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Thai Price vs Farang Price: Historical Hangover or Modern-Day Discrimination

Dual pricing (Thai price and farang price) has long been a subject of contention among the expat community.

While most holiday makers probably don't realise a dual economy exists, even though they may pay up to a third more than a Thai would on many items in tourist area, the large majority of expats grumble at paying more for goods and services than locals.

And this is totally understandable. I mean, once you’ve lived in a country for five or so years, you’d expect to be treated like a local, right?

dual-pricing-in-thailand

Multiple (dual) pricing evolved from the barter economy. (Image Credit: Samuel John Roberts @ Flikr)

It isn’t just street stalls and local shops that operate a dual economy, either. Many museums and national heritage sites stipulate dual pricing on entry, which is never usually more than a hundred Baht’s difference, but enough of a difference to make one feel discriminated against.

However, the reality is that outside of the tourist hotspots, purchases from local markets are generally priced the same, unless you know the owner personally. But when it comes to museums, heritage sites and other attractions, foreigners are usually expected to pay more.

But before we spout off about Thais being racist and how unfair it is, it is important to understand why a dual economy exists, and how it is potentially beneficial to some Thais — even though we might lose out at times.

A Sprinkle of Historical Context

The first mistake Western critics tend to make is to compare the evolution of Thailand's economy side-by-side with that of the UK or US, for example.

Thailand's capitalist economy as it exists today is very immature, and is often referred to as a pseudo-capitalist economy that presents itself as such but operates quite differently in many pockets of the country.

In fact, many of the older generation still alive today will have grown up in a rural barter-type economy. Indeed, my wife's grandmother did.

She still talks of swapping goods in her childhood and people lending their skills to each other in exchange for food and household essentials.

Only one hundred odd years ago the majority of the male population in Siam (Thailand) was in the service of court officials, while their wives and daughters may have traded on a small scale in local markets. And only at the end of World War 2 did Thailand's economy truly begin to become globalised.

Also consider that Thailand has not experienced the immigration and subsequent “multi-culturalism” that Europe and the US has. In comparison, Thailand has very few foreigners, and trade laws and the buying of land and housing is still very restrictive for foreign nationals.

Thais still very much do things the “Thai way”, and in the way they see fit.

And yes, for many this means ‘preference pricing', which, by the way, is not restricted to foreigners. I for one get my fruit cheaper than other local Thais because I am friends with the seller. This is a friendship built over around five years. That's how things still work here. Communities are very much localised, even in a big city like Bangkok.

Money Vs. Feelings

The fact that the difference between the “Thai price” and the “farang price” is usually quite small — certainly for entry to heritage sites and museums — suggests the grumbling is more about feelings that money.

This is understandable. It is a feeling of being discriminated against, a feeling that no matter how long we’ve been in the country we will always be treated as, and identified as, foreigners (“farang”).

On the face of it, this differential treatment is prejudice, and I’ve even heard some liken it to 50s America and the preferential treatment of whites over blacks. But the reality is it’s nothing like that at all.

The dual economy is born out of simple economics. Nothing more.  If you believe that the elimination of dual pricing would promote integration, and give expats more “status” as citizens of the country, you’re living in a alt-left dreamworld.

This might sound harsh, but if you think you’ll ever be anything more than a “farang” to most Thai people then you should go home now to avoid further disappointment.

In the same way immigrants are just immigrants to most in your home country, to the average earning Thai, you are just another farang with a fat wallet that allows him/her to live a privileged lifestyle in a poor country.

Thailand is a great place to live, but you and I know we’re never going to be considered citizens of the country in any way, even if we went through the hideously long process of obtaining residency.

Thailand is historically very insular. This has promoted a unity of deep national pride, patriotism and self-identification with flag and country. Anyone outside of that will always be “a farang”.

I point to the words of the Thai national anthem: The land of Thailand belongs to all the Thais, Their sovereignty has always long endured.

No matter how well I understand Thai, no matter how long I’ve had a Thai partner, no matter that my child is half-Thai and no matter how many Thai friends I have, I am, and always will be, a farang. And this is a classification I accept as part of being a foreigner living in a foreign country.

I can’t roll up to Doi Suthep temple in Chiang Mai and say, “Can I pay the Thai price to get in because my wife is Thai?” Or, “Can I pay the Thai price because I’ve poured countless pounds into the Thai economy over the last seven years”. No, because I am not Thai.

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An Ethical But Contentious Reason for the “Thai Price”

The reality is that dual pricing has evolved with Thailand; its existence is a natural one that evolved from the market/bartering culture — as it has done in numerous Asian and Middle-Eastern countries. Friends, family and regulars tend to pay less. It's quite simple.

The same is true in some countries of Europe. Ever been to Italy? Go to the market with a local and I guarantee you will get that handbag much, much cheaper! See Greece for reference too.

Where entry to attractions and heritage sites is concerned, it has to be considered that the pricing is based on economics and not prejudice. The average wage is less than 10,000 Baht a month, and most Thais are earning little more than 300-400 Baht a day.

So, let's say I want to take my wife and daughter to a museum on the weekend, and an average earning Thai guy wants to take his family too. If I earn 150,000 Baht a month, and he earns 15,000 Baht, and the entry fee is 300 Baht for adults, he needs to spend more than a day's wages for an outing that every father can easily afford for his family.

In short, I don't mind if his and his wife's entry is subsidised by the government and that they only pay 100 Baht each to get in.

Who would have a problem with that?

Who would have a problem with paying a little more than someone else because they earn 10x more, if it meant their family could enjoy the same social outing?

If I am asked to pay more than the average Thai for entry to certain places because I earn more then I don't mind — if that little bit more is kept at a reasonable ratio.

I am privileged to be able to afford to live here and consistently enjoy myself in nice hotels and swim in the waters of beautiful beaches, and to visit amazing temples and see wonderful landscapes.

The majority of Thais will never be able to take such a holiday in a foreign land. In fact, the majority of Thais have never visited the beautiful islands and wonderful corners of their own country.

So I don’t mind that I pay 100 Baht more for entry to a museum, or 50 Baht more for a t-shirt at the market by the beach.

As a resident (I don’t have official residency) I am privileged to live in a nice apartment, and to be able to afford to eat in lovely restaurants and enjoy all the city has to offer. Again, way above and beyond the means of the average Thai person.

When I say the average Thai, I am referring to the 17 million Thais who earn under ten thousand Baht per month, most of whom, according to a recent bank survey, are in debt to the tune of an average of 150,000 Baht; debt that continues to grow at between 6-20% depending on the mood of the debtor’s loan shark.

Even the lowest paid expat jobs in Thailand massively outweigh the average Thai wage; so should we continue to grumble and begrudge those with very low salaries access to museums and local attractions at a discounted rate?

When we complain how unfair it is that a dual economy exists, we should think for a moment: do we want museums and places of cultural interest to solely be accessible to foreigners and middle/upper class Thais by there being one price for all?

Are we happy to stop the kids of an average earning Thai family going to the places we like to visit just because we feel discriminated against?

Or do we want it the other way around, where everyone pays the “Thai price”. That way, we, along with the Thai middle and upper classes, get to clasp even tighter onto our purse strings, a solution which would no doubt contribute to lowering the wages of those working for state-run museums, national parks and other places of interest.

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But What About Foreigners Who Earn Low Wages & Rich Thais Who Get Thai Price?

The big problem with the above is that there are lots of well-off Thai people who get the Thai price when they can clearly afford to pay more than the average foreigner.

But then we can’t dismiss 17 million other people on that basis, can we?

So there has to be a better way.

In a country with such huge inequality, there are sectors of society who do need a discounted rate on goods and service.

Most families can't even afford a trip to the cinema, or a take-away pizza.  There is no social welfare system to speak of — no food stamps, no child benefit. Though there is a good 30-Baht health scheme.

It is also problematic for those foreign nationals who earn very little too. I was shocked to see that some of the agencies on my job board were offering such low wages to Filipino teachers. They too, like most Thais, would struggle to live on such wages in Thailand.

So that begs the question: Could this whole dual pricing thing be solved with a simple card scheme?

For example: If you earn under x, you get a card that entitles you to y at a discounted rate. y being entry to national parks, museums and other places of entertainment run by private companies that could sign up to the scheme too.

Thoughts Going Forward…

I have never bought into the notion that dual pricing is a prejudicial war on foreigners. It is something that has been evolved and become outdated. In rural communities and market trading circles it has historical roots in the barter economy — as it does in many other countries.

Things have levelled out somewhat over the past few years, though, and vendors often make a point of telling customers (Thais included) that it's “same price” for all.

But where market shopping in tourist areas is concerned, a deal can usually be struck outside of the given price on most things. And would we want that aspect of tiered pricing to disappear? Many tourists enjoy this aspect of holidaying in Thailand.

In the immediate term, if you live in Thailand and want to avoid paying more than the locals, you should definitely  learn to speak Thai so that you can engage with sellers in their native language.

By making a little effort to learn the language, you’ll be able to bridge the gap and integrate more with the local community. You’ll be able to strike up a conversation and ask for “Laka con Thai” (Thai price).

Think how you feel about foreigners who don't bother to learn the language in your home country. If you live in Thailand but speak no Thai, how can you expect to be perceived as anything else other than “just another foreigner” enjoying the fruits of the country but with no interest in learning the language?

Back to the main point of disgruntlement though: Prices have been creeping up for foreigners over the past few years, with entry to some historical sites at least 2-3 times the Thai price. This has to stop; simply because it creates ill-feeling, and because not all foreigners earn 2-3 times that of the average earning Thai.

I suggest that the authorities get rid of dual pricing and look at creating a scheme where access to museums, national heritage sites, local attractions and some other goods and services are provided cheaper to those below a certain income threshold.

This will enable poorer families, both Thai and foreign, to have more freedom; to take the kids out to events and activities on the weekend.

It would also enable poorer families to save more money. And who knows, one day they may be able to start a pension, send the kids to university, or at the very least enjoy a holiday to the beach in their own country, or a trip to the cinema once in a while.

Updated: September 2017.

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  1. I don’t live in LOS but considered buying a Pattaya Condo awhile back. Glad I did not. Pattaya has changed and after 36 years of coming and going, it’s officially “not a big deal” anymore. I have noticed how prices have raised over the years and now it’s too much. This farang will go elsewhere when he looks where to go with his vacation money. With the Chinese and Indians filling the streets now, they can take my place....glad I didn’t buy that condo.
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  2. I'm curious about the statement that most things can be got for less than the advertised price if you bargain. Not only have I noticed virtually no variability in prices for various goods/services between vendors, but even having walked away from many at the stated price, not once have I had a lower price offered. Is this a recent phenomenon, due to regulations perhaps? If there are 10 vendors selling a service at, say, 2500BHT, and there's obviously low demand (low season), it seems odd not a single one will offer even a very small discount - even 100BHT less and they'd have my business, just on the basis they're showing an effort to distinguish themselves from the others...
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    • I've seen this frequently at tourist markets. My impression is that it's just too much of a pain to have to negotiate with everybody that walks up. I've also seen it with commodity type things like veggies and fruits but they're so cheap anyway. In a "regular" market or small shop discounts are pretty easy to come by if you're buying multiples.But... If you find a vendor you like: somebody that's friendly, isn't trying to dump junk on you, and isn't trying to take you for everything you've got, then buy something and keep buying there. The market economy is all about relationships and if you look at it as more than just a price thing then they will too. You'll find extra things showing up in your bag. Maybe rounding down the price for you. Maybe better quality or special fruits and veggies saved just for you.If you want the vendors to distinguish themselves, remember, it's a two way street and they're waiting for you to distinguish yourself too.
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  3. "Dual pricing" is the soft, pc term. The correct term is 'pricing discrimination'. It's rampant and it's wrong. Even TAT admitted to me that this wretched practice is illegal. Will they lift a finger to eliminate it? No way, mainly because it gives Thais the 'upper hand'.
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    • Nonsense. This is practiced the world over. While it may be factually illegal - and I doubt that given that the government is a practitioner - it is, globally speaking, a way for vendors to take advantage of systemic ignorance. It's why I paid over US$2,000 less than my friend for essentially the same car (essentially because I got some extras thrown in as well as the discount). It's why I can call up Amazon and tell them their price is too high and end up with a better deal than I started with.In most places - be it farang price or gringo price or haole price or gaijin price or tourist price or sale price - the cards are stacked against people who either don't know how to work the system or don't try to learn. I got taken in a taxi scheme in France one time, and then learned the system.It happens in Thailand, it happens in the US, it happens everywhere. It leaves people who get "taken" feeling miserable, and turns people who have learned how to work the system - like myself - into smug, preachy, A$$es! :)
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        • Why did you jump straight to murder? Seems a bit like the "eat your peas, people are starving in Ireland" argument foisted upon innocent children. The two, farang pricing vs. murder or eating peas vs. starvation, have nothing to do with each other.The argument comes down to are you somebody who expects others to guarantee your right to a fair price or are you willing to accept responsibility for getting what you feel is a fair price?I'm of the latter group and (luckily) have never felt like I got screwed over by a vendor and have never paid more than I felt was fair. I've also walked away from things I might have wanted to buy because the sellers felt they were able to get their price from some other target, er, custiomer.I have said (elsewhere in this thread) that I have no problem paying more for cultural and park fees. My extra 100 baht or whatever is the price I pay for not having to pay taxes in Thailand and doesn't make me feel discriminated against in the slightest. (I'm also aware of the many free things the Thai government funds that I'm more than happy to take advantage of.)I'm not apologizing for the system, it is the way the whole world works outside of the nanny-state residue of failed empires. Thriving within that system is just a matter of whether you're too weak-kneed to stand up for your own principles, or not.
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          • Well James, discrimination is just plain wrong. And here in Thailand it is also illegal. Like pink marshmellows, some just soak up the insult; I don't. I've made my point. No need for me to say any more.Except ...................Today I went to a waterfall. Thai entry was 20 baht. 'Aliens' was 120 baht. We had a friendly and polite discussion in Thai about 'discrimination'. 15 minutes later I was at the base of the waterfall no having paid the discriminatory 120 baht or even the 20 baht. THEY LET ME IN FOR FREE. Point made.
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            • Ron,That's exactly what I'm talking about! Knowing the system and even trying to work within it (making the effort to learn Thai at a minimum) allows you to show that you're in the game with them, not against them. I've had similar experiences (although I've also been chased down by a park ranger on a motorcycle to cough up the extra 100) with extra things dropped into my bag by a vendor or a free treat at a street food cart. It's your attitude about the system and your demeanor in discussions/negotiations/general interactions.And I do beg to differ on the underlying assumption that discrimination is illegal in Thailand. While enshrined in the constitution (Section 27 of the 2017 edition) the non-discrimination clause is buffered by the word "unjust". This means 1) that discrimination is okay as long as it's not prejudicial and 2) forces the burden of proof onto the person who feels discriminated against. It also doesn't specify anything beyond the rights granted in the constitution and applies specifically "to the Thai People" (Title, Chapter III). So, under the law, we are fair game.
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  4. What about foreign owned businesses in Thailand that think it's their duty to charge foreigners a price consistent with a site in their own country? A specific example would be the aquarium in Siam Paragon. When I first visited Thailand I was truly a young impoverished youth barely scraping enough together for a trip. I don't mind paying at temples where I am going to look and not worship. I don't even mind paying at national parks, even though the cost of visiting a national park in Thailand costs more than one in Canada. It's places that look at the colour of my skin and double the price. It's the secret coding used. When a site uses old style Buddhist numbers for the Thai price and regular numerals for the foreigner price it tells me they themselves know it's wrong. Grocery stores that put a foreigner price tag on the top of the item and coded local price tag on the bottom also know what they're doing. When a guy selling ice cream blatantly charges me double what my partner pays simply because I'm white (and tells me so), I simply travel elsewhere. The whole experience of being treated as a bank machine when I was young and poor compels to go other places now that I am older and gainfully employed and I know many other Canadians that feel the same way. Surely this affects the overall economy
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    • “secret coding”? You mean the local language. You say you are young and poor, but still rich enough to buy a ticket, not work for an extended period of time, and travel. Visiting local places this does not happen, in tourist areas it doess. Think about supply and demand on the island for example all things are more expensive, now they could raise the price on items to be level, but that would break the bank on all the workers in the service industry there.
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  5. I call your attention to the current constitution (2016) section 27 paragraph 3:"Unjust discrimination against a person on the grounds of differences in origin, race, language, sex, age, disability, physical or health condition, personal status, economic and social standing, religious belief, education, or political view which is not contrary to the provisions of the Constitution, or on any other grounds shall not be permitted."National parks are a federal concern and last week I saw the following pricing in regards entering Doi Inthanon national park:Thai 50 baht Foreigner 300 baht (Thai licence not accepted) Car 30 bahtThat meant that our car with 3 farang and 1 Thai cost 980 baht or $40 AUD. Australia's most expensive national park is $29 per vehicle per day... what went wrong, Australia is a much wealthier country?I now draw your attention to a more locally managed venue. The temples in Chiang Mai and Doi Suthep. In this case I could use my Thai licence to gain free entry where the fee was 30 or 40 baht for foreign.Your argument about the old school using barter and hence dual pricing doesn't wash in these examples.
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    • Hey Brad, it's not an argument that seeks to justify it, but rather given some historical context to show how things have evolved - thus the suggestion of "hangover" in the title. But even so, this refers more so to local community market trading and not the example that you give of Doi Inthanon.I agree with you; this could be challenged (legally) under the constitution. But I'm sure they would just say that it isn't discriminatory; it's just that Thai people have privileged entry in their own country.
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      • Your article is spot on in one regard. Namely that Thai's are immature with business - at least in a modern free market sense.On the other hand I disagree that giving the poor more money will nesasarily give them a leg up. Trouble is they squander any windfall and don't generally plan much past their next meal. They require better fiscal maturity not just more money.
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        • I agree on that. I think the broken welfare system in the UK is testament to that. But rather than giving money, making it cheaper for low-income families to get into national parks, museums, local attractions, etc., is beneficial for their children and makes for a more inclusive community.
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        • All of the listed conditions for non-discrimination can be interpreted to apply to Thai citizens only as there is no indication otherwise. The "or on any other grounds" might be interpreted as "and stuff we haven't thought of yet".The way I look at it is like this: When I fly into Thailand I am usually allowed to walk right in. Stamp-stamp, without even a glance from customs. If I were Thai, and tried to enter the US like that, I'd be detained, questioned and deported. To get in legally I would have to apply for a tourist visa (US$160), go for an interview, and be able to prove I will need to leave the country. That is discrimination.So, do I mind - as a non-Thai taxpayer - shelling out a few baht more while somebody who pays taxes there slides in for less (national parks) or free (Grand Palace)? Nope. I don't see that as discrimination any more than I consider a tourist tax applied to a hotel room or attraction elsewhere in the world as discrimination. It's a fee or tax or whatever to help pay for the construction and maintenance of public facilities that I will use, but haven't paid for with my taxes. (Yeah, and all the corruption and kickbacks to the local government but don't let me get started on that...)As for farang pricing out in the commercial world, that's just part of the game and if the hapless tourist wanders up with that deer-in-the-headlights-look then they should just consider the result as Lesson 1.
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          • James E. I only point out the seeming contradiction - the governments contraction not mine. The PM pushes through a new constitution with section 27, while at the same time ramping up price disparity and no longer Thai licence gets Thai price. As far as I understand Thai people alone cannot be of different race and origin.But... it does say "...unjust discrimination...", so perhaps the discrimination on pricing is indeed "just".Thoughts?
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            • Brad,Thai people are of many different ethnic origins but were brought together by the force of arms (in the post-Ayutthya era) and became Thai with a shared mythology and language. It is indeed possible for a farang to become Thai but I seem to remember something about it being easier to get a camel through the eye of a needle... The driver's license thing has always been problematic as it is not considered an ID that proves anything. To be Thai you need an ID card and passport. Sometimes the DL thing works, sometimes it doesn't. But if you had a DL and fluent Thai I bet you'd get into a lot more places than with either one alone.The constitution (as proposed), as most constitutions do, lays out the rights and responsibilities of participants in Thai society, This is by-and-large the rights of citizens, not visitors, and like most constitutions stays away from commercial concerns and sticks with matters of rights, law and how the government is structured and managed.Somebody from out of the country might be willing to try and get the rights extended to them but I don't think that case would get very far.The pricing thing is not really - IMO, anyway, discrimination. It's the difference between being a tax-paying citizen and a non-tax-paying foreigner. I realize that some foreigners are also paying taxes if they're there under a Visa and working or getting income from investing and then the price differential for government facilities could be considered unfair. But nobody ever guaranteed life was supposed to be fair.As far as commercial price discrimination, that's just part of the game. You either play it well and get good prices and meet some great people, or you play it poorly and go away empty-handed, grumbling, and leaving a whole lot of people with some fun stories to tell at lunch.
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              • James, perhaps the constitution applies to Thai's only. But I don't think they have any trouble applying penal code laws to both Thai and farang. I don't think I have diplomatic immunity. 555No, I don't pay income tax in Thailand, Australia has a tax treaty with Thailand, and so my income and income tax is handled in Australia. However, I do pay Thai VAT so technically I pay tax in Thailand.I also think that Thailand does well out of expats. If I'm bringing in, say 50,000 baht a month, that's like free money for Thailand. I didn't cost Thailand a satang in medical or education expenses. One guy doesn't do much but multiply by hundreds of thousands of expats.For these reasons I am a believer in countries with good immigration intakes, even if that means relative easy of being an expat.
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                • Brad,I agree with you about how it should be, but we, as guests wherever we go, have to learn how things are done wherever we are and adapt. I have never lived anywhere where my not being local didn't place a target on my wallet. I have also not lived anywhere where, once I learned the local rules and at least made an effort to follow them, that I wasn't accepted and treated with respect. My take on the dual pricing dilemma is just go with it, and be prepared to play the game.
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          • Of course Thais are questioned in detail before being allowed into the USA. Thais are citizens of a 3rd world country who want to enter the US, where the streets are paved with gold- and very probably never leave. Whereas US citizens are more likely to enter Thailand as tourists, spend money, have a good time and then leave that corrupt den of iniquity.
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    • That's strange. My Filipino friend doesn't get the Thai entry price to national parks etc. My friend and his Chinese girlfriend came to visit a while back and she didn't get the "Thai price" either. You have to have a Thai ID card.
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  8. You appear to be under the assumption that all foreigners earn considerably more money than the average Thai. This is a foolish and easily refuted assumption.While different measures rank countries slightly differently, a quick glance at the HDI places Thailand 87 out of 188 countries. There are many countries with a much lower level of income than Thailand. And even in comparatively wealthy countries, income inequality exists. There are people in my country (Canada) who make about the same monthly amount as a middle class Thai. I'm one of them. Why should I have to pay so much more than a Thai who earns the same amount as me?
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  9. I have read some guff in my time but this takes the biscuit. Talk about fawning, grovelling claptrap!This system of "dual pricing" which has official backing is nothing more than divisive and racist. I can understand a street hawker, snack seller, or market stall holder charging (or attempting to charge) a Westerner more than a Thai - that's all part of the game. Especially in Asia. But where the dual pricing has official approval, e.g. entry to National Parks, that really sticks in the craw. Foreigners who live in Thailand, or who have retired there and, above all, are living in the country legally, should NOT have to pay a penny more than a Thai person.All that bullcrap about earning 10x more than a Thai person and therefore expecting to pay more for goods and services than a Thai person, is simply that...bullcrap.I fully support people like Richard above, who refuse to support this perniciously evil system.
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  10. I have been told my Thai driving licence will get me " The Thai price" to enter certain venues but i refuse to enter anywhere commercial that has a dual pricing policy.You may be able to afford to pay farang price, not all farangs living here earn lots of money, teachers for example.
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    • What venues in particular? I haven't come across dual pricing for anything other than a few cultural sites in recent years. Strangely, if I am with my daughter they usually let me in for the Thai national price too.
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      • National parks too.But your article really nails it. It is our obligation as outsiders to fit into the Thai culture. It's not their obligation to bend the rules for us. You did neglect to mention that wealthier Thais also pre-pay their Thai price to historical venues, parks, and museums by paying taxes. Something we farang try to avoid to the point of standing in line at Suvarnabhumi for a quarter-hour to get our 200 baht VAT refund. Screw that.As visitors - even if you're lucky enough to live in Thailand - support the freaking economy. Learn to speak Thai - even a little. Talk to the vendors in the market and go back to visit the ones who are accepting of your linguistic incompetence. The others will notice and try harder. Pretty soon you won't just be that striped-shirt, backpack-swinging, insanely-loud farang but you'll be that very nice striped-shirt, backpack-swinging, insanely-loud farang.
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        • I speak, read and write Thai. What does that have to do with discriminatory pricing? Shall we punish young Thai girls or boys in England or America because they look a certain way or carry a certain passport? Take care that we don't start. According to your logic, we damn well should.
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          • It has absolutely nothing to do with discriminatory pricing. What it does have to do with is accepting that the culture you are in (Thai) is not the one you are from and it is up to us as visitors in that culture to 1) make an effort to understand it and 2) help to pay to support it. If I go to a cultural site - the Grand Palace for instance - where I have to pay something while the busload of Thai college students gets in free, then that - IMO - is not a bad thing. I'm not paying into the Thai treasury to support the country so why shouldn't I get a bigger bill to help support the things I want to do.
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        • Absolute tosh. I do NOT live in Thailand, thank the Lord, but I have visited the place a few times. Why on earth should I learn one word of their language? If Thais want to talk to me - or me with them - then they can jolly well speak English. A language spoken by most civilized, educated people the world over. What percentage of the world's population speak Thai, compared to those who speak English?And as for "fitting into the Thai culture.." words fail me. Why would any God-fearing Westerner want to do that?
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          • I'm in stitches. It's like reading an extract from the diary of a British general from the 1800s, during the days of the empire."I landed in Siam and saw lots of little brown people. They spoke a strange language and did ghastly things like sitting on the floor when they ate. We quickly began to civilize them by teaching them to speak English, making them drink tea and beating them with sticks".Great trolling!
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            • You are a Grade One (offensive word removed), TheThailandLife, or whatever inane name you call yourself.You ought to wake up and face reality. I'm not sure quite where you get off with your stupid, offensive comments, but the fact remains that you are not playing with a full deck.Of course the white man was put on this planet to educate, to civilize, the heathens. If only the Thai people had been subjected to the enlightenment which was brought to Asia by the white man from the 18th century onwards, whether said white man be British, Dutch, Portuguese, French or whatever, the country would not be the corrupt cesspit which it is now.I understand that the Thais like to gloat that they have never been subject to Western colonialism. It would have been to their great advantage if they HAD been subject to....in the 19th century..
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              • My God, you are actually serious. Read that back: "Of course the white man was put on this planet to educate, to civilize, the heathens."Do you even know where the first alphabet was developed? The first languages? The first educational institutions?What type of "white man" are you referring to?Seriously though, cut out the eugenics movement crap and stop insulting people. First warning issued as per the website terms.
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        • Your fawning, grovelling drivel cuts no ice with me, pal. The whole concept of dual-pricing is racist, divisive and downright wrong. The Thais will have to be dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century to understand this simple fact.
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  11. I have visited Thailand several times, but never lived there as an expat. What interests me about this discussion is that I did live for several years in Sri Lanka. They also have a radical duel pricing system. It is not just for admission to museums and historical sites. When you are handed an English menu in a restaurant or look at the posted prices at a hotel, you are paying 50% or 2X more for the same service. As a long time Buddhist I was really upset at being charged large fees to enter Buddhist temples which were free for locals. I usually pointed out that since Buddha was an Indian he would have to also pay this. They looked embarrassed but still charged me. My point in making this apparently irrelevant comment is that this was usually justified by "Colonialism". Aren't Thais proud of being the one Asian country never colonized? Then what is left except greed or racism?
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    • A very good point. Where local heritage sites and amenities are concerned, in a country like Thailand with a huge rich/poor divide, I don't think it is unreasonable that a very low income family should have free or subsidized access while tourists and those on middle-high incomes pay a fee. I understand that means testing is problematic, but these places need to generate an income to maintain a staff and upkeep. In Thailand I would suggest to the government that low income families are given cards that enable them access to places for free or a considerable discount so that their families may too enjoy the same things that mine does. I am of course against extortionate pricing for foreigners only, and certainly in places like restaurants.I love this: "I usually pointed out that since Buddha was an Indian he would have to also pay this"
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      • That's a great idea, not only for Thailand but for all nations. Native citizens at the poverty line or below get ids granting them free admission, all citizens of that nation get charged reasonable entrance fees, and foreign visitors/non-citizen residents pay 10 times +. I'm going to recommend it to the Ministry of Commerce as soon as I return home. Cheers and thanks again for the great contribution.
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  13. So here I am sitting outside the frost in Pattaya whilst my wife and daughter are inside. Their price 300 baht , mine 650. I refused to pay it and will always refuse to pay. I work and live here, earn my money here and pay my taxes here. Even upon production of a work permit it's still 'pay foreigner price'. So they have lost my money and I'll always refuse to pay it. If this happened in the West then I'd be furious of my country..
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  14. "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet" is a good quote here.. Call it what you want, apply whatever excuses you'd like. It's still a discriminatory practice, regardless of whatever excuse is used, excuses are like butts, everyone has one, and they all stink. But honestly, if it bothers someone, they should just not spend their money there and move along to somewhere else. Very simple fix...
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  15. Poppy Cock! The prices frequently exceed 100 Baht. You are wrong on your facts. They can be up to 1000% or more. Do this to a Thai in your country and you'll find yourself sued out of existence. You know absolutely nothing!And your explanation has so many holes -- you could fly a 747 through them. First, why do other Asian people (notably Filipinos, Khmer, Chinese etc. etc.) get the Thai price? The answer: a white face. It is racist in enforcement. Second, While I would agree that a government-subsidized company would have the right to offer tax-payers a discount, how does this apply to private enterprises? And Chinese owned amusement parks etc.? Third, many of the privately owned venues will not give the Thai price to resident taxpayers of white extraction.You've taken the stupid pill -- poor Thais. Poor Thais. They have a larger economy than Norway.
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    • I don't agree with recent price hikes at heritage sites and national parks, but my main focus of the post is local economy. To which you said: First, why do other Asian people (notably Filipinos, Khmer, Chinese etc. etc.) get the Thai price? The answer: a white face. It is racist in enforcement. This is incorrect. Chinese tourists do not get the Thai price, believe me. But I do get the Thai price at many places. In fact, the lady at my local fruit stall gives me a cheaper price than Thais she doesn't know, or know that well. In fact, on a number of occasions she has delayed telling me the price in front of the thai person, choosing to serve me after instead because she doesn't want to pee them off. This is the old barter style economy, or dual pricing as foreigners call it. I know her personally. I buy every week. I speak to her in Thai. I chat with other members of her family. She gives me free fruit for my daughter. This is how it works in Thailand. Build your bridges.I'm not "poor Thais. Poor Thais". I've been here long enough to know the dynamics of Thai society. I read and study Thai history and culture as a hobby. If you've read the post you'll note that I point out that it's very difficult to make a fair system that is adjusted to low-income people because it can be exploited by richer, middle-class Thais who will expect to pay the same.Admittedly the title of the post is provocative -- it's meant to be as a way to open the debate. But if you read the post you'll see there is a balanced argument for both sides.
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      • Sometimes I really think I need to disable these e-mail alerts - at least for this particular subject, as its been done to death. After all, if I don’t see the alerts then I wont be tempted to let myself get dragged back into beating this dead horse. And that’s just what I was about to do again. Well, actually I was going to give someone a verbal ass kicking. But then I got to thinking: if these people are so determined to hang on to their petty anger and bitterness, then who are we to try and rob them of this. After all, anger and bitterness are all some people have to hang onto in life. And if they did not have these imaginary injustices to rage against they seriously would not know what to do with themselves. I think the rest of us should just be thankful that we are laid back enough to not sweat the small stuff, and secure enough in ourselves to not constantly see racism where none exist. And lets face it, going through life being so uptight (like you know who) can be incredibly stressful and it really doesn't make for much of a life.
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        • To Ken: Because you didn't respond meaningfully, I can't say much. Go ahead, give me your 'verbal ass-kicking.' If folks were treated this way in Western countries, there would be hell to pay. Full stop. And thank you so much for allowing me to hang on to my imaginary injustices. Keep taking your stupid pills, Ken. When they toss you out of your window one day, those pills will come in handy.
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      • To Ken and The Thailand Life,Thank you. I never expected a response.To Thailand Life: First, I did read your entire post. All of it. And I read it before I posted. Your economic argument was not convincing and you were wrong on your facts. Primarily, there is often a difference of far beyond 100 Baht. If it were 10 Baht, then the economic concept of rational ignorance would kick in and nobody would really care, would they? I went to Siam City Park not too long ago. The park is largely Chinese-owned. The Thai price was 300 odd Baht. The Foreigner price was 1,100 Baht. In line before me were two Filipina gals and I was with my girlfriend from Laos. The girls in front of us were speaking loudly in their native language but -- as I observed -- got the Thai price upon speaking a bit of accented Thai. My girlfriend (from Laos) got the 'Thai' price but they insisted I pay the 'foreign' price. I politely refused and told my girlfriend to go in without me. Then the girl at the counter said, "คุณอยู่นานแล้ว" and directed me to another window where my foreign girlfriend paid the 'Thai' price ticket for me. But that was an underhanded, face-saving way of going about it.Our experiences are different, that's all. I find that the dual pricing system is racially biased.
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  16. Does this blog post include situations at official gov't offices like immigration where foreigners (particularly western foreigners) are expected to simply pay an express fee to get regular documentation done (e.g. retirement or marriage extensions of stay)? It goes beyond principle here, as now you are dealing with something you HAVE to do to legally stay in the country (register a vehicle, etc).A foreigner in this case feels 'trapped' in this case. Especially if they have invested >2 million in some home or other things. It seems like these fees are priced just high enough for the official to get something out of it, but just low enough for the majority or foreigners (or a good portion) to just say f**k it, pay and get on with their lives.or is there a separate blog for that (e.g. corruption)?
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      • Chiang Mai seems to be particularly disgusting in how they are implementing a rather limiting schedule policy....some 20 extension applications max per day, some people queuing up from 3-4AM. For a routine extension? Oh, but if I have 3k baht, there is an instant slot open. See here.One couple I know now is dealing with this in Chumphon shortly after a new boss took over. They had the same paperwork as last 5 times (years), but now they made them wait like 45 days or so (they came in 30 days early, and then put a 30 day consideration stamp).They were offered an express option for 3000 baht, but they refused. And of course front/back copies were no longer accepted, so they had to recopy a lot of things on separate pages.Previously, it was a 15-20 minutes to walk in, process the extension, and go. No further 'consideration' is needed for retirement extension as the local immigration office can process it. Marriage extensions are processed in Bangkok with very few exceptions. ------I don't mind if there is an express option. The keyword is OPTION. But people who have the correct paperwork (not arbitrary rules paperwork) and just want regular service should just be able to pay the regular fee without any additional hassles.
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        • This is unacceptable, and strange that they are treating people in this way. It's hardly a way to encourage people to move to choose Thailand as a long term stay or for retirement. If there's an angle to make money, someone will do it. But like you say, this shouldn't affect standard applications. This is also happening at the VFS Global visa centre that serves UK/AUD/CA visas. They have introduced fast-track services that effectively push applications to the front of the queue and push standard applications to the back of the queue.
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      • He has never encountered anything. He's a [insulting word removed] who thinks defending the poor Thais (because of his wrong version of economic history) means that ripping the rest of us off is all good. I've been here since 1997. Spare me the [swear word removed], mate.
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        • Hi David, I have removed the insulting comment and swear word from your comment. Please refer to the terms of the site regarding insulting behaviour. I respect your right to an opinion and as I have always done on TTL encourage healthy debate, so please respect that of others and refrain from insults.Please also consider the following from the terms:My thoughts and opinions naturally change with time. I consider this a necessary consequence of remaining open-minded. In light of this, any thoughts and opinions expressed within dated posts may not hold the same, nor even similar, opinions to those I may hold today.I’m a human, and this blog reflects that fact. By this I mean that while the ideas, thoughts and information are often valuable and the product of my first-hand experiences, the writing itself may be spontaneous, un-proofed, unrevised and corrected only when necessary to address mistakes that grossly affect the intent.Thank you for your co-operation.
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        • If you don't want dual pricing stay away from typical tourist areas in Thailand or go to shops with price tags like Robertson,Lotus Tesco etc Though I have noticed that most of the time there is no double pricing at the local markets especially when you speak Thai . Often the foreigner gets a better price than Thai people like getting a hotel room I always get a better room price than my Thai girl friends how is that possible ?Even my current Thai wife for 4 years she never got a beter room price than me and non of the other Thai girls I traveled with.( they didn't mark up either the price lol.) Foreigners should learn to speak and listen Thai than you will find out it isn't that bad it always help to say I want discount ( pom tong can lot) often you will get a beter price than the local Thai person because Thai people love foreigners who try to speak Thai there for they are willing to give you a bit discount . Concerning the double pricing of the national parks I have to say that is bad for the imagine of Thailand . Often the sales person of the tickets feels very uncomfortable about it if you point out the price difference its a bit loosing face . Because they don't expect you to read the pricing in Thai numbers . 1.Don't start to write the Thai price in Thai numbers it gives many people a bad taste in the mouth 2.If Thai people visit the national parks with their BMW's ,Mercedes and Ducati motor bikes from outer state they have to pay the same price as a foreigner . (easy to check look at the number plates ) Those Thai people have more money to spend than the foreigner backpacker who travels around on a shoe string budget ! I could live with this solution . But remember you do have a choice you don't have to go there if you think its unfair or outrages expensive etc.. Keep in mind Thailand is a beautiful country and there is no need to go to those national parks with their double pricing . There are a lot of foreigners who do pay a lot of tax in Thailand why should they get a different pricing ?
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  17. Actually I completely agree that it's just Basic economics and I don't mind paying a bit more than Thais even after being here for 15 years.My issue lies with extremely inflated rates . Example Khao Yai , last time I was there Thai 35 baht. Foreigner 350 baht that's not a small increase thats 10 times or 1000%. Even though 350 baht is still not a large amount of money .The second fact that does iritate me Is that they are not transparent about their price differences as they write the Thai price in Thai number characters that they presume we can't read. That in my opinion is deceitful if you wish to charge more by all means do so but be transparent about doing so .
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  18. More than a bit surprised to drive across Ubon province last weekend for some nature hiking with the family at Soie Sawan waterfall of Pha Taem National Park. Thai price 40/20THB (adult/kids), Foreigner 400/200 --1,400THB for our family. We turned around and left. I haven't minded the two-price system but this small attraction is nowhere near worth it. I have to imagine that most falang who have hired transport to get out to these remote sites feel stuck to pay it.
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    • That's a big difference when you have a family and certainly unacceptable. I've not come across this in rural areas very much. For example, I visited the dinosaur museum in Kalasin and it was free for me and the Thai people I was with. Such a great place too. Really interesting models and information. I hope we aren't going to see a trend of places hiking prices in the way you experienced.
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    • I have to admit that price seems pretty outrageous to me as well. But is it really? In my own experience I have found that tourist attractions in Thailand are generally priced based on what we would expect to pay back home in our own countries for similar attractions rather than what we would expect to pay in Thailand. And here in the USA it would cost you $30 (1100 Baht) to get your family into Yosemite or Yellowstone National Park. Of course this price is per vehicle so if you only have one other person in your car then you are obviously paying quite a bit more per person than if you have 4 or 5 other people in the car.I think what makes this particular fee seem so outrageously high however is the huge disparity between the Thai price and the Foreign price (which is not how you should be looking at it). After all based on our respective economies I would normally expect the Thai price to only be about 3 times less expensive and not ten. But perhaps the government just wants to make sure that even its very poorest citizens can enjoy the natural wonders of their own country. And in any case I never think of the prices in terms of how much cheaper they are for the locals. I only think in terms of how expensive it is for me personally. In fact, I prefer to think of it in terms of how much I’m saving due to the fact that my Thai girlfriend can get in cheaper. After all, in your own country when your kids tickets to some venue are cheaper than your own you do not get angry because you have to pay more for yourself than for them, but rather you are happy that you can pay less for them. It’s all in the way you look at it.Still, you might possibly be right about the foreign prices being jacked-up in these places because they know people will feel they have no choice but to pay an exorbitant price after traveling all that way to get there. But then again, this is pretty much standard practice in every country on the planet. For example, the snacks and drinks in movie theaters here cost about 3-times more than they would cost outside of the theater because they know you have no choice but to pay. And if you take your family to Hurricane Harbor Water Park here in California you will first have to pay $20 for parking, then $40 for each adult and $30 for each child to get in. And then once inside you will have to pay nearly $20 for a locker to keep your valuables safe. When you add in the outrageous cost of food in the park you will probably end up paying at least $250 for the day. What a rip-off!And of course not all attractions in Thailand seem to be cheaper for Thais. I remember the last time I went to Chiang Mai to visit my girlfriend’s parents we borrowed her sister’s motorbike and rode up into the mountains to do some hiking. Then on the way back to town she wanted to stop by the Tiger Kingdom because, like me, she is a huge cat lover. Anyway it seems to me that I had to pay the same price for her although I’m not entirely sure. Then after leaving there we saw a gun range and I thought it might be fun to teach her how to shoot a handgun. Unfortunately we both thought the prices were WAY too expensive. In fact, it’s 3 to 4 times more expensive to rent a gun and shoot off a hundred 9mm rounds in Thailand than it is to do so here in the USA. And I never saw any Thai pricing and the attendants never mentioned a cheaper price for Thais even though they new I only wanted my Thai girlfriend to shoot (I had my own 9mm back home so I didn’t need the practice). It was probably for the best anyway because the guns looked like they had not been cleaned in ages and I’m not sure how safe they would have been.Anyway, as I have said in the past, I think the main reason dual pricing irritates some Westerners is because it reminds them of the fact that they will NEVER be considered to be natives no matter how long they live in Thailand. If you live in a country like Thailand or Japan you are always going to be a Farang or a Gaijin even if you’ve been there for 30 years. In other words you are still just a visitor and will never be one of them. And lets face it when you are from one of the most powerful nations on earth and you are used to strutting around like you own the world it can be hard to accept the fact that you are now merely a second class citizen at best (sorry if it sounds like I am disparaging my fellow countrymen). But I for one am perfectly okay with this.Sure, this stuff used to bother me when I was younger. For example it really irked me at first that to rent an apartment in Tokyo I had to first find a Japanese person to be my guarantor (to take financial responsibility for me should I cause any trouble or run out on my rent). Luckily my company was willing to be my guarantor though because I would really not be at all comfortable asking a Japanese friend to do that for me. And this all seemed particularly unnecessary considering the fact that in Tokyo at the time you were required to pay the equivalent of two month rent in key money and another two month for a security deposit, plus first and last months rent - a total of six times the monthly rent to move in. Plus you had to pay $500 for a phone line and you had to buy all your own appliances and furniture.And then there was the fact that very few landlords would even rent to foreigners to begin with. When you go to the real estate office they will show you fact sheets on various apartments and on the back of each sheet there are three sets of “yes” or “no” check boxes which the property owner has checked off. The first one is for pets, the second for children, and the third for foreigners. And believe it or not both children and pets are both much more likely to be allowed than foreigners. “How can this be?” I thought to myself at the time. How can a cat or a dog be a better tenant than me? After all, I’m completely toilet trained and I don’t have any sharp claws to scratch up the floors or walls.In any case, I stopped being bothered by these kinds of things a long time ago. When you move to a foreign country you cannot expect them to change themselves just to suit you, but rather you must adapt yourself to your new environment.
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      • That's a good additional point, regarding how cheap it is for your GF/wife to get into an attraction. Even though I might have to pay more, my wife and daughter will pay the Thai price so the price as a whole is massively cheaper than going out in the UK. I was in the UK recently and took 5 people out for coffee. Three people had a cake as well. It came to 1000 Baht! We didn't even see any good attractions, just some nice plants. A day out at a theme park or exhibition, including travel and food, is going to be a solid 100-150 quid!I think it does jar most people at being "the foreigner" all the time. Being singled out as the foreign guy, regardless of how long you have been in Thailand and the extended family you have adopted, is a bit of an insult that most find hard to swallow. That said, one commenter above said that all you need is a Thai driving license to get around this price difference, so perhaps that's the way forward. The prices will keep creeping up no doubt, and new tourists will keep paying them, I guess.
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        • Yes, I also read the comments about getting the Thai price by having a Thai driver license and I found this very interesting. After all, if true, this would mean that the discount is based solely on residency and not simply on race or citizenship as I had previously thought. And as I mention before this is exactly how it works in Hawaii - which is why I got my Hawaii driver license the day after I arrived there. Of course in Hawaii the discount applies to hotels, restaurants, and many, many other kinds of businesses, and not only to government run operations, like museums and national parks.Anyway, in the past I have never come across dual pricing often enough to really make it worth my while to run out and get a Thai driver license. If I end up retiring there however I will certainly be getting my Thai driver license and will try to take advantage of those discounts.Of course, I am personally bothered much more by overpricing in general than I am by dual pricing. For example when I was last in Phuket the beach chair rental price was twice what it was in Pattaya at the time. And this difference can really add up to a lot if you and your girlfriend are going to the beach nearly every day (as much as 4000 Baht extra a month). But I can’t blame the vendors for this. They are simply setting prices based on what they know the typical Phuket tourist is willing to pay.As for the UK I have never been there myself but I understand that living in London is just as expensive these days as living in San Francisco or New York City – two places that I could never even begin to afford to live.
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      • No, it is NOT a simple solution. It is a bandaid solution to a problem which needs major surgery. Why is it a bandaid solution? (a) we are not told that the production of a Thai driving licence in order to secure Thai entry fees is an "official" policy; (b) even if it was an official policy, I would bet it would be left up to the attraction management - or even the person in-charge of the attraction or the cash point, to implement it. If that person did not want to implement the policy they would simply ignore it; and (c) such a policy does not address the issue of visitors to Thailand, (or Westerners who live in the country), who cannot produce a Thai driving licence. In the case of the latter, nobody has shown me, or convinced me, that any other proof of residence in Thailand will secure payment of the Thai price.No "thethailandlife." have the cojones (which is not an expletive) to call this practice for what it is. Racist, venal bull you-know-what. A means for an avaricious section of society to exploit people on the basis of their race and the colour of their skin.And please, spare us the sanctimonious claptrap about "my dear, sweet, little old lady from whom I buy my fruit charges me less than she even charges Thai people because I kiss her..... Or "I don't mind paying 10 or even a 100 times what a Thai family have to pay if it means that a poor Thai family get to visit an attraction which they could otherwise not afford." Or "I read, write and speak Thai," (yeah, sure you do) and "I read about Thai culture and history," (yawn, yawn).We are not interested in such twaddle.I repeat; call this insidious, divisive, venal, racist practice for what it is.
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    • You just reminded me of the fact that we have something very similar to Thai dual-pricing right here in the good old USA - namely in Hawaii. In Hawaii they have what is known as “Kama Aina” pricing. Basically this means that Hawaii residents can get discounts on various services and products such as hotels, restaurants, etc. And all you have to do is show your Hawaii driver’s license to get the lower price. And this of course is not “racist” in any way because, just as in Thailand, the discount has nothing to do with ones race but rather has to do with who is a resident and who is not (or a citizen in the case of Thailand). So basically visitors to Hawaii pay a higher price for some goods and services than locals do.
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        • "I've never come across this express fee when doing an extension. Where is this happening? Any info would be useful."Why would it be useful? Useful to who? You? Don't make me laugh. Just what, pray tell, would YOU be able to do about this practice - assuming it is true?Oh, and the word is spelt "dinosaur" btw. Invest in a good dictionary.
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          • You are quick to point out a typo but seemingly lack the intelligence to put forth your points without aggression and insult.If you read the post in full you'll see that I don't say I agree with dual pricing in principle but rather seek to broaden the debate beyond the simplistic, common narrative that it is simply "racist".I can only assume that because you don't understand the dynamics of Thai society and its social constructs that you are unable to digest my points and debate sensibly with an open mind.You might also take a moment to consider my disclaimer:My thoughts and opinions naturally change with time. I consider this a necessary consequence of remaining open-minded. In light of this, any thoughts and opinions expressed within dated posts may not hold the same, nor even similar, opinions to those I may hold today.Bear in mind that this post was written over 7 years ago; a lot has changed in Thailand and in my experience since then.I understand that many people become infuriated by the title, so much so that they don't bother to read the full content of the post – which is a shame.I accept that it is clickbait to a degree; obviously I did this on purpose at the time and it attracted a lot of views because of that. But those who do read it in its entirety tend to appreciate it for what it is: a post that opens up a debate beyond the usual black and white opinion – whether they agree or not.I appreciate you taking the time to post your comments, and I encourage people to share their views if they disagree with me. But I won't tolerate abusive, profane or rude comments that don't bring any value to the subject matter. Second warning issued.
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  20. It's racism, it's backwards, it's greedy and it's discriminatory. No wonder Thailand is poor. Because who would invest big money in a country where the system is bias in favor of the locals and discriminates against foreigners.They do the same thing in China and Hong Kong and probably other countries.I'll never get over it and never be happy with it.Thailand will never be a wealthy country.
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    • Thailand is no way poor compared to other surrounding countries. Dual pricing is quite common in Asian countries, and it's certainly here to stay. It's part of the system, and it's the norm. Generally speaking, Thailand does actively discriminate against foreigners both in daily life and in legislation, and that is how it is. As a result, they don't inherit many of the problems of the west, and foreigners are tightly controlled in every aspect of life in Thailand. That saying, it hasn't stopped tourists from coming to the Kingdom. Next year (2017) an estimated figure of between 25-30 million tourists will visit Thailand, one of the highest in the region.
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  21. Dude , you are forgetting a very important fact:Its a economical thing you say, poor people have to pay less, and rich people have to pay a lot more??? what about the wealthy Thai people With big fancy car and everything, that can walk right into the Thai line and pay 1/3 of the price too, while I, a low income retired farang have to pay 3 time as much . Get real dude . it is pure and simple racism. And it pisses me of in a a degree , that I prefer to spend my retirement somewhere else. PERIOD.
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    • I can’t believe that this silly debate is still going on. I swear I haven’t heard this much whining and complaining over such an absurdly trivial matter since I was a kindergarten teacher. But here we go again I guess.I suppose I could start off by getting into the psychology behind why certain types of people get so insanely upset over dual pricing in Thailand and even mistakenly think of it as “racist” in nature. But I’m afraid this would only serve to piss off half of the readers and bore the other half to tears. So instead I’ll just concentrate on the policy itself and these most recent comments.The first misconception that we need to put to bed once and for all is this silly notion that dual pricing is somehow racist. The fact of the matter is the practice does not meet any known definition of the word “racism”. And this should be so painfully obvious to any intelligent, rational person that I am not even going to waste my time trying to explain it here. After all, if some guy tries to tell me that a cat is in fact a dog, or that the earth is really only 4000 years old, I’m not going to waste my time and energy arguing the point with him. Because to do so would just leave me flustered and stressed out and would accomplish nothing in the end. You simply cannot reason with an irrational person so there is really no point in even trying.So, dual pricing is most definitely NOT racist. But what about being discriminatory? This one might not be so open and shut, but lets see.The definition of “discrimination” reads as follows: “The unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people or things, especially on the grounds of race, age, or sex”. So what does this mean exactly? Does it suggest that perhaps car insurance companies are discriminating against certain people by charging different rates? After all, I can be charged more for being a certain age or sex, for living in certain cities or certain parts of cities, or even for being poor. So, even if I am the safest driver on the face of the planet I am still being judged based on my group. This certainly doesn’t seem fair at all, but is it really discriminatory?Of course not! Insurance companies do not have a crystal ball which tells them how good a driver I am so in order to stay profitable they have to play the odds. And this means that I have to pay rates that are in part based on the collective driving habits and abilities of my group. This may be inadvertently somewhat prejudicial but it is certainly not “unjust” seeing as how it is necessary.By the way, the Thai government also does not have a crystal ball, and charging people based on their individual incomes would be a bit absurd. Can you imagine standing in line a museum waiting for each person to have his net worth determined somehow? It doesn’t take long at all to determine who is Thai and who is not though. And foreigners belong to a group that, on the whole, is vastly more wealthy than Thais are.Anyway lets look at another scenario. Let’s say that I decide to start charging visitors to my house a small fee to use my home phone or to use the restroom. This would definitely make me a major league tightwad and a very weird guy. But would I be discriminating against my guest by charging them simply because they are not members of my household? Of course not! After all, I would have nothing against these people and I would not think I was somehow superior to them. I would just think that, as guest in my house, they should pay for what they use. And let’s face it we are ALL merely guests in Thailand and can never be citizens.So, if dual pricing is discriminatory then one could also make the argument that even being required to have a work visa to work in Thailand is discriminatory. Certain things are always going to be required of you as a visitor to a country that are not required of natural born citizens of that country. That’s just the way it is and there is no point crying about it or in developing such a persecution complex that you somehow think you are being discriminated against or are the victim of racism.And just what are we talking about here anyway in terms of expenses? I spent over a year in Thailand all told and the total amount of extra money I had to spend during that time on dual pricing was exactly 160 baht. Now for me to get all bent out of shape over such a small amount I would have to have a fairly large stick crammed pretty far up my ass, don’t you think?Anyway, I simply look on those extra expenses the same way that I do the fees I pay to renew my visas. In other words, they are just the normal expenses of being a guest in someone else's country.
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      • I just thought I should point out that my comments are never meant to put anybody down in any way. I sometimes use very colorful expressions when debating a point but its all meant in a very lighthearted way and this is actually the same way I talk when sitting down and debating an issue with a bunch of friends. We might call each other “crazy” or “full of it” at times but its all meant in good fun and nobody gets upset. When writing however one has to be very careful because, as nobody can see your facial expressions or hear your vocal inflection, it very easy for things to be taken the wrong way.
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        • No Ken -- You write endlessly to defend a principle that is indefensible. In America -- where I presume you are from due to your [INSULT REMOVED, WARNING ISSUED), is it acceptable to one nationality more than another?IT IS A YES-OR-NO question, Ken.
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      • Great points Ken, and my sentiments exactly. The reality is that it hardly affects any of us (in the pocket) at all. Sure, it is fundamentally flawed in that while the working class benefit from low prices and upkeep is maintained by foreign folk paying more, the rich Thais still pay the same rate as lower income people, but by definition it isn't racist. No one set this up as an intentionally racist policy. If that is the case, then the entire monetary system is racist; which as we know it isn't, it has just been manipulated into being elitist and prejudice in many ways. And this is a casing point: There are far more important social causes to get upset about and debate for change than paying an extra 50-100 Baht to see a tourist attraction in Thailand. If we put some of this energy into protecting vulnerable children and women, and protecting the planet we live on from human destruction, we may actually changed the world for the better. But instead we sit here worrying about losing some of the spare change in our pockets to an overpriced temple entry fee in Northern Thailand!
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  22. Swasdee I’m a Thai citizen living in Bangkok. I agree that dual pricing in Thailand is not good for our country. Though the low price for locals give us easier access to many attractions but we should have some exact regulations to distinct between tourists and residents not just looking at the face.Two side of the coins. We Thai people are discriminated by our nationality (not by race) from the civilised countries too and it might be far worse? I visited a country in Europe for two weeks in last year. I had to pay 100 eur to the embassy for the tourist visa, 20 eur for visa agency center because now the embassy only accept the application thru the agency… spent more than one week to prepare the documents… financial statement.. flight/hotel booking... took half day leave to the visa agency.. and the visa agency just refused my application because I planned to stay in two cities within that country but didn’t have the transportation proof between the two cities… ok.. I went back on the next day (boss getting angry) with new travel plan but they said it’s not good that my plane ticket confirmation has Gmail logo at the top.. ok.. I paid 10 bahts for their photo copy service to crop out that gmail.. finally got visa on the next 15 business days .. I still feel so fortunate though because I live in Bangkok with all the embassies present here… some people have to take days to leave their home and come to Bangkok just to do these expensive process. I enjoyed that trip to Europe anyway. The entrance to several attractions were very expensive there compare to here but I prepared for that.I also travelled to Laos, Cambodia, Myanmar. They are very beautiful countries and of course dual pricing is still practising there. That time I was a little annoyed but didn’t feel any big deal at all because the historical places there have high maintenance cost and still they have to keep the locals accessible. Until now I read many topics about dual pricing in Thailand and I feel wow it’s really big deal for people from the western and civilised countries. We didn’t realised that it’s illegal in some countries and many foreign visitors resent on this… Please don’t let this be the reason for not visiting here… We are trying to keep with international standard and trying to preserve our culture.
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    • Thanks for your input PJ; it's good to hear native Thai prospective on this. I'm really surprised that the embassy only accepts applications via a visa agent. Some embassies, like the British embassy, warn people to be careful of agents because often they lie about their influence over being able to get a visa approval.It's interesting that when visiting historical places in Laos, Cambodia and Myanmar you "didn’t feel any big deal at all because the historical places there have high maintenance cost and still they have to keep the locals accessible". In this situation I think there is a level of acceptance, as long as their isn't a massive difference in dual pricing. As you say, the upkeep of some of the sites is huge, plus these places tend to employ a lot of local people. That said, the problem is that even rich locals will still pay the low price, which is where it becomes unfair; though I don't mind paying a bit more to enter a historical site if it means low-income locals are able to visit at a cheaper price.However, another side to this is that in these countries the governments have more than enough money to provide funds for the upkeep of these sites and keep the rice the same for everyone, but instead choose to line their own pockets and steal money from the country through corruption.
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      • I’m really glad to get a respond from the author. I just came back from a discussion hosted by a foundation runs by some expats in Bangkok. These expats are doing really good things so they deserve to be treated equally here.Regarding the tourist visa, maybe I should have used the word ‘visa application center’ instead of visa agent? Most of the embassies from Europe now have official visa centers in Bangkok e.g. British embassy has VFS Global as their visa application center. These centers are third parties and privately run. So the visa applicants have to pay fee to both embassy and the the visa center.I agree the corruption here in this region is very bad. If this is all gone, our economy might be on par with the first world and let hope that could solve the pricing issue.
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      • It happens in USA as well. In order to obtain a China visa, you cannot go to most of the Chinese Embassies directly. You must submit your application via an authorized agent. And I can understand why it must be this way in some cases (the agent can handle the general public, and then the Embassy official gets the application in the exact order it should be in for easy processing).But there are rules on this. Like they must offer basic service at a certain price and within a certain timeframe. But of course the agents can offer 'rush' service for additional fee.
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        • Even in the official VFS visa application service that serves Australia, Canada and the UK in Bangkok, they have a VIP service for UK visits. This costs around 600 GBP and gets your visa turned around in 24 hours. They say it doesn't guarantee you a visa, but I couldn't see them turning down the two Thai superstars and their kids I saw in the lounge last time i was there, even if they had the wrong paperwork!
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    • NO YOU ARE NOT.I PAID BHT1500 FOR A SINGLE RE-ENTRY VISA WHEN IT ONLY COSTS BHT1,000.I PAID AN EXTRA BHT500 TO SEND MONEY BACK OVERSEAS.I PAY TWICE AS MUCH TO SWIM AT THE POOL COMPARED TO WHAT THAIS PAY.I PAY BHT15,000 WHEN CUAGHT FOR DRINK RIDING WHEN THE THAIS PAY FAR LESS.THIS LIST GOES ON AND ON AND ON!THE THAIS SEE FARUNG AS EASY MONEY AND DO NOT CARE ABOUT THIER SAFETY
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      • Sawasdee Krub MichelleI'm very sorry to what happen to you. I hope our government and our society will do something soon. Our system and and economy are still not well developed. Still yes many thai people think that foreigners are rich but we are now opening our mind more to outside world. Please bear with us.
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  23. Many Thais are racist and they are not even aware of it. They are taught from a young age that Thailand is number one. You could call it an ultra-nationalist country.If there was dual pricing in Australia for rich foreigners there would be outrage. Not from foreigners but from the people who live here.Another point you say is the immigrates aren't truly accept as nationals in other countries is wrong. Yes, racism does exist in Australia but no where near to the same extent as Thailand. Here if you call yourself Australian then you are Australian, no matter where you were born. I personally have many friend who were not born in Australia but are just as Aussie as me, if not more.I love Thailand but due to its ultra-nationalism (and endemic corruption) I don't think I could ever live there. It is also the ultra-nationalism and endemic corruption which continues to stifle the nation's economy. Keeping the rich Thai rich and the poor Thai very poor.But in the end of the day when I am there if I don't want to pay the asking price I don't. I just walk away.
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    • Naturally you are always going to come across a few racists no matter where you are in the world. But the fact of the matter is, dual pricing in Thailand has absolutely nothing to do with racism. Also dual pricing is hardly exclusive to Thailand. For example if I want to go to an out of state college here in the USA I might have to pay double the tuition fees of students who are residents of that state. This is not because people from that state are racists and hate Californians. Its because I have never paid taxes in that state.By the way, if you want to live in a place where Asians TRULY hate White people then try living in Hawaii for a while. They usually keep these feelings bottled up for the sake of the tourist dollars but many of the so-called “locals” harbor an intense hatred of Whites, and White mainlanders in particular. Although hopefully things have changed in the past 20 years.As for Westerners not being able to attain full Thai citizenship this also has nothing to do with racism. The problem is, people who grew up in a heterogeneous society, such as that of the USA, tend to take it for grated that everyone who is born here is automatically granted citizenship, regardless of race. But this is not at all the norm in homogeneous countries like Japan and Thailand. In these places race is an integral part of nationality and citizenship and always has been. Their way is not “wrong” it’s just different. And it’s certainly not racist.I think I have told this story before but I have a friend in Japan who has a Korean father and a Japanese mother. And because of this - and despite the fact that she was born and raised in Japan - she has to carry a Korean passport (a country she has never even been to), and is not considered to be a Japanese citizen. This may sound outrageously unfair to most westerners but this is just how things are done over there. Incidentally, just because the government of a particular country does not consider expats of a different race to be full fledged citizens does not mean that the people of that country do not accept them with open arms in many cases.Of course human beings are very irrational and insecure creatures and whenever they find themselves to suddenly be part of a minority these insecurities get kicked into overdrive. For example when I was living in Japan I constantly had to listen to my fellow expats bellyache about being “discriminated” against and looked down upon by the Japanese. They even somehow convinced themselves that the word “Gaijin” is a derogatory term, which of course it is not. In fact this argument became so contentious back in the 90’s that a popular bilingual magazine, Hiragana Times, had the brilliant idea to stop using the word Gaijin in their articles and replace it with the term “NJ” (Non-Japanese). I have never heard of anything more absurdly ridiculous in my life. The problem is we have become so insanely politically correct here in the USA that we are constantly deciding that this or that word has somehow become “offensive” and so we change it to something else, which means the exact same thing. And then a few years down the road we will decide that this new word is now offensive and must of course be changed yet again. And I guess its only natural that we would try to export this insanity to other countries like Japan.Back to insecurities though, this is the reason people are often absolutely “sure” they are being discriminated against when in fact they are not 95% of the time. If a person is insecure about his weight then every time he doesn’t get the job he interviewed for, or when he feels he is not being treated right, he will attribute this to being overweight. And if he is a minority he will be sure that every time things don’t go his way its because of his race. That not to say that this occasionally won’t actually be the case but the point is that whether it is or not he will always be "certain" that it is. And when people move to a foreign country they often become very insecure in their surroundings and this causes them to imagine that they are being treated badly due to their race or nationality.Another issue I think is that many Whites from places like the USA have just became very spoiled and have this huge sense of entitlement these days. So when they move to a place where they are no longer the top dogs they just can’t handle it and they tend to throw temper tantrums when they feel they are being treated like second class citizens. I think of them kind of like a small child trying to get in with a new group of friends. And when it doesn’t work out he says to himself: “How dare these other kids not make me a full fledged member of their club when I am such a totally awesome person and when I was one of the cool kids in my old group back home.All I can say is, its time to grow up, boys and girls, and loose the crappy attitudes and righteous indignation if you want to live in another country.
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  24. I work as a teacher teaching Thai kids for a modest income . I am by no means rich. I resent paying twice the price for a river cruise of the Mercedes-owning Thai businessmen in front of me in the queue . The Thais going on this cruise are not poor farmers or vendors. This dual pricing (and I have understood your argument) creates bad feelings and ill will. I will not accept or tolerate it and will not be a part of it. Furthermore, I will actively seek to destroy it in my own small way. Thai people are very proud of their country , as you know, and now, whenever a Thai asks me if I like Thailand , I will answer yes ... apart from dual pricing. I will ask them if they would enjoy being charged extra to see attractions in my country... or seeing a sign saying Australians $10 Thais $200.
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    • Totally agree with you ! Original Article is Full of Liberal Rethoric But cant manage to justify what is Shocking Buddhist Greed and Obvious Discrimination based on National Origin. I cant stand Hypocrisy and Scam Artists , even when they display a Big Smile !!! Japan is much more Fair, Honest and Respectable in my Opinion based on Multiple Trips to Tokyo, Kyoto and Okinawa.
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  25. I'm going to side with most other comments. Look if the price is posted and it says Thai 20 baht, foreigners 200 baht. That's BS racist crap. You think Chinese or Koreans or Phillipinos pay that? No they get to pay the Thai price because they are Asian looking. It's also against the law technically in that country according to on of my Thai lawyer friends.Now, if it's a situation where you negotiate and they want to charge you more, I accept that. I've had that happen so many times. I ask the price, 150 baht. I walk away and ask my Japanese gf to ask, 80 baht.
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    • Actually I can tell you from first hand experience that they don’t always just let every Asian looking person slide on the foreigner rate. In fact on a trip to Koh Samet with my girlfriend even she was asked if she was Thai so that the guy would know how much to charge her. And she looks about as Thai as you can possibly get. So if he is asking her you can bet he is asking the Asians that even I can tell are not Thais.By the way, I did not mind in the least paying more for my entrance fee. My girlfriend on the other hand went ballistic on the guy when he ask if she was Thai, as if this innocent and necessary question were some sort of insult or something. I swear, I’ve known ladyboys who were less prone to mood swings than this girl.
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    • While the title is provocative, I wrote this (some time ago) to offer a different perspective on why paying a little bit more might actually be beneficial to lower income Thai families. Of course I object to discrimination, but if by paying 50 Baht more for a ticket I can contribute to the upkeep of the attraction and enable prices for average earning locals to remain low, I'm cool with that. I'm not saying my thinking here isn't flawed but wanted to offer another side to this debate that is seldom thought about. I'm not a "rich farang", as you suggest, but I'm quite sure that there are very few foreigners who could afford to live in Thailand on an average Thai wage, and those that do probably wouldn't be visiting cultural heritage sites – more likely sitting on the step of 7-11 drinking beer.
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      • Not much different to poor rice farmers. Clearly all tourist attractions in Thailand are made with middle class visitors in mind, virtually all of whom arrive by car (even if it's a 2008 model VIOS) but by virtue of the fact they can afford to drive a car, they must be rich. So why do they only have to pay say 40 Baht, when a backpacker without shoes and a torn shirt arriving on a dented scooter he rented for 100 Baht a day have to pay 400 Baht, just because he has a white face and could afford the A$300 return airfare from Perth?
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        • I take your point on attractions: I recently went to the new dinosaur exhibition in Bangkok. It costs 600 Baht for adults and 400 Baht for children. No dual pricing, but how the hell could an average Thai earning family afford to take their children there?As I pointed out, I don't have a solution to stop the rich Thais paying standard price, except perhaps the introduction of a low income subsidy card. My basic point is that I don't mind paying more than the average Thai who earns say 8-10k Baht a month. If their entrance is subsidised because of low income, I'm happy for them to be able to take their family to the same places I take mine. Of course I'm not on board with "foreigners pay 600 Baht and Thais pay 100 Baht", or any ridiculous disparity like that.Not sure about your point on the backpackers though. They might arrive in a torn t-shirt and on a scooter, but it reminds me of those lines in the Pulp song, Common People: "Smoke some fags and play some pool, pretend you never went to school. But still you'll never get it right, 'cos when you're laid in bed at night watching roaches climb the wall, If you call your Dad he could stop it all". The majority of backpackers are on a gap year out traveling cheaply, but if they run into cash issues they have mum/dad to fall back on. I'm not anti-backpackers; I've done my fair share of trekking and shisha at Ark Bar, but that's the reality.I don't agree about a car meaning a Thai person is rich either. The large majority of Thais have their cars on finance. The average household debt stands at 248k (2015). I know a guy who had his pickup repossessed.
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  28. Good morning for a start i am not a ( farang) i am a Foreigner in Thai Chaw Tang Chat . Dual Pricing is Racist nothing more ,there is places that cut hair where chaw tang chat pay nearly double for there hair to be cut .One last point about the word you use ( farang) some Thai people will speak to you and they know your name but walk away with there Thai friend start saying ( farang) this ( farang) that . I could tell you so much about Thailand .
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    • Quite, Arthur, I often joke with my Thai friends that I am not a farang but a ชาวต่างประเทศ as you point out. As I said in the post, you have to understand the history of the Thai economy and its transition from a barter based economy to the pseudo, immature capitalist model that exists today. As for the term being racist, 99% of Thais who use this word do not do so with any malicious intent and, when you understand the language, you quickly recognize the difference between the term being used in everyday conversation as a friendly, mild identifier/classification and as in anger coupled with other insults. If the Thais you're mixing with are nice to your face and insulting you behind your back then I suggest you look at the type of company you are keeping.
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      • Now that's a comment I can finally agree with. However, the other way of saying "farang", which might actually be more appropriate but strangely isn't very commonly used in Thailand is simply saying the Thai for "white person", which is คนผิวขาว or just ผิวขาว for short. I use it quite often myself.Although literally a "farang" is someone from France, the origins of the word comes from the Persian "feranghi" and later became a word to describe westerners. So in a sense, the term "farang" is perhaps even a little less specific when it comes to race or ethnicity than "kon piu khao" but due to it's overuse at times it can appear to have negative connotations even if it normally isn't intended. As you have already pointed out, this will depend on the context. Referring to a western stranger as a farang is not bad, but a westerner who's name is known, now that's just discrimination.Equally, I wouldn't necessarily use the word "ชาวต่างชาติ" (chao dtang chaat) or similar to refer to a westerner because what happens when said westerner is actually a Thai citizen? A term which although it's more formal actually literally means "foreigner" would be more discriminatory when used inappropriately than the term "farang" or "piu kao". Another alternative would be westerner, which is "ชาวตะวันตก" (chao tawan dtok). Obviously, it would be contradictory to refer to a westerner who is a Thai citizen as being a "chao dtang chaat" and therefore, referring to them as "farang" would be better.In short, there are "farang" who are Thais, but there are no "chao dtang chaat" who are Thais.
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  29. Following this logic, transport,food and accommodation, among many other things should be priced according to income. Maybe there could be separate buses and separate hotels.Maybe, separate areas of restaurants......separate toilets.....
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    • Although the curator of the white temple proposed this for Chinese tourists, that would bring us back to the dark old days of Jim Crow laws or Apartheid, Thailand style. Frankly in this day and age, that can not be accepted, no matter what.
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  30. Dual pricing makes a lot of sense, and can even help lower the cost for us Farang. A lot of dual priced attractions, especially the privately owned ones, have high fixed costs and low marginal costs.In the ocean world underneath Siam square for instance, the fixed cost of operation is very high (penguins etc), but the additional cost of letting each new customer come in is very low. They also have a huge price difference for Farang and Thai, 1500 to 500 Bht I believe. (!! Whoa totally unfair right!!)Say the fixed cost of operation for ocean world is 10,000,000 B over period x. The marginal cost of each customer they let in the door may be something like 100B (for the labor cost of the cashier, security, maintenance etc.)Now they wouldn’t be profitable if they charged everyone 500B, (10,000,000 of fixed cost is a lot to pay for), but if they didn’t have a lower Thai price, then they would lose those customers altogether- who are paying 300-400 B above the additional cost that their presence imposes on the business.So instead of 2000 Thai customers paying 500B and 2000 farang customers paying 1500B every week to cover the costs, there'd be only the Farang and a few Thais. That could mean that the farang price actually gets higher- not lower- because there are fewer customers overall covering the same fixed cost.As for the gov't imposed dual pricing at parks etc., makes perfect sense. Many farang, even those who work here, are fair weather friends. Come to thailand when they're young, leave if there is conflict, or if they have a medical emergency, or just want to 'get more serious' about life back home. So heck yes they're charged more for attractions. Spot on.
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    • I'd never thought of that business perspective before but it makes a lot of sense. At the end of the day, if the prices go up fewer average wage Thais will be able to afford visiting local attractions in their own country, and that would be very sad.
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    • I don't think it's like that. Most attractions such as Siam Ocean World are made with middle class Thai visitors in mind. Although that attraction sees a lot of foreigners because it's in the middle of the city, most other attractions elsewhere rarely see any foreigners. Or when they do it tends to be 1-2 expats NOT tourists a day.When you have an entrance price of 300 Baht for Thais and 450 for foreigners for example, that's just greed.If the fixed costs of operating were say 1 million Baht a month and 1000 Thais came but just 3 foreigners came (yes, that's what usually happens in most places in Thailand) then they would receive 300 x 1000 = 300,000 a month + 3 x 450 = 1350 => 300,000 + 1,350 = 301,350. If however, everyone paid 300 then it would simply be 1003 x 300 = 300,900. So foregoing that extra 450 Baht (150 Baht extra per person) really isn't going to make a difference is it?But when you consider that say another 10 foreigners have been put off visiting because they know about the higher price, then the actual extra income they could have earned that is now foregone is 10 x 300 = 3,000 - 1,350 = 1,650.I know that's a simplistic example but I think you can see what I'm getting at.Also, I think if middle class Thais can afford to pay 300 they can probably also afford to pay 400. They aren't that poor. They definitely own a car, probably a condo or house in a moo baan, a smartphone, they just had lunch at Sizzler, so why do they need to pay 150 Baht less than some dreadlocked backpacker with no shoes, a torn shirt, no car, who just spent 60 Baht eating lunch at the food court to save money and only 1000 Baht in his wallet?
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  31. Most continental countries tend to blend with their neighbours at the border.To clarify a bit - it isn't actually Thailand's history or culture itself I have a problem with. Indeed as you say l know very little of it, and most Thais know little more as far as I can tell. Rather it's modern Thailand's treatment of it which seems lacking.We had these "cultural awareness" evenings at my company and they always featured the same awkward dance by people in traditional clothes, then a meal. No one was ever really able to explain anything about the significance of any of it. Not that I really expect very much of these things anyway, some sort of a back story would be nice!Most of the museums and so forth I visited were the same story and no one seemed able or interested in explaining anything else. Just selling souvenirs.Again I expect an element of that but it seemed very hard to get past it because generally the people don't know and are not interested.Where I am in the UK at the moment there are at least 3 castles within about 20 minutes drive, a large countrt house owned by a Victorian industrialist and a botanical garden all of which are open to the public with one price and information about their history. There's also 2 local craft breweries, which is nice. And that's just a little speck on the map in a county that most people wouldn't have heard of.
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  32. Few English people know much of their country's history either, and I'm sure the same goes for many European countries. However, if history and culture is your thing, Thailand is a very interesting place.Each part of the country draws on different influences: Be it Malay in the South, Laotian/Southern Chinese in the Northeast or the Burmese tribes in the far North, the country is stooped in rich history.Multiple religious influences make Thai culture very unique; the same goes for Thai cuisine.And then there's the kingdoms to study, not to mention some exceptional artists and poets, and of course the colourful people...
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  33. Not trolling. As i said, some Buddhist trinkets, a bunch of animist superstitions, gaudy temples and markets full of tat. What did I miss? Even the "educated" Thais in my office had a pretty limited grasp of their own history.I suppose it depends what you compare it to, but personally I find just about any corner of Europe far more stimulating.
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  34. You're just a racist apologist who has given up on this issue so you just seem to accept it and then try to justify it in kind of roundabout way by suggesting that Thais are so poor blah blah blah. The reality is dual pricing IS RACIST and it's unacceptable in this day and age - it may have made sense way back in the 1960s-80s or so when disposable incomes in Thailand were very low, foreign tourists brought in a lot of money and very few Thais travelled or lived abroad. But times have changed. It's also like 1950s America where foreigners and Thais are segregated, which in this case means that Thais are held in higher esteem than foreigners, which are treated like dirt and as such are simply walking ATM machines. These days however the average Thai is a middle class Thai and is relatively well off, can afford a car (clearly a sign of wealth), overseas holidays and can also afford to pay admission rates to tourist sites without having their admission fees subsidized by foreigners, just because the foreigner speaks a different language, has white skin, brown hair and maybe a big nose. Assumptions in Thailand about where you come from are always skin deep - they look at you and decide that you're not a local and charge you more. That's racist in anyone's books, except maybe if you're a Thai apologist. While it's easy enough to avoid it if you speak Thai and it happens at a market (you just bargain further or you move onto another seller as you have choices), the institutionalized dual pricing at tourist sites is what's really bad and needs to be stamped out.And you contradict yourself when you say that Thailand is a great place to live and yet say that foreigners shouldn't complain about and go home if they don't like it. Well why should foreigners, particularly expats accept this vile practice, which clearly shows that to any establishment that practices it, foreigners are nothing more than people that can and should be exploited and that they can never be integrated into society unless they qualify for and receive Thai citizenship (which very few do). That's clearly a sign that Thai based expats are treated as second class citizens.Imagine if Thais were charged more for being foreigners in the west - they should be, if your argument holds true because after all, if they could afford to buy a place ticket to the west then they must be rich too right? And why shouldn't Americans get a discount for being American back home? Or Australians, Europeans etc.?
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    • The reality is- the top 20% own 69% of the country's assets while the bottom 20% own only 1%.- 42% of bank savings money comes from only 70,000 bank accounts holding more than 10 million baht. They make up only 0.09% of all bank accounts in the country. In other words, less than 1% of the people own nearly half of the country's savings.- Among the farming families, nearly 20% of them are landless, or about 811,871 families, while 1-1.5 million farming families are tenants or struggling with insufficient land.- 10% of land owners own more than 100 rai each, while the rest 90% own one rai or less.- On income distribution, the top 20% enjoy more than 50% of the gross domestic product while the bottom 20% only 4%.- The average income of the bottom 20% is the same as the poverty line at 1,443 baht per month.- The gap between the richest and poorest family is 13 times, higher than all neighbouring countries.I am all for every family having the same opportunities as mine. And therefore, if I have to pay 100 Baht more for my family to get into a local museum because I earn 10x more than the Thai guy down the road then I am absolutely happy to do that, and would be glad to see his children having access to the same learning experience as mine.You can call it racism, communism or any other type of ism, I call it sharing.
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      • And what about this elite minority? They still get in at Thai prices? Great.Fortunately I've moved on, I'm no longer in Thailand and had forgotten about this silly practice until a reminder popped up in my inbox.Back in the real world now and it's made me realise that by and large the moaners there are right. It's a pretty shit country. It doesn't really have very much cultural heritage to speak of because most of the country are still peasant farmers. It's got a few generic Buddhist trinkets which they hype up beyond belief.The odd bits of genuinely interesting historical stuff they have are hardly worth visiting because they know SFA about them anyway. You'll find more on Wikipedia or similar than you will with their drivelling Thinglish translations, and tacky gift shops.Most times you're being asked to pay for something it's just some tourist clap trap anyway and you're best off avoiding it.I was there for 3 years with work and while there were some things I enjoyed, it's rich and unique culture wasn't one of them, and nor was their dimwitted weirdness about foreigners.
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      • Don't know where you got these statistics from, but it's a similar story in the west. Why would, or should, any foreigner care about what you just said? You don't make a convincing argument because otherwise American or Australian or European tourist attractions should also be cheaper for locals than for foreigners. That's because only a small percentage of Americans own most of the wealth, the vast majority of the masses have amassed a level of debt that in many cases is higher than their disposable incomes due to credit card, mortgage debt, car payments etc.
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  35. Reasonable points but it still grates with me. I live and work in Thailand and pay taxes here, I earn a reasonable wage but not stellar for Bangkok and I meet many Thais who earn double or more what I do. Why should I pay more than someone who earns far more than me simply because of the country that issued my passport.
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    • I think your situation is slightly different, although most people wouldn't be able to differentiate between a foreigner working here and paying taxes and a tourist of part-time stayer. The fact remains though that the average Thai earns way less than a foreign teacher on a fairly low wage on 35,000 Baht per month, so paying 30 Baht more to get into a national heritage site shouldn't be an issue. The issue I have is that I think the elite class here should pay more taxes and that money should be used to create better social care for the poor, either that or there should be far more concessions for low income earners.My point in this post is that I don't mind paying extra to get into a museum or similar place if it means the extra I pay allows for the same day out to be free or much less for a low income family.I rarely come across dual pricing on food, but then I live in a fairly Thai area. I am friendly with the vendors I buy from and speak enough Thai to put people off trying to overcharge. Of course, every foreigner gets charged more once in a while, most likely without even knowing it. For example I took a 10 Baht motorbike taxi the other day and the guy said 20 baht. I knew it was 10 because I know others who take the route, but I just couldn't be doing with haggling with him over 10 baht, even out of principle - he's never going to get rich doing that job anyway, or nicking the odd 10 baht here and there.have a good day,
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      • I think you need to make the distinction between institutionalized dual pricing and where a local vendor tries to extract more money out of you. In the latter case, prices aren't fixed and if you like someone, such as a guide, there's nothing wrong with tipping them or paying them a little extra. That's got nothing to do with dual pricing and I doubt your 10 Baht example is a fixed price either. They probably charge whatever they feel like charging that day - the minimum being 10, sometimes 20, sometimes 30. Unless they have a board with fixed prices, then your example is hearsay. In any case, if you're convinced you were being had, you might want to invest in a motorcycle or car, and then you can drive yourself and do away with at least one form of haggling.Personally I own both a car and motorcycle - haven't taken public transport in Thailand for years aside from one or two short distance taxi rides when I was with a friend and parked my car far away or something.
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  36. Hi Peter,If you have savings / a pension that enables you to pay the 'farang' price, then you're very lucky. I've spent most of my working life in Thailand and do not. For other expats in my position, I cordially invite you to 'like' a Facebook community page my wife and I set up (https://www.facebook.com/foreigner.friendly.destinations.in.thailand). Advice is given on how to secure the correct price at Thai tourist sites, as well as details of foreigner-friendly and foreigner-unfriendly destinations. We encourage users to provide feedback on tourist sites too, though this is not compulsory. Look forward to seeing you soon. Many thanks for your time. Kind regards, Tim
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  37. It's a racist policy, no doubt. If it was about discriminating based on wealth as you say, there would discount cards for poor Thai people. Rich Thai people would be excluded.The other thing is that it's not just economics. If it was just economics, the prices would be negotiable and the sellers would take as much money as they could from the buyer usually resulting in rich buyers paying more. But when there is fixed pricing, it doesn't work that way. Indonesians who are on average much poorer than Thais also get slugged with a higher price and are therefore often excluded from some attractions. Because there is no room for them to negotiate or get the poor person's price. It stinks.
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    • That's a good point - maybe poor people who earn below a certain amount should get a special card entitling them to a lower price, while everyone else including Thai tourists pay the same as foreigners, meaning there would in effect no longer be a dual pricing structure that merely discriminates on the basis of race or nationality, but simply upon income. That would be reasonable if implemented correctly.
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  38. Peter, interesting perspective but I don't buy it. While I agree that we do have to deal with it because no amount of whining will change such a deep-held belief, it doesn't mean we have to agree with it or support it.Your basic argument is the same one that Thais use to justify double pricing - farang have more money than Thais, so they can afford to pay more. While your second argument that it's based on 'sensible economics' is certainly worth more discussion, the entire scheme is based on assumption and profiling, and upon closer inspection, the whole argument falls apart.While I am indeed fortunate enough to make more money than some Thais I know, other Thais I know make much more than I do, and certainly come from families that own property, land and large businesses that pull in more money in a month than I'll see in my lifetime. Following your argument, they should pay more than me. How much? Is it a sliding scale? Should we show our pay slips?Further to that, what if two Thais go to the same attraction - Somchai from Bangkok and Pimporn from Buriram. Should Somchai pay more because people from Bangkok have a higher average income than people from Buriram? How finely do you slice it - there are poor people and rich people in Bangkok too - do you divvy it up by neighborhood? And how would the gate attendant of an attraction decide who pays more? Just as they know I'm a farang by my white face, can they assume that because Pimporn has dark skin more commonly seen in Isaan that she from Buriram?What if, say, the London Eye charged one price for locals and 3x that price for Thais visiting the UK. Well, they can afford to travel to an expensive country, so shouldn't they pay more than some local high school kid?I'm not saying there's an easy answer - I certainly don't have one - I'm just saying the practice if ripe for abuse, and it's a slippery slope to full-on discrimination.
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  39. This dual pricing in not confined to Thailand, nor even just countries where the difference between expatriate disposable income and that of the locals is vastly skewed. It happens in Italy, France, Romania, Kazakhstan, Russia, Egypt, Libya, Indonesia, Malaysia and I am sure many other places. This my friends is a fact of life. "you have , they want, you want, thy price themselves into the game. If you have ever been to the waterbom park in Bali, be prepared :)Admittedly, this was some years ago but I took my family of 4. The entrance price was (from memory now) $26 USD for an adult and $16 USD for a child, eldest son was 11 but looked like 15 to the local so we are at 3 adults and 1 child, total $88 AUD. This is entrance fee only, see above link for what you also need... who cares, right? I am on holiday... woohoo! Whilst paying, a local family consisting of Father, Mother, what looked like 9 children and a baby. Total cost 1500 Rp. Exchange rate was @ 4500 Rp. to the USD. I watched my children having fun and I watched that local family having fun... It was worth every cent and as for the price difference? As some of the posters have said, the reason that local family was able to go was my subsidy of them through the ticket price for foreigners. Once you remove the local element through inability to pay the entrance fee, you need to seriously ask yourself why did you go to another country for a holiday anyway.New Year greetings to all!PS For those that may be still working the math out, the local family paid 30 cents and we paid 396,000 Rp. :) will leave the rest of the math to you!
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    • Thanks for relaying that experience Nick. That's quite a big difference in pricing, and just goes to show that we're probably getting off lightly in Thailand :) I've never seen entrance fees with that much of a divide here. Like you say, it's rewarding to see locals enjoying the same experiences with their children as more privileged foreigners.
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  40. I have to completely disagree with all of you. I think dual pricing is disgraceful and racist. If this was done in the west you would be up in court on discrimination charges. Where do you come up with this ludricus notion that just because foreigners have or are perceived to have more money they should be charged more. It's corrupt practices like this in all levels of Thai society and people putting up with it and not standing up for their rights is what is holding this country back. I don't stand for it and if I go somewhere with dual pricing I vote with my feet and go elsewhere.
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    • It's not a perceived notion that foreigners living in Thailand have more money than the average Thai, it's the truth. Why should a foreigner who earns 10x what the average Thai does not pay $2 more for entry to a museum? What's the alternative? That all museums and cultural places of interest are only accessible to foreigners and middle-upper class Thais. For example, if a foreign recording artist, say Lady Gaga, for example, holds a concert in Bangkok, a Thai guy earning 15,000 Baht a month isn't going to be able to afford to take his daughters along at 3,000 Baht a ticket. The concert is likely to be full of foreigners living in Thailand and the kids of rich Thais. Providing concessions through dual pricing for low earners mobilises people, and that's wholly positive for society. Personally I hate going to nice places and only ever seeing expats and the upper echelons of society. People always point the finger at the lower classes for not educating themselves and only ever sitting around watching TV. But if they can't afford to go on days out to the zoo, museum, a concert, or enrole their kids in extra curricular activities because the prices are structured for higher earners then what can we expect them to do with their lives.You're absolutely right. It is corruption that holds Thailand back. And it's that corruption that keeps the majority living on the breadline. I agree, people should stand up for their rights, and with living costs on the rise the minimum wage must be increased across the board. There also needs to be a social welfare system, and men need to be held accountable for their offspring. Until such issues are addressed, I don't have a problem paying a couple of bucks more here and there so others can enjoy the same things i do.
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      • While I can see an argument for Thai taxpayers paying less (or nothing) for public attractions or facilities or goods, there is none for private ones. And it's laughable and naive to theorise that such people are nobly using the extra money to subsidise poorer folk. It's pure chancing or racism, based on what they think each customer can pay and they simply pocket the difference. There is no logic in your theory. A lot of the attractions don't even get many foreigners. In that case, they can't be subsidising anything.
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      • LOL, you said: "That all museums and cultural places of interest are only accessible to foreigners and middle-upper class Thais."Yes, that's exactly it. The museums and cultural places of interest are all made with this demographic in mind. They certainly aren't attracting your Somchai rice farmers and unskilled labourers.Since when can Somchai afford to pay even 100 Baht to see a cultural attraction?
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        • You're quoting me out of context there. Please read the full comment I made.I have to disagree. If the dinosaur exhibition was 50 Baht per person for low income earners I'm quite sure lots of average families would go. I've been to a ton of places in Thailand where it's cheap to get in and Thai families are enjoying the day out. But it costs to run these places; to pay the staff and the upkeep. So that's part of my point: If those earning under 15k get a concession to get in, but me, the guy earning a ton more than that has to pay an extra 2 quid to get in, I'm cool with that on the basis that it's accessible for the lower earners and their families get to enjoy the same as mine. Of course, I fully expect the hi-so Thais to pay the higher amount too.I'm not cool with paying more for attractions on the basis of being white, but I'm cool with lower pricing for low income earners. But as for the local economy and dual pricing, this is not about race. I get a cheaper price from my fruit lady than most Thais. I've seen jaws drop to the floor when they see what price I'm being given. This is how it works in Thailand. She's a good friend now and I've been going there for years.
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  41. Often times Thai people have to deal with the same tuk-tuk double-pricing. It may not be as bad as Foreigners, but scams can happen with the locals also. Like the time that Siam Paragon taxi stand had no taxis. Yes, I could have walked to an alternate location and scoped a taxi there, but I had a lot of stuff with me. the tuk tuks stopped and would ask people how much to go a nearby location, they were quoting 200-400 baht to places that should have been 50-100 baht MAX. People turned their heads in disgust, especially one thai lady. But the tuk-tuks had the upper hand (and they knew it) because it weren't any taxis and about 20 people waiting at the time. I caved in because I had a train to catch, but it did leave a small salty taste in my mouth.And let's not talk about Phuket taxi and any concept of fair pricing in the same sentence.On the flip side, I have to look at all of the " free lunches" that I've gotten (collectively) while in Thailand and that 200 baht tuk tuk was just one of those things that you have to suck it up and smile about as part of the dues you pay.I'm okay with double-pricing when I know ahead of time what the deal is. But if a venue is supposed to be one price, and I am quoted another, it's a whole different ball game. As I understand it, if you have a thai id or identification such as a residence certificate, work permit, or even a local thai bank card, you can get into some of the places at local prices.
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    • I agree on the tuk tuk thing. I was shopping with my wife last week, and after we came out we had to join a queue of Thais and foreigners who were all being subjected to taxis and tuk tuks quoting 200 Baht for 50-70 Baht fares. My wife refused to pay, and after 10 minutes of her telling off each driver as they quoted, a tuk tuk agreed to take us for 100 Baht. This practice is usually limited however to specific tourist shopping districts.As you rightly say, if the double pricing is fixed in advance then it's one thing, but venues/services making up on the spot is unacceptable.
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  42. Thanks for this commons sense, grown-up and compassionate article about ไทย / ฝรั่ง $ราคา . . . sometimes, I must admit, that I feel myself getting pissed off when I hear about how Thai people perceive farang as walking ATMs . . . but thankfully, I soon realize that the feeling was just my knee-jerk, simplistic response to perceived insult. What it really is, is myself/Farang brushing up against uncomfortable "reality" . . . the "reality" that must be lived by other people who did not win the birth lottery of entry into a first-world nation with at least a semblence of potential upward mobility for the "Average Joe" if he/she decides to work for it . . . what always amazes me, is people's inability to see beyond their own short-sighted feelings . . . We (i.e., most of us average westerners) have options both geographic and economic that most Thais can only dream of . . . I would like to think I am a grown-up in this big world, I have no problem with the dual-economy - and if the western money that I contribute might allow for a hard working thai lower/middle class family to have a dinner out and a movie night together - then I am thankful for that.
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    • Brian, you're absolutely right. It's up to us to see the true reality because we have been blessed with the insight. Of course, the average Thai person's idea of how much money the average foreigner living in Thailand has is perhaps often misguided, and it isn't easy to accept that at times behind the smile is a person who sees dollar signs and nothing more than a "farang", but then how different is this to any other place in the world? But not everyone is like that, and like you say it's often perceived insult rather than a reality. We are lucky to live here, and privileged to be well received by the majority; so instead of grumbling over a few quid we should be more willing to contribute where we can to help the average Thai family. Have a great Christmas!
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      • Actually, it's not really racism. Most Thais and other Asians as well see Westerners such as these presenting arguments comprising such bent logic as absolute idiots. Hence, you are their walking ATM machine.
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        • Localised economies exist all over the world, even in the UK among ethnic and rural communities. The post seeks to explore the cultural/historic influences on this such as the barter economy that still exists with economies in Asia and Africa. The idea is to take the debate beyond the simple notion of racism. Feel free to disagree, but please do better than to just sling insults and sarcasm around.
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