/ have you ever payed for Sex?
    4/ could you please advise the best country to find a woman to marry that won’t cost anything and that the woman will be truthful and faithful ?
    As you are the expert on Thai woman and anyone marrying them I look forward to reading your answers.
    In my opinion you get good and bad people in any country in any Race and no matter if you pay for Sex or for marriage or find true love it all costs you money in the long run.
    The difference is the smart people identify the scammers and stay away from them.
    Yes there are some Thai girls that play games and use you for money but I also see many western men play games with Thai people and pull on their heart strings.
    Obviously a girl of 18 with a man of 60 is probably not with him for the right reason but if it makes him happy what is the harm in it.
    Usually the only fools are not the ones that marry Thais they are the ones that come on holiday looking for love without doing the research or the people that think they can win a Thai girl over because they think she may have little education or the people that make one line comments on websites without explaining their reasons

    Reply

    • Yes there are some Thai girls that play games and use you for money but I also see many western men play games with Thai people and pull on their heart strings.

      This is very true and something seldom mentioned. I have witnessed a lot of foreign guys play cruelly with the hearts and good nature of Thai women, which is something seldom mentioned. The focus is always on the Thai woman that burned the foreign guy.

      Reply

  135. Lots of understandable arguments guys. I feel however that since Thailand is truly in need of change and reform, it is legitimate to question and even express some constructive criticism towards what the above refers to as ‘culture’. If there was perhaps less fixation on this so-called ‘culture’ the world and Thailand might well be a more peaceful place. Thailand is on the brink of civil war and this has to do with their fixation on the values of ‘culture’. Best regards, Andy

    Reply

    • Andrew, your are obviously nowhere near Thailand and have probably been watching or reading far to much foreign media with such a ridiculous statement as “Thailand is on the brink of civil war “, a little too much sensationalism I would think!

      The truth in Thailand is pretty much as normal and outside of a handful of people standing around a few intersections in Bangkok life and culture in Thailand is far and wide peaceful and well balanced.

      If everyone was to remove the cultural aspects from their lives life would become mundane and somewhat “westernised” where most weddings are more about matching colours and hens nights than a meaningful celebration of commitment.

      Reply

  136. Reading through this post I felt the urge to share my story so that there is a more recent account of marriage in Thailand as a farang(this post was started in 2011 and it is now 2014 haha.) First of all I want to point out that weddings nowadays are averaging more than 20,000 US$ and if you factor in the cost of living/prices in Thailand the marriage ceremony itself should only be about $5-7,000. Add in a nice week long honeymoon trip to the southern beaches staying at a 4* hotel and thats another 2-3k. So right off the bat you are already -10,000$ compared to a marriage in the US. That 10,000$ is roughly equal to just over 320,000 baht at today’s exchange rate so that right there is a respectable sin sod for an average Thai groom to an educated woman who is from a good family. Now, that is just in the case of a wedding based on the average price of a wedding back at home (I am assuming that the price of a wedding in UK and Australia and the like are similar to US price ranges.) So if you think of it that way and just as part of the wedding cost it should make foreigners just a little bit happier haha, I know that thinking that way has helped me.
    In my case, since I am getting married in less than two weeks I have been reading every article that I possibly could to determine that the price that I am paying is respectable but not totally insane. To start with, the woman that I am marrying is from a very high class village family which I had no idea of until I met them and they started giving me a tour of their orchards and stores (note the plural on both of those, freaked me out haha,) she has a BA in business from one of the top 3 colleges in Thailand, and has never been married or had kids.
    The marriage ceremony and honeymoon themselves are as I said above, about 7,000$ and 2-3,000$ respectively. Since I wanted to have some semblance to an American wedding even though the ceremony itself is purely traditional Thai, I also proposed with a ring (after discussing with the parents of course which is rather difficult to do when neither of you speak the same language lol) and also bought a 10,000$ wedding ring. As to the question of my sin sod, her parents gave me the whole we don’t need a sin sod line which typically is your invitation to offer up a sum and guess if you were right based on their look so at first I was leaning towards about 300,000 baht because I figured the 10k ring and 10k in cash equaled out to be around 600,000 baht together. But thinking on it further I decided on 400,000 baht to make sure that it would not be an embarrassment just in case the people in the village did not do the mental addition of the ring. I have found in my research that due to the wedding ring being a mainly a western tradition normally in Thai culture it is not seen and therefore outside the normal thought process. And before anyone freaks out on me for that statement that is a direct quote from my future wife’s best friend.
    And finally for the disclaimer haha, I know that I made a lot of generalizations about Thai thought and culture so I want to make clear that this is purely based on my experience this past year with many questions about what both mine and my fiancee’s friends thoughts on the matter were. Also, I am aware that some of the readers may think of me as being ripped off, but I just want to say that I believe that it is all completely worth it to me and that I truly love her. To finish, my experience could be said to be slightly unique in that I did not meet her in Thailand like most others, I met her during high school when she visited for a year as an exchange student and afterwards we corresponded for over 10 years with daily emails, which changed to phone calls and then skype when that was invented lol, and many visits in between before deciding to marry. I really hope that this post is helpful to others that are interested in marrying. 🙂

    Reply

    • Hi Mitchell,
      I enjoyed your reasoned and educated essay on sin sod. You seem to really want to understand the Thai culture and be on good terms with your in-laws. You wrote this article prior to getting married. My question is: How did it work out?
      I have met a young lady on line who is a 25 year old nanny, living near Portland, Oregon. She is very cute, university-educated, worked at a bank call center for awhile before taking the 3 month nanny course which got her the job in the US. Her English is very good. She comes from Nong Khai Provence. Her parents are middle class rice and rubber tree farmers. She has one sister who is at the university studying to be a school teacher.
      I am a 69 year old man in good shape, university educated and in the upper 20% of US households in terms of wealth, but certainly not super wealthy. I guess a better way of saying it is that I am comfortable, but not rich. I relate this to you because, even though my GF and I have only known each other about 3 months, we are talking about marriage and I need your help on the issue of sin sod.
      How did things with your inlaws work out? I thought that your reasoning was sound. In US dollars, I assume you paid about $22K total for the sin sod, the wedding costs, and the honeymoon. Then you added about $10k for jewelry, is this correct? Total: about $32K in US dollars.
      I am very interested in how things went as I believe our GF are from the same social-economic class. Do you think that there would be more asked because I am much older?
      My GF and I have briefly talked about the sin sod. Her opening statement was 5m baht, went down to 2m baht without any negotiation. After I caught my breath, I side-stepped the issue by saying that I would probably hire a negotiator to met with the parents for the sin sod talk. After all, I am older than her parents. I don’t want to get off on the wrong foot with them.
      Before reading your article, I was thinking $10K plus jewelry for the sin sod. She, on the other hand, opened with $65K because she was born on Feb. 2. Her mother dreamed, therefore, that 2 M. baht ($65K) would be a good price. Thank god, she wasn’t born on the 10th!
      I hope that I have given you enough information to help me out. I really would like to know how your talk with the parents went. Thank you for your time.
      Guy Moyer

      Reply

      • Why on earth would a

        69 year old man in good shape, university educated and in the upper 20% of US households in terms of wealth

        think that it is a good idea to marry a woman 44 years his junior, let alone someone from a different culture?

        You arguably have around a decade of life left to live, your health and strength will decline as you get older whereas a woman who is now 25 will be entering the prime of her life.

        You need to take a good look at just what sort of life you will be giving the young lady and stop thinking about yourself!

        Reply

        • Sounds like they are both in it for selfish reasons. The more time I spend around Thai women the less attractive they become. I am female and not looking to marry one, I speak as observing people generally. Recently a farang I know became engaged to a Thai girl from the northeast. She is studying something, is not that bright, not that attractive. When they go anywhere she is always nagging him to go home. She was supposed to finish her studies but got “accidentally pregnant”. Hmm. Money was demanded by the parents, the farang negotiated it down by saying there was a baby coming. I don’t know the exact amount, but he was not happy. He is not that bright either.
          I’m sure there are some genuine Thai women, but most of the ones I’ve met are manipulative and extremely dull to talk to as they know nothing about anything, but they have a certain cunning when it comes to playing men for cash. I’ve seen so many couples – ageing farang with girl in hotpants, saying nothing to each other. I am on the bus or whatever, he speaks to me starved for conversation, she sits there fuming and plotting how to stab me. Another farang I know had a brief thing with a Thai woman, he explained his financial situation and what he could do for her, she demanded more and he ended up locking her in a bathroom in a hotel and running way. Which is not nice, but having seen how possessive Thai women can and how much screaming they can do (another silly farang friend involved with a bar girl), I don’t blame him.
          I really do not see the fascination. As for supporting their family to the end of time – I wouldn’t do it. A friend of mine married a Cambodian and he was always forking over money to the clan and they were not appreciative, they just wanted more (he must have spent upwards of $80,000 paying off the house, creating an income scheme for the parents, the big party, Chinese New Year, scooters, housekeeper, upkeep of the drunken brother’s baby after his wife left him, etc). I know Cambodian/Thai culture is not the same, but there is a similar attachment to face. My friend’s wife was lovely, but the family was a nightmare. He did so much for them and they treated him very disrespectfully, and me also (as his guest). It was an eye-opener.

          Reply

      • Your comment is awaiting moderation.

        I agree with Lloyd.

        Have you really thought this through? What, if anything, do you have in common with a girl that could be your granddaughter? Have you considered that this isn’t what she wants, but what her greedy parents want; hoping you won’t see out the next decade, so that your wife (their daughter) can cash in your estate.

        Thing is, if you live another 30 years, the poor girl becomes a maid/home help for you and has her best years taken from her.

        It’s all so transactional, how can you expect to gain any happiness from this arrangement?

        Reply

  137. But the biggest question is how can you tell what kind of Thai lady you have met? My lady has a good but not exceptional job, her own house (paying a mortgage I think), has a masters degree and her children are grown (one married the other in final year of Uni). Oh, and she lives not far from a large University City in the Northeast. I want to believe she is genuine and interested in me for who I am not just as a walking ATM (which I would struggle to be in any case). I will obviously continue to chat with her until I am able to get out there and will update this after I have actually been to TL. Reading all these posts, Stickman’s commentary and various other websites has done little to allay my fears, but hope springs eternal they say and I will continue to believe she is really genuine unless proved otherwise. I will not be rushing into anything, but will see what develops.

    And a final word… if she turns out to be everything she seems then I would not let the small matter of a few thousand quid sin sod get in the way! (lets face it 200,000 baht is less than £4k!!! and if you ain’t got that what the hell are you doing thinking of getting married and trying to support a family!)

    Reply

  138. Hi, and thanks for a very interesting blog. I decided to look on a Thai dating site after some bad experiences with a couple of Brit G/F following my divorce 4 years ago. I have spoken to and Skyped with a Thai lady who is a few years younger than me, but actually older than my previous 2 English g/f. I have booked a flight to Thailand to visit her in 3 months time (to fit with my work holidays).

    Just to contribute to the debate… I was married for over 30 years and in the divorce settlement I gave my ex wife nearly £200,000 in pension funds and 60,000 from the equity in the house. I am thus left with a living income, but by no means wealthy. On retirement I will be no more than comfortable. The concept of a Bride price or sin sod (sic!) is not easy to swallow, but perhaps if I had paid that when I married I would not have subsequently paid out such a significant amount on divorce!!!

    But the biggest question is how can you tell what kind of Thai lady you have met? My lady has a good but not exceptional job, her own house (paying a mortgage I think), has a masters degree and her children are grown (one married the other in final year of Uni). Oh, and she lives not far from a large University City in the Northeast. I want to believe she is genuine and interested in me for who I am not just as a walking ATM (which I would struggle to be in any case). I will obviously continue to chat with her until I am able to get out there and will update this after I have actually been to TL. Reading all these posts, Stickman’s commentary and various other websites has done little to allay my fears, but hope springs eternal they say and I will continue to believe she is really genuine unless proved otherwise. I will not be rushing into anything, but will see what develops.

    And a final word… if she turns out to be everything she seems then I would not let the small matter of a few thousand quid sin sod get in the way! (lets face it 200,000 baht is less than £4k!!! and if you ain’t got that what the hell are you doing thinking of getting married and trying to support a family!)

    Reply

    • Hi Steve, just like online dating in any country, in my opinion you need to exercise caution. People can easily lie and say they are someone they aren’t. People can tell you what they think they want you to hear. My advice is to be very careful and play your cards close to your chest. As you would dating in the UK, go slowly and don’t do anything you wouldn’t do in your home country. There are Thai women solely interested in money, and indeed the horror stories are abundant online – particularly on blog like Stickman’s. But there are also genuine women looking for a great guy to settle down with. I would go there and enjoy the holiday, get to know each other with an open mind. But one thing I would say is do your homework on Thai culture. You will need this knowledge going forward if you maintain the relationship. Also consider that culture can differ depending on region. For example, certain customs and traditions you will find in the Northeast (Isaan) region will be quite different to those you find in central Thailand.

      Lastly, you rarely hear about the success stories because rarely do those in happy relationships post on forums and blogs about how happy they are. But for every horror story you read online, rest assured there are 100 success stories.

      Reply

  139. I have been married to a Thai lady for 2 years now. Her parents are dead and she has 2 children from a previous relationship (drunk Thai boy) – I met her 5 years ago, she has never worked down south (no pun intended) she has never been south of Chiang Rai.
    Marriage ceremony at home in a small village – no sin sod. Could not be happier.

    Reply

  141. Wow….after reading some pretty terrible experiences here I feel like my experience wasnt bad at all. Having lived in Bkk for the last 10 years, I dated all kinds of chicks before meeting my fiance….if I ever felt I was being treated as a walking ATM I dumped em quick…that is probably the best advice I can give anyone on dating Thai women, only date educated women that have a JOB….a verifiable one.

    My fiance and I have been together for 2 years. She is a university educated, former Thai pop star, fluent in English. Her family are cool people and have never asked me for anything. They are not rich, but both parents have government retirement income and some land and 2 homes. My Fiance makes from 70-90k /month working with me.

    I am certainly not a rich guy but I’m not broke either, so I wasnt totally against the idea of sin sot but I didnt really know what to expect either. So just yesterday here is how it went: We went to her parents house to get their blessing….I spoke Thai with them the entire time(not fluent but getting there)…this is a big deal for them, they say the fact that I can communicate with them shows I care about their country and culture. First I spoke, telling them I wanted to be engaged to their daughter, what a fantastic woman she is, our future plans etc. At this point the mother asks questions about my family etc. They basically say they think I’m a good guy and they accept me. At this time I ask them how much do they want for sin sot. Mom says whatever I want to give is fine, but she does ask 5 baht of gold and a ring for the ceremony(buying tommorow!) After talking it over with my girl the night before she says 300k should be fine. Mom says this is fine…..but knowing a little bit about the face thing I offered to show 1 million at the wedding…. 700k will be returned to me directly after the wedding. We then offered a gift to mom and dad and went out for lunch.

    I can say this….have the sin sod conversation with the parents BEFORE you get legally married at the amphoe.

    So I guess I was lucky, I got a great gal…….sorry but if you mess around and wanna marry a scheming bar girl you are asking for trouble.

    Reply

  142. I think this is useful reading from Stickman:-

    “…be advised even by strangers, who have proved what sufferings await you, and shake your hands of this mad undertaking.”

    The quote above was a warning given to Anna Leonowans before taking a job as a governess at the Siamese court in the mid-19th century. Her book, of course, was the inspiration for “Anna and the King.” Her memoirs should be required reading for every farang who comes to Thailand. The Thais hate her and the book is banned. Do you know why? Because she describes them perfectly.

    Let me say this straight out: If you are a farang, you don’t have to pay sin soht. Let me say this again: If you are a farang, you don’t have to pay sin soht. Do you know why you don’t have to pay? You are not Thai.

    In the past, when a Thai couple got married, the wife’s parents would donate land to the couple, and the sin soht money donated by the groom’s parents was used to build a house or start a household. Or the money was returned to the couple when they had their first baby. It was money to be held in a kind of escrow for the couple. It wasn’t used to support the wife’s parents. And if the wife caused the marriage to break up, the man had every right to get his money/property back. People need to remember that Thailand is a developing country. The notion of throwing around cash as part of sin soht is a fairly new phenomena. Just as in the case of whores, farang pay far too much money for the type of women they are procuring for marriage. Of course, paying something for nothing is always too much when you should be getting it for free. Also, this whole notion of paying a dowry for a Thai woman is something akin to Thais celebrating Halloween or Christmas. Paying a dowry for a woman is a Chinese tradition. It isn’t even Thai. So basically you have a bunch of farang guys running around trying to be Chinese when they think they are being Thai. Pretty fxxxing absurd.

    If your Thai woman is reasonable and understanding (which is usually never) she will neither expect nor will demand sin soht– and neither will her parents. But unfortunately, there are some Thai women, mostly whores and gold diggers, who will take advantage of a farang’s ignorance of Thai culture in order to con them out of some money.

    I asked a Thai female friend of mine about this issue. This is what she said: “Yeah, there are many stupid farang out there. They marry these bad girls who tell that they have to pay sin soht just to get some money out of them. Foreigners don’t have to pay if they don’t want to. They can, but they are not required to. It is really up to them.” I asked her: “Did your dad pay?” She laughed: “He paid, but not much. And he got it back.” I asked: “Do you support your parents?” She laughed and said: “Support my parents? They are both doctors. They have other businesses on the side. They have thousands of rai of land. They still give me money and I still live at home. I have great parents.” I asked: “If you got married, would you expect your husband to financially support your parents in their old age?” She said: “Why you ask these questions? You want to get married?” Laughter. “If anything happened to my parents, I have my own money to take care of them.” Of course, my friend is from the higher echelons of Thai society, but of all the modern, educated Thai women with real jobs that I know, none of them cares about sin soht, and none of them expect farang to pay.

    If a Thai woman ever tells you that you must pay sin soht to her because it is Thai culture, especially if she is a whore, run like the wind. Here is a little piece of advice to farang if they want to save themselves a lot of grief and heartache: Dump any Thai girl who says, “If you don’t give me money, you don’t love me.” Your Thai woman neither loves nor respects you if she expects a cash bonus just for the privilege of being in her presence (or out of her presence in a foreign country or on the internet). Indeed, a farang should never make an important life decision based on a Thai woman crying or throwing a fit. This is a trick that they use to manipulate men. Above all, don’t ever let a Thai girl give you an ultimatum. If she says, “It is me or the highway.” You always take the highway. Thai chicks are master manipulators and guilt trip artists. Once a Thai chick starts to give a farang a song and dance about his Thai cultural (financial) obligations towards her and her parents, he should run and run away fast, because her only purpose is to con him out of some dough. You don’t need to feel guilty or like a cheapskate because you didn’t fall for your future wife’s manipulation. And if you want to pay sin soht to give your in-laws’ face, or to give your wife face, or to look like a big shot in front of your Thai wedding guests, do yourself a favor and forget about it, because nobody will care once the wedding is over. The Buddha taught that nothing is permanent. Whatever goodwill you think you’ve scored by doling out tons of money and gold for your bride won’t last. It won’t earn you love, face, or respect. If she tries to convince you otherwise, that is an illusion your chick has created so that she can look good and feel clever in front of others about the big fish she has just caught. As the Thais say: “Marnya ying lem roi gueen.” (A wise woman has a hundred plows.) The Thai women who ask for sin soht straight out are the honest ones, however. Hey, if they are greedy, it’s better to know up front then after the wedding, right? Though there are some Thai women who are so ingenious that they can get their farang to pay without even having to ask. Usually Thai women will hint around a subject (usually pertaining to money) yet will never come out and directly state what they want. Even though this is a characteristic of most women, Thai women have perfected it into an art form. Thai women can out-Freud Freud in the techniques of reverse psychology. When a Thai chick says, “Don’t give me money,” she means give me a lot of money. When a Thai chick says, “You don’t love me” she wants you to prove your love by giving her money. When a Thai chick says, “I don’t care, go take another girl,” she means don’t fxxk other chicks. When a Thai chick says, “You butterfly man,” she wants you to spend your money only on her. When a Thai chick says, “I don’t like Thai man,” she means she is fxxxing half the motorcycle taxi drivers on the street corner. When a Thai chick calls you “keenio” she wants you to prove that you are not cheap by giving her money. When a Thai chick says, “He only friend,” she is fxxxing her friend every which way. When a Thai chick says, “I love you. I want to marry you,” she means she wants you to send money every month. Thai chicks are so transparent, but most farang have their heads so far up their asses that they can’t see it. If farang want to have power over Thai women, listen to them carefully, acknowledge what they say, but don’t ever react. If you listen to this piece of advice, you’ll have a lot of power.

    There is a big distinction between sin soht and a Thai woman’s obligations to her parents.
    Let me make this point loud and clear so that farang get it: Sin Soht is not meant for the support of the wife’s parents. Let me say this again: SIN SOHT IS NOT INTENDED FOR THE SUPPORT OF THE WIFE’S PARENTS. Any Thai chick who tells you that you are obligated to support her parents because it is Thai culture is making a fool out of you. In Thai culture, katunyu and bun khun are what drive personal relationships. Katunyu means gratitude for one’s parents, teachers, patrons and monks for supporting them in life. Bun Khun is the obligation that a Thai has to her parents, teachers, patrons, etc for supporting her in life. A Thai woman will support her parents because she is katunyu and is paying off her bun khun debt to them; however, she never repays her bun khun to her parents entirely, so no amount of wealth your shower upon your country bumpkin in-laws will ever clear your wife’s debt to them. Get it straight: Your wife’s bun khun is not your responsibility. A farang doesn’t have bun khun or katunyu with his Thai in-laws, especially if his wife is a whore. What do you have to be grateful to your in-laws for? That they raised their daughter to be a whore and a gold digger. Regardless, farang never benefit from this cultural katunyu/bun khun, so they shouldn’t be ruled by it or have to pay for it. And even if you bent over backwards for your Thai in-laws, do you really think they will ever feel a bit of gratitude for all the things that you did for them? I seriously doubt it. I bet the most you will ever get from them is a big, dopey shit-eating grin. If you get satisfaction from giving your in-laws lots of money in exchange for big, dopey shit-eating grins, then by all means, do it. In a way, it makes sense—in freaky farang, Bizarro world. If a farang can give $50-100 to an ugly Thai whore for bad sex, then it makes sense in that world to give her parents ten of thousands of dollars (or euros) for insincere, betel nut stained grins.

    There is a big distinction between Buddhist morality and Thai culture. A Thai woman who cheats and lies to get money to support her family is a bad Buddhist, but supposedly is a good Thai daughter if she does it to fulfill her obligations to her family. Buddhism doesn’t condone prostitution. Buddhism doesn’t condone cheating money out of people. Many Thais, on the other hand, condone both. Have you ever noticed how a Thai woman will always defend her lack of scruples with the lame excuse of supporting her family? To me, that is sick. Would you let your sister become a whore to support your mother? Would you let your daughter become a whore to support you? And why would any man marry a woman who would stoop so low as to become a prostitute in order to support their children? In the West, mothers like this would go to jail and their children would be taken away from them. Further, billions of poor women across the planet neither resort to prostitution nor scam foreigners to take care of their families. So why should Thai women be an exception to the rule? Besides, Thailand is not a poor country. It is only a poorly managed country.

    Not all Thai women scam men for money. In fact, I think the opposite is true. Historically, Thai women have always been an important part of the economy. In comparison to other civilizations, Thai women have had more economic freedom than their sisters in the West and the rest of Asia. The 1950’s American family archetype–the nuclear families with the June Cleaver stay at home moms– never existed in Thailand. Believe it or not, more Thai women get university degrees than Thai men, and Thai women have always been a large part of the labor force. Look around you. Wherever you are in Thailand, women are working. It has always been this way. They work hard and for long hours, making relatively little money. Most Thai women take pride in their work. Normal, well-educated Thai women are responsible about their finances and plan for the future. Don’t let the mentally screwed up, money grubbing Thai chicks convince you otherwise. Further, Thailand is at full employment with a 1-3 % unemployment rate. There is no reasonable excuse for Thai women to become prostitutes or scam men out of money—unless it is out of greed and laziness.

    I don’t think Thai women are the root of the problem when it comes to money issues between them and farang. If there weren’t stupid men out there willing to shell out money for them every time they shook their little asses, they would have no reason to prostitute themselves or to scam men for money in the first place. Whores and the gold diggers would have absolutely no power without your money. Many whoremongers across the globe probably passed out from that last sentence. They will say, “Gee whiz, if I don’t give my whore or Thai girlfriend money, she will stop calling me “hansum man,” she will stop having sex with me, and she will probably not want to marry me.” This is what I call the farang’s paradox: A farang tries to buy his Thai woman’s affection and body with cash payments, gold and sin soht, yet deludes himself into thinking that his Thai girlfriend or bride is in the relationship with him for love, his good looks and charming personality, then after the relationship fails he blames the girl when he finds out she was only after his money. And farang wonder why their relationships with Thai women fail. Maybe it’s because they suffer from cognitive dissonance. If you really want to know what your Thai girlfriend or wife thinks of you, don’t give her any money. That really is the ultimate acid test. Thai woman don’t need your money. They may want your money, but they certainly don’t need it to survive. If Thailand’s sex industry and the farang it caters to disappeared from the face of the Earth tomorrow, it wouldn’t be the end of the world, because those Thai women who sell their bodies and scam men for money would certainly find other things to do with their lives, just like the vast majority of Thai women who don’t prostitute themselves.

    I think that the reason why prostitution is so ubiquitous in Thailand is because Thai women have been using sex and manipulation for centuries in order to get what they want. Thai women really see their sexuality as a powerful tool– and in many cases their only tool. If that tool is going to make them some money or get them some power, so be it. They know that both Thai and farang men will jump through hoops for their pussies. And the evidence for this is quite obvious: Hundreds of thousands of men travel across the globe to Thailand every year just to pay for the privilege of having sex with Thai women; and the Thai pussy market for Thai men is even much more massive than the one for foreigners. So Thai women have been conditioned to think that their pussies are made of gold and that men are willing to give up their sanity and pay any price for that gold. On this note: See Humphrey Bogart’s performance in the movie, “The Treasure of the Sierra Madre.” Personally, I think Thai women and their pussies are highly over-rated, but what am I going to believe: The marketplace for Thai women or my own lying eyes.

    Has there ever been a national crisis so dire in Thailand that there was mass famine and homelessness? The answer is never. Contrary to the conventional wisdom, prostitution is not a job of last resort for Thai women to survive, but rather it’s a vocation for the lazy, the uneducated, and for those who want non-essential material possessions that they can’t otherwise afford. Those farang who believe that those girls they see working in the red light districts or working the internet scamming farang can’t do anything else to make legitimate money are simply deluded. Thai women who whore around and scam foreigners out of money do so out of choice. Thai women can choose to work for 150 baht a day cleaning toilets, choose to make 1,500 baht a night banging fat farang, or choose to sweet talk chumps jerking off on the internet into sending them free money to pay for their lavish lifestyles. Let’s be honest: Most Thai women who go after farang are not the cream of the crop; actually, they are the bottom of the barrel. And these women are perfectly aware of this fact, which is why they chase gullible farang for a quick, easy buck instead of chasing tuk tuk drivers and security guards without a satang to their names. This type of woman can choose to marry a Thai man who makes no more than 5,000 baht as a farmer or motorcycle taxi or chose to scam 50,000 baht a month from some dumb Brit (or American or Aussie or Canadian) from overseas. If you are the type of guy who thinks it is acceptable to treat women as commodities, I will let you in on a few trade secrets. Anybody can get a hot (and I mean exceptionally hot, not a refugee from the Planet of the Apes from Nana or CM2) Thai girlfriend in Bangkok for 5,000 baht a month, and upcountry it is even less. Anybody can get a fresh girl right off the farm for a lifetime payment of 40,000 baht. These are the prices that Thai men pay. Of course, you’re free to over spend your hard earned money anyway that you wish, but once you willingly hand over your money to a Thai whore or a charlatan, you really have given up your right to complain. I know there are many guys out there who will be screaming at this submission: “But you don’t understand. I was duped.” If you don’t want to be duped, don’t give Thai women any money. It really is a very simple solution. Any guy who makes cash payments the foundation of his relationship with Thai women is really setting himself for disaster. And farang are not doing Thai women any favors by conditioning them to see money and the distorted notion of “take care” as the only cornerstones of a loving and committed relationship. The farang who really are the worst of the lot are the ones who give money to Thai women just for the heck of it. Believe me, there are many morons who do this. I was talking to this girl just the other day at Starbucks. Do you know what she does for a living? She hunts the discos and the internet for men who are willing to take care of her—and she is far from being hot. She doesn’t do anything except give these idiots some song and dance about how poor she is. If you can fork out 150 baht for coffee everyday and 1,500 baht for a wireless internet connection card, you are not living from hand to mouth. Nevertheless, she has morons on the internet sending her money all the time. One guy sent her 20,000 baht a few weeks ago—and they have never even met. It’s unbelievable, yet it happens. It really amazes me that there are some guys who are afraid of using their credit cards online, yet will send money to stupid Thai chicks they met in dodgy chat rooms after a few hours. Then there are the guys who send monthly stipends of up to 60,000 baht a month to Thai chicks for absolutely no reason at all (and these are probably the same assholes who think it is immoral to tip service people who actually work hard for a living). I am starting to think that these farang have a money fetish and sexually get off giving money to Thai women for free. I am serious about this. There should be brothels in Thailand where women just sit around and wait for farang to come in and hand money to them for free. Oh, I forgot, they have that already. It’s called a bar fine.

    Do you guys know what kind of corrupting influence this is having on Thai women? It’s like you are creating a welfare state for them. These chicks think they are entitled to your money just because they send a few sweet words or tears your way. Trust me when I tell you that these Thai chicks are not grateful when you throw money at them; instead, they have become conditioned by this type of moronic behavior and expect more of the same from every idiot farang who crosses their path. Do farang really get that there are hundreds of Thai women working the internet everyday searching for stupid farang who give away their money for free? And the only reason that these women do it is because farang make it possible for them.

    There are two Thailands.

    There is the legitimate Thailand. In legitimate Thailand, Thai women don’t sucker men out of money. This is the Thailand where women don’t see men as ATM machines. This is the Thailand where Thai women don’t con men out of paying sin soht. This is the Thailand where Thai women have their own jobs and businesses and don’t have to rely on men for their financial success and stability. This is the Thailand where the parents of Thai women don’t want their daughters to become prostitutes or marnyaying. This is the Thailand where parents encourage their daughters to get educated and be successful in their own right. This is the Thailand where Thai parents don’t see a farang as a walking ATM machine. This is the Thailand where the Thai parents actually do everything in their power to support their daughter in having a successful life and marriage. This is the Thailand where love is more important to women than money. This Thailand exists, but it won’t be easy to find in the red-light districts of Sukhumvit or Pattaya or on Bangkokchat.org or on Thailandfriends.com.

    There is an illegitimate Thailand also. In illegitimate Thailand, Thai women go to bars, work in brothels and massage parlors, and chat on the internet in order to sucker men out of money. That is their job. I know the sex tourist/sexpat conventional wisdom believes that these girls enter the whore rackets in order to meet and marry farang for love. Think again. These Thai women use their sex organs rather than their brain organ to financially succeed in life. This is the Thailand where the daughter has to sell herself in order to pay for her father’s drinking binges and her mother’s gambling debts. This is the Thailand where the women are too lazy or too stupid to do well in school. This is the Thailand where the Thai woman decided to get back at all men, because her father molested her. This is the Thailand where the woman wants a shiny new mobile or a car, but doesn’t have the patience to earn it in her own right or wants to compete with her friends, materialistically. This is the Thailand where the woman goes looking for stupid farang in order to solve all her financial problems. This is the Thailand where a woman goes looking for a farang because she is having an existential crisis and wants to escape Thailand. This is the Thailand where the woman looks for the sugar daddy farang because her real father was a real dick and was never there for her. This is the Thailand where the parents want their daughters to be their 401k plan. This is the Thailand where parents manipulate and guilt trip their daughters into selling their bodies so that they can live high on the hog. This is the Thailand where parents and daughters both see farang (and their sin soht) as winning lottery numbers. This is the Thailand where a Thai woman equates “love” with financial security for her, her parents, her extended family, her mangda, and her water buffalo.

    Unfortunately, many farang get caught up in illegitimate Thailand, thinking all Thai people are just the same, but the fact is Sukhumvit Road, Pattaya, and the creepy internet chat rooms are really the poorest reflections of Thailand. But hey, if you are going to look for a girlfriend or a wife in brothels, right-light districts, and dubious web sites, what do you really expect to get other than lies and deception. If you go looking for love in all the wrong places, you will find it, but ask yourself: at what price.

    Many farang actually think they are adhering to the rules of Thai culture by paying sin soht to a whore. Who convinced them of this bullshit? If you really want to play by the rules of Thai culture, you shouldn’t be paying anything, not one satang, to your whore. Instead, she should be on her hands and knees kissing your feet, thanking you for saving her from a whore’s life. Ask yourself: How much would a Thai man pay for my whore? When you think about this, really consider her black skin, her tattoos, her drug habit, her stretch marks, and her saggy A cups. A whore is spoiled goods, so a Thai man would pay nothing. What Thai man in his right mind would pay sin soht for a prostitute? Not one. If farang really want to play by the Thai rules, then for one, don’t marry whores, and two, don’t pay sin soht to them or their parents. Why do farang think Thai women enter the farang-oriented prostitution game for? Really, think about it. Could it perhaps be for the satisfaction of rubbing the fat bellies and bald heads of ugly, old men with no brains? Perhaps not. The reason they enter that game is because no self-respecting Thai man would touch them with a ten foot poll–except those pimps who are making money off of them. Why would any farang with any dignity and self-respect want to pay for Thai men’s rejects? Essentially, that is what you are getting.

    According to Thai culture, one should not marry beneath his social status. Actually, a Thai woman should bring the man status. She should bring something to the marriage. That is real Thai culture. What does your whore bring to the marriage besides bastard children, a bad nose job, tattoos, stretch marks and venereal diseases? Does your whore bring marketable skills, education, morality, money, a good family, what? She should bring something. She shouldn’t be sponging off you, taking advantage of your stupidity and your desperation. Let’s be honest: A farang man would never give a farang woman tens of thousands of dollars or euros for a dowry. So what is the point in giving it to a Thai woman? Is it to feel like a big shot? Is it really out of love or is there some pay off that you expect from it? If you pay it, is your wife going to fxxk any better, clean any better, cook any better? If you pay it, will she be more kind, more loyal, and more loving if you hadn’t paid it? I think the answer to these questions is no. Farang have a choice: They can either take personal responsibility for their actions or they can write pathetic stories to Stickman about how they were victimized by Thai women. If you don’t want to be a victim, listen to the Beatles: Money can’t buy you love.

    Let me give you a little historical background on the role of women in Thai society.

    In the past, Thais had a very rigid feudal system that I will call Sakdina. Under Sakdina, every free Thai man had a Sakdina number (higher the rank, higher the number) and/or a royal title—Khun, Luang, Chao, Chao Phrya, etc. Since Thai women were considered their husband’s or father’s property, they didn’t have titles—except if they were a member of the royal family (princess) or a wife of a noble (khunying). Back in those days, Thai men had many wives and concubines. Those women were informally ranked according to the rank of their fathers and their mothers. So if a woman was from a high-ranking family, she was a full wife entitled to more status and privileges than the other wives. In a Thai man’s household, all women would be ranked sequentially according to their place on the sakdina totem poll. If the woman was a daughter of a peasant, she would be ranked at the bottom with no power or privilege. Why is this important? It is important because the feudal mentality still exists in Thailand.

    In the good old days, when a Thai man married a woman from a family of high rank, he would benefit from his relationship with his wife’s family, and his wife’s family would gain from the relationship as well. The two families would share wealth, land, skills, and political connections. It was a symbiotic relationship based upon mutual benefit, which was why Thais preferred and still prefer to marry within their own class. In the past, some members of Thai nobility would marry into wealthy Chinese merchant families in order to gain access to capital and in turn the Chinese would get access to the court and receive favorable business concessions. After the coup in 1932, the families of military and police generals would inter-marry to secure political alliances. Today, most noveau-riche Thai-Chinese families inter-marry amongst each other. If you were a part of the Thai elite, you didn’t marry beneath your station. The notion purported by some of Stickman’s readers that men are supposed to raise women up and give them status is not supported by Thai culture. Even today, Thai men don’t go looking for poor women to marry. They would never marry hookers and put them up on a pedestal as first wife. It would never happen. It is the woman who gives the man face and status—not the other way around. Even if you are a multi-millionaire farang and have a hooker for a wife, it won’t matter how much money you or your wife has, the only thing the Thais will notice is that your wife is a hooker. And from that moment on, you will be known as the stupid farang millionaire who married an ugly hooker. That will be your identity.

    During feudal times, if a man married a woman of a higher class than himself, he stood to benefit, yet if he married beneath him, he would lose his status. When a slave (in Thai, ka) or a peasant (in Thai, phrai) gave his daughter to a lord (in Thai, nai) to be part of his harem, the family might get something from that arrangement, but it certainly wouldn’t be tons of gold or property. The daughter, however, would become a low ranked concubine. Her duties were to fxxk the lord on command and be a slave to all the other wives and concubines. Whatever the arrangement was, it was up to the nai’s discretion. This slave girl was expendable, however. If she pissed off the nai, she would be sent back to her family in disgrace. Let me make this clear: The slave or phrai didn’t dictate to the nai the parameters of the relationship. In the modern sense, as a farang, you are the one with the nai status, and your whore is just lucky to even know you. As a farang, you are the one with all the money and power; therefore, it is you who should decide the parameters of your relationship. It is you who should decide who, when and what you are going to pay.

    Since a farang has money, or perceived to have money, he will always, always outrank any whore—even though she has brought down his social status in the eyes of Thai society. Nonetheless, within the boundaries of his own family, he is the master of the domain. The figurative slaves and peasants in his new family shouldn’t be dictating to him the rules of the game. They have no leverage. They have no capital to support him. They have no social standing to help him make it in Thailand. They don’t have anything to offer him, and because of this, he shouldn’t have to pay one satang for sin soht. Instead, a whore should be thanking her lucky stars that somebody is willing to love her and her family—especially with all her baggage. They should be groveling on their hands and knees in his presence. But it seems like most farang just let the slaves rule the plantation, when, in fact, it should be the other way around.

    Sakdina still exists in Thailand, but it’s a cultural rather than a legal system now. When you hear Thais talking about Thai culture they are usually referring to the sakdina mentality. Except for the Royal Family and monks, nobody is ranked according to royal/feudal title anymore. After the 1932 revolution that toppled the absolute monarchy, sakdina and royal titles were officially abolished. Actually some titles are still given out, but they are given for public service and don’t carry any real political power. But now, a Thai’s social status is determined by class, education, region of origin, skin color, wealth, title, and profession. Thais rarely marry outside their class, and they are extremely dumbfounded when wealthy, educated farang marry and pay outrageous sin soht to lowly whores and lower class Thai women with no education, social status, money, property, or power. And Thais are even more shocked when stupid farang let their whores rule the roost. Let me make this clear so you all get it: If you are marrying somebody beneath your social status, your wife and her family have no right to make any demands from you. They are not bringing anything to the table. In Thailand, marriage is an alliance, a two-way street. If out of the kindness of your heart you decide to raise your wife’s family up then, according to Thai culture, they should be eternally grateful and obligated towards you instead of taking advantage of your good nature and robbing you for all your worth. In other others words, they should give you the respect of a patron, which is essentially what you are, rather than treat you as if you were a magic buffalo who shits money and gold on demand.

    Since farang have never been part of the official or cultural Sakdina system (except in a few rare circumstances) they shouldn’t have to pay sin soht. Since farang families rarely enter into mutually beneficial relationships with Thai families, they shouldn’t have to pay sin soht. Since farang will never be integral to the Thai social system and never be full participants of Thai cultural norms and values, they shouldn’t have to pay sin soht. Don’t let your Thai woman dictate to you about your responsibilities to Thai culture when that culture isn’t going to do anything for you except cost you money. Most Thai women just pull the Thai culture card out of their butts just to get you to do something for them on your dime, or they use it to avoid making a rational intelligent argument.

    The reason why Thais hide behind Thai culture and face and avoid confrontation is because they essentially have no integrity. Many farang think Thais don’t have the word integrity in their vocabulary. Actually, they have two words for it: burunaphop and sutjavaja. Anyway, when Thais want to avoid responsibility for not keeping their commitments (phantasunya), they always hide behind face (na) and culture (prophenee; it means custom, but wattanatham, the word for culture, wouldn’t be the appropriate word for what I mean.) The real reason why Thais never want to confront anything is because they don’t ever want to be responsible (mee khwam rap pid chop) for their shitty integrity. Think about it: If you had integrity and were a responsible person, would you really give a shit about face and confrontation? Of course not, because you would have nothing to hide. I’ll let you guys in a little secret about Thai woman. If you ever catch one in a lie, watch how she reacts, because the way she reacts will tell you everything about her true personality. For example, if your girlfriend is caught in a lie and blames others, then you know that she is the type who never takes personal responsibility for anything. If your girlfriend denies telling a lie, even though the evidence is staring her in the face, then you will know this girl is deceptive in everything she says and does. If you catch your girlfriend ever lying about having other men, then you know she has a bunch of guys on the side. If your Thai chick lies to you, and she says she does it to spare your feelings, then you know she has done some pretty nasty shit to hurt your feelings.

    The only reason people lie is because they want to avoid being responsible for the truth. The reason Thais lie all the time is because they hate taking responsibility for anything, and as a culture, they have accepted non-confrontation and cover-up as the best way to deal with lies rather than being responsible and owning up to the truth. Nobody has perfect integrity. As human beings, we all make mistakes. But people have a choice: one can be committed to integrity, fail at it sometimes, and take responsibility for those failings; or, one can be committed to a life of dishonesty, deceit, cover-up, and irresponsibility. Which choice do you think Thais mostly make? Call me a traditionalist, but I think marriage is a lifetime commitment. If I were to get married, beauty, brains, and sex would fall far behind integrity on my priority list. What I don’t get about farang in Thailand is that it seems to me that integrity is the thing they care about the most–only after the relationship fails. From my own life experience I have learned that people who are dishonest usually remain dishonest and never reform their wicked ways. So if your little Thai darling is a con artist, I seriously doubt all your cash donations to her will transform her into Mother Theresa.

    I have noticed that when I first meet a Thai woman, the first thing she does is check out my social status. She’ll ask me about where I come from, about what I do, about where I live, about my college degrees, about how many employees work under me, do I have a car, and do I own or rent, etc. I used to think: Who does this chick think she is? She really has got some nerve trying to size me up. But then I realized that these questions shouldn’t be about me, they should be about the girl. Why is that I have to prove my worth to her? She should prove herself to me. If a Thai woman is going to judge your human worth based on these superficial things, you have every right to turn the tables on her, and you have Thai culture to defend you. For example, don’t let some dumpy looking secretary from Nakhon Nowhere with her worthless degree from Ramkhamhaeng University who makes 5,000 baht a month working at some crappy Thai company make judgments about you. Farang shouldn’t be bending over backwards for these chicks. A dumpy secretary with no Thai prospects for marriage and no money has no right to judge a farang or make demands from him. And the whores who think their pussies are made out of gold are even more ridiculous. A Thai whore is the last person in the world to judge or demand from anybody, especially since her international reputation is barely one notch above an Al Qaeda terrorist. There is nothing more absurd in this world than a Thai whore who thinks her shit don’t stink, expecting every farang who comes her way to hand the world over to her on a silver platter—and trust me, this is how they really think. Instead of tap dancing for his whore, farang should remember that her worth only comes from whatever he is willing to pay; otherwise, she is worthless. When I say worthless, I don’t mean to sound cruel. I’m just being honest. In real Thai society, they would have no power at all. They’d be maids, rice farmers, nannies, waitresses, wives of construction workers and tuk tuk drivers, or slinging som tam on the streets. I think farang need to realize that they have a lot of power, because you are the only thing that gives these whores any power. What would your whores and Thai girlfriends do without you? Would they ever have their mobiles, their drugs, their mangdas, their motorbikes, their clothes, and their vacations? The answer is no. So on top of all that, why should you have to give them a cash bonus, gold, and a lifetime pension to their parents? I think Thais are friendly, but they are the most ungrateful people I have ever come across in my life. And the reason they are ungrateful is because nobody ever makes them accountable for anything. So stop giving money to these chicks when they don’t deserve it and have done nothing to earn it. Farang need to cut it out, really. Stop giving money to these chicks for free. It just makes them spoiled, arrogant, and ungrateful. Farang will start to have a lot of power once they realize that they are entitled to call the shots and make all the rules in their relationships with Thai women. When farang start exercising their power, Thai women will stop treating them as though they are magic buffalo that shit money and gold on demand.

    If you are a farang who wants to marry a Thai whore, here is the sin soht rule: You do not have to pay sin soht for her. Not one single satang. She is spoiled goods. Her chances of finding a Thai man to marry and getting sin soht are zero. Your whore knows she is spoiled goods and her family knows she is spoiled goods. You are an idiot if you pay and they know you are an idiot if you pay. By the term spoiled goods, I mean two things: First, if your Thai girlfriend is not a virgin and works as a whore, there is no need to negotiate sin soht, because there is nothing to negotiate over. Second, she is spoiled goods because she is a disgraced whore without any redeeming social value. If a Thai man doesn’t have to pay sin soht for women like this, then you as a farang don’t have to pay either. If you think you are obligated to pay, you’re wrong. If your whore says you are required to pay, she is lying.

    Farang often wonder what they should pay for a normal girl of the same class as themselves. This is my advice to you. It is simple and reasonable. And it won’t cause you to sell out your pride and dignity. You fork out no more than what you would pay for the engagement ring and the wedding ring for a Western wife. There could be some value to sin soht paid in kind if it used for the right intentions. I see nothing wrong in using it for a first house or saving it as a nest age for the first child, but that is something you decide together as a couple. But don’t pay it to make your in-laws look like big shots or use it to pay off their debts or because your wife gave you a guilt trip.

    As for the wedding, the cost, traditionally, is recouped by the guest’s contributions.

    Again, I want to make this obvious point crystal clear: If you are a farang, you are not Thai, and because you are not Thai, you don’t get the benefits of being Thai. Since you don’t live by Thai rules and cultural obligations you don’t have to pay sin soht. It is neither your duty nor your obligation. If you decide to ignore me and have committed yourself to paying it, pay only what the woman would be worth as if though she was marrying a Thai man. In other words, don’t pay according to what you can afford, but only pay according to what value she brings to the marriage. If your fiancé is a whore, you pay nothing.

    Reply

  143. Actually I have a question(s)

    My GF is 50 yrs old, has little education, is unemployed, has been married and has 2 sons in college. She still thinks I should pay a sinsod. Does this sound right to anyone???

    Reply

    • I think it’s up to you guys to decide. There are guidelines in terms of tradition, but those are blurred these days and people tend to have a sinsod regardless of second or third marriage. In fact, a number of Thai celebrity second marriages have had very large sin sod in recent years. If you were marrying for the second or third time and having a registry office wedding there might not be a sinsod because it’s mainly for show during a ceremony, however, most wedding ceremonies include the sin sod. Just discuss between you what you feel is appropriate, what the family will expect and whether the money (or part of it) will be given to the family or returned. As you will see from the comments here, sin sot has become quite a personal thing, with couples choosing to do it their own way. I have a Thai friend who recently married a foreigner and she didn’t want a sin sod. She doesn’t want a traditional wedding either; she’s rather a gathering of friends – so it really does depend on the individuals involved.

      Reply

  144. Excellent Blog, thanks for creating this. Well done. I am sure, like me, there are thousands of guys out there wanting to do the right thing but also have that little voice in the back of their head saying “be careful….”

    Long story, I will try not to ramble too much 🙂

    A few years back I registered on a few international dating sites, curious that maybe my special lady wasn’t in Australia. One site was Asian Dating which opened my eyes to a whole world of women seemingly desperate to find what I am now labelled as “a farang” (on the first day I press ‘visible’ on my profile I received over 100 contacts). Despite this realisation I still believed that it couldn’t possibly be all women (but quickly learned I had to be careful). I chatted with a few women around the world (not only SE Asia) for a few months then one day I decided I would restrict my search criteria as specific as possible on every site I registered (some of which couldn’t be done by the website, some had to be done by simply reading the profile). This narrowed down the search to a few hundred women from I think six or seven countries. Then I remembered it’s not just about me. It’s important they are genuinely interested in who I am. Thankfully some websites offer the function to do reverse matching (i.e. search for women that have specified criteria that I match). Interesting exercise but I still had some doubts about the potential for real love using this method. After this reverse filtering the search results came down to around 20. After a few days of non-action I decided it was time to send these ladies a message. So I came online and started drafting what to write then suddenly received a live chat message from one the ladies I was interested in. From a simple chat in the beginning we both wanted more. We chatted for a year and it was just beautiful so it was time to meet.

    So, a year ago today I came to Thailand, knowing little about Thailand and still somewhat skeptical that online dating was for me. As a vegetarian, her buying me chicken feet soup in Udon Thani for our first meal together is now a night we both look back at and laugh about often.

    Over the first month my skepticism started to disappear and I started to become ready to open my heart again after more than three years being single. But what the hell was I doing? I can’t speak Thai, I know very little about the culture and I have a dog, a rental lease, friends, family and a permanent job soon to be promoted back in Australia.

    To this I say “where there is a will there is a way”.

    So the research began about visas etc. Thankfully I have been able to secure legitimate employment here which took me some time to realise how fortunate I am to do so. Now after three trips back and forth I am now here ‘semi-permanently’ (with visa/immigration commitments of course).

    Last Friday a special night with a special restaurant involved a diamond ring being taken from my pocket and a true love relationship being taken to the next step. A loving relationship that we both had our doubts about in the beginning.

    Naturally, my research also included numerous forums noting bad experiences other guys had had. Money, greedy parents, etc. etc. (I suspect you’ve all heard/seen it also). To that I have to say that it certainly does seem that in many cases there is a direct correlation with “the extent of effort by the farang to respect culture and fit in” and “the resulting dilemnas that seem to frequent farangs coming here for a relationship”.

    If I had a dollar for every farang that told me “they were taken to the cleaners” but they couldn’t even count to ten in Thai, well you know what I am saying. Again I point out I am not suggesting this is everyone!

    This brings me to my somewhat long-winded point. Culture. As a non-christian, non-religious westerner tradition is more important to me than culture. However when it comes to a wedding I believe it’s more than just tradition and culture to consider. Of course there are two people who have the ultimate say here. Although I have made it quite clear to my fiance that there are six peoples wishes that must be considered here (four parents and us).

    A cross cultural relationship is rarely simple or easy, but it can also be very exciting and rewarding if the effort is made to develop mutual respect. Yes, as farangs we must respect sin sod. Also, we must respect our own culture. But we must also be sure we are not being taken for a ride.

    We have discussed sin sod and her view is that her parents (probably her dominant mother) will discuss this us in coming weeks. She is more concerned about the perception or social status aspects. The family is a rubber farming family although her father was also a teacher. They are not rich but they do own land. She is not a girl who wants money from me. She is a masters degree qualified teacher with a new vios and despite me earning about four times her salary, insists she pays for dinner often.

    I asked her to tell me what is reasonable, what she would be insulted by, what she would be surprised at and what she wanted. Her view of reasonable was between 100,000 and 300,000 depending on the criteria which was been well noted in this forum already. What she would be insulted by would be to upset her mother. What she would be surprised at is if I pay more than her mother asks for. And what she wanted was for her mother and me to have that discussion.

    I made it very clear that my culture must also be respected. However when it comes to my parents wishes, they simply want me to be happy. I won’t be pushing the line “in our culture her parents should pay” in order to save money. However I will be mentioning it politely. She has re-assured me that this is certainly ok and that she believes her mother will be unlikely to ask for a crazy amount.

    Although I can’t help being a little anxious!

    Reply

  145. I think what you’re doing is very sensible in the circumstances and I really hope your Norwegian guy is able to allay some of your fears.
    I know it’s hardly normal procedure but just reading this thread makes you realise that sometimes, with some Thai ladies, things aren’t normal!
    Good luck, David!

    Reply

  146. Thanks for all the answers. It pretty much sums up what I was thinking. Being new to Thailand I am not sure of the customs. My girlfriend says that she gets a Norwegian pension and rents her house in Norway (her Norwegian husband died a year ago) which amounts to 85,000 baht per month. She also owns 3 houses(1 not finished) and rice fields in the Udon Thani area. She says that it is not the money but proof that I can look after my girlfriend which I took for a Thai custom.
    After me turning her down she says that she will stay with me anyway but it would be good if I sent her a smaller amount so that she can use her money to finance the completion of her 3rd house. However I get to live with her in the house she lives in. I work in Oz for 4 weeks in every 5 but have a few weeks off soon. I Skype her every night and she is at home with her family in a very quite village.
    I have just employed a Norwegian private investigator to see if that side of the story is true. Very cheap for a background check and finance check.
    It all feels very cloak and dagger and somewhat wrong, but I have heard so many horror stories. I hope she is genuine but I am treading very carefully.
    Again sorry for hijacking the thread and many thanks for your responses.

    Reply

  147. This is really tough reading. I know there are different cultural procedures and traditions but I think you should always ask yourself, “would I agree to this in my own country?”
    If the answer is no – proceed with great caution. What sort of a relationship is dependant on somebody being paid to stay in it?
    I’m not married to or living with a Thai lady but I do know many of them through friends. As in any community, they are all different. Some are lovely but I have to tell you that others are motivated entirely by money. It’s the only reason they are with their partner. It’s the only reason they are over here – to amass money and send it home. They have a different view on marriage and commitment than us.
    How can you tell the sincere ones from the ATM seekers? If only I knew that!!

    Reply

    • I guess the obvious answer would be to not rush in. Act like an average guy who lives month to month rather than a flashy foreigner with deep pockets. Date first as a normal couple. Wait before moving in together. Wait at least a couple of years before marriage. If the girl is only after your money I am sure it will become pretty apparent after a few months; same as it would in any other country.

      Reply

  148. I think comparing amounts to pay for either Sin Sodt or a monthly stipend for a partner is somewhat ignorant, it should always depend on the individuals involved, what they can afford and what they want to give, bragging how little someone ‘paid’ to a person that they supposedly loved only shows me how little respect some people have for others.

    Reply

    • In part I agree Lloyd, that is, in terms of a monthly allowance for a long term partner/wife. Using Steve’s situation as an example; topping up a wage if someone is struggling to make ends meet is one thing, but being told “you must pay me xyz a month” suggests that if one doesn’t the lady will leave and look elsewhere…further suggesting that the relationship is based on financial dependency, which in my opinion is not a good way to start out. Of course I would help my partner out financially if she needed me to, but if I’d only known a woman 2 months and she asked me to pay her a 400 pounds salary each month, and I was paying food, rent and other expenses already, I’d have to reconsider my position.

      Thanks for the 7/11 figures. I was grossly misinformed. That’s good to know. Perhaps the OPs GF could consider such a job and then he could top up like Steve did should she need it.

      Reply

  149. Do you live apart from your gf, ie another country? How much of that 9 weeks have you actually spent physically together? Just to give a different perspective to TTI’s above post. I did send money to my gf (now wife) when we were living apart. However, it was nowhere close to 20,000thb per month. I would take the 10,000thb figure and half it. Having said that, my gf did have a job of her own, so the reasonably small amount I sent basically topped up her salary. I would also add that she never actually asked for money or made any demands. If she had come out and started making demands “to stay with her” then I know what I would have done. We wouldn’t be married now put it that way.
    The two dead husbands would worry me also 😉

    Reply

  150. I have read the above with great interest. However can I change the subject a little bit. I have recently met a Thai girlfriend. After meeting her in Phuket 9 weeks ago I have been to her home in a little northern village twice now.
    I pay for everything and have spent 10,000 baht on a gold chain for her Mother as well as giving some cash. However my girlfriend now says that she wants 20,000 baht a month to stay with me as I’m expected to take care of her. I have talked to another man who pays 10,000 baht a month.
    Is this the norm or am I being ripped off if I pay? I like the girl (14 years younger than me and two dead husbands behind her) and want to stay with her but am I just being used?
    Any advise would be greatly appreciated.

    Reply

    • Hi David,

      When I dated my GF (now wife) I have never paid her an amount per month. Of course my salary was much higher than hers and so I usually paid for dinners and outings, but she would reciprocate by buying me the odd present, fruit and paying for dinner on occasion.

      I don’t have much experience of this paying a girl a monthly salary; no one I know has done or does that. I did used to know girls in the local bars of samui where I played pool who had donor BFs from Europe sending money each month. They used to ask me to correct their English for them in my friends internet shop. The scam was to say to each guy that to stay out the bar he had to send an allowance for her to live. They would co-ordinate the holidays of each guy and bank the cash. A horrible scam on some quite desperate men who thought the girl really liked/loved them. I am not saying your GF is one of these girls, but it is worth being aware that some poorer, uneducated women from the bars do make a living like that.

      I do have married friends with children whose wives have stopped working to look after the kid(s) and pay an allowance for shopping and socialising each month. But with all due respect, if your GF was looking after herself okay before she met you why does she now need you to pay her 20,000 a month? If she needs a little financial help here and there then sure, help out, what bf wouldn’t. But arranging a monthly payment after 9 weeks of being together is too much like a financial contract than a loving relationship. Also, 20k is a bit steep. Consider that a Thai woman working in 7/11 works 6 days a week for about 8,000 Baht, so to hand out 2.5 times that amount for doing nothing each month is a bit much considering you pay for everything else too.

      I think the question you have to ask yourself is, would I do that back home? Would you give a 20,000 Baht allowance and pay for everything and buy gold for the girl’s mother after 9 weeks of dating (or less/more) back home? In my experience the average working Thai woman would never ask for a salary like that. And the average working Thai man would never pay one to a woman if she asked while they were dating. An allowance after being married is very different if the woman stays at home.

      Hope this helps.

      Reply

      • FYI 7-Elevens listed base rate for counter staff starts at 11,680 BHT nett per month in regional areas and 15,700 per month in Bangkok, Phuket and Chiang Mai.

        My wife is a franchisee in Nong Khai province, she is required to provide audited figures for all wages in the monthly audit statements.

        Reply

  151. Hallo again!

    I like to share some experience of the last 15 month. However, coming out with this is not easy but I hope it helps other people to make their right choices.
    Here it goes: I meet my wife in December 2011. I felt truly in love with her and her family. We got married (Thai Ceremony) earl March 2012. After getting all the legal documents we got married legally in late July 2012. In mid December 2013 my wife told me she married me only because of money and left me. Since this time she is with another guy (the old boyfriend ?) and she actually left her family and son. Disappeared. Only her friends know…

    Of course there is a lot of the story missing. Like some construction for the house, the furniture, the purchase of the land, the money for the company registration, the car etc. etc.
    For many of you nothing new.
    Maybe surprising, but I did not marry my wife for sex nor did I ever cheat on her or lied to her.
    Whatever I did, I did it in good faith and for a happy family life.
    However, I truly believe in marriage and I did all I can for my wife and her family.
    I did not know anything about scam in Thailand and I could never imagine that all this exists what I read about it today, +7 mil Bath later.

    I found out later that I was not the 1st guy that felt for the scam. She ripped of an Indian guy some years before. Of course the entire family knew about the real intentions of my wife. Of course I don’t speak Thai and I would have never thought this is possible (that they set up a marriage etc. etc.) and it’s all about money.

    From a technical point of few: My life became extremely difficult after my wife left me as I need a divorce in court. And of course good advice is very expensive (Lawyer etc.).
    From an emotional point of few: no comment

    My advice:
    • learn the language
    • take your time for each and every step you take
    • learn about the culture, read the crazy stories…..
    • take advice (also legal) (put in on paper before you get married, before you buy a house/land etc.)
    • don’t trust only your feelings, don’t fall for the “she does not ask me for money”
    Different culture, different background:
    If you believe in the instution of marriage, it will be your own desire to do all you can for your wife and her family. Her happines is your desire and your permanent reason to create realites and spend money for anything you believe is important for your happy family life.

    I guess I did all the thing wrong you possibly can do wrong….

    However. There are many wonderful and honest woman in Thailand and for sure Thailand will is a fantastic country and it will experience an incredible development over the next few years.
    Yelmo

    Reply

    • Hi Yelmo,

      Sorry to hear this terrible story. Thanks for sharing and offering your advice. As you said, not all Thai women, or all women of any other country for that matter, are scammers, and it’s commendable that you still remain positive about Thailand despite your ordeal. I wish you all the best for the future, and hope you find a wonderful woman second time around.

      Reply

      • (note to moderator: This is the same post 3 times, but this time as direct reply to David)

        David,

        I believe you began by providing a very reasonable list of proofs that you can “take care” of a girl, who by Thai standards could easily afford to take care of you.

        If you want to make nice distinctions, there’s a difference between showing a will and an ability to take care of someone. Considering you are only 9 (now 11 weeks) into the thing, I think you have shown both to all reasonable standards.

        I didn’t quite get what the PI was for – to check she is really building her third house or that she is spending all her time in a quiet village? I am not sure there’s much point if it’s the first.

        Lloyd, those bragging about how much rather than how little they pay for/to someone, love or not, far outnumber those who brag about how little they pay. However, they will just as often pretend that there are deeper cultural values, bridging of social and physical divides or some other claptrap that somehow transcends the materialistic aspect of the financial transaction. Whatever makes you feel good about yourself, great.

        Reply

  153. Nice piece of information regarding Sin Sod.
    But it is writen by a foreigner out of respect to the Thai customs. However the Thai would never ever consider the customs and respects of the counterpart. In Western society it is most definately rude to ask for money from someone to marry your daughter, it is (to be equally rude) just plain selling of human flesh. Hence the big issue of the Sin Sod when Foreigners and Thai (have plans to) marry.

    My Sri Lankan friend (who was very willing to pay sin sod) joked that in his culture the family of the girl were supposed to pay the family of the man. His Thai parents in law were not amused at all didn’t believe him and sufficive to say he is now the black sheep of the family as he dared to say something like this. How narrowminded of the Thai!

    Reply

    • Hi Fluminis,

      This information isn’t written out of respect for Thai customs, but rather researched and written by interviewing three Thai people in order to obtain a thorough understanding of sin sod.

      Why wouldn’t a Thai “ever consider the customs and respects of the counterpart”? Many do. My friend is about to marry a Thai girl and no sin sod is involved; they aren’t even having a proper ceremony. They are both free spirited, hippy types, so to speak. The girl is very strong willed and doesn’t care what the neighbors will say, and the parents are cool with this.

      It is important to understand sind sod, and also to understand that the upholding of tradition varies from family to family. Even if you’re marrying into a rich Thai family you will, in most instances, still need to appropriate sin sod, even if the family contributes towards the wedding, which many do. And this is what foreigners get so very wrong about the custom. There is no selling of “human flesh” as you put it, and it doesn’t solely apply to poor girls marrying foreigners. The tradition is still upheld by the majority.

      Your friend should explain to the family that this was a joke; often these things get misconstrued in translation. I often make similar jokes with my in-laws. I am, after all, from a country where the tradition is for the bride’s family to pay the wedding costs.

      Reply

  154. A few hundred thousand Baht is a lot of money to most of us. Sinsod is a concept we don’t understand and this thread is very useful. Using language like “stingy farangs” doesn’t really help move things on.
    I realise we should accept Thai customs – but does that mean we forget ours?

    Reply

    • I agree Pravin, but I also take Geoff’s point that foreigners should really consider this custom before getting involved in a serious relationship with a Thai woman. For the majority of women and their families this is an integral part of the ceremony, and it’s meaning reflects so much more than just the money itself. I don’t necessary support this custom personally, but it’s part of a culture I decided to live amongst. For this reason I have opened my mind, done extensive research and done my best to understand a tradition that is interwoven into the fabric of society. It surprises me that so many farangs are themselves surprised by sin sod, and taken aback by its existence. Sin sod appropriates and reflects the class system, which as anyone who lives here knows, is part and parcel of Thai life.

      Reply

  155. Cracks me up all these farangs who say stuff like “I’m not paying sin sod” “it’s bull**it” “it’s a scam” “It’s made up”. If you understood a word of Thai you’d see on TV every day well-known Thai people getting married and announcing the sin sod. Hell, today Dak Bongot married for 100m Baht, not including the rings and gold. And these stingy farangs are moaning about paying a few hundred thousand Baht. It’s part and parcel of Thai culture. Don’t like it. Go home.

    Reply

  156. I married a Thai women in 2007. She was divorce from a Thai and had a young daughter. I met her in Thailand on vacation and after coming back to the U.S. asked her to marry me. The bargaining of sinsod began immediately. She wanted at first 200K and I said no way. We finally agreed on 100K and off I went back to the LOS after applying for the fiance visa. While in Thailand I got cold feet after waiting for us to have the Thai wedding and show the money and I left her village. She followed and found me and begged for at least the 100K so she would not lose face. I told her it was only about money with us and that is not what I wanted in a Thai wife. She hounded me and eventually I gave in and went back to her village to finish it. To make a long story short, I took her back to USA where we were OK for 8 months then she said her mom was sick and had to go take care of daughter. I let her go back for an emergency but she lost her status of visa and I had to reapply. While she was over there she became very hard to contact by phone and highly defensive on the phone. I had a feeling she had went back to her boyfriend or found one. I managed to get her and daughter back on a visa and within 8 days confirmed she had a Thai boyfriend through her constant calls on Vonage. She claimed it was uncle, brother or cousin and demanded a divorce, all of my money, and a trip back to the LOS. I gave her 2 out of the three. She was only in country 8 days. I continuously sent money to support her family while marred for less than 2 years also. She was a complete liar and it was always about the money. She is back and tried to email and call stating she was wrong and wanted another chance. My guess is that she could not find a sucker like me with more money. Never again will I trust another Thai woman. I have tried to date a few more but they were more mysterious than the Bermuda Triangle with always another Brother or cousin in the background they favored. I am now happily married with a Filipina. They are not as mysterious, understand and can converse in the English language, serious about marriage, and will love you till death if you treat them right. Thailand is the LOS or as I view it, Land of Scams.

    Reply

    • Why would you marry a woman on holiday who instantly started bargaining for money and begged you to marry for money? She was clearly a desperate woman with a dependent to support and limited marriage options, and therefore being an opportunist. I appreciate you had a bad experience, but let’s face it, this was largely down to your stupidity. You can’t cast aspersion on a whole female race based on your one personal experience. I married my GF after 4 years of being together. Before making the plunge we went through all the normal hoops and hurdles of a normal relationship, as I would have done with any other girl in any other country before considering marriage. We got to know each other inside so that we could both be sure the relationship was based on trust and respect. All my close friends in Thailand have a similar experience with their GFs/wives.

      Reply

  157. Hi, there is a saying buyer beware,some thai girls treat kindness as weakness,I have had money stolen by previous thai girl friends as a lot of ferang have,the only thing to remember is that Thailand practises racism, IE a none thai cannot own land, is charged more for everything, things that are unacceptable in the uk are common practice here.But I would point out a human being is priceless no matter what there social standing and if you love a Thai girl and want her, give what you can regardless of her education or how many times she has been married or how many children she has,because one day your adopted family may take care of you in your old age,something that is not likely to happen very often in the uk. sin sod may be the best investment you can make. jing jing.

    Reply

  158. I met a Thai lady online a few months ago and we hit it off right away. She’s in her late 30’s. I really like her a lot. Anyway, out of the blue she sent me a package in the mail. It was Christmas gifts for my kids and I. I was stunned. 2 weeks ago her family invited me to her brothers engagement party.
    Does it mean she really likes me too, or just being friendly? I have a good idea, but I want to ask someone who has a good understanding of Thai culture.
    Thanks

    Reply

    • @Jerry. Thai people are friendly by nature/culture, but when it comes to being invited as a single man by a single woman (whom you met online) to meet her family at such an occasion, I would say you’re next for an engagement party. In all seriousness, I guess it depends under what premise you met. Was it in a dating website on through a friend on Facebook, etc? I have a number of Thai female friends and I have been to a few of their family functions.However, we had already established a platonic understanding prior to those functions.

      Reply

  160. This is one of the craziest blog pages I’ve come across regarding anything related to Thailand thanks to all of the wild comments. With that said, I don’t see a single comment that is geared to truly and honestly protect the foreigner’s wallet and well being, with the exception of a few that were written by total jerks.

    Reply

  161. I have been to Thailand 4 times for a total of 12 months. One thing I enjoy about Thailand is learning more and more about their culture. I have wondered about sin sot for years. This article does a great job of explaining many aspects of this custom. I must admit, at first I regarded sin sot as a negative, but now I understand better and would be much more agreeable to paying. Thanks very much for taking your time to explain.

    Reply

  162. I married my wife 2 years ago in her village. I agreed to pay 100,000baht sin sot. In return her family agreed to pay for the wedding. They used about 80% of the cash to pay for the wedding.

    I had to show 75g of gold at the ceremony as well but we kept that. This is proper Thai tradition, parents of cash cows will probably try and keep the gold too.

    On the wedding day we received many cash gifts that almost got to 100,000baht. Some were given to us and some were posted in a box at the entrance to the wedding. We kept the money given directly to us (tied onto our wrists) and let her parents keep the money in the box.
    I think her parents had about 40,000B left at the end of things.

    Seemed OK to me. I paid 100,000 and got back about 50,000B. If we got married in the UK that would probably pay for only the food or drinks at a small do. There were about 200 people at our wedding here and it was good fun.

    Reply

  163. Thank you very much for this information, it is very nice to explain to foreiner who not understand Thai culture. I am very appreciate that you are respect to Thai culture and we are happy and welcome to allow Fa-rang to stay in Thailand if they respect and polite to Thai people. Now Many Fa-rang is Junk and do bad thing in Thailand.

    Reply

  164. Thanks for the reply TLL,

    Please note I just changed my identifying name for posting to your site to LA-TRADER (Brian Binns), your response represents why I like and continue to read your posts. It provided a much more detailed and in-depth description of life and perceptions in thailand. Since I have never been to thailand before, my information to this point has been gleaned from various blogs, books, etc. and most have been much broader, less detailed, and probably to a significant degree, cliche’d. Just to clarify a point. If I were to become involved with a thai woman, she would be close to my own age (52), and my decision to be with her or not, would have very little to do with other people’s attitudes. . . . And since this thread is about the practice and understanding/lack of understanding of Sin Sod, given the societal structure in thailand and lack of any kind of governmental social safety net it seems perfectly normal and acceptable to me.

    Reply

  166. Hi TLL,
    Your updated site looks simple, clean, easy to navigate – very good work! My comment is not really specific to Sin Sod, but the post brings a couple of things to mind again for me regarding cultural perceptions within Thailand that will probably be a little hard for me to emotionally accept if/when I come to Bangkok and if/when I become involved with a Thai woman, which may happen or may not. First is this. I am usually attracted to women of dark complexion with very dark/black hair. Don’t know why . . . but, this just seems to be my physical preference when it comes to women who are, in my eyes, extraordinarily beautiful. In Thailand, my preferred “look” seems to be indigenous and most prevalent with women from the northeastern/Isaan region. Unfortunately in Thailand, my preferred “look” also equates to the thai version of what some people here in the U.S. mean when using the term “white trash”, i.e., a very unattractive (either very fat, or extremely thin) woman with no education, no money, no manners and a loud cackling laugh! Too bad, because I am not poor, uneducated, or low-class, I just happen to dig dark-toned women. I know better than to ever “act-out” or lose my cool in public, but I can visualize myself being at least a little bit tweaked by some sharp internal emotional currents caused by passing snide looks, comments made just out of ear-shot, and the knowledge that “respectable thais” (with purses full of whitener cream), who I might have developed a friendship with would not appreciate her presence with me at any type of social/business affair because of the real loss of face for them and myself that would occur if I were to cross this cultural forbidden zone. . . .maybe you could clarify something for me. Would the loss of face caused by Westerner/Farang with a dark-skin toned woman who obviously has familial roots in Northeastern Thailand still be in effect and extend to a woman who was not a “bar girl”, or had never worked in a bar, but simply originated from Issan? I ask this question because my Thai language instructor from Bangkok (with whom I have lessons via Skype Video), is from the Isaan Region . . .she is dark, she is smart, she at least appears to be a very nice, punctual, well mannered and interesting woman. I don’t intend to ask her out by the way, she is at least 15 years younger than me and I don’t do the middle-age guy, young girl thing. She just came to mind as a good example of a cool female who happens to be dark skinned and whose family comes from Isaan. Another thing that always strikes me as being severely and sadly ironic with male dominated cultures, such as Thailand appears to be, is that nearly the entire weight of a family’s societal standing, brand, face , etc. . . whatever you want to call it (as well as the burden of maintaining economic security) rests on the shoulders of women. If she marries and bears a child with a young thai man (who subsequently dumps her) . . . she is then perceived as next to useless in thai society. More than a little bizzare and f**** up in my opinion. But, as you said, if you’re gonna come over here and live you must accept and embrace the culture. I do. And I look forward to it. (Please Note: I know very well that our western cultures carry their own heavy bag of dark, misguided perceptions.) . . . Thank you again for your exceptional blog. I don’t really know exactly how to describe its vibe, but, for me it doesn’t feel or read like a travelogue, or the usual ex-pat banter. There is something very street-level and real, yet intelligent, and useful about it. Keep up the good writing.

    Brian

    Reply

    • Hi Brian,

      Thanks for your kind comments about the blog. Let me clear a few things up regarding Isaan, as I have a lot of experience with the region.

      Firstly, not all Isaan women are dark-skinned; this is a strange myth and I’m unsure how it came about. My girlfriend was born in Kalasin, which is in Isaan. She is white-skinned compared with the large majority of Thais. This probably has a lot to do with strong Chinese genes coming through from generations back.

      The darker Isaan-Thai people are usually from nearer the Cambodian border which is right down the bottom near Surin, Sisaket, etc. I have a friend with a GF from Korat who is very dark-skinned.

      I lived in Samui for about a year, and you’ll find the women from the South are generally darker skinned than in other parts of Thailand. My best Thai friend is from Surratthani, and she is very dark, almost Malay looking. This is because, like Isaan has its roots in Laos, the Southern islands/mainland have links with Malaysia.

      Secondly, not all Isaan people are poor; far from it. And many foreigners find they are looked down upon when they move to the region for being poorer than many of the locals; fact. Yes there are what we would class as poor people, but if I’m honest, the poverty I’ve encountered in the slums of Bangkok is worse than anything I’ve seen in Isaan. Many Isaan people are well educated. My GF’s degree is better than mine lol! And she’s wealthier on paper than I am. Isaan has many, many rich families. So much so that towns like my GF’s are attracting car garages from BMW and Ford now, at double the prices of the UK/US. Many live, work and make bank in Isaan, and couldn’t care less what foreigners think of the girls who work the bars of tourist districts. Moreover, most of the girls wouldn’t looked twice at an aging foreigner. They’re too busy dreaming of young Korean boy bands.

      When it comes to Isaan girls and the bar; think about it like this. There are 65m people in Thailand, of which 25m are registered as living in the Isaan region. Historically Thailand has been a poor country, and Isaan is the poorest region in Thailand (by GDP), so therefore it is proportionately represented in that industry. However, don’t get it twisted, there are girls from all over Thailand working in that industry – many from Bangkok, lots from the North and Southern mainland, too.

      Isaan is huge, just look at it on the map of Thailand. To say all Isaan people are one way or another would be pure ignorance. Yes, there are Isaan girls in bars, a lot of them. But there are millions more getting up every morning and doing 9-5s in good jobs in Bangkok and elsewhere – like your language teacher, no doubt. There is an estimated 1.7m people (men and women) involved in the sex industry in one way or another in Thailand. Let’s say 750,000-1m are from Isaan, that leaves you about 24m potential Isaan partners – depending on age of course 🙂 !

      What do Thais think of people from Isaan?

      Well, some do discriminate, yes, largely because education in the region has deliberately been socially engineered to create a low paid workforce that fuels the rest of the country – so lack of education creates the “stupid” stigma, as many Isaan people work in low paid jobs and are therefore looked down on.

      Of course, as a foreigner with a girlfriend originally from Isaan I always assume that people will assume the worst of her. We laugh about it. And when people get to know my GF, see that she runs her own business, works 7-days a week, has never asked me for money, is independent as hell, and is a genuinely lovely person, they say, “she’s from Isaan, but she’s different”, in their own ignorant way.

      I won’t lie though. The darker skinned your GF is here, as a foreigner, people will judged. Hostorically dark has meant poor because of the sun exposure from worker outside, and of course the lower classes not of the ruling Thai-Chinese ilk. However, its BS, Thailand has man, man rich darker skinned people. But sadly this is embedded in the culture. White is seen as superior. It isn’t nice but it’s prevalent. There are whitening clinics everywhere, whitening products on store shelves, and Thai women will often comment with each other on how dark/white they look today.

      But SOME Thais, like any other culture, will pick and choose their favourites. They’ll discriminate against the everyday Isaaner, but when it comes to Isaan celebrities like Tony Jaa, Mum Jokmuuk, Buakaw Por Pramuk, Sek Loso, Paradorn Srichaphan and a heap of Luuk Kung (mixed) Thai actresses from Isaan they claim these people as famous, “good” Thais.

      My advice to you would be the same as in any other country. Judge people as individuals. Don’t strip people of their humanity based on the wild generalisations or misguided perceptions of others. For example, if you fell for a beautiful native American Indian woman in the US, would you not date her because ignorant racists say they’re all lazy alcoholics and hookers? I didn’t know my GF was from Isaan when I met her. To be honest I don’t give a toss where a person is from; race and territories are just perceptions of the mind.

      I hope this has helped a bit. Thanks!

      Reply

  167. Fix:

    “Thank you for clarifying the matter, especially regarding the tricky part where it may appear that the bride’s parents are not giving the issue may appear may seem as refusing it.”

    should have been:

    “Thank you for clarifying the matter, especially regarding the tricky part where it may appear that the bride’s parents are not giving the issue ***too much importance***.”

    Since I’m writing this, I’ll add that my understanding is that – in Asian cultures – your “face” impacts the way people will treat you, hence “giving face” to your in-laws is of the outermost importance and it will come back to you as well.

    I also think that “face” transcends cultures and is relevant in Western cultures, too, but Westerners are not aware of that, maybe because we have a different name for it (e.g. “being respectable”) and handle it in a different manner. The more I study Asian cultures, the more I can relate them to Western ones. Human nature doesn’t change.