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9 Questions You MUST Ask Yourself Before Buying a Condo in Thailand

Every expat has thought about it, and many have done it – some regrettably so and others beaming at the mouth over the joy of owning some bricks and mortar in the Land of Smiles.

After all, it's one of the few things that can make one feel at home in a country with fairly strict laws on land ownership, employment and business creation for foreign nationals.

Foreign nationals are permitted to buy a condo (freehold) without restriction, but only in a building where more than 51% of the total number of units are Thai owned, otherwise foreign nationals are restricted to a leasehold condo.

Buying a condo might seem like the logical thing to do, especially if you're sick of fattening your landlord's pocket each month with rent money, or if you're holidaying twice/thrice a year and splashing out on hotels.

But there's a bucket load of things you need to consider before signing on the dotted line for your slice of Thai pie.

Now, before I get started, let me just make it clear who this post isn't for.

This post isn't for anyone who has so much cash that throwing down 5 MB+ for a condo is a mere drip in their champagne glass.

If you don't give a monkey's bottom whether you see a return on your money, or whether you're being blinded by marketing ploys, or whether your condo was built by builders without any building qualifications; stop reading now – because you're going to buy a condo regardless of my advice, and probably a speedboat, too.

This post is for those who have stacked a modest amount of money in the bank and are now looking to make a wise investment, or to simply put down  digs in their favourite part of Thailand, with the vision of having a future here, or at the very least a holiday home.

Now that we're clear, let's start!

1. How Big is the Rabbit Hutch?

tiny condo thailand

The future of condo living in Thailand? Image source: nydailynews.com

It's no secret in the Thai property industry that when you build a condo block close to public transport links, the beach or local nightlife, the developer drastically reduces the size of the condos and inflates the price.

People pay over the odds for convenience, and often end up making sacrifices that later down the line become very important and possibly regretful.

Just a few weeks ago, a friend and I went to see a condo in Ekkamai, Bangkok. The said condo was a 2-bedroom, approximately 60 sq. m., B35,000 a month.

During the viewing, the landlord showing us around mentioned she had other condos, one of which was near On Nut station. It was a 41 sq. m two bedroom for B30,000 a month.

We'd already turned our noses up at the small size of the one we were viewing, but 41 square metres! How do you fit two bedrooms in that?

The lady went on to explain the market and how developers were increasingly making condos near stations smaller to maximise profits and squeeze buyers.

The scarcer the land to build on the higher the blocks will go and the smaller the apartments will become.

But here's the crazy thing: The condo we were viewing was only 6 or 7 minutes walk from the station. So, just by making the sacrifice of having to walk an extra few minutes to the station, for not even £100 more a month, we could have 21 sq. m. more space.

If we were buyers, the difference could have been as much as 1.5 MB.

2. Would You Pay This Much Back Home?

Wherever it is you want to buy, start your search from the most convenient or attractive part of the area – the station, the beach, the shopping mall, wherever – and gradually work your way backwards noting prices, until you get to a point where you say, “Hey, that's too far to walk”, or, “I can't be doing with that motorbike taxi ride every day”.

Moreover, I know you're excited about living in Thailand or owning a holiday rental, but as we all know, Thailand has a way of blinding us to certain realities, and condos is one of those.

Would you shed out £60-80k back home for a rabbit hutch, an unfurnished one at that?

Make sure you do the math. What often seems cheap in Thailand isn't all that cheap when you make a market comparison. Compare how much you are paying per sq.mt with what you'd pay back home.

Factor in the relative price. If you are paying 5MB for a condo here, the same would be at least 10-15MB in a major city in the UK or US.

Also consider the long-term ramifications:

  • Will you and your partner be getting under each other's feet all the time in such a small place?
  • It's big enough now but what about when the little one is a few years old?
  • If you're a singleton, is it big enough to rent a spare room or have people over to stay while their on holiday?
  • It looks spacious on the plans but how much stuff have you got and how much are you likely to accumulate while living here?
  • Won't you want a bigger balcony to sit out on?
  • Do you really want to look at that main road every day?
  • Having a gym upstairs is great, but will those 10kg dumbbells and two bikes really suffice?
  • The swimming pool looks good now, but how often is it going to be cleaned and serviced?

3. Are You Buying a Condo Built by Mr O' Rilley?

mr o reily fawlty towers

“I thought you said a wall Mr Fawlty?”

If you're a Fawlty Towers fan, then you'll be familiar with the building work of the jolly Irish builder in the picture above, Mr O' Riley.

Humour aside, the build quality of condos in Thailand is appalling.

Even those developer brands touting their work as “European standard” have a lot to answer for, particularly when you take a walk past the site and see the dubious flip-flop hammer and chisel techniques on display.

I remember a friend visiting from the UK sometime ago. A roofer and plasterer by trade, he was gobsmacked by what he observed on the building site opposite his hotel.

At times he'd sit by the pool muttering, “What the?” “What is he doing?” “No, no, no, you can't do that”!

I don't blame the builders, though. In fact, I admire them.

The majority have no formal building education to speak of, the tools they are given to do the job are inadequate, and their lives are treated with such contempt that when it comes to safety standards and wages it's a wonder they manage to make it from one job to the next.

But let's get to the ethics of the Thai construction industry later.

The fact is, the large majority of condos experience build problems in the first few years of operation. If you're lucky you'll escape with the simple stuff:

  • the low quality materials used for the facia of the building will fade under the glare of the sun
  • the cheap tiles used to lay the flooring in the hallways and your apartment will crack on poorly laid floors
  • door will handles rust
  • walls will peel
  • If you're unlucky, there's leaking and subsidence to deal with
building subsides thailand

An apartment project in Pathum Thani subsides.

Don't get me wrong, nearly all condo buildings stand the test of time (except the one above, of course) in that they don't fall down. Generally, however, they do require ongoing maintenance work that you wouldn't expect to do on a new property back in your home country.

Of course the advantage of renting is that this cost is picked up by the owner of the block or the individual condo you are renting privately.

The question is this: Have you researched the materials being used to build the condo you want to buy? If not, why not?

The fact is, if you're planning on paying 2.5MB for a 33 sq. m condo built with paper-thin walls, the cheapest floor tiles from HomePro and a single kitchen hob, then you're getting shafted. Period.

4. Are You Happy Paying an Inflated Market Rate?

Every real-estate agent in Thailand will be all over this post telling me that the market is booming and 6% yields on rental properties are common.

And you know what, they're right. If, that is, you are Thai and bought off plan with a heads-up from the developer.

Here's a quote from the NomadCapitalist who knows a fair thing or two about property markets and their “legal scams” in Asia:

Here’s one way Thais are playing the real estate market in Bangkok. Connected Thais will find “off-plan” condo projects in areas along the Skytrain line, such as Sukhumvit or Sathorn in Bangkok. Developers require ten percent of the condo price down at signing, which can be paid in installments over one to two years. That means a 500-square-foot, $200,000 condo can essentially be optioned for about $1,000 a month.

The plan in this scenario is to do an off-the-books sale of the purchase contrast to a longer-term investor (or sucker) once construction gets underway. Considering condo prices increase as much as few percentage points per quarter once it goes “on plan”, Thai investors can as much as double their out-of-pocket investment before they flip the property. And because it was off the books, they avoid taxes or much scrutiny.

Such opportunities are not as open to westerners. You have to be connected, and Thailand is very proud of the fact that it was never colonized by any European power. That means no foreigner is going to penetrate their inner circle.

(Quote source: Nomad Capitalist)

Ask yourself this simple question: why are their so many condos sitting empty in Thailand, particularly in Bangkok, yet, the owners would rather have them remain empty than drop the rental rate?

I will tell you:

Quite simply because – considering the points made above – these twilight investors are prepared to take a hit on a few for the sake of keeping the market artificially inflated, thus enabling their development investments in off-plan condo buildings that get flipped off the books at double-bubble (no pun intended) to flourish.

Call me an alarmist, but one day it will go pop, big time.

5. Is it Really a Good Investment?

I nearly did it once. Five years ago, a friend and I slapped down a deposit on a condo in Koh Samui. It was to be a holiday home-cum-part yearly retreat.

We justified our spontaneous purchase on the continual growth of the island's economy, and the fact that friends could rent it when they came out for a holiday.

Sadly my friend got home, took off the rose-coloured glasses and figured that the cash would be safer in an ISA.

He was right.

In some ways I wish we'd gone ahead, not least because I'd have a cool little escape in Samui and because market prices have doubled since then.

However, the reality is that we probably wouldn't have been able to resell it anyway. In addition, the sheer abundance of new builds means the rental market is highly competitive and you need to offer up a cheap deal to make sure your gaff is full year-round.

Not to mention that I can book a decent hotel on a deal from Agoda or Hotel.com for B1.500 a night if I do want to go there for a holiday, hassle free.

Think about this scenario…

For example: When you buy a property in the UK, even if the market crashes post buy, if you hold on for 10 years, you'll still end up getting more than you paid for it, and in most cases make a profit.

Moreover, you will be able to rent the property and make a good yield, regardless of resale market conditions. The crash and climb of the 90s and of the mid 2000s has proven this to be true.

This is not the case for condos in Thailand. As mentioned above, the money is in knowing the man who knows the man; investing off plan before the project is announced and flipping off the books.

Buying a condo to rent out for profit is risky at best, unless of course you have a fixed 10-year agreement with a multinational company that wants to rent your place for staff, or a similar scenario.

And here's why:

Condos for rent are two a penny. The sheer abundance of choice makes it a renter's market. And while your condo might be a popular rent when it's brand new, when ten new blocks go up in the same square mile over the next few years, you'll have to drastically reduce your rental price to compete with the fancy new kids on the block.

Once your air-con unit starts looking shabby and the pigeons have done their worst to the exterior of the property, your condo is way down on the list of units would-be renters favour.

This huge amount of choice, combined with inflated pricing, empty units and huge borrowing from the banks, is all part of the the predicted bubble. 

Of course, there are exceptions. For example, buy a 38 MB penthouse on Soi Ruamrudee in Bangkok and you might get 250k+ a month for as long as the big banks and embassies are still in the area – even when the block is a little dated.

But I don't have that sort of cash to shed out, do you?

The sums just don't add up. There's not enough money to made to take on the risk of an investment.

Let's say I buy a 3MB 1-bedroom condo. Let's say it's fairly near a BTS station in Bangkok and I get 20k a month for it, and manage to rent it without it ever being empty.

It would take me 12.5 years to make my money back, let alone a profit. And what are the chances of always having a tenant in there? And when that 12.5 years is up, what are the chances of being able to sell the condo for more than I paid for it?

Zero.

And if I did get 3MB back on it, the value of that money will have depreciated over the previous decade, anyway.

Oh, and you have to pick up all the maintenance fees, too.

I'll rent, thanks.

6. Are You Being Blinded by Furnishings You Won't Get?

buy condo thailand

The showroom condo might look like this, but you'll probably need another 1MB+ for this level of furnishing.

I'll never forget the time I accompanied a condo-buying friend to a showroom in Tong Lor, Bangkok. We were given free smoothies and chocolates just for looking around. It was five star treatment that made you feel like you'd won the lottery – and buying one of these condos is the missing piece of your life.

We were showed round a beautifully decorated condo. It was small but felt so cosy and looked really well-finished. Then it struck me to ask the sales lady:

“So which type of unit comes decorated like this”. “None, sir. This is just for show”.

I'm not kidding, from the kitchen units down to the silver plug sockets, you didn't get a thing for your 6 MB. I finished my smoothie, drinking down the realisation that the entire setup was an oasis.

They'd used a European fitted kitchen, and other high-end furnishings that would cost the price of the condo itself to buy and fit (properly) in Thailand.

Without this stuff, it was a mere hamster cage, without the pretty running wheel and drinking bowl.

So before you put that deposit down, make sure you fully understand what, if any, furniture and fittings you will be getting. And at what price the top-end stuff in the show home will set you back post-purchase.

7. Is Your Deposit Refundable?

Question: Name a way to make money out of building a condo block other than selling the units?

Answer: Get truckloads of people to be so overwhelmed at the prospect of a free iPad and “special price today only” that they leave deposits with your commission-hungry sales staff.

Believe or not, condo developers in Thailand make millions of Baht every year from non-refundable deposits.

First they lure you in with as much free water as you can drink, some snacks and smiles from some extremely attractive “pretties” (before the feminists hang me for using that word, it's not something I made up. This is a real term used in Thailand for women who stand at sales events looking pretty).

Then they show you the amazing decor you won't be getting and, lastly, the “today only” price that is yours for a small 20,000 Baht deposit – if you “just sign here, sir”.

Do yourself a favour and say you are not sure you want to buy, but, if you leave a deposit, it will be so you don't miss out on the special offer and freebies.  But! Make sure the deposit is refundable within 14 days (or other negotiated period).

Get this in writing. Or, if you can afford to throw away 20k, go ahead and enjoy another bottle of free water.

8. Is Your Dream Condo Complex Destined to be a Condotel?

A condo hotel, also known as a hotel-condo or a Contel, is a building, which is legally a condominium but which is operated as a hotel, offering short term rentals, and which maintains a Front Desk.

This little detail often comes as a post-build shock to those buying in the early stages of construction. It should be stipulated in the contract but is easily missed or conveniently left out.

So what's the problem?

Well, unless you fancy herds of tourists around the pool, coach parties gathering for trips in the lobby, sex tourists shaking the floorboards at all hours and the constant feeling of staying in a hotel, I'd enquire as to how many, if any, of the condos in your block are to be set aside as hotel/short rent rooms.

Maybe you aren't bothered about living in a condotel, but it's worth asking about, and you really should be told if indeed units are to be allocated for this purpose.

9. How Do You Feel About the Thai Construction Industry?

condo unsafe thailand

Low pay, poor safety standards, lack of equipment = sub-standard building

Thus far, this post has been all bout the reddies, the wonga, the Benjamins, the best bang for your buck and how to make sure you don't waste your hard-earned money on a condo that's not right for you.

But what of the workers who build the condos? What about the unscrupulous developers who cut every possible corner, including worker safety and paying below the minimum wage to unregistered, immigrant workers.

It's rife.

I've been observing the building of a massive condo development near my home for the last year.

Every day I see the workers shipped in from their campsite/worker digs in what look like pre WW2 trucks, stuffed over capacity and the workers forced to endure the black smoke pouring out of the exhaust. It's a painful sight.

To their credit, these men and women have built an amazing two building complex with very few power tools.

Usually armed with little more than a hammer and chisel, they scale the structure dangerously, day and night, rain come shine, to erect condos they themselves will never be able to afford – not that they'd want to pay such an extortionate amount of money for a tiny space in the middle of the sky.

Knowing what the materials cost and what they get paid, they're probably having a good laugh at us!

But seriously…

When you employ the cheapest labour you can get, based solely on the fact that the workers don't have the qualifications to ask for more, or the voice to be treated fairly, and you give them the bare minimum of tools, making it extremely difficult to do the job, it is, in my opinion, slave labour.

As for worker safety, you only need to look at the flip flop-blessed feet navigating the wooden scaffolding to make a judgement on how much the Thai construction industry values the lives of its workers.

I'm not trying to start some sort of “farang union” here, but I believe in fair.

The workers should be given better training, better tools, more money and be better protected by health and safety standards.

I don't know about you, but it makes me feel uncomfortable seeing people treated this way, and a free Samsung Galaxy and a couple of bottles of water won't make me forget these facts.

Got a condo-buying experience to share? I'd love to hear about it below in the comments section.

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  1. I leased on a usufruct and the nicest Thai lady on earth let me sell it with no gimmicks after 4 years or so. It ended up costing me about 6000baht a month, but it was a permanent address with good parking but the building was falling apart. Also the noise factor became so horrific it was unbearable. The maintenance guy and his Thai wife would charge ridiculous prices for upgrades to anything. The pool was only usable 50% of the time due to algae or over toxic use of chemicals. Also 30% of the owners didn't pay their maintenance fees and rented out their units on Airbnb to dodgy sex deprived idiots and other noisy partygoers who could care less about the premises. Was it worth it? Maybe for a a while but it became unlivable due to all of the bove factors.
    Reply

    • Rex, Please name and shame this place. Air BnB has ruined many a fine establishment. Where is this place? Some reputable condo owners will pursue that unlawful behaviour through the Thai courts. So, Name and Shame
      Reply

  2. I rent a lovely condo in a gated complex, when I signed the contract all I could see out of my windows was grass, a lake, trees, and a mountain. The next planned phase of development for the complex has now started, now I get to see buildings being built that will take away some of those views. I contacted the owner and told him "drop the rent or I'd walk and find somewhere else".I negotiated a 25% drop in rent and will move out at the end of the contract, it's still OK but the grass has gone, it's now a building site and over the next 12 months I won't see most of the lake. But the owner's income is now 25% under his planned income, and will never reach that again having lost part of the stunning views his condo had. If he drops his rental price by another 25% I might stay another year, I like the area, but 50% under his planned rental income, that's no longer a good return. Actually he's lucky, 2 condos in this building are now empty because the renters have left due to the predicted building noise, so he's better off to some extent, he's still getting something.Areas change, we all know from experiences in our home countries, all it takes is a grotty family moving into the area, an old church hall to become a drugs rehab centre, or the field next to our street becoming an affordable housing project, and the idyll we had is an impossible to sell nightmare.Renting allows you to move with the times, so I'll throw away my money by renting nice places every year or two.
    Reply

    • Spot on. Areas do change and, like you suggest, back home there are areas now considered run down that used to be considered well-to-do. The problem in Thailand, particularly the major cities, is that planning permission regulations seem to be non-existent. I've viewed condos where you can almost reach across the balcony and touch the opposite block. So a seemingly good investment today may seem like a nightmare one a few years down the line. At least you have retained the luxury to be able to move, and to negotiate.
      Reply

    • That link you posted is from a Phuket real estate agent, so obviously they have self-interest. Phuket is the biggest island so it stands to reason that most of the investment happens there, but Samui is still very popular because it isn't as busy and retains a more island-like feel to it. Phuket is very popular with Chinese investors, and to a lesser extent Russian investors.
      Reply

  4. There are some flaws in the article. When renting out a place it’s not about “getting your money back in X years”, it’s about the return you get from your investment. Currently my bank gives me 0,15% interest. Renting out a place will give you more interest AND you have property. Even if the value goes down a little bit, the bottom line can potentially be better.
    Reply

    • It's not a flaw, because only after you recoup your investment do you start to make a profit. And even then, you need to factor in inflation. It doesn't matter if your projection on paper tells you you're making 5% interest a year if you never recoup your investment. By the time that you do, your condo might be so old that no one is interested in renting it, at least not for anything like the amount you want.
      Reply

      • Hi.Does any farang REALLY think seriously about "investing" in Thai property? making the big bucks that they fail to do in their home country?Surely the reason is just to offer stability / security / commitment to their new found life / love(s)?If any one is serious about making an income to any degree from being a Landlord, then Thailand is surely not the place. Try being a Landlord in London for example. No "discriminatory" farang laws there for buying property either.However, due to the strict rules here, we can enjoy the low / value for money renting costs compared to our home countries rates.It all appears to be horses for courses.
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          • Investments???????????Lets do the maths.The condo to which I refer is at a "bargain" price of 1.2m thb.Without spending a hal'penny to replace the existing awful interior "design" or upgraded the dodgy existing plumbing arrangements, and assuming I rented the property out immediately (the going rate being 5,500 thb a month), if I spent nothing on the usual "wear and tear" issues for the very long but forseeable future on behalf of the tenant/s, I would not see any return on my "investment" for at least 18.18 years.Statistically, I'll be dead by then.Thats not an investment. Thats an act of charity.Or I could just spend my money in a much lesser time in Thailand and have a really great time.A REAL estate investor??????Arsenal supporter more like.Full of dreams. Thats kinda cute, but just dreams. Pipe dreams.
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              • Basically, the rent money from the previously quoted deal i.e as you suggest is @ 5.5% of my "investment", but in real terms the hard cash is 5,500 thb & isn't enough to see me through a decent weekend. I feel we have different opinions on what a good deal actually is. Personally, I don't see renting my property out in Thailand would be worth doing if it is purely to make money. 5.5% off@ck all is not enough to bother about. It would take over 20 years to realistically make enough gains to have a good weekend out in Thailand. A hotel can cost more than that for 1 night. But perhaps its not your hard earned cash that you want to invest in such a scheme / scam.
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                • The condo market (foreigner-targeted, particularly on the island of Phuket) is largely propped up by money pouring in from China. Needless to say, this money isn't always legit and they just need somewhere to put it. It's either risk losing it back home or export it and spread it around. Thailand is a great place to do that. The same is happening in Laos.
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                  • Hi. I have no desire to go to Phuket, but Chinese money is buying up the world at the moment. London included. Look at Africa. A whole continent indebted to the financial "assistance" of the Chinese super power. From my own recent experience though, its very difficult, even if it's allowed, to transfer money back to your account outside Thailand, i.e International Transfer. Farang put their money into Thailand, Farang do Not take it out. Also, there are strict restrictions on getting money into Thailand to pay for the condo. In my recent experience I will retain any serious cash I have in my U.K accounts, and then comply with the Thai rules and regulations involved, as and when and if. It's the legitimate Thai response to money laundering I'm informed. Which made me laugh when you think of all the P.L & EFL clubs which are now Thai owned. Do as we say, not as we do i feel. But that's for another day.....
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                    • "....you simply need an FET. " 55555555 Before that, you must have stipulated on your money transfer into your Thai bank account, the reason from the drop down menu that the money is SPECIFICALLY for the purchase of a property. No other reason, if you stated that purpose, then the FET may be issued. Also, the bank wont like multiple transfers to have to trawl through. My solicitors advice was to return all my money in my Thai account back to my London a/c and then transfer it back to the Thai a/c , in just 1 big transfer, with the specific reason "to buy property". Similar advice was also given by a senior sales rep at a new Lumpini build we visited recently.

                    • Well, yes, generally people transfer in one lump, but arranging a few transfers is no problem if it's a huge amount. My good friend in real estate here in Bangkok told me how one Chinese guy bought a 38m condo. He paid cash. No need for an FET on that one no doubt. Palm greasing....

  5. Hi, I'm in a position to perhaps buy a condo within the block which my g.f, son, and I rent.it would make good financial sense from saving the rents etc, and could be a sort of investment for our boy.BUT..................................I believe most Thais are up for a bit of dishonesty / fraud if it goes their way.Therefore...................Can any one recommend a true and honest solicitor / Lawyer in the BKK area? from their own experiences, not because they own / work there.Has anyone tried the Siam Legal company of Solicitors, also available in U.K and other places outside of Thailand.Any good experiences of them to tell?Any advice ( even DON'T DO IT ) would be appreciated.
    Reply

    • Hi Hugh,I can vouch for Siam Legal. There are many cheaper lawyers but they are reputable. I once sought their advice on my "work situation" and they were very helpful. My advice would be to consider:1. Can you see yourselves staying there for the next 10, 15, 20 years? 2. How long will it take to make back your investment? 3. Is the property desirable rental? What sort of occupancy could you expect if you did move on and decide to rent it? 4. Is your son's long term plan to stay in Thailand? Handling a rental from outside Thailand could be a hassle, especially if the ROI is small. 5. What sort of condition is the block in? What sort of condition is it likely to be in in 15 years from now, still a desirable rental?
      Reply

      • Hi,Thanks for your prompt reply.I just felt I needed re-assurance from someone more experienced in the "Thai Culture" way of doing things than relying on my 1st attempt alone.I'm glad to hear your positives about Siam Legal.With regards your further questions:-1) I f***8g hope not. But life can be cruel. Expect the worst. 2) Knowing these c***'s, NEVER. Just do the maths yourself. Accommodation is just SOOOOO cheap here. 3) Desirable?????? Please define......... 4) My son's long term plan seems to be to carry on destroying all things around him by smashing them on the floor. So why change? The U.K Government Racism Policy however, is to keep him (and his kind) in Thailand. 5) The block is about 10 years old. Local builder I'm assured, and like most Thai condos, could do with some T.L.C but that said, it'll do. I believe that there will always be more of an "entry level" condo demand than a numpties rich bollocks condo.And don't forget, the sky train is a'commin' to these pards. Yeeee Hi.....In15 - 20 years time it will look complete shyte. Thus blending in with the rest of BKK, a massive selling point I'm sure.The plan is that if / when I go, my son and his mum can stay in their home / local area / school and not need to worry about being kicked out of their home while dealing with my untimely / belated demise.That's it really.We talk about the g.f getting a Thai mortgage in a few years, and getting a house / land somewhere nice, outside of BBk. We both like H.H or Cha Am.But we need to get rid of her Debts / loans.So this might give her a rent free, bigger sq. meters housing while breaking free of the Thai system of Gov. Control / yer f*****ed for life policy, from her early teens. I believe this is a Team Effort. Or I could just play on her emotions and really rack up the rent. Who knows?I'm told "never let them know you're worth more to them dead, than still being alive". A Leeds United manager lasts a lot longer they say.Thanks again for the Siam Legal heads up.Remember, There's only one real football club in North London. Unless you're counting Barnet.
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  7. My own experience has been really good. Nine years ago I rented a condo in Jomtien, Pattaya for 6 months in a 12 year old building and came to appreciate what it had to offer, which was that it was quiet (no ground-floor bars and far enough from the road not to have traffic noise) and yet was within a couple of hundred yards of restaurants, bars, shops, and a regular baht-bus service into town. After my six months I decided to buy and am living happily ever after.
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  8. I bought Arcadia Beach Continental at Pattaya by developer, Height Holding. I paid around $15K Singapore Dollars. But the VP, Oliver cancel my unit and sold to other. The issue is merely I said him sales man not a professional and this Mother fucker actually called and scolded me. I then told him that the fault lies from this salesman. Now I can’t even 1 cent back. I love this condominium but I lost everything. So be careful even when the developer is famous. I can’t do anything. But, kindly let me know if there are other ways that I can seek help. Height Holding have the best Lawyer in Pattaya, mind you. I shouldn’t sign the contract so soon.
    Reply

  10. Enjoyed your article, very informative and truthful. I've always rented in S.E.A. Its a no brainer really. Well done for recognising and highlighting the efforts of the poor building workers also. Wonderful insights in this whole document. regards Dave.
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      • Hi I dont think you are being at all fair. You raised the poor quality of the facia on buildings. Did you not see in the news the entire building in the center of london burn to the ground killing so many people. Apparently poor materials and tradesmen to blame and maybe many hundreds of buildings throughout the UK could also be disasters waiting to happen. I watch Kevin Mcleods grand designs and am amazed anything gets built in uk given the antics of council planners. See owners go to poland for glass because british factories not capable. Houses built in german factories and then shipped along with german work gangs to complete in a fraction of the time. Please dont get me wrong. What you have said is correct but it is just wrong to say it is a thai issue. Buyer beware wherever you are.
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  14. Hello all, I must say you helped me think. But as you mentioned, I am in a passionate phase about buying something in Thailand. I want to diverse my risk, though. I am now looking for some partners and investors to purchase few condos in Pattaya. Obviously, its very hard to guess which way the market is going, but this place seems to me with some potential. Paradoxly, the prices are the same as in Bangkok, after a small research. For me, its just a reason to have some kind of a business with Thailand to have a legitimate reason to keep coming :). What do you, guys, think? :) Have a great day, Tom, Czech rep.
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    • My best friend and I had the misfortune of buying a condo Say Yuan Buri in Rawai Phuket . The developer refused to surrender our title so we enlisted and lawyer and took to court . I’m out abscece he removed our property and leased our condo out at hotel rates . He has been charged with fraud and theft but as yet is yet to face any charges . Despite the fact that we had paid for our property we were not allowed access of our own property as it was still legally the Develper . Many court battles later the Developer has gone bankrupt and we have bot seen one baht of our money . The police and the courts did FA for us . My advice DO NOT buy off the plan but only re sales ( ie with Chanote - tile deed) No title deed means Yhe property under this law is still the develper and if he descided to evict you expect the local authorities to do very little . Very distressing experience that had left me bitter about a country I so loved .BUYER BEWARE is all I can say !!!!
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  15. Thank you so much for your two articles on this! It’s so helpful. You have really changed my mind from buying in Bangkok. No idea about the reality of the secondary market, since it’s never the case here in the UK or US. Anyway, thank you!
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  16. So I want to buy a condo for my retirement, I have a property in Australia paid off and I want to rent it out while I live in a condo somewhere in thailand, I will add that I will be purchasing the condo with no added interest or loans, cash that I have saved up. what are the risks of losing my property? will it be there for ever so I can keep or sell one day iff I choose, or will I buy it and somehow lose it.
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    • Hey Chris,If you can get an retirement visa and make sure you buy an freehold the risk of you losing it is very low or not existing. Selling it and moving the money out of Thailand I can't answer upon but I am sure there is multiple resources and stories around. You might seek advice of got legal help on a site like Thaivisa.Freehold ownership is very strong generally which also creates issues. One of my friends lives in a condominium built by San Siri and there is multiple owners there not paying the common fee. Leading to savings and lack of maintenance. This in turn leads to market value decrease.Good luck with your plans but as stated it might be more profitable to rent in some locations rather then buying. Your money might make give a better return invested.
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    • Please be very careful my best friend and I were robbed blind and the police and courts did nothing to help . But only RE SALE properties with Chanote / tittle deed without one disputed payong for your propert it remains legally the developers - your at his mercy .!!! Good luck ! Beauatiful country and people left me sad and grieving that guys had happened and frankly gob smacked how little the Thai authorities did for us .
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    • Hey Chris, I am urgently selling my Bangkok condo at Sukhumvit at a big discount. Reason being the transfer is due and I have financing issues. Contact me ASAP at Line ID: wuffruff P.S. I am not an agent. Just someone who need to sell her condo urgently.
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  17. Hi.I am happy condo owner .But I did not need those money for anything else.Its 20 yrs old building.Have seen it" almost naked" before it was painted.Have so great dramatic seaview from both balcony and terasse it never felt " small".Got it fully furnished( mahagony like furniture dont think he put real mahagony.Have it 5 yrs.Our newest neighbour is 5 star hotel.I dont think with real estate on short term profit but similar condo sold for 50% more than I paid.
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  18. I agree with many valid points here. I will keep this in mind but have another experience I can share. I bought a small before completion popular domestic condominium in Phuket.The price with basic furniture was around 40k THB/sqm and I put around 100k THB on making it ready to sublet. My point being it was very cheap for the area and there is a resale market toward domestic and expats. Value increase is around 8% per year and my occupancy is giving ROI over 5% excluding setting of a few percent for maintenance fees/renovation.Would I invest more after my experience? I don't know I have seen some areas having their resale value go the wrong way. The right price I might consider and if the local/expat demand is high enough. But this would never be money I need for the future. The risk is to high for being my retirement plan!
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      • Yeah I had knowledge of the plausible return when purchasing it. ROI is still 10 years at best so it's for the long run. How will the area look in 5 will I still be able to charge the same? I wish I knew but time will tell I am in no rush unless I can get bargains on similar property that is easy to sublet longer periods.
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  19. Hi thanks for this thoughtful post! This and all the comments are really helpful.Me and my husband are about to buy a condo in BKK since we lived here for 2years so far and we both liked this place to live for next 5-6 years at least. So we decided to buy a condo instead of renting. I have a question here, here are two options that I'm thinking at the moment.Option A: - 10 min walking from BTS On nut. - Built in 4 years ago - Room is new, no one pre-owned. means we need to buy it from the developer. Fully furnished with all nice new washing machine, induction, aircon, fridge etc - 2 bedroom, 2bath, 68sq.m - 6.3MBOption B: - 10 min walking from BTS Prompong - Right near the Emporium - Built in 30 years ago - Building itself is old (of course), room is nice, clean and huge. - Half furnished, but most of them aren't my style so I will buy new funitures like couch, table, fridge etc. - 2 bed 2 bath, 140sqm - 6.6 MBWhich one sounds better to buy and live in? (And maybe resale in 5-7 years) I personally love the big space, since I'm kinda not loving TH's small living room size. But old building really makes me re-think about reselling. Cause by the time we sell it back it willl be almost 40 years old building. But the huge merit is it's right at the Emporium!!!Please let me know if you guys have any thoughts that we need to consider. Thanks a lot.Ps - is there any chance new devleoper bought an old condo to redevelopment? If so, what will the co-owners get? Is there any case like this?
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    • That's a tough choice. Hopefully some of the property investors who are still following the comments here will see this and offer their opinion, which will be more informed than mine.My first question would be: how much would you save over 10 years by buying vs. renting? I can't imagine on option A that you'd save much, if anything?The older condo buildings have much bigger rooms, as noted in option B. I'd have a surveyor look at it and check for damp and structural issues. Have you looked for issues like mildew, cracks in walks and on the balcony, etc. This is all standard stuff you should start with. I'd certainly try and knock them down on price on Option B. However, the location is prime. Resale wise I'm not sure. Is it leasehold? I'd imagine, due to the location, it won't lose much value, and if the exchange rate is favourable when you come to sell you may make on it.Option A is much, much smaller and could be rented for around 25-35k, no? No swimming pool in either?I prefer newer buildings, but in this case would look for something a bit bigger for option A. Perhaps go up to 6.5 MB and get some more Sq.m.
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    • Hi, I am asking myself similar questions when it comes to choosing between new and old condos. I do have the answer yet. However, my Thai colleagues told me that it is, to my surprise, very difficult for developers and government to buy up properties for redevelopment or infrastructure projects. This could be a reason why you see many odd shaped lands on which new condos are built. It is obviously more profitable to have bigger and regular shaped lots for development. With so many old low rise buildings sitting there not redeveloped, I suspect that the incentive for developers to buy up 40 years old high rise condos for development is very little.
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  20. I agree with you on this 100%. People are so fixated on owning a property that they overlook the risks and opportunity costs. Even those who have 'made money' by appreciated value. Have you really made money? Perhaps. What if you had invested your money in another asset, or a property in a fair market?Compare what your money is doing renting vs owning. Renting is not necessarily throwing money away. In certain cases, renting is the smarter choice.
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  21. Person with the normal common sense can do good investment in Bangkok like anywhere else.I bought my first unit in Bkk 15 years ago and maintenance has been good and value of the property has got up considerably. Lived there those years by myself and no problems at all. Unit is now rented out, still no problems...
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  22. Guys it's thailand not the UK it's a poor country but do you think that the new build property in the uk are problem free? No if you don't want people close by than a flat is not for you you get scum everywhere even in a great block in the uk as some flats are for council families
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  23. I bought twice in Turkey and lost money both times on resale. The key thing then, as now, is artificially high prices aimed at foreigners that dont know their market. Yes condos look good value but they are not.My advice is NEVER buy in a country whos language you do not speak and write fluently. You will always rely on someone else and that person will not have your best interest at heart or take the care you would.Renting gives you far more choice. Often you can invest your money to pay for all or most of the rent. You can move when you tire of the area or the neighbours. You can upsize or downsize as required. For the most part you need not concern yourself with problems arising from poor workmanship.But one thing I have learned is that even when renting you can get (temporarily) stuck in an environment you did not know about when viewing - like noisy neighbours; banging doors; a hotel with new guests (problems) every few days; noise from outside you didnt think would get into your space. At least after your rental period you can move easily and cheaply and try again.Having tried a cheap hotel with a pool and finding out the owners refused to maintain it or the pool and now being in a new building but one that is occupied by inconsiderate door bangers, next time I will look for a detached house.
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    • Ah, the door bangers. My last rental was great until they started doing short-term rents to people on tours of Bangkok. The owner is Thai-Chinese and got in with a tour company to allocate unrented apartments to tour goers. They started banging doors whenever they got in late at night and left early morning. I was also near the lift, which meant constant "ding dong" at all hours. I am a bit of moaner when it comes to noise though :) Perhaps the things I notice wouldn't bother others. I'm a light sleeper.
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  24. I bought a second hand condo in Thonglor in Bangkok that came more than adequately furnished with a good fridge and TV, two quality huge beds, two shower rooms - one en suite - plenty of cupboard space, a balcony overlooking one of three pools on the top, 9th floor. It is a 78 sq m corner unit (including the underground carpark), a decent gym and sauna and top security. It was seven years old but had never been lived in. The building (actually several built around the pools) is at the end of a small, quiet soi with two 24-hour shops, very close to top restaurants and bars, a 7 baht bus ride or 20 baht scooter ride to the BTS or the klong boat service. It cost 7.2 million baht (about £140,000 back then). The point is I could get nothing like it for that value anywhere worth living in the UK with its bitterly cold winters, certainly not in the capital city with all its amenities. Service costs are less than 27,000 baht a year if you pay on time (far less than many council taxes in the UK). Easy waste disposal is included. The building has stood the tests of time and estate agents reckon it has risen in value more than a million baht. I can put my own shelves up and bang in picture hooks willy-nilly. I also have the security of knowing it is mine and I can't be evicted. I guess it would rent for about 40,000 baht a month, meaning at current rates I could have rented it for about 14 years for the same cost with nothing to show for it and leaving my wife homeless should I expire. I'm extremely glad I bought it and only wish I had a neighbour (the fire exit is next door, which adds to the quiet and security) but if I did have a neighbour I may have been able to buy that person's flat too and knock them together, as others have done, and got four bedrooms, four bathrooms (although I'd have probably turned one into a study and another into a dressing room), extended the kitchen/dining/living room in one into a big kitchen and dining room and had a very large lounge all for about £300,000 maximum. That to me, a former Londoner, seems like a very good deal indeed compared with the three-storey 1874 town house I once owned with a mortgage of £100,000 next to Hampstead Heath in London. The only hassle is the 90-day reporting. Moreover, as I get older, I am considering building for 2-3 million baht a house upcountry near my wife's well-connected family's home in a company name, profiting considerably because I am confident this place will sell. To me it was a no-brainer but, judging by the article, I may have been rather lucky.
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    • Great to hear such a positive story. I'm sure there are condos in sort after areas such as Thong Lor, Ploen Chit (around Soi Ruamrudee), Ekkamai, which can be good buys if you can afford them. Again, it depends on what you want from the condo. If it is a place you want to live for 20-25 years then you will most likely make back what you've paid in rent and have a property to sell or rent out when you decide to move on. Lower-end condos in not so desirable areas are a different kettle of fish.That house next to the Heath must be worth a fortune now!
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  25. Never ever buy property in Thailand is the worst investment you can make . The writer of this article forgot to mention you have to pay maintenance fee every year and sinking fund plus you got wear & tear etc. The total cost of your unit of 40 square meter per year will be roughly around the Baht50.000 ,- per year to buy a unit of 40 sq meter will cost you +/- 3,4 million instead of buying a condo you buy Thai bonds interest rate 4% per year will bring in an other Baht136.000,- plus the Baht50.000,- you saved =Baht186.000,- divided by 12 months = Baht15500,- per month for that kind of money you can rent a beautiful 40 sq meter unit ! No transfer tax at the land office no corruption etc.. With those bonds you stay very liquid push on the button and your bonds are sold selling your apartment is a nightmare it can take years plus you have to pay minimal 5% commission plus (7% vat) to the real estate agent and you have to pay lawyer fee and tax at the land office plus some coffee money etc, selling your bonds will cost you 0,3% transfer fee . Or you buy shares with minimal 5,5 % dividend payment at the SET of Thailand Tax on dividend is only 10% It makes no sense to own property as a foreigner in Thailand . Any doubt check some websites of real estate agents often you see the selling price and rental price of the property when you calculate the rental return % on his investment it is often between the 1,5 % and 3,5 % and still has to pay the maintenance fee and tear & wear out of it . Go google and check the numbers by your self ! Buying property in Thailand is waisting your money big time though buying shares or bonds in Thailand is pretty good and very transparent Most of the companies at the SET got the annual reports in English as well good luck
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    • Darling didn't you know you have to pay ground rent maintainance fees in every country for a flat ? Sinking fund only when you moved in Wear and tear you get everywhere you live Without that knowledge I wander how you go through your life?
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      • Difference being in your country, you don't need a visa to live in the property you own. And while in Thailand there were considerations that perhaps foreigners renting out their properties are technically working and should thus have a work permit, you wish to invest in such a climate and call it comparable to other fair market economies, go ahead and invest in Thai property.Wear and tear happens in every country. But if you have ever lived long enough in even a quality condo in Bangkok, you know that wear and tear in Thailand is not quite the same as in the UK for example.Unless you are Thai, you are investing in a market which is stacked against you. Which means all of the considerations that apply in any fair market apply even more in an unfair market like Thailand.John is smart. I'd think twice about 'wandering' how he has gotten through life.
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  26. Dear Friend ,Thank for your frank opinions & views but I am going to committed myself on 09/08/2017 for a resale property (10years ) in Bangkok .I hope the circumstances will change after 2-3 decades of disappointment investors has experienced .Andy
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  27. Hey! I'm looking for an investment opportunity in Phuket. I've seen some good apartments with a cheap price tag. However, after reading this alarming review and some of the comments below, i have to admit that i am a bit scared to tap into the property market in Phuket. Any suggestions? Thank you!
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  29. don't forget to add poor property management skills to the list of reasons not to buy.the same mentality that uses cheap labor in construction of the buildings is the mentality that is applied when repairing and maintaining the condo property.That nice pool that looked so good when you bought the place will be green, slimy and not operational with in a couple of years. Elevators, landscaping, water leaks, electrical wiring. Just look around at existing building and look how they are repaired.That will be your investment in a few years.
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  30. I don't agree with this (profanity removed. First warning issued)House prices in Australia are 25 five times the price and China is buying up plenty100 grand condo in Australian bucks is cheap you pay for what u getPrices will rise in Thailand as world is getting harder to survive for middle income workers in western worldSo over time people take up cheaper option so u get a class risePattaya now has Pattaya central very five star western shopping mall with Hilton hotel on topIt's the start of change so you get compition in qualityThailand is a stunning good investmentIn saying that every country have good and bad buysThat's life fools lose there money
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  31. I recently sold my condo property near Phra Khanong Bts, I lived there for more than 5 years but my initial plan was too keep it indefinitely since I'm a retiree. Why I changed my mind? The interest for the exciting Bkk life eventually faded away as the list of unpleasant aspects were growing year after year... I don't want to annoy you with the full list but I just intend to underline that as time goes by "things" happen and mood changes, so even the best planner in the world could easily find himself in trouble. To cut it short I was lucky enough to live in a strategic area for 5 years without paying any rental but using my capital that in a bank account would have yielded nearly zero interest unless opting for high risk investments. Now I'm struggling in making a decision if to buy again or rent in a quite area along the Chonburi coast. Reading your well thought analysis was very helpful but i believe you missed an important point. Sovereign debts and big banks all over the world are struggling to stay afloat, bubbles are ready to pop... who knows when a financial storm will surprise us and what the destiny of our money sitting in a bank will be.... Let's remember that bail-in regulations are already enforced in many countries around the world and i don't buy the tale of the Deposit Guarantee Schemes working in such a gloomy scenario. Houses, land, cash, gold and bitcoins are alternative safe heavens. Perhaps a wise real estate investment in first world countries would meet a safer legal environment but considering I live here in Thailand maintenance costs and taxes would be prohibitive for a so far away second home. Of course the ideal scenario for a real estate investor would be to wait until the condo bubble pops and you promptly step in with cash in your hands, but who knows if and when it'll happen... 5, 10, 15 years? So my point is it's fine to save your money avoiding expensive rentals and buying a unit in a condo in Thailand only if the answer to the following points is YES - you like the area and the view very much - the location is strategic, - the money going to be invested in a condo is not a conspicuous part of your assets - your exchange rate is not at toxic levels (for example I'd avoid at all cost converting EUR or GBP into THB right now) - the condo is quite new and the quality is acceptable, - the builder is well known and reliable, - you definitely live in it and don't have plans to rise a big family - you won't exceed 5 years of ownership so to avoid the final deterioration of the building and get your money back entirely, - there are quality locals living in it, so in the future not only farangs will be willing to buy your unit but locals too
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  32. Thanks! A great article.. However is that also true for Phuket island? We are now considering a purchase there and heard that people get a decent return o their investments and prices don't go down that much. Agents surely state that due to the lack of land construction will not be endless and prices will go up.. Not sure how real it is
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  35. Ahh. great piece and cheers for that. After frequently visiting Pattaya over 5 years and living near Pattaya for two, I have come to the realization of 80% of what you have mentioned , however the high end Bangkok hi jinks were a surprise but its "yeah , of course" moment though. The one point I want to mention is that Pattaya isn't the place it used to be, the low tourist numbers reflect this. I visit the big smoke of Patts many times a year and each time the numbers have declined, and as I sit in my Pattaya Tai hotel tonight I'm wondering how all these local people are coping with the heavy loss of numbers, I do not want to bang on too much about what I feel needs to be fixed but I will say the beach is not exactly postcard quality , and like most of the problems implementing simple plans will do wonders, eg how difficult is it to have work parties to go up and down that beach to keep it picturesque ?.Ps I realize that the Russian folk have all but gone, and the world has had a financial battering lately and that the real season is Nov-March ( Which I don't believe. The season use to be all year round busy with the Xmas period being unbearably busy) Also , its cheap as chips to fly to Utapau via KL now,However, local government and new police chief are implenting new strategies to sort things out , they need too with Laos, Vietnam and Cambodia opening up. I personally think that Pattaya has unfortunately run its course. But I wish the city and all the locals all the best.My 2 cents is,property bubble pop +tourist bubble pop = ?????
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    • Well, I see we have another Ken on here. I guess I probably should have thought to add an initial after my first name when I signed up to avoid confusion down the road.Anyway, I can’t argue the fact that Pattaya has changed considerably over the years, as do all cities. It wasn’t the same in 2000 as it was in 1990 when I first went there. And it had changed a bit more by 2010 when I was there last. Still, if I were there today I’m not sure I would think that it has necessarily changed for the worse or that it has “run its course”.Obviously it’s hard on business owners when tourism is down but the numbers pretty much always recover. If you look at the yearly tourist numbers for Thailand over the past 30 years you will notice that every now and again there is a down year but that those number always quickly recover. And although tourist numbers have supposedly been down in Pattaya in particular this past year I’m pretty sure that those numbers will also recover before long (not that I would necessarily invest there right now). Sure, the types of tourists and their nationalities will change over time but in the long haul the overall numbers should still always increase. And even WAY down the road (after I’m dead and gone) when Thailand’s economy is doing so well that there is no longer an abundant supply of cheap prostitutes, I think that there will still be plenty of tourists in Thailand, and even in Pattaya.I guess I’m just a bit less pessimistic than most expats when it comes to Pattaya, and Thailand in general. For the past 20-years I have been listening to people saying that “the party is over” in Thailand and that everything is going to hell in a hand basket. With every passing decade people just always think that the previous decade represented the “good old days” and they lament the fact that those days are gone forever. And by the way, those same people have been talking for decades about places like Laos and Vietnam possibly stealing a large percentage of the Thai tourist away but that really hasn’t happened yet.So things will always change. But as person who embraces change rather than resisting it I always adjust well to new and changing environments. Although, I guess only time will tell what I think of Thailand when I go back.As for the Beach in Pattaya I’m afraid it’s never really been what I would call post card quality. From what I have heard however I understand that the garbage problem on the beaches is a lot worse than it used to be. Although I would imagine that this is only really a problem in summer time as this is when the currents are most likely to bring all that sea trash ashore. In any case, if I ever get back there I will certainly do my part to help pick up the trash on the beaches.
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  36. Great piece, even a couple of years after it was written it's still very valid.However, I wish you devoted an entire section on the money laundering aspect of the condo business. It is so rampant in Asia and yet so few people talk about it.One interesting tidbit: If you goto Hipflat.com, and look at high-end projects like 185 Rajdamri (which currently goes for a whopping 364,680 baht per sqm asking price in the resale market), you can see that it has a total of 268 units, of which 175 are up for sale (65%) and 208 units for up for rent (77%). For a mostly empty condo that has far more sellers than buyers, resale price is still rising! Something is not right here...Don't get me wrong: 185 Rajdamri is a great condo (even by Western standard). But the sad truth is that for the most part, condos in Thailand - particularly the high end ones - is used by shady folks (Thais and non-Thais) to launder money, instead of as a place to live.In a way, you might even say that Thai Condo developers are merely a part of the of the great South East Asia money laundering machine!Things may change at some point, but until then, keep watching Bangkok condo prices go up some more to insane levels. For example, a 600,000+ baht per sqm project coming to a condo near you (like Wireless road) - and don't be surprised if the pre-sale event is done via special invitation only!)
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    • Great Article. Does anyone have any input on Chiang Mai? Havnt saw any mention on here at all. Is there a reason to avoid? Seems to be a great place with possibly a bright future for investment. I have been looking into a new condo there called S Condo which is in a good location at : 7 Sirimangkalajarn Rd. Soi. 1 Suthep Muang District, 50200''They have finished the building now but have a few rooms still available. Not sure why a place like this in this location wouldn't be sold out.Any thoughts advice wellcome.
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  38. Very impressive blog (just stumbled upon it).As a real estate investor who owns condos in Bangkok, I can relate to alot of the points made and to the comments posted. However, I think there is a big cultural difference in the way Westerners and Asians approach property investment. Westerners tend to focus only on returns (rental yield & capital gain) while alot of Asians (especially those from developing economies) think of property as a vehicle for wealth storage for the next generation. This is particularly true with Thais who have a "buy and hold forever" mentality.What is not mentioned here is the lack of alternative investment options to property. Investing in Thai equities is not really attractive (smallish capital market compared to other bigger regional bourses and not to mention pathetic corporate governance) while there is also a dearth of investment products on offer by the financial institutions here. I think this is really the key driver behind the condo boom as there is alot of pent up investment demand from wealthy Thais (especially wealthy upcountry folks who would like to own a piece of Bangkok). Historically, land has been the asset of choice for Thais to own. With the new Land and Buildings tax, many landowners have been trading in land for condos.
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    • That’s an interesting theory. And you are probably right. Still, from what I understand vacancy rates in Bangkok are already fairly high compared to cities like Los Angeles and New York (although office vacancy rates are supposedly at a 20-year low). And I wouldn’t think that a building boom could sustain itself for very long in the face of high vacancy rates no matter how badly people want to invest in real estate. I can’t really say for sure though.What I personally cannot figure out is why condos are so expensive in places like Pattaya - especially when you consider how poorly laid out, decorated, and furnished they are on average when compared to condos in Bangkok. After all, there is such a huge surplus of condos on the market in Pattaya right now that I would think we would be seeing fire sale prices but this does not seem to be the case at all. But then again, as it seems that absolutely nobody in Pattaya actually buys a condo there to live in themselves I guess the owners don’t care how long their properties sit on the market unsold because these units will always still bring in some income in the meantime. And with the growing popularity of services like Airbnb, Pattaya condo owners can reach a much broader pool of potential renters than ever before.Anyway, as someone who seems to have some knowledge of the Thai real estate market I’m curious what you think it will look like five years from now.
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      • Hi Ken,Thank you for your comments on my post.If you think the vacancy rates are high in Thailand, it's nothing compared to China (which can be explained once again about the unique Asian cultural mindset that is applied to buying property).As for your comments on Pattaya, I agree. The condo market there is a total dog and I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole. For the most part within say the past 5 to 7 years, Pattaya projects have been geared towards the foreign buyer market - namely the Russian and Chinese - and we all know what happened to the Russian Ruble a few years back that resulted in a mass forfeit of deposits on new condos by Russian buyers.Regarding your comment on the lack of fire sales, they are extremely hard to find and the oversimplified answer has to do with Thai culture and the Thai banking sector. Generally speaking, Thais would rather lose money than to lose face, so no self respecting Thai will want to exit at a steep loss in fear that others will find out about it. Deals like this can be done, but you have to be extremely sensitive in the way you handle such negotiations where the seller is Thai. As for the Thai banking sector, Thai banks enjoy one of the largest lending spreads world wide (lending rate minus savings rate), so this allows them to shore and buffer their balance sheets in the event of any loans (mortgages) turning sour. As you know, there is a weak enforcement culture / rule of law here in Thailand, so it is very time consuming and costly for the banks to chase borrowers (including both property developers and buyers) to make good on payment, so banks will simply take as much upfront as possible (loan origination charges, etc) together with imposing high interest rates on borrowers.As for the future of the real estate market five years from now, I am still bullish (there is a reason that this country is called 'Teflon Thailand'). Thais are an extremely patriotic posse who are fully invested in their country (the proportion of overseas investment by Thais is still extremely low when compared to how much they invest locally), so there will always be underlying demand from locals. Thus, if you want to play the condo market in Thailand, I'd stay away from markets like Pattaya where demand is largely driven by foreigners.
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        • Well, you are certainly right about China’s vacancy rates. But then again, I wouldn’t want to be investing in the real estate market there right now. Would you? After all, pretty much everyone agrees that the market is long overdue for a correction. The only real question is whether the bubble will completely burst, as it did in Japan in the early 90’s, or whether the correction will be more gradual.As for Bangkok real estate it might indeed be a good investment right now but I have not really researched the matter much as I don’t have a lot of surplus cash lying around at the moment. And as I mentioned in a previous post, when I retire in 5 years or so I will be buying a condo to live in rather than just purely as an investment property. The reason for this is that I will need to remodel whatever I get to suit my high-end modern tastes and I can only do this if I am the owner. I could probably find some rentals in my price range that I like in Bangkok of course but I don’t really want to live there. You see I’ve spent most of my life living on the coast here in California and so I need to be near a beach somewhere when I retire. Sure, I absolutely LOVED living in Tokyo for 5-years but I was also working at the time and I was going out to nightclubs almost every night of the week as well. As a retiree though with no job to go to everyday I just can’t see living even in Tokyo, much less Bangkok.If I were to invest in the Thai real estate market however I do agree that Bangkok would probably be a better choice than Pattaya. As far as living in Pattaya is concerned however I have to say that I don’t absolutely hate the place the way nearly everyone else seems to. In fact, I actually enjoyed living there. It wasn’t nearly as nice as living in Phuket was of course but I really liked how close it is to Bangkok. And this was important because I was dating a LOT back then and I liked the fact that girls from Bangkok could easily and cheaply come to visit me on weekends. Although, by the time I retire I might just look too old to have any chance with any of the girls that I would actually want to date, so my proximity to Bangkok might not be as important in the future.
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        • Hi I'm just starting to consider buying a condo in Udon Thani. Has anyone any thoughts or can give any advice? Would be looking to rent out if possible. My girlfriend is there looking now and seems excited by some condos called Lumpini Place? Personally I would prefer bungalow but costs seem very high in comparison.
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          • Hi Brian,Lumpini Place is a mid-end condo brand by the LPN property development group which focuses on the mass segment condo market. The developer is publically listed on the SET and has a good reputation in this market segment. The developer is also known for providing excellent after sales services (juristic management services) which is not that common since most developers prefer to focus on development (property management is an after thought due to relatively skinny margins). My wife has a unit in a Lumpini Place condo in Bangkok which is being rented out to an expat couple.As for Udon Thani, your resale market will be limited to locals who live there. There is massive condo oversupply in upcountry markets and I personally would never invest in a condo outside of Bangkok (which has the highest liquidity by far but it's still not easy to resale!).
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  39. You are absolutely right about condos not being as cheap as they seem. I did the math myself a long time ago and I realized that when I calculated the prices in terms of dollars per square foot (or meter) a condo in Phuket is actually about the same as it is here in San Luis Obispo, on the California coast. And when you factor in economic considerations they are actually much more expensive in a way. In other words that price is higher in relation to the Thai economy vs. the US economy. And naturally the condo is also much, much cheaper to build and maintain in Thailand. I realize of course that real estate prices are based solely on what people are willing to pay and have nothing to do with how much they cost to build. And with all these westerners wanting to live over there this has undoubtedly inflated prices, at least in the coastal areas.In any case, I was just wondering why every article I have ever read on buying condos in Thailand is geared towards people buying one for investment purposes or as a vacation property and not to actually live in year round. Doesn’t anyone buy condos to live in anymore? And if not, why? After all, as best as I can figure, it would cost me twice as much to rent a condo for 25 years than to buy one outright. Of course my main reason for wanting to buy is that it would be virtually impossible for me to find a reasonably priced place to rent in Phuket or Pattaya that has the layout and ultra modern interior design that I simply must have in a place (maybe in Bangkok). And even when buying I would have to completely gut and remodel anything I’m likely to find. I have seen some nice modern designs in some upcoming projects but frankly I would never buy into an unfinished property in Thialnd, as I cannot trust that the finished product will look anything like the computer animations, or that it would even get done at all. Also I can get more square footage for my money by buying something in an older building and then remodeling it myself. I just cant see the downside to buying a place to retire in rather than renting but if you can think of some cons to buying for someone in my situation please let me know as retirement is only a few years away.By the way, thanks for bringing up Faulty Towers. I had almost forgotten about that show but it used to be one of my favorites way back when. Another old favorite of mine from your side of the pond was “Yes, Minister”. Absolutely hilarious.
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    • I still love Fawlty Towers; it brings back great childhood memories. "Well may I ask what you expected to see out of a Torquay hotel bedroom window? Sydney Opera House perhaps? The Hanging Gardens of Babylon? Herds of wildebeest sweeping majestically across the plain..."I think a lot of people get hooked into buying a condo on their first couple of holidays. That excitement of an exotic land and a potentially (used to be) cheap entry level makes the possibility irresistible to many. After all, the whole "own a piece of paradise" psychology is easy to fall for after a few blissful nights out in Samui or Phuket. But like get married, only fools rush in.Buying to rent works well for those with money they need to launder, and certainly at the top end of the market black money is the driving force. I'm not sure if I mentioned this in a previous comment but a friend of mine works as an agent (Thai woman) and said the majority of buyers on their latest high-end condo block in Bangkok are Chinese men paying cash. As we know, many corrupt Chinese are having to act fast and get their money out of China since the government ramped up its anti-corruption initiative, thus the pouring of money into the BKK condo market. That said, I'm sure this is nothing new. Thailand is fairly well known as a haven for criminals from overseas looking to hide out or stash cash.For me personally, there's nowhere in Thailand where I can say I'd love to live here for the next 25 years. Okay, so you can buy and rent it out, but even at full capacity you'd have to wait 25 years for the ROI. Plus it's a hassle having tenants, especially when outside the country. The condos are way overpriced in Bangkok for the space you get, and they're getting smaller. They resemble rabbit hutches. No garden, either!On this basis, I'm out!
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      • Yeah, I still remember the episode you are quoting – what a side splitter. And nobody can pull off that kind of character quite like John Cleese. From what I understand he actually has (or had) a place in Santa Barbara, California, where I spent ten years of my life. Unfortunately I never ran into him there though. Anyway, I’m really going to have to start watching that show again.As for buying a condo, my situation is that I did not properly plan for my retirement here so now I will have no choice really but to retire in Thailand. And seeing as how I have spent most of my life living near the coast I do not want to change that now, which of course leaves out Bangkok.My first choice was Phuket but that might prove to be too expensive. My second choice was Pattaya and it has the advantage of being much closer to Bangkok and, lets face it, all the really great women are in Bangkok. When I lived in Pattaya before it was very easy to have Bangkok girls come down and visit me on the weekends. Or I could go up and visit them for our dates. And if things got serious then we could decide to relocate closer to one another. So it’s kind of the best of both worlds in a way. And for some reason I still have a real fondness for Pattaya despite the fact that I quit the bar scene long ago.You would think that I would want to live in a big city like Bangkok seeing as how the best 5 years of my life were spent in Tokyo, another huge metropolis. But for some reason I just cannot see living there when I have no job to go to everyday and when I’m not going out to clubs every night. Also I just need to be able to take a walk along the beach every evening and watch the sunset.Anyway, whichever city I choose, I just can’t see spending as much as $75,000 extra over the course of my lifetime to rent versus buying a condo outright. After all, even if I decided to move to another city at some point and had to sell, any loses from the sale would be nothing in comparison to a 75K loss. Unless I am missing something in my calculations that is. And this is why I'm always asking expats about this.
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        • Have you considered Hua Hin? Though, having been there numerous times I can see how it might get boring. The town is small and the beaches aren't great - certainly the water isn't for swimming in for much of the year, anyway.I still love Koh Samui. Phuket is great for a holiday, but Samui still retains more of that island feel, and still has some lovely spots despite heavy tourism. You also have Koh Phangnan across the way which is lovely too, but probably too quiet to live for someone used to the hustle and bustle of the city.I guess Pattaya is an obvious choice because of it's proximity to the airport; though I'm not really a fan of the Beach Road area, nor the beach - which isn't much of a beach these days. I haven't been to Jomtien though, which I've heard is nicer.
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          • Yeah, everyone I know both Thai and Westerner say that Hua Hin is very nice. And in fact, my friend and his Thai wife are thinking of moving to Thailand about the same time as me and they are considering Hua Hin as a place to live. I don’t think they realize however that a place that is nice to vacation in is not always a great place to live. I learned this lesson myself when living in Hawaii. After a while I just felt too isolated from the rest of the world and there were a variety of other things as well that made me feel like I did not want to continue living there. And just looking at a map I can tell that Hua Hin is too isolated for me.As for Pattaya, I felt pretty much the same way about it as you do the first time I went there. I also resented being stuck there at the time. You see I just wanted to get to Phuket as soon as possible but my traveling companions wanted to stay in Pattaya and they out voted me. Over the years though the place has really grown on me. Sure it doesn’t have much of a beach to speak of but I still love taking strolls along beach road every evening and watching the sunset. And for swimming and sunbathing in the afternoons Jomtien is not such a terrible beach. Also there are the small islands right off the coast of Pattaya and its always easy to get a boat to take you out there. I even know one guy who somehow negotiated an all day rate for a jet ski and him and his girlfriend used it to get to the islands and back. And of course Koh Samet is only about an hour away by car and it has some really nice beaches.As I said before though the best thing about Pattaya is its proximity to Bangkok and Bangkok women. Not only is there a much larger selection of attractive women in Bangkok but they are also more educated and have higher average IQ’s than pretty much anywhere else in the Kingdom. In some other parts of the country however average IQ’s can actually be as low as in the 80’s. And I guess if one is just into having a lot of random sex this would not be a problem but for a long term relationship to work out you really need to at least be in the same intellectual ball park as your partner.I did love living in Phuket quite a bit but condos are just too expensive in Patong and Kata and I have no desire to live in Phuket Town or even Rawai where I lived before. Also I have always been in a relationship whenever I’ve been in Phuket so I know nothing about the dating scene there. In fact I have never even sat down for a drink at a bar in Phuket. And now that I think about it, I also don’t recall coming across any women there who I found to be stunninly attractive. Or at least none that could match up to my girlfriend at the time.The bottom line is, if I were married or in a long term relationship and I had a few more bucks socked away, Phuket would be a no-brainer (or perhaps Koh Samui, although I’ve never been there). But being single again I need to be closer to Bangkok. Of course I will spend a month or so back in country before I make my final decision on which city I want to live in.
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            • Hua Hin is one solid traffic jam at the weekend.Go and check out Ao Nang in Krabi. International airport, Tesco, Makro just opened. Lot of restaurants.Downside is islam, so do not stay near the mosques and avoid the loudspeakers when renting.
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            • I was talking to my sister the other day about why it is sometimes better to rent than to buy and I realized that some of the things I was telling her I had actually neglected to consider myself when I wrote my original comments on here.I had said that it would cost me twice as much to rent versus buying over a 30-year period but this not necessarily true. The thing is I stupidly forgot to consider interest on my savings and so I was just assuming that I would use up all my savings on rent over time. But if I have $100,000 in savings and I can somehow earn 6% on it then I could actually pay all my rent with the interest alone and I would never even have to touch the principal.Of course savings account interest rates have not been 6% since 1969 when I got my first bank account as a kid. And today you are lucky to get 1% and even CD’s aren’t much better. So to get 6% would require putting your money into a much more speculative type of investment vehicle. Still it could be done. So at the end of 30 years, even though I would not own a condo, I could still have100K in the bank.Unfortunately however since I am so picky about my surroundings I will still have to by a condo so that I can remodel it to my exact specifications. And hopefully a $100K condo will be worth a lot more than 100K in 30 years. Of course, as over inflated as condo prices seem to be in the coastal areas of Thailand right now this is far from a certainty.
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  40. I think the surprising thing for buyers is that even in areas that see massive development (take the new central business district in Rama 9), the rents for surrounding buildings actually go down.A few years back I was talking with my business partner about buying a place in the area because we (rightfully) suspected that it would get a serious boost in business in years to come. The stock exchange of Thailand moved there as did several high end office buildings.The result? Rents in existing buildings have gone done at a rate of about 1-2% / year. In spite of having about as much growth as possible, the rental income actually goes down.This said, the Rachadaphisek area near the CBD Rama 9 is still one of my most favorite places ... to rent. I actually went ahead and put together an entire reference for renters (including why this area is one of the first you want to consider when moving here). Might come in useful once you decided against buying: (karstenaichholz.com/money/renting-in-bangkok)Seeing everything first hand, it's really amazing what's happening. On the one hand new developments get higher and higher rents (which were also sold for higher and higher prices), while old places continue to lose value.
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    • As a frequent traveller to Thailand i might explain that old condos age quickly. For instance in View Talay 3 in Pattaya/ Jomtien , after 10 years there has been a major pipe leak. Also new condos are built in nice place then something annoying is built nearby ( another condo , a hotel ) so the value goes down.Last point is that rich get richer and poor get poorer so depending on the market segment of the condo , cheap VS hiso , the price may be correlated to this?
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  41. Hey Richard great article. So would you agree then that renting in a condo hotel where there is a low no of hotel rooms would be the best option (instead of buying)? What is the maximum length of lease one could get in your opinion on the beach west coast of Phuket? Also what about taking pets..do you know the regulations?
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    • It depends what your plans are. If you aren't sure where you will be in 5 year's time then renting is best for sure. Very few condos allow pets, but some do. For renting, the longest lease is usually a year, the shortest usually 6 months. Buying wise i'm not sure. I think 60 years is common but someone with experience will probably correct me on that.
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    • Managed condos (apartments) are far easier to rent than private condos because you can simply walk on site, go into the office and ask reception about availability and view a room. Private condos are listed by private owners on rental sites and therefore you need to fit in with the owner for viewing times, or the rental company they are paying a management fee to. You will also need to wait for the owner's approval and action for repairs and maintenance, whereas in a managed condo they have a maintenance man on site. Many of the higher end condos are privately owned though.
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  43. Hey this article is very instructive. I wish I had read this before I made my condo purchase earlier.Just wondering if you are still keeping tabs of the condo resale market in BKK (sukhumvit area, near thong lo, in particular. I've read that the condo prop market hasn't been good since a couple years back - from the political turmoil to the recent explosion at the shrine.I'm looking to offload my prop. Would be helpful if you have any good contacts/agents that you can link me up with? Alternatively, if I can do so without an agent, it would be even better (after reading the high commission rates these agents charge). Thanks much!
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      • Oh thanks.I should have been clearer. I bought a condo near thong Lo when it was first launched, TOP is ~2-3 years later.It hasn't TOP yet, so it's more of selling (or rather changing hands) for 1st hand condo.Then again, I am having difficulty getting any interested buyer despite lowering prices n my previous agent now tell me that she's not interested to help with this deal so that she could focus on more launches.
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    • That is an option, because then your partner can lease the land to you for 30 years. But bear in mind that there have been cases of fraud where the partner has reversed the lease through a corrupt lawyer and regained control of the land. The partner is then free to take out loans against this land or sell it. Though the house is yours when the land is leased to you, when the lease is terminated or runs out, the house is just a property sitting on his/her land and can be requested for removal at any time / the tenants can be asked to leave at any time. Of course, possessions belonging to you in that house would remain yours. I'm not fear-mongering here, but it's good to be fully aware of where you stand in the worst case scenario, as well as the best :)
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  45. Thanks for the great article!I'm currently living and working in Thailand, and I'd like to know your opinion about a sublease business.What about I rent a condo and then rent it again to others? like through Airbnb or something?Wouldn't it make better profit than buying a condo?
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  46. You should also mention how agents receive anywhere upto 7% commissions for selling condos, especially in Pattaya, plus the free iPhones, cash bonus etc.. for the agents.Also how agents increase the price of the property and take the difference between the sale price and the owner or developers asking price. Sometimes it can be 1 MB or more.
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  47. Jay: Yeah, thanks for the response. I have been researching the wisdom of doing this. Your blog has been the most straight forward source. I can not afford to lose money, although I don’t see it as an investment other than a place to stay. And I would like my money back one day, if I so chose to sell. A middle class Bangkok friend gave me a lead on a building along the new BTS extension (don’t remember the stop, but past On Nut) that her co-workers are buying into. So that whet my appetite a bit since it is a friend giving me the lead. In any case, I think it is too expensive. Thanks again.
    Yes, there's certainly a trend of people with spare cash buying along the planned BTS lines; often getting a heads up on some inside info from authority figures. The thing is, those locations are getting further and further out of town and therefore less desirable rents for those working in town. That means the rents will be fairly cheap and it will take longer to make your money back on a buy-to-let. If you want to stay in BKK for the next 20 years then perhaps buying is a good idea, but then ask yourself, would you make your money back if you suddenly had to sell and return home, or would you be able to rent it hassle free, and consistently. As a side note, even on the smaller, cheaper condos, when you work out the price per square foot it often doesn't work out much cheaper (for me anyway) than a decent area back home. It's the old story I guess, if you've got the money to risk and lose perhaps 25% of it, then take the gamble.
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  48. Great article , although I'm confused with one of the points you make , 4. Is it really a great investment ? You say the demise of GBP would have cost you any profits made , however if you have transfer sterling funds into Thailand when the exchange rate was 70 ( I'm guessing that was the period you are talking about ) with the rate around 50 now , you would have made around an additional 40% profit if you had converted everything back to GBP , I would guess it has been similar stories with EUR and USD
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    • Hey Ian, you're absolutely right; it must have been a late one when I wrote that. I've amended that point. Thanks for pointing it out. At least I know someone is reading the posts in their entirety!
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      • Hey, Good stuff. Thanks for slapping me in the face with some reality. Here is my question: Does it make sense to shop for a condo in an old building that appears to have held up / aged well and been maintained or are those few and far between? And wasn't construction better in the old buildings...especially old houses that have been split up into townhouses?
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        • I don't know enough about the building in the 70s/80s/90s to answer that, so maybe someone else can comment on the quality of older buildings. That said, I've known a few people who've rented older condos in and around the Chitlom area in Bangkok, and generally in those top end areas where the condos are selling for 20-40MB, the standard of build is far greater. Renting older condos outside of the premium priced areas is so cheap though, so I can't think that it would warrant buying. I think a townhouse is always a better buy, especially if you get a front and rear garden space. But then you'd have to find a development where foreigners are allowed to own 100%. Personally, i thin the rental deals are too attractive to be getting involved with ownership.
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          • Yeah, thanks for the response. I have been researching the wisdom of doing this. Your blog has been the most straight forward source. I can not afford to lose money, although I don't see it as an investment other than a place to stay. And I would like my money back one day, if I so chose to sell. A middle class Bangkok friend gave me a lead on a building along the new BTS extension (don't remember the stop, but past On Nut) that her co-workers are buying into. So that whet my appetite a bit since it is a friend giving me the lead. In any case, I think it is too expensive. Thanks again.
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  50. Wow this really as given me some food for thought and it's put doubt's in my mind. I have basically put a deposit down on a condo within walking distance of the bts. The building itself is aprox 8 year's old. I spoke to various farang in the complex and most of them gave a good review. However reading your article as made me ponder whether i should pull out and lose the deposit rather then lose a few million. A condo in the same building costs around 12/15k bht per month to rent so it make's more sense to rent.
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    • Hi Leo. I think the key questions are:How long will it take you to make your money back, as opposed to renting month by month? Will you want to live there forever? If not, how easy will the condo be to rent at the price you need to rent it for to get your money back? How desirable will an 8-year old condo be on the rental market? If you see the condo as an investment, what return will you get, rental and profit on a sale if you sell in say 5-10 years?If you aren't fussed if you see the money again, love the area and are happy to live there for the next 20-25 years then that's cool. Similarly, if you have a fair bit of money in the bank, this condo could make a convenient city stay when you decide to move on to live elsewhere.
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      • Buying in Thailand is "up to you" ! People go to Thailand for different reasons, you know? Yes you know where I am coming from. Personally I think you are far better off renting if you are going to be there less than 10 years. SO much easier and gives you the freedom to move around the country whenever you want to! The reason is simple, - sometimes things happen in those 10 years. You can want a quieter life style or meet a Lady or whatever and your free to go and do it. Investment wise (property) your better off in the U.K , USA , OZ, Europe, etc where you know your investment return is there and your income ... so don't blow it in Thailand unless your wealthy enough to accept low returns on you money.My advice .. Is take the time to learn to speak Thai, ohhhh ... so difficult it is for me (and all farrangs) but my limited Thai has got me so much further with the genuine Thai people its incredible! The rewards of speaking the language comes back 10 fold - and then you don't get ripped of (as much).
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        • Indeed. I agree. But a lot of people get carried away and rush in, thinking; "Wow! Property is cheap here, what a great investment", without properly analysing the market and considering those next 10 years -- as you pointed out.
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