Not too long ago a forum update email dropped into my inbox from one of the major Thai forums. The leading tittle thread was regarding Sin Sod, sometimes written Sin Sot, and read “Huge Dowry Demanded After Short Relationship With Thai Woman.”
The story was of a guy that had met a 42 year old woman online, and after one month of dating was asking for 500,000 Baht marriage. While the advice given was sound, i.e. he should seriously consider his position because it smacks of extortion, a debate ensued regarding Sin Sod, the money paid to a Thai woman’s family by the groom during the marriage ceremony.
Sin Sod – A Debate of Conflict
You will find a huge amount of misleading information online regarding Sin Sod, and conflicting experiences can be found plastered all over forums and blogs. So, when a foreigner comes to marry a Thai lady and the inevitable subject of Sin Sod arises, it is no surprise that he becomes confused and desperate to know what he should be paying and why he is expected to pay it. Moreover, Thai women often don’t explain the concept of Sin Sod very well, which isn’t at all surprising considering that for them it’s just a normal tradition and an age-old part of Thai culture.
Fortunately I am lucky enough to have a cross-section of Thai friends from varying backgrounds, and being the nosey parker I am, over the last few years have endeavoured to collect as much information from my friends regarding this tradition as possible. There is no more a reliable source than Thai people themselves, and like many Thai customs, I find that foreigners have a gross misconception of what Sin Sod is all about. After reading the thread mentioned above, I decided that with the help of my Thai friends I would compile a post documenting all things Sin Sod, with the aim of helping foreigners better understand this custom.
I am not by any means saying that the information in this post is entirely definitive or historically factual, however, what I can say is that the information comes from the horses’ mouth, as it were, and the words of three of my good Thai friends. The opinion of my own girlfriend much concurs with what is said, and I have personal experience through her sister’s marriage to a Thai guy.
What Sin Sod Is Not
Firstly let’s get one thing straight: Sin Sod is not a dowry. You are not buying a woman or approaching her family to buy her. Foreigners have a habit of instantly taking the negative viewpoint that Sin Sod equates to dowry and the purchasing of a Thai bride. It really isn’t, and should be considered as more of an expected gift. To fully understand the tradition you need to put the word “dowry” out of your mind, not least because any suggestion of purchasing their daughter will be very offensive to your Thai girlfriend’s family.
What Is Sin Sod?
There are generally three reasons for the payment of Sin Sod; they are as follows:
1. Traditionally, the eldest unmarried daughter takes care of her parents until she gets married, and therefore the Sin Sod in some respects replaces that income for the parents. As you might know, it is common for an average woman to send a portion of her salary to her parents each month. After marriage this will stop, so as you can imagine, for parents with no pension plan and little savings, the Sin Sod is a much needed payday. Now you can see why richer families don’t usually accept this payment or expect it, quite simply because they don’t need it.
2. The structure of Thai society makes it very hard for a Thai woman to find a man of decent stature once she has been married with kids, and therefore the Sin Sod acts as an insurance for the woman should the man desert her, perhaps leaving her with kids. Women don’t walk away with half of everything like they do in Europe. If a woman finds herself back at home as a single mother there will be some money/land/investment in the family to support mother, child and family. Thai society also dictates that the older a Thai woman gets the harder it becomes for her to find a job, let alone a well-paid one. So again, should she find herself alone in the future at least the family will have some money put by for some inevitably rainy years.
3. Where poorer families are concerned Sin Sod is a repayment for the money invested in their daughter. Many families sell land, borrow money and generally go without to put their kids through university or to simply put food on the table; the Sin Sod is essentially a repayment for that investment. The amount paid for Sin Sod could be considered relative to that investment.
Who Pays Sin Sod?
Any man marrying a Thai woman is expected to pay Sin Sod. The price is usually agreed between the two families, yet where a foreigner is concerned he will be expected to ask the family how much they are expecting.
Who Doesn’t Pay Sin Sod?
In the modern day many families don’t expect Sin Sod and many will tell the boyfriend that they don’t want any money. However, it is rare that money isn’t shown at the wedding, albeit that it is fully returned afterwards.
*It should be noted that to expect the money back or to ask for it back is unacceptable. One will be offered it back if that is to be the case.
*Also note that you may not be required to pay Sin Sod if the woman you are marrying has been married before. See the section below for more details.
How Much Should I Be Paying For Sin Sod?
This depends on six factors, as listed and discussed below:
- Family Name
- Education
- Prior Marital Status
- Dependants
- Job
- Age
1. If your girlfriend is from a well-to-do family you could be looking at a fair lump, however, in this situation the money will most likely be for show and be returned after the wedding.
2. If a woman is university educated or beyond then you will be looking at 200,000 Baht +. This is a low-moderate amount by modern day Thai standards. For example, a friend at my girlfriend’s work is soon to marry a Thai lady who finished her education at high school level; he is paying 200,000 Baht. His salary is probably about 25,000 per month.
3. If your girlfriend has been married before then you will definitely pay less. You might argue that you shouldn’t be paying at all. However, as a respectful gesture and to show your respect you should offer something. Remember that marriage is intended to happen once in Thai culture, and therefore the emphasis is on marrying for the first time in Thailand. Unlike second and third marriages in the west, which may be seen as equally as important and “true love” matches, in Thailand they are not that much of a big deal.
4. If your girlfriend has kids then you will definitely pay less. This stems from the age-old thinking that she is tainted in some way, already given to another man if you like. You will become responsible for another man’s seed, and for that you shouldn’t be paying for the privilege. (Not my words I might add)
5. Job wise it’s as simple as this: banker gets more cleaner gets less. This correlates with education and earnings.
My Girlfriend Is Asking For Too Much
Many foreigners find themselves in this position, and it isn’t necessarily that your girlfriend is trying to con you, although it might well be a little deceitful. What she is trying to do is secure face for her family. To marry a foreigner with a Sin Sod of less than 200,000 Baht would be quite a loss of face, not just for her but also for you.
The fact that she is marrying a foreigner will mean tongues wagging in the village, so when you say, “What! No way, I am not paying to marry you”, or you announce a payment less than what an average Thai guy earning 10-15k a month would pay, you get branded a “Farang kee-nock” (literally translated as bird shit foreigner, but refers to a poor lower class foreigner), or “Keniiow” (stingy). The folks in the village will have a good laugh, “Why is she marrying a foreigner when he can’t afford to pay anymore than one of us folk”. Yes, unfortunately most Thais believe, as most westerners do, that Thai women only marry foreigners for financial security, unless of course the Thai woman is richer or as wealthy as the foreigner.
Anyway. Don’t take your girlfriend’s word for it is the point here, because the tradition is that you are supposed to ask the mother and father the amount they want for Sin Sod. It is not for the woman to tell the man what she wants. So as a foreigner approach the parents and ask politely in Thai. They will probably say one of two things:
1. “Oh no, mai pen rai, we don’t want anything”.
2. “It’s up to you”.
The first answer doesn’t mean you say, “Okay, great”, and go and buy a new car. By answering in this way they are exercising their “grengjai”. They are being polite. What they actually mean is, “Tell us what you WANT to pay, and you will be able to tell by our behaviour whether we think it’s okay or not”. So basically you need to make out you really want to pay. As you can see, this all falls in nicely with Thai style.
The second answer means, “What do you want to pay… but don’t insult me”!
*It should be noted that some families might genuinely want nothing at all.
I Hate This Talk Of Money – It All Seems So Shallow
Yes, and for the most part, particularly in the village, it is. Sin Sod is largely about face. “Look at my daughter, she went to university and married a good man with a good job”. Or even, “Look at my daughter, she didn’t go to university but she is so beautiful and hardworking that she married a lovely rich foreign guy”.
As a foreigner you may feel like you are buying your girlfriend and a victim of the old “Thailand ATM” syndrome, and depending on the circumstances that could be the case. But in a loving relationship you need to consider your girlfriend and the culture, and yes, she too needs to consider your wallet. Like it or not Sin Sod is a big part of Thai culture, and, as soon as a Thai woman announces marriage, the big question on everyone’s lips is, “Is he paying Sin Sod and how much“. Why? Because Sin Sod is a reflection of her, you, her family and your family. A Thai woman lives to make her family proud, to show the other villagers that they are a good family, that they are to be respected, and that they are on the up, as it were.
But I Am Compromising My Western Marriage Traditions!
I hear you. For example I come from a culture where the woman’s father is supposed to pay all. It’s more a 50-50 thing in the modern day. But think about it like this. Your girlfriend has probably already sacrificed many of her cultural traditions to accommodate you in her life. Living with you and sleeping with you before marriage are two of those things. Without you knowing it she will have been the talk of her village for living with you without being married – this reflects badly on her family. Don’t forget either that you chose her as your girlfriend, and with all due respect, before getting involved with a woman from another culture you really should understand the culture first.
On an emotional level you need to consider that just like every Western girl dreams of a white wedding to make her Daddy proud, the majority of Thai women grow up dreaming of marrying in their home town and making their parents proud with a respectable Sin Sod, and of course elevating the family face.
The way I see it is; an average wedding in the UK costs 20k, so if you pay 4-6k to marry your Thai girlfriend in a village ceremony that costs no more than 1-2k, you are still quids in with about 12k! That said, in the UK you get gifts and dosh from your girlfriend’s family, so that offsets some of the cost. Truth is, you aren’t likely to get a bean here unless you marry into a wealthy family, but then setting up home here is cheaper, as is taking care of a woman post-marriage.
Feel free to pitch in with your experience. It would be really useful to know what married guys paid or didn’t pay and how the affair was handled.
I would like to say a big thanks to Marisa, Noynar and Noi for contributing their cultural knowledge and helping me write this piece.
Hi TTL,
I’m glad this topic has come up. I am already legally married, but have yet to do the village ceremony in Isaan. With this approaching on my next visit I have talked about this a lot with my wife because it was becoming a concern to me. Not because I feel like I shouldn’t have to pay….but with the expense of my wife’s UK settlement visa application which we are submitting at the same time, I simply don’t have the money.
However, I needn’t have worried. My wife knew that it’s just not possible for us to pay the Sin Sod, so she spoke with her mother and came to an “arrangement”.
Going back to what was said above (“Sin Sod is largely about face”) the only concern my wife had was about the community in her home town looking down on her family. So after explaining the situation to my wife’s mother it was decided that we will have a “show” sin sod. Basically we will make a show of offering the money, which in our case was decided at 50,000baht. We will then be given back the money, which we will use to pay for the visa application. I will also probably give a small amount to my wife’s mother behind closed doors anyway, whatever we can afford, just as a gesture.
I was concerned that by offering nothing I would be perceived as a “cheap charlie” and so we also made it clear to the family that when we return to Thailand in the future, after maybe a year or two when funds have recovered we will then either pay the Sin Sod or do something to help the family, even if its not accepted.
I know another guy that was in a similar situation. He too explained this to the family at the time and the Sin Sod was set at only 10,000baht.
I think a lot of guys when they hear the mention of Sin Sod panic and automatically think the family will ask for huge sums of cash, which I’m sure some families do. But I think these days it’s a lot more flexible.
Personally I think if you marry into that culture then you should expect to pay at least something. Again it’s just a shame that those not “in the know” have this idea that by paying the Sin Sod you are “buying” your wife. Grrrrr!!
Steve
Steve(Quote)
I think you are right Steve, from what my girlfriend says it seems to more about showing than giving…i.e. mai pen rai if you don’t have a lot of money, but can we just show something respectable for my family’s sake. I don’t buy into the notion that thai families are money grabbing and trying to squeeze as much out of a farang as possible. What i think happens is a breakdown in communication. The foreigner misunderstands Sin Sod, then argues with his GF who takes offense, of course defending her culture and family. Like you have done the best thing i believe is to be upfront, communicate and lay your cards down on the table, compromise and come up with a solution that works for you both, after all, isn’t this what marriage is about..?
I think it’s also important to make sure the money isn’t mismanaged, after all, the family should respect your gift. So perhaps put the money in a high interest account of buy some land.
TheThailandLife(Quote)
You make a good point about how the money is managed. This was a concern of my wife and another reason for us deciding not to giving a large sum in one payment. I think its fair to say that most families in Isaan are not used to handling larger sums of cash and my wife’s mother is elderly. My wife was scared that her mother would either a) blow all the money herself or b) those around her may take advantage for their own gain.
When the time comes for us, to avoid such things happening my wife has talked about maybe using the money to improve her mothers home or something like that rather than giving hard cash for others to sponge off.
Steve
Steve(Quote)
Your wife sounds very level-headed, and good with money, which is a great thing to have in a wife. Wise talk though, elderly people are always at risk of being taking advantage of by people in the local community; happens in the UK and lots of other places every day.
TheThailandLife(Quote)
“Your wife sounds very level-headed, and good with money”
but I guess she’s better than most.
Well it doesn’t seem that way when it comes to her own money…..a lot of which seems to vanish on the lottery when she has her “lucky” dreams
“elderly people are always at risk of being taking advantage of”
Also sad but true. As much as we like to think that the majority of the Thai people are genuine people, especially in the north east, there are still a lot that would take advantage of the vulnerable….especially when they know a farang is involved. We are after all walking ATM’s in many a thai’s eyes right?
Cheers
Steve
Steve(Quote)
Lol…I will be honest, I’ve had worse experiences of “walking ATM” in the South than the North East….didn’t feel too welcome down there, but found the North East to be generous where they could afford to be. STILL, I hate to generalise, there are good and bad everywhere….:)
TheThailandLife(Quote)
Thanks for the post, there is a lot of misconceptions of the Sin Sod. I can’t say that I really understood it before. Thanks for the insight.
Lawrence Michaels(Quote)
Okay maybe we are not the norm but the wife and I basically eloped and told people after we were already married. We did have a small dinner party for a select group of my wife’s girlfriends in Bangkok, but that was it. We were together for two years before we decided to get married and have been happily married for twelve years now. I am not suggesting anyone else should try and follow our example. It is just anecdotal evidence that there are exceptions to every rule.
V F(Quote)
Sounds good to me VF
no Sin Sod then? Where did you marry, Thailand or outside?
TheThailandLife(Quote)
We simply went to our local amphur in Bangkok to do the paperwork. No Sin Sod. We also broke the big housewarming party rule when our house was finished in the village. No big confrontation, we just kept putting it off until people finally stopped asking when we were having the party. We are not big on the over the top village parties. Figure they already have enough excuses to get drunk.
VF(Quote)
Upon first reading your post I was tempted to respond along the lines of, “you have no idea WTF you are talking about you cant even get the basics right”, after asking my wife to read your post we had a laugh together and thought better to answer you as you request, with our own personal experience.
A few things need to be set straight as your post is way of the mark factually, a dowry has and never will be paid by a groom, it is paid by the bride, and or her family. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dowry
A “Dower”, is “paid” to the bride after the wedding, nornally after the marraige has been consummated. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brideprice
Sin sodt is a “Bride Price”, paid to the bride, and or her family, by the grooms or his family prior to or during the wedding. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brideprice
Now our experience… (long but puts it all in perspective).
I am in my mid 40′s was raised in Far Nth Australia and throught Asia and have lived and worked in Malaysia, Singapore, HK and Thailand on and off for over 30 years, I am financially “independant” having been part of the “dot com” boom in HK and Australia in the 90′s and having worked since as a software developer in the banking and real estate sectors.
My wife is from a small village an hour or so outside Nong Khai, she left home at 17 to work in Bangkok as a nanny for a wealthy family, at 18 she left to work at a large multinational company, Interpac LLC, on the outskirts of Bangkok, earning an average of 6000 Baht a month. She put herself through college and obtained under graduate qualifications through night school, she had never married having only taken her only boyfriend when in her late 20′s and rigourously sent money home for her parents and family, in her late 20′s she was “ripped off” by a Bangkok doctor after being told she needed nasal surgery after suffering health problems at work. Being broke and in her late 20′s she was easily drawn to Phuket by friends with the promise she would make “big” money at a salon massaging farangs.
I met my wife whilst seated at a friends bar in Patong, Phuket, she arrived on the back of a scooter carry a huge bag, watching her walk into one of the massage “salons” oppsoite the bar I joked with my mate about “another lamb to the slaughter”. An hour or so later the then unknown lady came out from the salon followed by the salon mamasan and a “heated” discussion errupted outside the salon, with the discussion heating up and seeing the new lady start to break down in tears I asked one of the girl from the bar to “sort it out”. It turned out that my future wife had taken 5000 baht for her family and a bus ticket to Phuket truly believing she would be working in a “real” salon and was in shock and distressed to find out what was now expected of her.
Now to cut a long story short, after seeing how beautiful my wife was, and the sadness in her eye I made what has truned out to be the best desicion of my life, I paid “out” the debt to the mamasan, pretty much put 100,000 baht cash in the hands of an unknown lady and said I would be back in a few weeks, in the meantime she would stay at my friends hotel and work with his wife.
10 months and 13 trips to Thailand for me, 10 months of English language classes for my wife later we got married in her village, in total I paid 2.3 million baht sin sodt; 250,000 to upgrade her families house before the wedding, 150,000 for 10 baht of gold, 80,000 for the wedding which included transport for her extended family, 150,000 split between 2 sisters and her brother and 420,000 I paid to Kasikorn bank without my wifes knowledge, the balance was for her parents, to be administered by a local accountant. All of this was my “offer” and only discussed with my wife, she had jokingly asked for 500,000 baht one day saying she wanted to pay of her family farming loan at Kasikorn bank, her parents only asked that I pay for the wedding and possibly a new motorbike. The wedding was a highlight of my life to date, everything I could have never expected and even to this day brings a tear to my eye when I think back.
Am I a fool, in my opinion no, I have had girlfriends from throught Asia most of my life from all “levels” of society and nearly all my friends are in cross cultural marraiges, to me what I paid was proportional to my income and only a small proportion of what I “would” have paid for the same size wedding in Australia or the UK. I have now been married nearly 4 years and am happier than I have ever been in my life.
In my opinion to discuss Sin Sodt as if it is something that can be defined and “documented” like a financial settlement or contract shows a lack of knowledge, cultural understanding and financial insecurity, as with all relationships if you are only discussing finances when you are about to get married and your partner does not already understand you personal financial position and beliefs then you are in the wrong relationship!
Lloyd(Quote)
Hi Lloyd, as I stated at the start of the post, this information is based on the input of three of my Thai friends, and my experience of my GFs family – her sister marrying a Thai guy. As i also said, i do not in any way claim that it is factually or historically correct. Also, if you read my post, I said that the Sin Sod should not be considered a dowry, and my definition does mirror that of the wiki definition you have provided.
Anyway, thank you for your input though and welcome to TTL. That’s one hell of a story you have there, and certainly takes the prize for the biggest Sin Sod I’ve ever heard of, bar of course the Thai superstars. I am wondering if you wouldn’t mind putting that story into an extended post for publishing on here…let me know.
TheThailandLife(Quote)
TTL, and Steve, my apolgies, you are correct having reread your post on my laptop at home I can see my mistake, having read into your post previously using an RSS reader on a mobile phone I did not get the clear headings and mistakenly merged the paragraphs, the rest said I stand by my opinion on Sin Sodt.
Thank you for the offer of the guest post however I will politely decline. Several years ago I blogged about my new relationship under the title “A new path to follow” and enjoyed a good follow, the site “introduced” me to the likes of “Village Farang” and many others more “knowledgable” about Thai/Farang relationships than I. As much as I enjoyed writing I found that for better or worse I occassionally used the blog, and comments, to vent my own feeling and anger during a part of my life where all was not as it should have been. Thankfully that part of my cross cultural learning curve has now been resolved and we lived to see another day together.
Lloyd(Quote)
Lloyd,
In defence of TTL’s post the dowry is mentioned under the heading “What Sin Sod Is Not”. As you and your wife found the post such a “laugh” it would be interesting to understand exactly what your definition of the Sin Sod is other than quoting from wikipedia?? Your own personal take on it?
Cheers
Steve
Steve(Quote)
Steve, to me Sin Sodt is different for every couple and family, it should not be viewed as an onbligation nor as something to simply be waved aside as a cultural annoyance, not relevant or warranted in modern day relationships. It is not a tangible matter as simple as paying for a beer yet it is neither complicated or unjust, what it is however is deeply emotional and can manifest itself in a physical way if beliefs, hearts and “face” are not taken into consideration.
If I was to romanticse about Sin Sodt I would have to say it can bridge social and physical devides, it can show kindness and acceptance and allow families to bridge social and cultural devides for the future of those involved.
If it is about money then there is a fundamental problem in the relationship at that point in time.
Do not take offence at my wife and I having “laughed” at such a matter, had I thought TTL was a fool or another ignorant farang I would not have taken the time, and been honest, to have replied as I did. My wife and I, like you and your wife will find out, tend to read blogs like your own and TTL’s and look back and laugh at ourselves first, as you will see in time it is certainly an entertaining journey
Lloyd(Quote)
Jason,
You sir are an ATM. You got jipped on the Sin Sod but I guess marriage is a great thing that you can’t put a price tag on.
Best wishes to you and your Lady.
Jason(Quote)
@ Jason, who are you referring to?
TheThailandLife(Quote)
I have no experience with this and have only this post and a bangkok podcast to reference. A story was retold in the podcast that made me laugh, one couple who were getting married wanted to make a big show of the Sin Sod at the ceremony so photoshopped a huge check with 1 million Baht written on it with no intention of actually giving that much. Brilliant idea, something I’ll never forget and will someday try!
I think like most traditions, it can change from family to family, like the post clearly explains. I’d be surprised if many family’s accept the definition of Sin Sod the same.
From Colin, single guy living in Bristol with no experience of Thai girls or marriage.
colin(Quote)
Lol, awesome idea Colin…I might just borrow that one 1 day – like one of those big cheques they show on the TV for comic relief
TheThailandLife(Quote)
A very good and well written piece .
We got married in Bangkok but then a few days later went to the village for the blessing etc.I know my wife would have liked to have the full big party with the nice dress etc but i told her if she wanted that it would have to come off the sinsot and I know her parents would make better use of the cash,this they did and along with some other cash I sent they were able to build a new bungalow.
I would say though that as far as once married then the daughter is no longer expected to send money home I think you got it wrong .
My wife and I have been married nearly 6 years and I was asked for 100,000 baht sinsot which nowadays is around 2000GBP but back then was around 1500GBP.I was more than happy to pay it although at first my wife got it wrong and put an extra 0 on it making it a million by mistake, I said there was no way , this caused floods of tears and a heap of grief for me till I sat her down and asked her to re write the amount.
Since getting married my wife’s mother still pressures (or emotionally blackmails) her into sending home money as no other family member helps out. Over the last year or so she has not asked so much as she knows that we have been financially struggling here in the UK . I know she expects but doesn’t seem to ask as much as she knows that if we have money then we always treat the family to a day out or a nice meal but over the last 2 years we have had less money with us than on our trips in the boom years of 2004 to 2008.
I am actually proud of the help I have given over the years as it meant that for the last 4 years of his life my father in law lived in relative comfort thanks to the sinsot and other financial help I gave . I would like to think that should I ever need the support of my in laws that it will be there ( not financial, but spiritual and emotional).
chock dee
mick j88(Quote)
Thanks for your comment Mick. I think you’re probably right about sending money home and supporting, although I was told by friends this was “the concept”. I wonder though if more pressure to help out is put on women with foreign boyfriends. For example, there doesn’t seem to be any pressure put on my GF’s sister’s husband to help out, although he doesn’t earn much to be fair. I think helping out is fine as long as you only give what you can afford and don’t put yourself under stress. Once you marry into a family you become part of that family, and as you highlighted, whether financial or emotional it is important to be there for each other – it’s the same in most cultures I’m sure. However, where money is concerned the family must understand that when things are tight help isn’t always possible. I think it is also important to see that any Sin Sod or money given post that is used in a responsible way. In my eyes this is a symbol of respect for the person that gave it to you.
TheThailandLife(Quote)
Hi, I am having relationship with my Thai girlfriend for 5 years. Recently this issue has come across our relationship.I am not a rich guy, salary is 35k baht per month. My girlfriend’s parent ask about 1mil cash and 20baht gold for the bride price. I am wondering is this price common for a rich family and university educated girl?
Reesion_ro(Quote)
Contrary to what many foreigners believe, this isn’t uncommon. A thai friend of a friend got married to a another thai earlier this year and the Sin Sod was 2 mil baht; not sure what the gold amount was. These were indeed two people from wealthy families.
Consider this; If a lower class girl who didn’t finish school marries for around the 150,000- 200,000 baht mark, then a rich family with a lot of respect aren’t going to let their daughter be insulted with a small Sin Sod, especially marrying a foreigner. However, because your gfs family are wealthy they will probably give the money back to you because they don’t need it. This is common practice because the Sin Sod is a lot about face and showing that “our daughter is worth this because she is respectable and educated”. As I mentioned in the article, my friend’s sister married and her family gave the 200,000 back to the couple to invest in a property.
Thais generally marry their equals, this is the culture. Thais joke about foreigners marrying uneducated country girls; one of the main reasons being, why would someone with money want to marry someone so poor and then have to dilute his wealth? I guess the lady in question being a beautiful person isn’t enough of a reason for well-off thais.
All this said and done, your culture needs to be considered here, too, and so does your financial position. I very much doubt they will keep the money so be sure to ask if it is just for show. But if you don’t have the money to show then you don’t have it. I don’t know what 20baht gold costs but it sounds a lot. Personally, if i was you and I had the 1 mil baht, i’d show the money to support the family face, but I certainly wouldn’t be giving it away. They don’t need it. if the family was poor you could easily save on the wedding by having it in thailand and giving say 100,000-250,000 as a gift or to buy some land, but come on 1m and the gold….the average foreigner doesn’t have 1 mil baht savings let alone paying for the gold.
Work out what you can afford and let them know that is where you are at. If they like you for who you are and want you to marry their daughter for love this shouldn’t be a problem….and, if they have bags of money, they can just front the money for you and say to guests you put it down
simple.
TheThailandLife(Quote)
Having just returned from two weddings in Thailand, Thai/Thai and Thai/English, I’ll put in my 2 bahts worth…
Most “wealthy” Thais are not likely to ask for cash or gold, the point here is to stress the real wealth of the family, not the perceived or somewhat visible wealth as this is where the issues will arrise. I dont know anybody who is financially independant that enjoys “flashing” money around, it does not give face to those in the same “class” or financial position, arguably exactly the opposite. That is not the same as putting on a “show” for a traditional wedding but for most modern independantly wealthy Thai families the showing of the Sin Sodt no longer happens as it once did.
The Thai/Thai wedding my wife and I attended was between the daughter of one of the founding investors/directors of Sanook.com, a family with considerable real wealth whom had educated all their children at foreign schools and are well known in Bangkoks “social” scene. The groom was Thai whose family was consirably less “well off” financially, however the father and mother have high standings in the business world, the father is the principal auditor for Boonrawn Ltd (Singha beer) and a board member on two companies under the royal household. The groom was educated at Aberysthwaythe Uni in Wales and works as a software developer for Kasikorn Bank, earning around 30,000 baht per month.
In this case it was all about equality as the two family were both gaining equal “status” from the wedding, the Sin Sodt was 200,000 which was donated to the flood relief appeal, the brides wedding ring and jewelry were presents from the grooms family and were probably in the million baht range. The wdding was paid for by the brides family and was a mix of traditional Thai/Chinese and a “modern” wedding, the bride and groom paid for their own honeymoon and gifts for the bridal party etc.
The “price” for sin sodt does not work like a car, the better the “spec” and “manufaturer” the more you pay, its normally the exact opposite, poor families will seek more as they “need” the money, its is expected and the daughter would normally have been expected to “aim high” and marry above her own families “status”. Wealthier familes normally seeks “status” from a wedding to ask for money and gold is seen as somewhat “crass”.
If my wifes family had made out they were “wealthy” and asked for 1 million baht and 20 baht of gold I’d have wondered why, it shows a lack of respect for the future groom as how can anyone earning 35,000 baht per month be expected to borrow 2 1/2 years earnings to get married!
Lloyd(Quote)
Lloyd, thanks for sharing that experience. I think this goes to show that there can be no generalising on this matter. Like most things it is down to the preference of the families involved. It makes perfect sense though that a poor family will ask for more than is appropriate because they need it and because they want to elevate their status in front of the neighbours. A wealthy family with status doesn’t need the money and doesn’t need to prove anything. However, there are those rich people who will take the opportunity to show off their wealthy status to others.
TheThailandLife(Quote)
Thank you very much for the sharing. It start making sense to me now. Guess I have to gain some respect from her parents…
Reesion_ro(Quote)
Hi people, nice blog.
By chance stumbeled upon this page while at work.
I never write online so this feels little ackward and bear in mind that im not an native english user. Dont have much to say but i put it in anyway for others comparison.
I’m a norwegian and will be married to a thai woman this december in Thailand. Im 31 and she is 34. She graduated bachelor because the family could not afford a master and she needed to support them. She have been working as a guvernmental nurse in Lat Yao high security prison in bkk for the last 10 years. We met online 3-4 years ago and as the time went by she was the one that seemed to be on my wavelenght. She is the youngest daughter in 7 brothers and sisters. Never married and most probably even a virign. As a child she went to the temple with her grandmother before school and sat there for about 4 hours every day. Family is from UT province. Anyway, we decided after we met october last year that we wanted to marry each other. At the time we met online I did not even have a job but to be able to provide visa a stable income is a must says the guvernemt, so I got a job. She never cared about money or superficial things, a devoted Buddhist as she is. I thought i was engaged in Thailand, thai culture and my wife but when we started to plan the wedding 2-3 months ago sin sod came up which I was not very familiar with. She always said she wanted a small and humble wedding, not a village wedding. Then suddenly it escalated into a full village wedding (1000-1500 people) and a sin sod at 250.000. No gold required. She told me it was her fathers wish. I did not expect anything like this with the sin sod and everything and I did not really have any money saved for that, so it became a big downer for me. I started to read about it and found out it was of big importance for the family and the face thing so I really wanted to go trough with it and now I see it as a disgrace that some refuse to pay anything and relating it directly to dowry as its a strong part of thai culture. Both parents are alive and even most grandparents (around the age og 100 and more all of them actually). Without much detail I know they own some land and the father have rice, fish, bull, buffalo and others on the land. Not really sure what value all this can be at and what social standings the family actually have. I dont know if the sin sod will be returned or what it will be used for if they choose to keep it. Have never met them personally. I trust the woman 100% and im really looking forward to the weddign comming around the corner. Bought proposal and wedding rings with 0.5 ct center stone and a 2.6 ct total + 2 first class tickets to anywhere, anytime. Shes worth that at least ^_^
Sorry for messy writing.
Lioneight(Quote)
Hi Lioneight, thank you for sharing your story. I am not an expert on Sin Sod by any means; I can only go by what Thai people tell me and the stories of other foreigners, and from the comments of others below it would seem there are many variables to this tradition. I hate the thought of putting a price on people, but considering yourgf has not been married – i also presume she has no kids – and she is a graduate, I would say 250,000 would be expected whether she married a Thai or a farang. Whether we like it or not, this is part of thai culture, and it all depends on the family as to how they value this tradition, and I guess how much they need the money. Still, you would pay that money just to hire a venue in Norway, I am sure, so if it helps her family out and makes her proud on her special day then I think it is money well spent. I wish you both all the happiness in the world.
TheThailandLife(Quote)
My girlfriend her family ask about 20000 euro and 20 baht of gold for sin sod.
Where is the edge of trust and reality?
frank(Quote)
Do you mean 200,000 Euros? 20,000 would be very reasonable
20 Baht of gold…well, depends how wealthy you are I guess, but seems like a big demand. The more I talk to Thais on this the more it seems to based on “status”. I have good thai friend of 3 years now, and the other day I asked her what her parents would expect for her, she said, “Not less than 1m Baht”. She does own 2 businesses though, has no children, and has only had one boyfriend (her current one). That said, her parents gave back the sin sod for her sister’s marriage, previously, and are likely to do the same for her. So this means the 1m Baht is just to show others the worth of their daughter, and the fact that she is successful and not likely to marry any old Tom, Dick or Harry!
TheThailandLife(Quote)
I am headed back to Thailand tomorrow for an extended holiday and another two weddings towards the end of the year, both are Thai female and foreign male. One couple are very wealthy, European multi millionaire, the other couple are steady “middle class”, neither party is paying Sin Sodt, there will be no show off money other than that spent on the wedding functions themselves.
I don’t see how the number of businesses or boyfriends plays into the equation, from all the Thais I know status is not simply viewed on shallow assumptions of what someone might earn, or have done, its is somewhat deeper than that.
Lloyd(Quote)
I was just highlighting her status; I am unsure as to whether this aspect plays a role or not. “from all the Thais I know status is not simply viewed on shallow assumptions of what someone might earn, or have done, its is somewhat deeper than that.” That is encouraging to hear, but is highly contradictory to what I hear and what I read. Only last night I was reading about the class structure engineering through the 1800s, and how little has changed since. People here are hugely divided by heritage, wealth, education, job status, etc. I have one friend who isn’t poor but certainly not middle class, yet takes every opportunity to distinguish herself from “those people”. My perception here is that birds of a feather flock together here far more so than in Europe, where friendship groups are far more diverse and less judgemental. But, as I always say, maybe I have encountered the wrong thais, and of course, not everyone is in favour of elitism.
TheThailandLife(Quote)
The thing everyone here needs to realize is that you are not thai. I repeat, “YOU ARE NOT THAI” As a foreigner, you are not bound by thai cultural rules. Thais seem to think that their culture is the only culture that matters in ALL things, including FOOD for crying out loud. They give zero consideration when it comes to what american culture dictates the couple should do. Moreover, if you think you will simply pay a sin sodt or how ever you want to spell it and be done financially, you had better think again, then yet again. You will pay until the day you die. I have had, not just dates, but exactly four relationships with thai girls and not only refused to discuss sin sodt but also refused to discuss marriage in general. If and this is considered a never say never type example, if I did ever loose my mind and agree to marry, the things I would consider is this; (1) Is she a virgin – takes care of the never been married and no kids thing? If not, I am not marrying her, Period! (2) Is she a masters level college graduate or working towards a masters? If not, I am not marrying her, Period!….She is a burden to me as her earning power is NIL. Plus, I would need someone who is actually capable of holding an intelligent or at least a semi-intelligent conversation. (3) Is her parents fully capable of caring for themselves? If not, I am not marrying her, Period! If the above three conditions are there, then I will happily drop 5 mil sin sodt, Its not going to hurt me one bit, and I don’t give a $hit about getting it back. I will not have to worry about the family hounding me day and night about a freakin’ dead buffalo or two or three.
Tim(Quote)
I think one thing you have glossed over here is that the richer the Thai girl you marry the more likely a financial burden she will be. “Keeping up appearances” costs a lot more the higher you scale the wall and, being the man, in Thai culture, you pay for stuff, no matter how wealthy she is or her family are. It is the same in many cultures, Greek and Iranian being two I have experienced. Anyway, aside from that, no, I am not Thai, and I don’t try to be, but I appreciate that some things are an integral/important part of the culture, and out of respect for my gf/wife, try to accomodate the aspects of the culture which are important to her. Similarly, there are things my GF will and has already had to adjust to/sacrifice due to my culture; for both of us, however, these are minor issues to work around because we have a great life together filled with love and laughter. Embarking on a life partnership will always involve compromise and diplomacy in a large number of areas, whether you are from the same culture or not and, if you ever let money become a deciding factor in who you choose to marry, then you have epically failed at life, in my opinion.
TheThailandLife(Quote)
“american culture” nows theres an oxymoron if I ever read one, is there really any such thing?
Tim I can hardly imagine you will ever be in such a position to have to worry about being asked for 5 million baht as I can not imagine there is any Thai lady with any self worth that would be seen in your company for long enough for the question of sin sodt to arrise
Lloyd(Quote)
Generally I don’t read blogs, but I wanted to say that this was a compelling article. Your writing style is fantastic. Thank you, quite nice post.
BKKHustler(Quote)
I have enjoyed your blog and find it clear and informative.
I am currently involved, on the net, with a beautiful Thai girl. We hope to marry and she is an old fashioned, mainstream, girl. I do not see what the problem is with sin sod as no matter what the culture the men pay. In USA the cultural capital of ……………. I will get back to that one, the man loses the home and everything in a divorce. In all western cultures Dowry was an integral part of marriage, of course the parents had to give it to the groom as women were of no value. In recent times the brides parents were expected to pay for the wedding etc. So what is to understand in sin sod ? it is the Thai way based on old traditions. So dont try to understand it just do it if you love the girl.
Geoff
Geoff(Quote)
I agree Geoff. Pointless to moan about it, if you choose to marry a Thai woman you have to accept the culture. However, one should always be aware of the full tradition, and that means using the correct procedure of evaluation to make sure you aren’t simply being squeezed as a cash cow. That said, many families only expect money to be shown and given back to the groom after the ceremony. Some families don’t even appropriate this tradition anymore. I think one fact is certain, the poorer the family the less likely they are to return the money because they need it more. Another aspect to consider is that many families sell land and work themselves to the bone to pay for their daughter’s education, and therefore, with no state pension to look forward to, when their daughter marries, they expect a return on their investment.
Pay what you can afford to pay. Whatever you do don’t put yourself in financial trouble to get married, as so many people do the world over.
TheThailandLife(Quote)
Glad i came across this blog, because this is the first i have heard of Sin sod…. I am living in denmark but have been taking trips to Thailand and met a beautiful thai girl that was working in a quiet bar in a small town / village.. Ive only known her for a few months and spend a few weeks with her when i go to Thailand , and will do the same in a few weeks time again… We spoke about marriage,her coming to live with me, and had looked at getting married when i come over again.. But now that i see this mention of sin sod it has kind of put me off the idea a bit. Not that i dont want to be with her , or help out her family ( i´ve already helped by paying a few thousand baht to put her son into a good hospital when he took sick and nearly died) but i also have financial things to deal with here and made a big loss from a previous relationship, house etc.. At the moment it is taking me long enough to make enough money to go to Thailand so often to see her, also i send money to her , because i asked her to go back home instead of working in bar and have “tourists” trying to bar-fine her.. Now i see this sin sod thing, i am worried because i promised to marry her and now if i bring this up with her that i can not afford to pay a big sum of money to give to her parents she will be upset im sure.. Her parents do not have money, and her brothers and sisters who have all left school do not go to work.. Not now since i started sending her money… They can get jobs ( not making much) but prefer to doss about all day, getting fed and washing done etc… To me that is freeloading, certainly not acceptable in my culture.. So part of me is saying “why should i be sending money to look after them when they are capable of looking after themselves”.. so at the moment i am a bit confused, and really have some thinking to do… look forward to reading more stories from people with same problems..
Richard b(Quote)
You met a girl in a bar and after a few weeks you were already talking about marriage and have promised to marry her, does this not seem a little “unusual” to you?
From what I have seen most women who are divorced, with or without children, or are single and have children very rarely ask for sin sodt, as my wife so kindly put it when I asked her they are seen as “used” and in most cases the families are happy that someone will accept them into their lives and support them.
That said I attended a wedding in Sakon Nakon just before the new year where the groom paid 500,000 baht sin sodt and married a lady with 3 children, to 3 different fathers. I figured she must be very good at something
Lloyd(Quote)
Hi
I recently met with a Thai girl in Bangkok. She is from a village in the NW and works as a book keeper for a large company. She wanted Sin Sod of various amounts up to 2,000,000 baht? She came to various destinations around Thailand and we had a great time but always the Sin Sod question arose. She wanted 100,000 baht to keep mother happy and for a ring. She would be thrown on the streets and wanted 70,000 a month for rent? This is about £1500 each month. I did expect to meet with mother and some cousins on our return to Bangkok but I think that my promise to tell mother to eff off and slap father if there was any nonsense worked.
She now wants to run away and live with me without any Sin Sod but how can a relationship work which has started with so much crap. How can any man allow himself to be embarrassed and bullied into paying and if he does he should expect to keep paying.
She is a great girl and I would have a great wife especially now that I explained how she is worth less and less every time I hear about mother crying “Sin Sod”
Yes respect Thai culture but do not lose your self respect and your own culture.
Geoff(Quote)
I have no comment but a question: how much is 10 bath gold (USD)
Thanks
Yelmo(Quote)
I think it is about 4,400 UK Pounds, so work that out in Dollars…a fair bit of gold
TheThailandLife(Quote)
Thank you for the reply!
Yelmo(Quote)
Gold prices are set by the Bank of Thailand daily, todays price was 24,832 THB per Baht weight, for non ornamental gold, at todays rate of exchange that’s close to an even $8000 USD. Closer to £5300 GBP!
The Bangkok Post lists the daily price on its website in the Business section.
Lloyd(Quote)
Yes 1 Baht of gold is the same as 1 ounce and from what I see Thai gold is of a poor quality regardless of the carat indicated
Geoff(Quote)
Geoff, you must have a problem with what you can see then, or you have no idea what you are talking about!
Thai gold as it is known, which is all gold sold retail in Thailand, has a purity of 96.5% pure, or 23 carat gold. By comparison the average purity of retail gold in Nth America, UK and Europe is between 40-75% pure, or less than 18 carats.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carat_(purity)
Lloyd(Quote)
In the UK we tend to look at very yellow gold- like thai gold – as tacky, but in actual fact it is our gold, as Lloyd pointed out, that is worth less and has a far lower percentage of purity. I am not a gold fan in terms of wearing, but the price of Thai gold seems to be running away right now.
TheThailandLife(Quote)
also your math is way out 25000 Baht is £512 and gold is about £1020 so Thai gold seems quite a bargain!
If your math is this out of kilter dont marry any woman as she will clean you out.
I was married for 20 yrs and the British system, like USA, gives the wife all that you own so we should stop bitchin about Thai girls. I only wish that any of my european girlfriends were half as good as my Thai girl DRAW ur own conclusions.
Geoff(Quote)
apologies I now understand that the last maths was not 25,000 Baht is £5000 but 10 baht gold is £5000
Geoff(Quote)
Hello…
I have meet a Thaigirl….and i will like to merry her…..what do I have to pay in “SindSod”…?? Hope you can give me an advice??
She is 40 years old…..unmarried….have 2 children, who lives with the father to the children. She´s is a teacher…
Her mother are housewife….Her dad have been a teacher and now he have a farm. (Ricefarm)…
Hope you can and will give me an advice,…..thank´s.
And sorry my bad english..
Ole
Ole Espersen(Quote)
Hi Ole,
I am sure her family will want to meet you first, and after that they may request a particular amount for sin sod. There are many factors to be considered as I point out in my post. However, they may not ask for anything, they may leave it up to you and your girlfriend to decide, they may ask for a certain amount but give it back after the wedding; it all depends on the family really. It also depends on what you can afford and how much you personally feel is appropriate. If you read the comments in this section you will see that there are many differing experiences. The post I have written here draws on the experience and advice of Thai friends of mine, so take that as a guideline but by no means as the gospel truth in all situations.
Sin sod is often described as repayment for the “mother’s milk” – her hardship, sacrifice, time and money invested in bringing up her daughter – and as such, the higher the amount the better it looks on mother and daughter. In a way I guess it represents the job the mother has done, good or bad. It is usually representative of the girl’s status in relation to others in her village, family, peers, etc. For example, a girl who has been educated beyond university is likely to marry someone of similar ilk from a comfortable family, and would therefore have a larger sin sod than a girl who left school at 14 and worked the rice fields who married someone of similar status from a poorer family.
Unfortunately, in many cases foreigners are subject to extortionate requests on the basis that they don’t know the tradition properly, and the fact that they are “farangs” and therefore perceived as rich. In many rural areas, if a girl marries a foreigner, friends and neighbors expect to see a big sin sod and big house to follow in the village, if they don’t, tongues start wagging as to why the girl bothered to marry a foreigner when marrying a Thai man would have yielded much the same. Many families see sin sod and the wedding as a way of escalating their status and increasing face in the village, rather than a celebration of love…not all, some.
Sin sod isn’t something you can really compromise on by saying “it isn’t my culture” because for many Thais it is a very important part of the wedding ceremony. It is difficult for me to say what you should pay. I’d say come up with an amount to show at the wedding and an amount you can afford to give to her family if they want to keep it. She is 40, which sadly by thai standards is considered passed the marry sell-by-date (not being rude, not my opinion), she has kids from a previous relationship, what is her education? I’d say show what you want but I wouldn’t part with more than 200,000. I doubt a Thai man would pay more than that…but as I said, I don’t know your girlfriend and I hate to speculate. Again, it boils down to what you feel comfortable with, too. A better way to look at it is as a gift to the family. If they are fairly poor then offering a couple of hundred thousand baht as a gift for marrying their daughter is a nice gesture. If they are well off then they don’t need your money and perhaps they will just expect the sin sod for show and give it back.
hope this helps a bit…
TheThailandLife(Quote)
Hi all,
->My wife was 37 when I married her (not been married before)
->-She is an isaan girl from a farming family
->She had permanent residency to live in Australia before I met her.
->I married her in Aust (2005)
->We went to Thailand for the honeymoon and paid her parents 30000 bt
->I think they wanted 1 mil
BK(Quote)
hi all, looking at the posts / comments on here, some great advice.
i have been told by my future thai wife , that her mother has asked for 1 million baht in sin sod, talk about panic, i got wiped out by two divorces and the recession, only just picking my self up when i met Ouy on line and i have been over to see her and whole family, she has 3 kids to 2 ex thai husbands, she is 36 years old and only school education, now works on family farm and market.
i think that she got the idea of 1 million baht after a long conversation on line , where we both had a laugh and where enjoying getting to know each other ( only known each other for couple of months , by this time ), i without knowing any thing of sin sod, said “you are one in a million” was having such a great time talking about every thing and enjoying her great personality. those who are not English or don’t know , in England one in a million is a common saying.
so i think that now we are going to get married, been together for nearly two years, she in thailand , living with her parents and me stuck in spain trying to earn money fast (with 5 million out of work in spain) she has remembered that saying , but as she has told her parents that i offered 1 million baht sin sod, can not go back as this is not her saving face, i need advice , tried to talk to her , she said she can not tell parents she got it wrong and i don’t have that sort of money and get married and support her and 3 young kids.
also , a word of warning to others, watch what and how you say things, it can be harmless to you but taken out of context , your in trouble. like me .
i will not give up on her for the sake of money , i love her, her kids and family , will do all i can , just need to make the family see i don’t have a fortune, trying to explain about recession, unemployment etc. they can not comprehend it all and my thai is not up to explaining it .
there has to be a way .
to get there to see them all, takes 3 days and takes 4 flights, i live on an island , so have to fly to main land first , then from madrid or london, to middle east or india, then bangkok and then to the north east of thailand. all more costs, but worth every penny .
100,000 baht, flights and hotel over christmas , 25 days i was there . missing them all so much , but can not live and work in thailand , need bigger money .
hope i get some good advice and also hope this helps others to watch what and how they say things , even when joking , it could cost you a lot.
thanks , great site, best regards to all johnian
johnian(Quote)
Sorry to say it but you would have to question why your partner believes you have 1 Million baht cash, €25,000, available. If after 2 years together your partner does not know and understand your financial position and understand what you can and cannot afford for her and her family then there is something fundamentally wrong with the relationship, probably not deliberately but amiss none the less.
Lloyd(Quote)
I had a terrible time with Sin of the Sod.
I met and married Thai girl very quickly. She is an Isaan girl. married before to a Thai man, and her parents received substantial sin sod.
I told her what I had, and what I didn’t have financially.
My reality meant nothing. My Thai wife is programmed to believe a Farang, Westerner is rich and can pay everything, anywhere, any cost, any time.
I brought her to New Zealand but the pressure went on. There was money for her, money for her son, money for her parents, money for car, money for savings, money for her trip back home, and there was no way of talking my way out of it.
I just gave up in despair and depression.
peterquixote(Quote)
I guess that is why they say “only fools rush in”, not that I am calling you a fool, god knows we have all done it at one stage or another, but to what extent determines the damage. Always best to wait a good 2-3 years to see what the girl is all about, I think. Isaan girl, Bangkok girl or English girl, it doesn’t matter, never splash the cash to begin with. Act like you earn average money even if you do pretty well for yourself. Not to be stingy, but to make sure the woman in question is with you for love and not money. I need to know that my GF will be with me whether I have 100 dollars left in the bank or 100m baht.
Sadly, many poor, uneducated Thai women believe the farang is the answer to all their problems and that happiness in life can be acquired through wealth; in fact this mindset isn’t exclusive to the poor/uneducated sector – the misguided superficial mind has become a human condition. In addition to this there is the often desperate mission to upgrade the face of the family, etc. On top of this is parental pressure (something reader Bibblies might pitch in on). Many girls are manipulated to provide more and more money to their families, and in fact no matter how much is given the requests will never stop, and much of the money is wasted on drinking, gambling and frivolous things.
Many girls choose the first farang they can get their hands on based on limited availability and high demand, and many farang often choose the first girl who says the right things and batters her eyelids provocatively. This, of course, is largely a recipe for disaster, for both parties. It isn’t always the foreigner who ends up with a bum deal – I am sure there are large numbers of Thai women moaning about their drunken, unfaithful, “keenock” partners.
Sadly many foreigner-thai relationships are centered around financial security for the woman, particularly where huge age gaps are concerned it is hard to see there is any other common ground. Many foreigners are happy with this, they get a young pretty woman to shag and who cooks and cleans (not always a lasting promise), and the girl gets financial support for her kids and family. But then what happens when funds are in short supply and the relationship has no emotional or spiritual grounding, or real friendship for that matter. It breaks down.
It begs the question, do Thai women really want a foreign boyfriend or just the security? I have heard many a Thai woman say that Thai men are fun and romantic, yet lack the ability to be faithful or reliable, i.e. “Thai man no good”. Perhaps this is why you hear the cliche story of elder foreign partner and Thai boyfriend (more her age) on the side. Best of both worlds, I guess. Of course one has to take every relationship on the merit of its individuality. There are thousands of happy Thai-foreign relationships based on love and friendship, I’m sure. But one must go into relationships, and at the very least, marriage, with both eyes open and two feet on the ground….although how easy that is to do is another debate.
I hope you get back on your feet and find real love (whatever that means
).
TheThailandLife(Quote)
Great blog..very interesting..and a breath of fresh air from a lot of the other Thai blogs out there,
)..but I know it will get better..the more you learn the easier it gets,
I travel to Thailand any free time I have off work for around the past 6 years,so anywhere from 3 to 6 months a year there(I work offshore),I have had one serious relationship that ended over the dreaded Sin Sod…I was asked to pay 150k baht Sin sod to marry a girl I was in a relationship with for 2 years ,The girl in question Noi was 35 had been married previously and had two daughter 11 and 8, she had a good job a big house and rarely asked me for money, barring the usual for any relationship..short for something at the end of the month phone bill or some such,but when the talk came around to marriage and the Sin sod I said that the culture in my Country was that I would pay for my daughters wedding and why should I have to give money to her Father and still pay for the wedding etc,She said it was only a nominal fee and when she got married before her Ex husband had to pay 1million baht,the long and the short of it we split up after some heated discussions..I felt in the right but in actual fact I was really wrong..I knew very little in fact less than a little about Thai Culture..150k Baht was a perfectly acceptable amount..in fact even though she was married before she was probably better off than me in a lot of ways and although not rich she was financially secure without me,one of the things I do not like so much about Thai culture and that is “face”but..by me not agreeing to pay 150K Baht Sin sod she was losing “face” essentially by me saying no to paying her father I was in her eyes saying “no you are not worth that money to me”and all of her family would be able to see that by me refusing,In the end the relationship went south but it did teach me a valuable lesson,if you are in a relationship with someone from another culture and you really love that person make it your business to really understand them and to understand their Culture if its important to them it should also be important to you and they essentially will be your other half for life,
I love Thailand I love the People and am starting to like the Thai Culture a lot more,I have been gradually learning Thai over the last years..but have decided that this year I will dedicate to learning as much of the Language and Thai Script and Culture as I can,I have just got to the point of being able to write Thai words and understand and read Thai words(its a miracle in my mind
Sin Sod….if you know the girl and love the girl..it is part of Thai Culture not everyone is looking for a free ride ..My advice is..it is your wife to be’s Culture and Respect her by Respecting her Culture.
Derek(Quote)
Derek, thank you for sharing your story, you have brought a useful angle to the debate. As you say, there is a need to really understand the aspects of Thai culture that are of significance when entering a long term relationship with a Thai. Admittedly, Sin Sod isn’t as important to some families as it is to others but, the majority of Thai women will want to show money at their wedding to reflect their own status and that of their family. The wedding is as much about the family as it is about the girl. Seldom do we think about this but you summed it up well by saying, “I was in her eyes saying “no you are not worth that money to me” and all of her family would be able to see that by me refusing”…
As foreigners we get hung up on this “I am not buying a bride” thing. But actually this isn’t what Sin Sod is, as I point out in the post. Perhaps many are conscious of the many “money grabbing Thai bride” stories forever doing the rounds, and let this stop them from properly understanding Sin Sod. Perhaps many are conscious of the stigma attached to paying for a “Thai bride”. But these are our hang ups, and yes, if you marry into another culture, or indeed get married at all, you have to consider what aspects of the wedding are important to your future wife. Of course, don’t pay out what you can’t afford, but I’ve said it before and I will say it again, the likelihood is that marrying in Thailand will save you a lot more than marrying back home. In fact the price of Sin Sod might well be what an English woman would expect me to fork out for a dress!
TheThailandLife(Quote)
incredible! because now i got the problem about “sin sod” it really hard to make my boyfriend understand Right.Cuz he think “sin sod “is pay for buy me
..it like i stay between my boyfriend and my family….Tradition
i hope after he read this website..he will understand more than before
Thank you…
Ninew1719(Quote)
Sitting here in an internet shop in a rural section of Udon, still a bit numb from yesterday’s lesson in Thai / Isaan culture. My wife of 3 weeks, (registered at Amphur), left me suddenly and is now in Bangkok, she is too “shy”, to use her word, to stay in her village at her parents house with me. She keeps asking for 1 million baht sin sod for the wedding ceremony. She said I agreed to 1 million baht at my first meeting with her family, which is not true in my mind. I do remember her mentioning 1M baht, but, didn’t take it seriously and just laughed it off. It was probably the only English words I hear during that first meeting. Somehow she thought I agreed to that amount and now she is unable to stay in the village and with me anymore, until I have 1M for sin sod. So we are seperated after only 3 weeks, all because of sin sod. I explained to her many times my financial situation, my blown savings from numerous trips to Thailand in the past and being drained by other Thai ladies and my continuing support of 2 ex-wives and the fact that I only have Social Security income at the moment, but, she thinks I can somehow come up with 1M baht. I told her that if I’m careful I could save 25,000 baht per month and if I should get a job here teaching English, it could be 35,000 – 40,000, but I told her to do the math. How long until I have 1M baht? MANY YEARS!! Well, she says she can wait until then, but, we will live apart. I’ve mentioned this already to a few people and all think this is crazy. She is a divorced lady with child from a rice farming family and from what I have read I shouldn’t be expected to give such a large sum. I’m assuming she has lost face and that’s the reason for her sudden departure. Now, I’m living alone, at her parents home, not sure what to do next. She is telling me I shouldn’t stay there too long because her parents cannot support me. What a crazy predicament I’ve gotten myself into!!! Perspective grooms beware, keep your eyes open and read up on this subject carefully.
Richard(Quote)
How long have you known your wife and how much do you know about her? Did you not communicate properly on this part of the wedding before you married? I will be frank with you; she has a child and is from a rice farming family, and was married before. I am assuming she didn’t finish school either – or at the most only high school. So, the reason she is seeking to marry a foreigner is for financial security because she is incapable of supporting herself and her child/family. So why has she left, well, think about it, why would she marry and stay with a poor foreigner when she could just as easily marry a poor Thai guy from her village who at the very least she has many things in common with and can communicate with her effectively. This might sound harsh, but when I hear these stories I feel a reality check is needed.
My GF was born in Kalasin (Isaan), we’ve been together 3.5 years. She is the same age as me, university educated, no kids and from an average family. I won’t be paying anywhere near 1m Baht sin sod when we marry. I will offer an affordable sum as a gift to her family. Enough to represent her status in her village but nothing that will cripple me financially. Of course 1m Baht is too much for you to pay, a Thai guy certainly wouldn’t pay more than 200,000; I’d say more like 100,000.
A relationship shouldn’t be conditionally based around money. If she loves you she’ll be there whether you have 100 Baht in your pocket or 10m. My advice is cut and run. Find a Thai woman your own age, someone you have things in common with, someone who isn’t solely holding out for your cash. develop a great friendship and then let it develop naturally.
And it won’t stop at 1m baht either…then you need to buy her gold too!
TheThailandLife(Quote)
Have persued her to Nonthaburi, believing we could live together here away for the vilage and parents. It’s not working out, we talk by phone, but, face to face meeting is out of the question at the moment until sin sod is ready. It seems that she believes I promised 1M. baht during my first meeting with the family, but, I never did. She attended a university in Udon, majoring in economics, hmmm… and ran sucessful spa, cell and dress shops in BKK and Udon. She had at one time a few years ago saved almost 1M from these businesses. She is not your typical rice farmer girl, she is business oriented and has spent much of her time after college running her businesses and improving her family’s living condition. She had spent alot of money to improve the house and even built a farang hong naam and air-conditioned bedroom for us. Well she seems very insistent that we not be together until after a formal wedding ceremony with 1M sin sod on the table. I don’t understand this, she says the sin sod will be for display only and given back by her parents. If that is that case, I’m wondering if anyone at the wedding with count the displayed sin sod to see if it’s really 1M or less. Why all the fuss if it’s only for display. Now I thinking maybe the bank or someone can loan 1M for a day for display purposes only. Hmmmm… is that a possible solution.??
Richard(Quote)
The money is counted when displayed unfortunately, and yes, in this day and age it is often given back. It all depends on the family and whether they need it or not. The fact that your GF is university educated and runs her own businesses may warrant the 1m Baht for show, but she has been married before and has a child so unless her family is pretty well to do it is quite high. Second mariages do not take on the significance like they do in the west, thus the fact that you will always be told of a woman, “it’s her second husband” pretty much before you get her name. That said, if her family has considerable status in the village – the likelihood is the family has talked up her achievements (as is the nature of Isaan moo-baans) – she may well need to show that much to prove the status she has portrayed…any less and people will be like, “Yea, but I thought she was/had…” etc.
If she has the businesses then the bank will lend her 1m for sure, but then the idea is that her man is worthy of her…i.e. you can pay it, or at least show it. This is what many farang fail to realise; Thailand is a class driven society, one doesn’t normally marry underneath one’s self, and therefore the Sin Sod shows reflects the status of both parties. It shows you are worthy of each other, as are your families.
Moreover, she has spent money on the home building a room with aircon and toilet for you both, that would have set her back 100k. So in her mind she is thinking, hang on, something is wrong here, in Thailand men support their women, not the other way round; and he is a farang! (Yes we are expected to have more dosh sadly). If you don’t have it you don’t have it….not much you can do, but she isn’t likely to settle for someone with no money, not even enough for her expected sin sod. You have to think about this, she owns her own businesses, she is educated, she isn’t a bar girl who left school at 11 that you can show 100,000 baht sin sod for – I know one shouldn’t put monetary worth on a person but sadly this is part of a classist set up – I don’t agree but if you want a Thai GF it is what it is. She needs to maintain her status and that of her family. If you love her and want to pursue this tell her you have read up on sin sod, and since this is her second marriage and she has a child, you are willing to meet half way and show 500k for the benefit of face and tradition.
Good luck
TheThailandLife(Quote)
Updating my story today from a new location, now living in Bangkok. Just rented a apartment / condo with a 1 year lease on the urgings of my wife to have a place where can live away from the village. So far I’ve had no luck getting her to visit me, still seems to be same old conversation, day after day. Not sure where she is, first she hinted at being in Nonthaburi, however today she claims to be in Samut Prakan, hmmm… whatever!! She seems more willing to visit me, thought it would be today but it might be next week. She is planning to go back to Udon to start her course at the hair design school. She was supposed start the day she fled, and we were going to rent a room near the school and even put a deposit on it. This would have been a great chance for us to be away from the village and try to start a life together while I looked for some teaching work in Udon. Well now that I’ve settled into Bangkok, she wants me to go to Udon with her, hmmm….. Well, I said no, I would stay here and try to find work here. Asked her to stay in BKK with me, but, so far no luck. She is resigned to us living apart, so be it! I think I just need more kwaam ot-ton (patience), she seems to be softening her position, but, not sure she is thinking of a lesser
amount, but, seems more willing to meet me. Now the last twist is that she told her parents and daughter that I went back to America to earn “big” money and would return with sin sod in hand, really!!! I guess this will help her parents save face with the village but I can’t return there it seems unless I have a wallet bulging with 1M baht. I getting used to this life-changing event and starting to feel that I’m not the only one to have this kind of relationship with a Thai lady. Probably many guys with similiar stories, I just need to visit some bars, I’m sure I’ll find many. To be continued…
Richard(Quote)
WOW, Richard, what is going on here?
- Why are you letting her treat you this way?
- Why are you not giving her an ultimatum to come and see you and speak things through or never come back at all?
Fact is, no Thai guy would accept this so why are you? Moreover, would you accept such treatment from a partner like this in your home country?
I can assure you this isn’t the norm. If I were you I’d get back in the market and find one of the millions of single Thai (or other) women who wouldn’t treat you like this.
Hope things work out for the best.
TheThailandLife(Quote)
Hi Pete!
First of all i’d like to say thanks for all the blogging effort, nice work!
After reading this article about sin-sod I read your quote “Sin Sod is not a dowry”… I find this strange as my Thai wife calls it a dowry, and her Thai parents call it a dowry…
??
Ones & Zeros(Quote)
Hi, funny you replied on this just as i was reading a thread on ThaiVisa about Sin Sod…some of those guys crack me up with their perception of Thai culture and understanding of Sin Sod. Honestly, I feel so sorry for some of their GFs/wives, refusing to pay or worse insulting the girl and her family by choosing to show less than a rice farmer would do. Then they moan that farang get no respect in the village, I’m not surprised! Anyway…In answer to your question, yes in a way it is a dowry, but for want of a better word…because westerners perceive a dowry as buying a wife, which Sin Sod is not at all. You could refer to it as such but I prefer not to because it immediately gives folks back home the wrong impression.
Nice beats on your Soundcloud by the way!
TheThailandLife(Quote)
Thank you
Yes I understand what you are saying, but I think anyone worth a grain of salt back home would understand that weddings cost money for a start, and also that the bottom line is that it’s helping your wife’s family. I myself was a bit turned off by the idea myself at first, but it takes a while to get a grasp of many aspects of Thai culture.
Personally, I think most people have the wrong impression about most things Thai. Sometimes it is plainly because they are just ignorant douchebags, but it’s mostly that people are trying to filter Thai life through Western eyes, or vise versa. “Impressions” aren’t something I generally worry about, but I can see how we can make it a bit easier for people to understand Thai culture, and I’m glad that Pete is trying to do just that.
If people can’t discern past judgement then I’m glad they’re not in my travel group, but if they are I would generally offer them a few paragraphs to read from a book such as “Thailand Fever”, which is great for showing people (both Thai and ‘western’) that there is a completely different angle to ‘why people do what they do’. I’m lucky enough to have family and friends that have all been very understanding and ALL want to go back to Thailand again very soon. I was very happy to see everyone at least trying to speak Thai, it’s a bit sad to see foreigners not even attempting to learn the basics.
and yes, I think the word “Sin-Sod” is a bit nicer than “dowry”.
Thanks again Pete!
Ones & Zeros(Quote)
Hi! My brother (who is American) has a Thai girlfriend. Recently her parents sat down with my dad and my brother and said that they want $400,000 (US) dollars for the Sin Sod. His gf is pretty, in her mid twenties, and university educated, but from all estimates I’ve read this price is outrageous. What is your opinion?
Jackie(Quote)
Hi Jackie, out of interest was she raised in the US or Thailand? Are they expecting to keep this money or is just for show? If she is related to a seriously wealthy high society family with a name to uphold then I could understand (culture/society wise) why they would expect to show that much, although it would be returned because they don’t need the money. If she is a Thai movie star or popstar then she would also require this amount or more to show the press. But if she is a uni grad from a family of average wealth then it’s just silly.
TheThailandLife(Quote)
“$400,000 (US) dollars ”
Did I read this figure correctly? Even if you drop a “0″ off the end its still an outrageous amount. Surely something has been lost in translation??
Steve(Quote)
all not real sinsod nobody can not fix sinsod only her family can fix sinsod
women been married already or never when her marry again have to pay sinsod
how much sinsod up to family her not they bring her up not depends 1.Family Name
2.Education
3.Prior Marital Status
4.Dependants
5.Job
6.Age
i want you know real about that then you can put on internet because no good for not know real and put on internet then make damage of my cultur and my tradition did you know ? some women who married already can marry again sissod more than frist time so sinsod depands her family not depends something anything
Mr Wat(Quote)
Thank you for your input Mr Wat. The post was researched with three different Thai people and based on my experience of Thai weddings, and is not simply my opinion. It seems that opinion is fairly divided among Thai people though, and perhaps that’s because it’s an old tradition that has been modified and interpreted differently over time. I have also been told that women remarrying do have a sin sod; I never said they couldn’t. However, it is usually lower in value, right? I did also say, as you said, that it is the family who decide, not the bride to be. Perhaps you can provide us with some more information from your experience so that we can better understand this part of your culture. Thank you.
TheThailandLife(Quote)
I am hoping to marry a Thai girl from the north next year (not a bar girl), and live in the Uk when possible. She’s not a virgin but has no children. Reasonable education. I think I have read enough to know the situation with sin-sod.
What I am trying to establish beforehand is how much is reasonable to be expected to send back to her family each month? They are (relatively) poor farmers.
thanks
Graham(Quote)
Hi Graham,
Many girls from poorer families who work away from home do send money home each month to help out, and from my understanding the onus is on the youngest (unmarried) daughter to help out financially. When a girl marries this usually stops and her husband isn’t expected (culturally) to pick this up. That isn’t to say Thai guys don’t help out, many do, many don’t. However, a large number of farang-thai relationships are transactional in this respect. For example, the daughter decides she will marry a much older foreigner, “take care” of him, etc, for a agreed fee each month to support her kids/parents/dependents; a house is often thrown in too.
Personally, I wouldn’t send money on a monthly basis, quite simply because the likelihood is that the family will begin to rely on it, work less and expect more as they become accustomed to a new lifestyle – you will have heard the “my buffalo is sick” stories, I’m sure. You would essentially be providing a salary/benefits that may end up causing more problems than doing good. Extended family may also start asking for a piece of the pie.
In my opinion the best way to handle the situation is to give a gift (whatever you can afford) every now and again, and to help out in a family crisis such as urgent work on the house or perhaps a younger needing some essential stuff for school. Rather than giving money every month you could buy stuff they really need every now and again; like a fridge, a new fan or work tools. ..?
If your GF has been working in Thailand up until now and sending money home, and you plan for her to stop work when you marry, then she may expect you to pick up where she left off. Depending on her job, I doubt this was more than 3-5,000 Baht. However, as a farang, you will most likely be expected to send more; I mean why would she marry a farang if he can’t provide more than she can alone or with a Thai partner?
Consider also; if you’re paying sin sod and the money isn’t being returned, what is happening to this money? Is it being wisely invested? Is it being used to set up a small business to generate an income? Which would mean you and your GF (wife) won’t have to keep sending money all the time.
I am not saying be stingy, but I have been around a while here, seen and been in many situations, and my experience is that you have to be practical and firm when it comes to money, and be careful that you don’t become the proverbial bottomless farang money pit. It’s a nice thought that you can send a little money each month and the family will be really grateful, spend it wisely and live a better life, but the reality is rarely without complication and headache. If you want to provide regular financial support then be astute – make sure your financial position is understood and know where your money is going. This will be in their best interest as well as yours.
One thing I’d suggest is having a conversation with her sister’s German husband and finding out what set up they have going on.
*Please note that my reply is fairly general, I don’t know your specific situation and of course each relationship is different. Your GF’s family may be great with money, be over the moon with 2,000 Baht a month, save it every month for 5 years and build a new small home
TheThailandLife(Quote)
I think the answer can only be found within your own, and your future wifes, own discussions on the matter anything else is introducing heresay and arguably more fiction than fact to an equation that is already fraught with emotion.
Lloyd(Quote)
I should also add that she has a sister who is marrried to a German (they are building house there) I do not know what (if any) money they contribute to family.
Graham(Quote)
many thanks for the comprehensive reply – the time you have taken is appreciated, as is the advice.
Graham(Quote)
I have been reading a few of these posts and thought I would add to this ever expanding blog. This is a little exciting as I have never contributed to a blog before.
I am looking to marry a thai lady next year and don’t have to much of a problem with the thought of sin sod. I have been regularly travelling back to thailand over the last 10 years and think I owe the place. I also love my fiancé and do want the wedding to be done in the right culture.
I only had a problem when as mentioned in a few past posts after i had agreed a figure I found out that it had gone back to the family and come back doubled and then some. This put a lot of pressure on my fiance to negotiate on what I had already agreed. After some traumatic chats have now increased the sin sod to a value and I am happy with and can afford still. In my mind the extra money will be used to cover the ceremony and a reception. I don’t expect to get any back after the ceremony but if i do I won’t complain
Maybe I will post again as i get closer to the date with an update.
I did see a few posts about people putting money into accounts for the family. I haven’t actually thought about what happens at the ceremony. It is a large sum of cash to be left lying around after the ceremony. Do the family take it straight away or do you get back after ceremony and then go deposit at the bank.
danny(Quote)
Hi Danny, congratulations on breaking your blog virginity
And congrats on your wedding plans. Regarding the money being left lying around, I would be looking to deposit that straight to the bank. Also consider where it will be kept the day/night before. Perhaps you can arrange to use the hotel safe, but even that might not be safe. I am sure her parents have a bank account, if not, you can open one with Bangkok Bank or other, see this post here http://www.thethailandlife.com/thai-bank-account-foreigners
Keep us updated!
TheThailandLife(Quote)
hi brother,
first very very great blog i ever know. great shares and experience. i visited thailand more than four times, as i go there every year to get relaxed for about a week. last visit a met a thai girl and realised i cant live without her. I share my feelings with her and she told me was married before and divocered and having two daughters. She is working in bar because she dont have any other option of earning money. Her parents are died and her elder sister takes care of her childrens. she told me she cant come with me as she is the sole earner of her family. i asked how much money she spend on her family and the answer is about 30000 baht a month considering her two kids.
Brother i stay in india and getting about USD2000/- as a salary so it is almost immpossible to pay her USD1000/- a month. But i know i cant live without her. please advise what to do bcoz i think i loosing my weight, i m not feeling well
pleeeease heeeeeelp bro.
roshe(Quote)
Hi Roshe,
First off take a step back and consider the following. You barely know this girl and have no idea whether she is telling the truth. Sadly, and I am sure others will agree, you are probably getting a very diluted version of the truth. Girls go to work in bars to make money from foreigners. Many of them have multiple boyfriends sending them money. This is a profession. Even if she is telling the complete truth, to consider becoming the boyfriend of a girl under a financial arrangement is not a good foot to start on. If you do decide to be with her I am not saying you shouldn’t help her out, but 30,000 Baht is way too much. Did you know that the average salary in Bangkok is about 13,000 Baht? Only those who are fairly well educated earn 30,000+. In fact this is the salary for a foreign teacher in Thailand. There is no way she needs that much, especially for a rural family. Most Thais upcountry live on about 100-200 Baht per day per person, many less. I guarantee her kids and sister live in a family home so there is no rent to pay. Let me give you some comparison here. My GF worked at a hotel in customer service/sales. She earned about 20k a month – 15 basic + commission. From this she paid her rent, socialised and sent a few thousand home for her mother and father to supplement their income. She also saved a bit. Another Thai friend of my is a computer programmer. He earns 25k a month, and went to a good Bangkok university. Come to think of it; many farang here live on less than that. If she is sending 30k a month home she is doing very well in the bar. That means sleeping with a lot of men. Are you going to give up half your salary to support her family’s better than well-off lifestyle.
Do you really want to suddenly start supporting 2 children that aren’t yours? What about dating first? What about getting to know her family? How do relationships work in your country? Consider this before jumping in. Also consider that if you send her money she will promise to leave the bar, but the likelihood is she won’t. I saw this situation time and time again when i lived in Samui. She could be a lovely, genuine girl, I don’t know her, but she may also be a very professional bar girl adept with extortion tactics. Please go slowly and make your decisions based on facts and practicalities (at least at this stage) rather than emotions. Good luck and start eating!
TheThailandLife(Quote)
Thanks Brother.
I am sure you are the only person who helps me out of this situation. I already accepted that working in a bar in pattaya, she met many farangs but a very strong monetary reason is behind her decision. Being a Indian relationship is given top priority and relationship with divorced woman can’t be accepted at all. Living with her is a very toughest decision of my life.
Being a seafarer I travelled almost all over the world and met many girls. I know girls strategy very well as it is their everyday business but I never been tricked or trapped in them. This is the first time I can’t make any decision. If I make any wrong decision I can’t forgive myself if she is genuine and if she plays with my feelings…….
One of my friend from Italy who is making 5000 euro a month stays in Thailand for a entire winter with her lady as he finds very difficult to carry her with him to Italy.
I think, I have to spend some more time with her and I will try to understand her family and thai life, psychology. I kept my finger crossed.
May be after winter I visit Thailand. Surely contact you and please don’t mind if I mailed you again for any updates or your suggestion. If your heart is good you find everything good. My heart is clean.
Talking to you gives me great relief. 50% fog is cleared, rest I will clean with your help.
Thanks again bro.
And the better part is I started looking more resources to earn money may be I need it to start better relationship.
roshe(Quote)
What a load of rubbish. this is utter nonsense as to what sinsod is or not.
Just because you have thai friends and a girl friend whose words you like to believe does not make any of this correct.
Let me put the author in touch with information real and historical.
But before I do that, let me also put some real points to it. And no these has NOT come from the Horse’s A**e either, because these free loaders are just brainwashed at telling you what they have learnt since childhood.
It really bothers me and gets on my wick when I hear somebody, who has had the upbringing in the west and the exposure to what should be what and just because they have had their ba**s soaked in some tw*at they start suddenly loosing all concept of ethics and reality and suddenly become , for their love of sun and sex all so very culturally aware and informed.
I will also give you the real origins of sinsod in a minute but first, if you have sex and bear children , then they are your responsibility until they are adults and independent.
If you bear them with the thought that they will look after you in old age, then that is up to the individual. If you bear them and raise them up in the hope that someday , somebody is going to come and pay good money for them, then that is no different to animal farming.
If you have children then providing , love care and education is your parental duty.
If you think , oh, my daughter if gets married and goes away, shall dent my income, then shame on you for being a parent, because what do you want her to do, not have a life and just look after you and see to your needs of hungry for money attitude.
But then the whole nation is at it , including the system, where people value money more than their own families.
If a parent can sit and think , that a daughter is better of being single and staying home to provide her with an income, rather than some true loving man caring for her , until such time a good lump sump can be demanded and gotten for her , then no matter how you put it , it is selling your child.
Thai’s do not have high ethics. They do not see any problem with their daughters and wives prostituting , for money , since their needs are more greedier than their sense of self respect.
Now I am sure there is a small percentage of Thais who are not in the same category. but on the whole the majority are like that.
And what is Sinsod really. It is as the author puts it , A compensation payment for the investment the parents have made in their daughter. Wow, and that is not selling to recoup your costs and a payment inflation proofed for the years to come . grow up , it is called selling.
This is how it came a long time ago. Most Thai’s could not tell you that or would not tell you that even if they knew it, because it exposes the true face of this so called tradition .
This is what happened and was started by rich Arabs, who preyed on poor people for their sexual gratification. They did this in many places in Asia and Africa.
I cannot remember the African country where this dowry in exchange of a girl became a tradition alongwith Thailand
These people , were born rich, and have the tendency to take many women and add them to their stock and still refer to them as wives. So much so , they sometimes married a woman who they looked at and felt horny at the time and added her to their collection of wives.
Now how did they do that. They bought them. But then you can’t say to somebody sell me your child , because I am a dirty old man and am lusting after your barely legal age daughter, or even a young child for that matter.
So they invented this payment in kind as a custom, and said to poor parents who sometimes were just too greedy and sometimes just too needy , and sold them this concept of , that I will look after you daughter. And I guarantee that with this advance payment for you and her , in case I falter. And then justified to them that they did a beautiful job of raising a daughter and gave birth and fed and looked after her and that this was an appreciation of their hard work.
900 years ago the Indian priests and monks were spreading religion in Thailand , but the Thais forgot all about that and Buddha’s real teachings some 4 centuries later, and got drawn into the material world at any cost . including selling their daughters.
The display of wealth and a higher status commands their ethics and not Buddhism now, which incidentally teaches to the contrary, to not to get attached to material things for one shall die and take nothing with them when they go.
sadly the japanese and then the americans introduction of open market short term buying of affection or otherwise known as prostitution, once took stronghold, the Thais forgot everything else about the spiritual and limited their outlook to greed and pomp and show and became just hungry for money individuals. surely people living in far out places and fit and working on a farm are self reliant and do not need to sell their daughters for money , but look for suitable matches who would love them , and not pay the highest prices. the amount of money is the real consideration and not how old the man is relative to the girl.
Now I am money hungry a lot , but then I am not Thai and would not do certain things for money or for anything.
and in conclusion, any self respecting parent will hang themselves than to sell their daughters.
But the modern farang has so forgotten their own history and want to live life to the full frequenting the bars and pubs for alcohol and sex and the ones who seem to fall in love are the ones , want to so badly believe to justify their love being real by believing in customs, which they would’nt dare to follow with their own daughters, or would they if they become truly corrupted too.
jack(Quote)
Oh dear I rarely ever seen such amount of ignorance in a single post before… so much that I could not avoid replying to this collection of ignorant bitterness (being bitten by a bar girl?)
But important things first: compliments to Peter for his really really amazing blog. And thanks to all the other readers posting intelligent comments (just ignore the couple of trolls and we all will be fine)
Now Mr Jack, I can see and somewhat understand why you come up with this distorted view of a foreign culture you totally fail to understand, but I cannot let that bunch of made up historic falsities pass by unanswered.
At first, blaming the Arabs… that itself is so stereotypical it doesn’t need an answer. Just trying to remind you that the Sin Sod tradition (as many other South Asia traditions) has nothing to do with middle-eastern culture, but comes from thousand of years of Chinese tradition. Are you not aware that Thai people moved where they are now from the south of China? And the Chinese had complex marriage rules long before there was even an Arabic civilization.
Oh, and then blaming Japanese and Americans for “inventing” the prostitution, now that is funny… why do you think that is called “the oldest profession in history”? Do you really think there were no prostitutes in Thailand before the USA even existed?
Very kind of you to accept there may be “a small percentage of Thais” who have any ethics. That makes them a lot better than most internet trolls (yes, the guys like you). Now I’m bored of talking about this “utter nonsense” so I’m off. Get a life.
Xiaoma(Quote)
Dear Jack,
I wish to thank you so much for your time and effort that it took for you to write you piece of “straight normal thinking”.
I’ve comming to thailand now for 10 years, learnt the language 7 years age learnt reading and writting Thai 5 years and now learning the Issan language. Met many Thai women. But the more I learn about their Thai mentality and thinking, it makes me think “hang-on a minute, I don’t want be apart of this stupidity”.
Fact 1: A Thai buddest marriage is NOT A LEGAL marriage, no matter if you pay no sinsot or 100 million US dollors. This type of marriage is not reconized under Thai law.
Fact 2: A Thai marrage at the District office is A LEGAL marriage and costs 60baht. This type of marriage is reconized under Thai law.
Thai culture is NOT the same as Thai law.
My girlfreinds parents want 300,000Baht sinsod and under their Thai culture they are surposed to ask the grooms parents for this money and not the groom. As I can’t speak Issan and Thai now, I’ve often asked some of the more sincere people here “Why do Thai ladies look for farangs when their are many rich Thai men here?” and their replies were “Their parents will not pay the sinsot if they are marrying down”.
I mother has refused and forbids me to pay, in fact she says that they should be paying you! – as she would be marrying up and have a chance to live in the west (even thought I have been honest and told my GF that London is paved with stone and not gold).
I would advise any farang whose Thai GF wants sinsod is to talk with their mother or a close female friend in the west first. Why? Because a western woman don’t think with their dick, because they don’t have one
Thanks again Jack and good luck.
Kind regards
Raymond
Raymond(Quote)
You’re partly correct; Thais generally marry the same class, but they do show/pay sinsod if they marry because it’s an integral part of the ceremony, certainly in Isaan, anyway. On occasion, if a girl has been married before, and has kids, the sinsod may not be appropriated.
However, the idea is NOT to marry someone poorer than yourself.It does happen though. My wife’s sister married a guy poorer than her, yet her Dad said it was fine if he loved and took good care of her. But yes, a girl from humble beginnings has little chance of marrying into a rich Thai family, and a girl who has already been married, has little education, kids and no money has little hope of finding a “decent” Thai guy to marry. This is the same in most Asian cultures.
For this reason the farang has become an anomaly. Relatively well educated, well off (some) foreign men marry women that most Thai men wouldn’t give the time of day due to class differences; thus the “stupid farang” stigma. Thai people can’t understand why foreigners want to marry down, essentially losing wealth rather than boosting it. They don’t consider love, soulmates, friends, spiritual kinship, etc, because rak gin mai dai, “love cannot eat”, as the famous saying goes.
It’s very difficult for foreigners to get their head around sin sod. To do so one has to understand it’s history and subsequent place in a class driven society where face is everything. To not pay sin sod when marrying your girlfriend is an insult to her and her family, essentially saying she is worthless. It doesn’t bode well for you either – entering her “moo baan” (local community). The fact that you refused to pay sinsod, or paid less than a poor Thai guy would, reflects badly on your girlfriend – her husband is branded “farang keenock” – people will gossip saying stuff like “why marry such a poor farang when she can simply marry a poor Thai”. Yes, I know, this is superficial bullcrap, but it’s how many people are. I personally don’t care what people think of me, however, when marrying someone, and marrying into a family, especially a different culture, one has to be a little unselfish and consider the feelings of others, and the impact one’s presence has on the marriage.
Another aspect of this is that the sin sod is often referred to by Thais as “the mother’s milk” – meaning compensation for the financial sacrifice to raise a daughter. For example, my GFs mother sold most of her land to put my GF through university. She has no pension, no huge savings, and so sin sod would give her some money to invest in a house or land to support her old age. The money isn’t always kept, and certainly doesn’t have to be. Very often in the modern day it is just shown, along with gold you buy for your wife. Her parents may not want to keep the money, depending on their financial situation. This is entirely down to what is decided between you, your gf and her family.
In the UK, where I am from, men spend 3000 pounds on an engagement ring, and then 1,500 pounds or so on a wedding ring. They spend 2000 pounds on a stag doo, and then 20,000 pounds on a wedding, then 4000 pounds on a honeymoon and this is just the average person. You can have a great wedding in a hotel in Thailand for 3000 pounds, add in the 300,000 Baht sin sod and you still spent 50% less than you would in the UK. Not to mention you are just a 50 quid flight away from many amazing honeymoon island destinations. People can say oh “you bought your wife” and other ignorant crap like that; but they don’t understand what sin sod is: At the end of the day most men will pay 20k plus for a wedding, and then pay through the teeth supporting the materialistic demands of a western woman their entire life, only to divorce and lose 50% of everything.
Cheers.
TheThailandLife(Quote)
You know very well that someone who is branded as a “farang keenok (shit farang)” or even a western homeless tramp has a higher status of a Thai as they don’t need visas to travel. Thais need visas and in most cases a guarantor for the UK for a reason. One reason is that the British goverment knows that they are likely going to rip-off the state. Why should us westerners take care of people who blow all their wages on booze and fags, when they could be paying into a pension fund? – yes all Thai banks can set up pension funds for Thais.
Their are some British couples who have a small do and a registery office marriage costing less than a couple of hundred quid. I’ve even known a couple to have their wedding reception on Clapham Common where all the guests brought ther own food and drink.
And nobody what so ever looked down on these people.
Once you learn and understand Sakdina, you will understand Thai culture and their mentality of thinking.
Fortunatly their are a small percentage of Thai who oppose the sinsot and Sakdina way of life and these are the women who you want to meet.
Raymond(Quote)
I understand sakdina and oppose it, but if you started talking about how sin sod is an evil perpetuation of sakdina that should be eliminated from Thai culture you’re likely to get some very blank looks. Thais just don’t see it like that. Every Thai person I know, if asked, will agree all people should be seen as equals, indeed this is the very cornerstone of Thai Buddhism. But then that’s not the reality people are living with and having to deal with daily, and not a point that warrants getting rid of an integral part of the wedding tradition. They’d probably just say, “why are you getting so serious about the wedding, it’s supposed to be a fun, happy time”.
…………
You suggest that it is hard for Thais to get a visa because the British government thinks they will rip off the state? That’s a huge generalisation and one I reject. There are hundreds of thousands, if not more Thais travelling to the UK every year to holiday and visit relatives with no problems at all. And the Thais that have settled in the UK are generally hardworking and doing well for themselves.
Those who struggle to get visas are those with a questionable status, i.e a bargirl with no savings travelling to the UK with a guy twice her age that she met after he took a 2-week holiday in LOS, which is understandable.
When I applied for a visa for my GF the first time it was refused, not because of her, but me! The British embassy said she was good to go, good job, savings and uni papers and great references. it was my lack of documentation holding up the process. They wanted to see my entire Thailand travel history in print, vis stamps etc.
In regards to pensions, I was referring to state pensions. Most elder rural folk are intimidated by banks and lack the education/knowledge to go in and arrange to pay in a pension, and most don’t (have never) earn enough to pay into one; they’ve lived a simple day-by-day existence their entire lives. Many do now have life insurance policies though, due to door knocking marketing initiatives by companies seeking new business.
Of course I take your point about British couples marrying on a very small budget, and or not caring for frills, and that’s great, but it’s not the norm these days, is it? And of course no one should judge or point a finger. But Thailand is such a place where people are put in boxes based on family name, education, wealth, whiteness of skin and other superficial rubbish (social point scoring, sakdina, etc). That doesn’t mean all Thais think that way, but this is how society has been and continues to be structured. The majority of Thai people want to elevate their face, or at the very least maintain their status in the community, and this is asserted through ceremonies such as marriage and death.
If you don’t want to be a part of it I completely understand that. I don’t either, and on a day to day basis I am not because I don’t judge others in that way. My wife is Thai. She displays a lot of Thainess. But she doesn’t look down on others and has a heart of gold, this is the reason I married her. You can marry a Thai and not have to fall into the sakdina system, thus the reason many foreigners and their Thai wives choose to leave and live elsewhere. But….
If you love your gf, and you want to spend the rest of your life with her, then I can’t see why, if you truly understand sin sod and what it represents to your wife’s family, you wouldn’t pay it, or at least just show the amount, which is about what an average Thai guy would show to marry an average girl. It doesn’t mean you have to support anyone in fags and booze post the wedding, or adjust your moral standards. It’s simply appropriating a marriage custom within the culture you intend to marry into.
Think of it like this: if something happens to you post the marriage, if that money is used to build a home, or invested in land, that will give something for your wife and child (possibly) to fall back on. You don’t just have to hand over the cash. Its up to you and your gf to discuss how it should be used and then talk with her parents. They may not even want it if they are already comfortable.
Thanks
I think you might find this book interesting if you haven’t read it already: http://www.amazon.com/rise-fall-Thai-absolute-monarchy/dp/187915532X
TheThailandLife(Quote)
What is wrong with you man.
You did not learn anything going around the world. Money hai tau honey hai.
She wants money, we all want it, but when you want something, it is never enough and we want more.
Now if she wanted your love, and that need grew , it would make your relationship stronger, but when her primary reason is money, you are silly to even try.
after 14 days of death, the tears stop, and after 40, people get on with normality in life and start eating and drinking as normal and after one year it is just a memory, and that applies when a loved one dies.
Do an experiment I am going to tell you to follow.
Go to thailand, find another woman and pay her to be with you, make sure she is really good looking and sexy, I guarantee it , you would forget this one, in no time.
People do not need money to love you, if they love you . Money is important in life very much, but if it is the basis of love , then it is never a permanent emotion. Hell , there are no guarantees if you had a love marriage or an arranged marriage, and here are the priorities in the correct order , if you have to make a choice.
1. YOUR HEALTH.
2. YOUR WEALTH.
3.YOUR WOMAN.
4.YOUR CHILDREN.
5.LIVING AMONGST YOUR OWN PEOPLE.
6. HAVING A STRONG POSITION IN A POLITCAL POSITION.
7. SATISFACTION THAT THERE IS NOTHING MORE LEFT AFTER ALL THIS TO HAVE OR WORTH HAVING.
What is means is when you have to choose, never give up a higher numbered priority for a lower no. one. If you end up being really lucky in life , and have all these things , then you know the gods are smiling on you, but very few people have this big a cake and can eat it.
You can take the girl out of the bar maybe , but you are not going to take the bar out of the girl. Get my meaning, What ever you do would be a temporary phase. and the longer you are in it, the more harder you will mourn.
Trust me, people eventually forget and get on with their lives with the death of their near and dear ones and try to replace them. This is nothing, that another girl cannot erase completely out of your head. You mark my words , if you follow my advise, there will come a time that you will think as to why the hell did you find her physically so attractive.
I am telling you , you mark my words. Even if you feel you cannot sleep in night, or you cannot breathe under the shower, because of this., all you need is the next one , who has the same physical qualities and the heart you will find is very easily detachable and reattachable.
there is no advise which is going to be any more truthful than this. So stop thinking about everything, follow my instructions, and find another girl from the same region who is more attractive and make friends with her. Hell make friends with a few at the same time, and see who fits you better and give yourself some choice in life. How many things of pain have you had and forgotten in life since your childhood. this is no different.
jack(Quote)
read my post for you below Roshe
jack(Quote)
thank you. for what it wrote it on here, so I just copy and post it on my facebook. sometimes i dont’ know how to explain it so, well, this is well fair, thank you.
warrissy(Quote)
No worries, but please do credit the website by providing a link back to the site from your Facebook page.
TheThailandLife(Quote)
Great to read this and understand more of the Thai ways of doing things.
I do hope Richard is OK now and sorted things out.
I have been living in Thailand for 18 months now. I have a girlfriend of course. We have spoken about marriage and sinsod has dominated the conversation each time. I am 42 and my girlfriend is 37. She did start university but had to leave after 2 years to work to support her father who was dying. After he died she had to work to help support her mother as all good Thai girls do. She had no childhood so to speak as her family are so poor she had to work even at a young age.
We have both agreed not to marry until we can comfortably afford to do so.
I am from the UK and told her my culture and the way we do things and she understands and I also understand her culture. So we are going to live together and not rush into marriage which is so easy to do.
Do not let the heart rule the head is something my late father always told me. I think this is very true.
I hope it works for us and we get married and live together until we die. I also hope you all read what has been written and not be so cynical about Thai culture as some are.
For every horror story I hear I hear many happy stories so perspective is needed when making a choice on which path you take.
Some of the things I hear it is obvious to me the farrang is being ripped off but offering advice is usually scorned at.
Just do what you all feel is right and learn from any mistakes but just do not rush into marriage.
If you both love each other you will stay together. If money is all it is about then when yours has run out then so will your wife/girlfriend.
expat Rob(Quote)
Solid advice Rob; sounds like you both have your feet firmly on the ground. Many foreigners find it hard to grasp how important the Sin Sod is to Thais, particularly in the rural provinces. It is largely superficial in that much of it is about keeping face. Sin Sod values are regularly trumped by one family to the next and are a talking point for most when a wedding is on the cards. It’s all pretty superficial and about keeping up with the neighbours, but then if it’s important to the woman you want to marry then you have to ride the wave: understand that she is following tradition to please her family.
I know of a family who has recently received a condo and a car for their daughter’s engagement to a fairly well off Thai guy – and that isn’t even the sin sod for marriage. So when i hear foreigners complaining that “it’s a scam” etc; my advice is always don’t marry a Thai woman then; a few grand means you’re getting off lightly, and if you really want to get scammed pay for a wedding in Europe or the US. The sin sod has a huge reflection on the family and the woman involved. It’s generally just about what’s shown on the day, along with the gold of course. But it’s up to you how much you negotiate to give as a gift.
TheThailandLife(Quote)
Good work!
I have a qustion. Is it normal that my girlfriend suggested to pay half of her Sin Sod? She told me that 900 000 Bath will be ok, and she will pay 450 000. She told me that after the wedding these money will be our for our future family.
trixus(Quote)
There is nothing abnormal about her wanting to contribute. It looks better for her family (face) if the Sin Sod is more, so it doesn’t surprise me that she wants to contribute. I think it’s a good idea to put the money away for your kids’ future. The amount is for you and her family to decide. As discussed above it really does depend on a number of factors, and not least how bothered the family is/isn’t about showing off to the neighbours!
TheThailandLife(Quote)
Hi, I have a discussion with my thai girfriend about sinsod. I have now understand that it’s very important for her and her family, a way for me to show respect to her and her family. I not agree with her but accept the fact.
Now to my question; Her parents has passed away long time ago and she was brought up by her grandmother. So she say the sinsod will go to her. I know her grandmother is very old and wounder if the amount of sinsod should be the same to grandmother like it should have been to her parents if they had been in life?
micke(Quote)
Hi Micke,
If her grandmother is very old I can’t see the point in you both giving her a large amount of money, considering that it will fall upon you both to care for her in her old age anyway (culturally). If her grandmother’s home is in need of repair, or there is medical treatment she needs, then of course the money could be used to make her life more comfortable. But if she is fine as is, I don’t see the point in stacking money in a bank account for her when it is likely to be inherited by your wife anyhow.
TheThailandLife(Quote)
Sorry, First time for me post in this web. I am Thai woman.
I working in automotive parts of company in management level, My educate is a bachelor’s degree . I was growht up from farm family.My earned 70,000 Baht /Month. And every the end of year get bonus about 4 times of my earn of month.
Now I met good man from England. We have relationship about 2 years Now we decide to get marry on the end of this year or the bigind of next year( Jan)
My parents said “sin sod will be as 499,999 Baht. ” then they will return 50% to us.
We will share “sinson” 50% . Some time I very worry about sin son I afraid my boyfriend think about sinsod because maybe he heard and read about this subject in website. Most thai woman and family want sinsod from forienger that marry with thai woman. Hope my boyfriend did not think more.
Please kindly advice me.
Educate woman(Quote)
Hi. Since your parents are returning 50% to you guys your BF will be paying 250,000 to your family. And since you have a very well paid job, if he is short of money then I’m sure you can contribute to help him out. If your boyfriend has read about the subject on this website then that’s a good thing because he will understand what Sinsod really is and the expectations around the culture. The amount you will be showing at the wedding is a fair reflection of your earning status, and coming from a farming background I understand that your parents will be excited to show off the achievements of their daughter to friends, family and locals, and of course, as we know, this is reflected by the Sinsod.
Foreigners must understand that in the modern day sinsod is no longer 50,000 or even 100,000 Baht, even in poorer areas. It is rare that a sinsod is under 200,000 Baht, and many Thai men borrow money to afford the amount. And so, if a foreigner is marrying a Thai woman, the sinsod amount is expected to be a little more because foreigners are perceived as being wealthier.
I am sure your boyfriend will be fine with this amount, and as I said, you have a good job so you can help him out if he doesn’t earn as much as you do.
I wish you both all the best.
TheThailandLife(Quote)
It is very good, many people understand the Thai culture… but, hat about the another culture, where the parents helping, where the “new” couple need every single penny to start a new life…
Lars(Quote)
I have the same situation…
Lars(Quote)
I don’t think this is clear cut and every situation is different. My GF sends money to her family occasionally, but it comes out of her salary and I have nothing to do with it. And she has said this will stop once we marry.
If your gf’s (wife) takes money from the SinSod then that money, if saved/spent wisely, will help them out over a few years if they have financial problems, I’m sure. But like I said, every situation is different, and it’s up to what you’re comfortable with. Personally I’m not comfortable with getting married and making salaried arrangements for the family. Not saying I wouldn’t help out , but I’d do all I could to encourage them to keep working and manage money efficiently.
TheThailandLife(Quote)
Thank you for clarifying the matter, especially regarding the tricky part where it may appear that the bride’s parents are not giving the issue may appear may seem as refusing it.
I find it laughable that Western men go berserk at the thought of paying Sin Sod in Thailand when they wouldn’t think twice about marrying under Western laws which would grant their wife the right to kick them out of their own house, to get half of their assets plus alimony and child support (with the treat of imprisonment if they don’t comply). Give me Sin Sod every day, man! I wonder what would these men do if their Thai girlfriend were to ask them to marry either under Thai customs or Western laws.
Also, it appears that these very same men like to cherry pick aspects of the Thai culture that suit them (e.g. Thai family values) whilst rejecting those values that don’t (e.g. Sin Sod). Methinks that if you are to embrace a different culture, you are to embrace it all, more so if your plans are to live in that culture.
Cheers.
Lele(Quote)
I totally agree Lele. You can’t cherry pick the bits you want; you’re either in or out. Unfortunately many guys don’t read up on the stuff that will come up down the road when they get involved with a Thai woman. Know the culture before you make a commitment.
TheThailandLife(Quote)
Fix:
“Thank you for clarifying the matter, especially regarding the tricky part where it may appear that the bride’s parents are not giving the issue may appear may seem as refusing it.”
should have been:
“Thank you for clarifying the matter, especially regarding the tricky part where it may appear that the bride’s parents are not giving the issue ***too much importance***.”
Since I’m writing this, I’ll add that my understanding is that – in Asian cultures – your “face” impacts the way people will treat you, hence “giving face” to your in-laws is of the outermost importance and it will come back to you as well.
I also think that “face” transcends cultures and is relevant in Western cultures, too, but Westerners are not aware of that, maybe because we have a different name for it (e.g. “being respectable”) and handle it in a different manner. The more I study Asian cultures, the more I can relate them to Western ones. Human nature doesn’t change.
Lele(Quote)
Hi TLL,
Your updated site looks simple, clean, easy to navigate – very good work! My comment is not really specific to Sin Sod, but the post brings a couple of things to mind again for me regarding cultural perceptions within Thailand that will probably be a little hard for me to emotionally accept if/when I come to Bangkok and if/when I become involved with a Thai woman, which may happen or may not. First is this. I am usually attracted to women of dark complexion with very dark/black hair. Don’t know why . . . but, this just seems to be my physical preference when it comes to women who are, in my eyes, extraordinarily beautiful. In Thailand, my preferred “look” seems to be indigenous and most prevalent with women from the northeastern/Isaan region. Unfortunately in Thailand, my preferred “look” also equates to the thai version of what some people here in the U.S. mean when using the term “white trash”, i.e., a very unattractive (either very fat, or extremely thin) woman with no education, no money, no manners and a loud cackling laugh! Too bad, because I am not poor, uneducated, or low-class, I just happen to dig dark-toned women. I know better than to ever “act-out” or lose my cool in public, but I can visualize myself being at least a little bit tweaked by some sharp internal emotional currents caused by passing snide looks, comments made just out of ear-shot, and the knowledge that “respectable thais” (with purses full of whitener cream), who I might have developed a friendship with would not appreciate her presence with me at any type of social/business affair because of the real loss of face for them and myself that would occur if I were to cross this cultural forbidden zone. . . .maybe you could clarify something for me. Would the loss of face caused by Westerner/Farang with a dark-skin toned woman who obviously has familial roots in Northeastern Thailand still be in effect and extend to a woman who was not a “bar girl”, or had never worked in a bar, but simply originated from Issan? I ask this question because my Thai language instructor from Bangkok (with whom I have lessons via Skype Video), is from the Isaan Region . . .she is dark, she is smart, she at least appears to be a very nice, punctual, well mannered and interesting woman. I don’t intend to ask her out by the way, she is at least 15 years younger than me and I don’t do the middle-age guy, young girl thing. She just came to mind as a good example of a cool female who happens to be dark skinned and whose family comes from Isaan. Another thing that always strikes me as being severely and sadly ironic with male dominated cultures, such as Thailand appears to be, is that nearly the entire weight of a family’s societal standing, brand, face , etc. . . whatever you want to call it (as well as the burden of maintaining economic security) rests on the shoulders of women. If she marries and bears a child with a young thai man (who subsequently dumps her) . . . she is then perceived as next to useless in thai society. More than a little bizzare and f**** up in my opinion. But, as you said, if you’re gonna come over here and live you must accept and embrace the culture. I do. And I look forward to it. (Please Note: I know very well that our western cultures carry their own heavy bag of dark, misguided perceptions.) . . . Thank you again for your exceptional blog. I don’t really know exactly how to describe its vibe, but, for me it doesn’t feel or read like a travelogue, or the usual ex-pat banter. There is something very street-level and real, yet intelligent, and useful about it. Keep up the good writing.
Brian
Brian Binns(Quote)
Hi Brian,
Thanks for your kind comments about the blog. Let me clear a few things up regarding Isaan, as I have a lot of experience with the region.
Firstly, not all Isaan women are dark-skinned; this is a strange myth and I’m unsure how it came about. My girlfriend was born in Kalasin, which is in Isaan. She is white-skinned compared with the large majority of Thais. This probably has a lot to do with strong Chinese genes coming through from generations back.
The darker Isaan-Thai people are usually from nearer the Cambodian border which is right down the bottom near Surin, Sisaket, etc. I have a friend with a GF from Korat who is very dark-skinned.
I lived in Samui for about a year, and you’ll find the women from the South are generally darker skinned than in other parts of Thailand. My best Thai friend is from Surratthani, and she is very dark, almost Malay looking. This is because, like Isaan has its roots in Laos, the Southern islands/mainland have links with Malaysia.
Secondly, not all Isaan people are poor; far from it. And many foreigners find they are looked down upon when they move to the region for being poorer than many of the locals; fact. Yes there are what we would class as poor people, but if I’m honest, the poverty I’ve encountered in the slums of Bangkok is worse than anything I’ve seen in Isaan. Many Isaan people are well educated. My GF’s degree is better than mine lol! And she’s wealthier on paper than I am. Isaan has many, many rich families. So much so that towns like my GF’s are attracting car garages from BMW and Ford now, at double the prices of the UK/US. Many live, work and make bank in Isaan, and couldn’t care less what foreigners think of the girls who work the bars of tourist districts. Moreover, most of the girls wouldn’t looked twice at an aging foreigner. They’re too busy dreaming of young Korean boy bands.
When it comes to Isaan girls and the bar; think about it like this. There are 65m people in Thailand, of which 25m are registered as living in the Isaan region. Historically Thailand has been a poor country, and Isaan is the poorest region in Thailand (by GDP), so therefore it is proportionately represented in that industry. However, don’t get it twisted, there are girls from all over Thailand working in that industry – many from Bangkok, lots from the North and Southern mainland, too.
Isaan is huge, just look at it on the map of Thailand. To say all Isaan people are one way or another would be pure ignorance. Yes, there are Isaan girls in bars, a lot of them. But there are millions more getting up every morning and doing 9-5s in good jobs in Bangkok and elsewhere – like your language teacher, no doubt. There is an estimated 1.7m people (men and women) involved in the sex industry in one way or another in Thailand. Let’s say 750,000-1m are from Isaan, that leaves you about 24m potential Isaan partners – depending on age of course
!
What do Thais think of people from Isaan?
Well, some do discriminate, yes, largely because education in the region has deliberately been socially engineered to create a low paid workforce that fuels the rest of the country – so lack of education creates the “stupid” stigma, as many Isaan people work in low paid jobs and are therefore looked down on.
Of course, as a foreigner with a girlfriend originally from Isaan I always assume that people will assume the worst of her. We laugh about it. And when people get to know my GF, see that she runs her own business, works 7-days a week, has never asked me for money, is independent as hell, and is a genuinely lovely person, they say, “she’s from Isaan, but she’s different”, in their own ignorant way.
I won’t lie though. The darker skinned your GF is here, as a foreigner, people will judged. Hostorically dark has meant poor because of the sun exposure from worker outside, and of course the lower classes not of the ruling Thai-Chinese ilk. However, its BS, Thailand has man, man rich darker skinned people. But sadly this is embedded in the culture. White is seen as superior. It isn’t nice but it’s prevalent. There are whitening clinics everywhere, whitening products on store shelves, and Thai women will often comment with each other on how dark/white they look today.
But SOME Thais, like any other culture, will pick and choose their favourites. They’ll discriminate against the everyday Isaaner, but when it comes to Isaan celebrities like Tony Jaa, Mum Jokmuuk, Buakaw Por Pramuk, Sek Loso, Paradorn Srichaphan and a heap of Luuk Kung (mixed) Thai actresses from Isaan they claim these people as famous, “good” Thais.
My advice to you would be the same as in any other country. Judge people as individuals. Don’t strip people of their humanity based on the wild generalisations or misguided perceptions of others. For example, if you fell for a beautiful native American Indian woman in the US, would you not date her because ignorant racists say they’re all lazy alcoholics and hookers? I didn’t know my GF was from Isaan when I met her. To be honest I don’t give a toss where a person is from; race and territories are just perceptions of the mind.
I hope this has helped a bit. Thanks!
TheThailandLife(Quote)
Excellent reply to the last post TTL
tipsthailand(Quote)
Thanks for the reply TLL,
Please note I just changed my identifying name for posting to your site to LA-TRADER (Brian Binns), your response represents why I like and continue to read your posts. It provided a much more detailed and in-depth description of life and perceptions in thailand. Since I have never been to thailand before, my information to this point has been gleaned from various blogs, books, etc. and most have been much broader, less detailed, and probably to a significant degree, cliche’d. Just to clarify a point. If I were to become involved with a thai woman, she would be close to my own age (52), and my decision to be with her or not, would have very little to do with other people’s attitudes. . . . And since this thread is about the practice and understanding/lack of understanding of Sin Sod, given the societal structure in thailand and lack of any kind of governmental social safety net it seems perfectly normal and acceptable to me.
LA-TRADER(Quote)
Thank you very much for this information, it is very nice to explain to foreiner who not understand Thai culture. I am very appreciate that you are respect to Thai culture and we are happy and welcome to allow Fa-rang to stay in Thailand if they respect and polite to Thai people. Now Many Fa-rang is Junk and do bad thing in Thailand.
Nongluck Ruensook(Quote)
I married my wife 2 years ago in her village. I agreed to pay 100,000baht sin sot. In return her family agreed to pay for the wedding. They used about 80% of the cash to pay for the wedding.
I had to show 75g of gold at the ceremony as well but we kept that. This is proper Thai tradition, parents of cash cows will probably try and keep the gold too.
On the wedding day we received many cash gifts that almost got to 100,000baht. Some were given to us and some were posted in a box at the entrance to the wedding. We kept the money given directly to us (tied onto our wrists) and let her parents keep the money in the box.
I think her parents had about 40,000B left at the end of things.
Seemed OK to me. I paid 100,000 and got back about 50,000B. If we got married in the UK that would probably pay for only the food or drinks at a small do. There were about 200 people at our wedding here and it was good fun.
Marek(Quote)
Hi Marek, thanks for sharing. It’s really useful if we can all share our experiences; that way other foreigners can get an insight of expectation/culture vs. rumour/speculation.
TheThailandLife(Quote)
I have been to Thailand 4 times for a total of 12 months. One thing I enjoy about Thailand is learning more and more about their culture. I have wondered about sin sot for years. This article does a great job of explaining many aspects of this custom. I must admit, at first I regarded sin sot as a negative, but now I understand better and would be much more agreeable to paying. Thanks very much for taking your time to explain.
Richard(Quote)
There is definitely a lot of misconceptions and understanding of the Sin Sod. But This article is definitely well written and gives a clear understanding.
thanks!
Chiang Mai House(Quote)
I met a Thai lady online a few months ago and we hit it off right away. She’s in her late 30′s. I really like her a lot. Anyway, out of the blue she sent me a package in the mail. It was Christmas gifts for my kids and I. I was stunned. 2 weeks ago her family invited me to her brothers engagement party.
Does it mean she really likes me too, or just being friendly? I have a good idea, but I want to ask someone who has a good understanding of Thai culture.
Thanks
Jerry(Quote)
@Jerry. Thai people are friendly by nature/culture, but when it comes to being invited as a single man by a single woman (whom you met online) to meet her family at such an occasion, I would say you’re next for an engagement party. In all seriousness, I guess it depends under what premise you met. Was it in a dating website on through a friend on Facebook, etc? I have a number of Thai female friends and I have been to a few of their family functions.However, we had already established a platonic understanding prior to those functions.
TheThailandLife(Quote)
Hi, there is a saying buyer beware,some thai girls treat kindness as weakness,I have had money stolen by previous thai girl friends as a lot of ferang have,the only thing to remember is that Thailand practises racism, IE a none thai cannot own land, is charged more for everything, things that are unacceptable in the uk are common practice here.But I would point out a human being is priceless no matter what there social standing and if you love a Thai girl and want her, give what you can regardless of her education or how many times she has been married or how many children she has,because one day your adopted family may take care of you in your old age,something that is not likely to happen very often in the uk. sin sod may be the best investment you can make. jing jing.
elwyn powell(Quote)
I married a Thai women in 2007. She was divorce from a Thai and had a young daughter. I met her in Thailand on vacation and after coming back to the U.S. asked her to marry me. The bargaining of sinsod began immediately. She wanted at first 200K and I said no way. We finally agreed on 100K and off I went back to the LOS after applying for the fiance visa. While in Thailand I got cold feet after waiting for us to have the Thai wedding and show the money and I left her village. She followed and found me and begged for at least the 100K so she would not lose face. I told her it was only about money with us and that is not what I wanted in a Thai wife. She hounded me and eventually I gave in and went back to her village to finish it. To make a long story short, I took her back to USA where we were OK for 8 months then she said her mom was sick and had to go take care of daughter. I let her go back for an emergency but she lost her status of visa and I had to reapply. While she was over there she became very hard to contact by phone and highly defensive on the phone. I had a feeling she had went back to her boyfriend or found one. I managed to get her and daughter back on a visa and within 8 days confirmed she had a Thai boyfriend through her constant calls on Vonage. She claimed it was uncle, brother or cousin and demanded a divorce, all of my money, and a trip back to the LOS. I gave her 2 out of the three. She was only in country 8 days. I continuously sent money to support her family while marred for less than 2 years also. She was a complete liar and it was always about the money. She is back and tried to email and call stating she was wrong and wanted another chance. My guess is that she could not find a sucker like me with more money. Never again will I trust another Thai woman. I have tried to date a few more but they were more mysterious than the Bermuda Triangle with always another Brother or cousin in the background they favored. I am now happily married with a Filipina. They are not as mysterious, understand and can converse in the English language, serious about marriage, and will love you till death if you treat them right. Thailand is the LOS or as I view it, Land of Scams.
ron brooks(Quote)
Why would you marry a woman on holiday who instantly started bargaining for money and begged you to marry for money? She was clearly a desperate woman with a dependent to support and limited marriage options, and therefore being an opportunist. I appreciate you had a bad experience, but let’s face it, this was largely down to your stupidity. You can’t cast aspersion on a whole female race based on your one personal experience. I married my GF after 4 years of being together. Before making the plunge we went through all the normal hoops and hurdles of a normal relationship, as I would have done with any other girl in any other country before considering marriage. We got to know each other inside so that we could both be sure the relationship was based on trust and respect. All my close friends in Thailand have a similar experience with their GFs/wives.
TheThailandLife(Quote)
Cracks me up all these farangs who say stuff like “I’m not paying sin sod” “it’s bull**it” “it’s a scam” “It’s made up”. If you understood a word of Thai you’d see on TV every day well-known Thai people getting married and announcing the sin sod. Hell, today Dak Bongot married for 100m Baht, not including the rings and gold. And these stingy farangs are moaning about paying a few hundred thousand Baht. It’s part and parcel of Thai culture. Don’t like it. Go home.
Geoff C(Quote)
A few hundred thousand Baht is a lot of money to most of us. Sinsod is a concept we don’t understand and this thread is very useful. Using language like “stingy farangs” doesn’t really help move things on.
I realise we should accept Thai customs – but does that mean we forget ours?
Pravin(Quote)
I agree Pravin, but I also take Geoff’s point that foreigners should really consider this custom before getting involved in a serious relationship with a Thai woman. For the majority of women and their families this is an integral part of the ceremony, and it’s meaning reflects so much more than just the money itself. I don’t necessary support this custom personally, but it’s part of a culture I decided to live amongst. For this reason I have opened my mind, done extensive research and done my best to understand a tradition that is interwoven into the fabric of society. It surprises me that so many farangs are themselves surprised by sin sod, and taken aback by its existence. Sin sod appropriates and reflects the class system, which as anyone who lives here knows, is part and parcel of Thai life.
TheThailandLife(Quote)
Nice piece of information regarding Sin Sod.
But it is writen by a foreigner out of respect to the Thai customs. However the Thai would never ever consider the customs and respects of the counterpart. In Western society it is most definately rude to ask for money from someone to marry your daughter, it is (to be equally rude) just plain selling of human flesh. Hence the big issue of the Sin Sod when Foreigners and Thai (have plans to) marry.
My Sri Lankan friend (who was very willing to pay sin sod) joked that in his culture the family of the girl were supposed to pay the family of the man. His Thai parents in law were not amused at all didn’t believe him and sufficive to say he is now the black sheep of the family as he dared to say something like this. How narrowminded of the Thai!
Fluminis(Quote)
Hi Fluminis,
This information isn’t written out of respect for Thai customs, but rather researched and written by interviewing three Thai people in order to obtain a thorough understanding of sin sod.
Why wouldn’t a Thai “ever consider the customs and respects of the counterpart”? Many do. My friend is about to marry a Thai girl and no sin sod is involved; they aren’t even having a proper ceremony. They are both free spirited, hippy types, so to speak. The girl is very strong willed and doesn’t care what the neighbors will say, and the parents are cool with this.
It is important to understand sind sod, and also to understand that the upholding of tradition varies from family to family. Even if you’re marrying into a rich Thai family you will, in most instances, still need to appropriate sin sod, even if the family contributes towards the wedding, which many do. And this is what foreigners get so very wrong about the custom. There is no selling of “human flesh” as you put it, and it doesn’t solely apply to poor girls marrying foreigners. The tradition is still upheld by the majority.
Your friend should explain to the family that this was a joke; often these things get misconstrued in translation. I often make similar jokes with my in-laws. I am, after all, from a country where the tradition is for the bride’s family to pay the wedding costs.
TheThailandLife(Quote)
Fantastic Long time doing research about and i just find a Big Light in the End of a Tunnel.
wonderful Information
thanks a Lot …… I ll be the next to get married
fabio(Quote)
TheThailandLife(Quote)
Hallo again!
I like to share some experience of the last 15 month. However, coming out with this is not easy but I hope it helps other people to make their right choices.
Here it goes: I meet my wife in December 2011. I felt truly in love with her and her family. We got married (Thai Ceremony) earl March 2012. After getting all the legal documents we got married legally in late July 2012. In mid December 2013 my wife told me she married me only because of money and left me. Since this time she is with another guy (the old boyfriend ?) and she actually left her family and son. Disappeared. Only her friends know…
Of course there is a lot of the story missing. Like some construction for the house, the furniture, the purchase of the land, the money for the company registration, the car etc. etc.
For many of you nothing new.
Maybe surprising, but I did not marry my wife for sex nor did I ever cheat on her or lied to her.
Whatever I did, I did it in good faith and for a happy family life.
However, I truly believe in marriage and I did all I can for my wife and her family.
I did not know anything about scam in Thailand and I could never imagine that all this exists what I read about it today, +7 mil Bath later.
I found out later that I was not the 1st guy that felt for the scam. She ripped of an Indian guy some years before. Of course the entire family knew about the real intentions of my wife. Of course I don’t speak Thai and I would have never thought this is possible (that they set up a marriage etc. etc.) and it’s all about money.
From a technical point of few: My life became extremely difficult after my wife left me as I need a divorce in court. And of course good advice is very expensive (Lawyer etc.).
From an emotional point of few: no comment
My advice:
• learn the language
• take your time for each and every step you take
• learn about the culture, read the crazy stories…..
• take advice (also legal) (put in on paper before you get married, before you buy a house/land etc.)
• don’t trust only your feelings, don’t fall for the “she does not ask me for money”
Different culture, different background:
If you believe in the instution of marriage, it will be your own desire to do all you can for your wife and her family. Her happines is your desire and your permanent reason to create realites and spend money for anything you believe is important for your happy family life.
I guess I did all the thing wrong you possibly can do wrong….
However. There are many wonderful and honest woman in Thailand and for sure Thailand will is a fantastic country and it will experience an incredible development over the next few years.
Yelmo
Yelmo(Quote)
Hi Yelmo,
Sorry to hear this terrible story. Thanks for sharing and offering your advice. As you said, not all Thai women, or all women of any other country for that matter, are scammers, and it’s commendable that you still remain positive about Thailand despite your ordeal. I wish you all the best for the future, and hope you find a wonderful woman second time around.
TheThailandLife(Quote)