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Why I Don’t Blog About Thai Bar Girls

Recently a friend of mine asked me why I didn’t write posts about Thai bar girls and the sex scene to increase traffic on my blog. Everyone else does!

The answer was short and simple, yet the explanation slightly longer.

In short; quite frankly, it’s boring. The subject matter of bar girls has been discussed into oblivion on hundreds of other websites.

Blog and forum owners happily let people thrash out misogynistic musings on their sites as link-bait to drive traffic, but this isn’t what I set up my blog to do, and the reality is that Thailand is so much more than the bar scene.

It is part of it, but the longer you live here the more insignificant it becomes.

I don't want to waste time discussing questions like “Can bar girls ever be faithful”? Or debating stories of men who feel aggrieved at having struck up a relationship with a bar girl and spent tons of money, only for her to move on to a new “handsome man”.

I don't enjoy degrading people either. I don't enjoy talking about women as if they are inhuman, as if they are objects to be sexually exploited. I have a daughter and a mother. Go figure.

Don't get me wrong: I have no problem with casual sex. I am not a prude. What consenting adults do together is up to them.

But for all the hatred and idiocy ranted on forums and blogs by “barstool experts”, people would do well to remember that these girls are the daughters and sisters of other human beings, and at one time children with dreams and aspirations – just like our own children.

So, the point of this article about bar girls is to go beyond the heavy make-up and high heels and look at the industry from the ground up. To strip naked (no pun intended) the circumstances that have resulted in so many women entering the industry and ultimately being de-humanised by punters and society at large.

bar girls thailand

Life Before the Bar

Firstly, let’s look at the demographic of the average Thai prostitute.

A sub-standard school education, if she finished school at all.

Married young in a rural village – usually in the North or North East somewhere – and partnered by her family with an ill-suited young man, one who quickly becomes restless and ends up boozing and womanising like his father did, and his father before that.

Boy leaves girl with one or two kids. Girl receives no social security money from the state, and no child maintenance from the father of her children.

So, the pressure falls on the girl to find work to support the children and her aging parents, who, by the way, she has already disappointed by having a failed marriage, and further upset by now being a single mother and scarring the face of family pride.

Girl then becomes determined to provide her children with a better life, and to elevate the face of her family in the village.

Girl hears from another girl (friend, “cousin”) that working in a bar in Bangkok, or on one of the popular tourist islands, is the best way to make fast money, and to meet a rich foreign boyfriend who will be prepared to take on her kids and support her parents (or a story very similar to that).

Due to her lack of education, the girl then weighs up the other options as a cleaner, rice farmer or factory worker – facing ridiculous hours of work that will never provide enough money to make her children’s/parent’s lives any better than the current situation.

So, girl migrates to the city/island to start her covert initiation into the world of prostitution; most likely with no idea what it entails and what she's letting herself in for.

*At this point it should be noted that some (not all) girls arrive at bars in debt to middlemen who arrange travel and accommodation. So even if the girl wants to leave after arrival, she will have to work off that debt first. This is a devious way to keep the recruitment numbers high and the deserters low. I mean, once you've sold your body a few times the deed is done; it's pointless returning to disappoint your parents with the news that you didn't make it in the “big city” after all. Once you've crossed the line, you might as well try and make it work, right?

Cultural & Social Obligations

Having travelled to the North and North East of Thailand many times and seen the lack of opportunity, pressures of money (debt) and “keeping face” that young girls grow up with, when I see a girl standing outside a bar on the street, no matter how sexy she is trying to act, I find it impossible to see her as anything other than a victim of circumstance, of a system that in many ways socially engineers and encourages prostitution.

What I see in the bar is not a piece of meat to be exploited, but a girl that grew up believing that one day, when she finishes school, she will find a respectable job and be able to make her parents proud.

I don’t see a girl who grew up aspiring to be a dirty old man’s fantasy, or a girl who aspired to have nightly sex with men she doesn't find attractive.

I see a girl who naively bought into the idea that her teenage husband would stay faithful and do his best to always support her and their kids, and invested in the antiquated cultural requirement that a girl must marry the first seemingly decent boy she is caught flirting with.

I see a girl who felt that she had to sell her soul for the bigger picture, to go against the morals she was brought up in an attempt to better the future of her family.

I see a girl who has sacrificed her own happiness, and potentially her mental stability, for the benefit of her family. No one should ever have to do that.

And then I see a plethora or foreign men coming to exploit, not help, as they may proclaim, the unfortunate situation of a woman failed by a society that does not provide social welfare or adult education programs for single mothers, and does not hold men in the slightest bit accountable for their offspring.

Is it Really a True “Choice”?

No doubt someone will surf on through here and tell me that many bar girls do the job by choice, making that self-serving observation that “she doesn't have to do it if she doesn't want to”.

But as I have covered, the cultural pressures and limited choice of economic progression force the hand into the fire. So the word “choice” becomes an ambiguous one at best.

When you debate this issue and use the word “choice” as your key defence, do you mean the same “choices” (quote on quote) that you would accept for your kids or close friends? I very much doubt it.

If the alternative career paths wouldn't provide an acceptable level of living for our children, then how can we so flippantly use the word “choice” as a justification for what these girls do?

Of course, there will always be a handful of women in Thailand who left a decent career to make more money in the sex industry; every one seems to have an anecdotal story on this. But we know this isn't the norm; it's not common.

The Reality Behind The Heels & Smiles

I won’t lie. My eyes danced when I first saw the bright lights, high heels, elegance and youthful beauty of the girls in the go-go bars.

It really didn’t compute that the hostesses in the bars were actually no different to the hookers lurking in the back streets of Soho, London. I couldn't see any hollow-eyed druggies with greasy hair, no bad attitudes looking for the quickest transaction possible.

This all looked so friendly and welcoming.

And it's this sugar-coated version of prostitution that makes it easier to ignore the truth.

However, the more I learnt about the industry behind the scenes – the social-economic structure of the country, the systematic oppression of the lower classes and regional prejudice – the easier it became to see the emptiness behind the smiles and gracious gestures.

Strangely, men seem to get so caught up in the ego trip of being a “handsome man” that they neglect to notice that these bar girls are young Thai women, and by preference probably don't actually fancy western men.

In fact, the majority of young Thai women are into teenage Korean pop stars and Channel 7/Channel 3 Thai movie stars.

Yet being from the social underclass, divorced/separated (more often than not with kids) prior to the bar, the only Thai men they have access to on a serious relationship level are also from that social underclass.

These are low-income earning men that will (generally) resemble similar characteristics to the inadequate man they were once married to. As we know, gambling, alcoholism and domestic abuse is rife in such economic settings.

Again, consider that word “choice”.

Moreover, once a Thai girl has been in the bar, she will struggle to get a Thai boyfriend at all. Therefore, once in the bar, a westerner/foreigner isn’t a choice, he is the only option.

If you know an iota about Thai culture, you'll know that a girl who works or has worked in a farang-style beer bar will struggle to earn the respect of other Thais going forward. Thais, unfortunately, tend to be able to tell working girls / ex-working girls simply by their mannerisms and by asking a few strategic questions.

Of course, few will refer to her as a prostitute. In fact, the word prostitute is frowned upon so severely that Thais seldom label a girl they know to be a prostitute as a prostitute.Two of the more preferred terms are “Poo ying gaan koon” (lady working at night) or “Poo ying haa gin” (lady looking/finding (something) to eat).

A girl who has worked in the bar, regardless of whether she bags a rich farang or not, will suffer a lifetime of gossip and stares from the village folk, not to mention the standard whispers and looks most Thai women endure when they have a foreign boyfriend.

What's strange is that Thailand has an abundance of what one might refer to as average, middle-class single women – university educated and hardworking – yet many foreign men choose to hang around in the bar scene paying for sex while looking for a partner. They then wonder why it all goes belly up.

Not so long ago a friend of mine was in town and he wanted to walk down the infamous bar-laden Soi Nana in Bangkok.

We paced the cesspit of hawkers, child and amputee beggars, ladyboy and female street hookers and plethora of unkempt men. Honestly, it made me never want to walk on that street again.

Rather than thinking, “Wow look at all these hot women”, I thought, “Man, this must be one of the most soulless places on the planet, one that exists for one reason only: for the desperate to feed off the desperate”.

Bar Girls Want the Same Things We Do

A Thai bar girl isn’t a nymphomaniac seeking a life of endless sexual encounters (though I'm sure someone will anecdotally comment that “I met this girl once….”)  as many expats and forum lemmings would have you believe.

No, she is seeking a guy to take her off of the lowest run of the ladder and elevate her and her family’s status to heights that simply wouldn’t be possible trying to run the capitalist gauntlet from her current standpoint.

She also, like every other human being, wants to be loved, respected and valued.

And this is the one thing guys that frequently pursue encounters with bar girls can’t face up to: that underneath all the makeup and forced sexual suggestion, is a girl who wants to be loved acting like a woman who can’t be broken. I think Bob Dylan put it best when he sung:

“She takes just like a woman, yes, she does
She makes love just like a woman, yes, she does
And she aches just like a woman
But she breaks just like a little girl”

And before someone comes at me with a “you're victiminsing women by treating them like children” comment, the above lyrics can be applied to anyone in a vulnerable place in life.

The reason guys hate to be reminded of the human side of a bar girl is because it would take the “She loves it!” shine off of the conquest.

Imagining that one of those girls could be your own daughter or sister brings the conscience into play. It makes guys realize that these girls have feelings and emotions beyond the fantasy of the delirious male ego that believes these girls are more than happy to be exploited for sex in exchange for money.

Becoming a full-time bargirl takes conditioning. Just look at the face of a new addition to a bar, and then return two months later to see her stripped of all that might have been sacred. I have seen it with my own eyes….

I will never forget one very timid girl who looked like a rabbit in headlights on arriving at her new place of work. Her “cousin” had invited her to take up a position as a “waitress”. It took her weeks to be conditioned to “go with a customer”; I know this because the bar boss was an acquaintance of mine for a while.

Three months later my travels took me away from the island, and as my taxi passed the bar on the way to Samui airport, she was swinging on the dance pole, hair extensions, knee high boots and calling out to men walking by.

The way men generally discuss these girls is as if they were born to do it. Again, this is a self-preserving attempt to separate their actions from the cause. Perhaps some do take to it like a duck to water, but the majority have to be broken in and are conditioned by the Mama Sang and other working girls.

The Irony of Similarity Between Bargirl & Customer

Ironically, the average sex-tourist isn’t so far removed from his subject.

He may talk a good conquest to his pals, but secretly he longs to be admired as a man, to be loved, to be held, to be respected and noticed by women; things life may have failed to ever present amicably, or in a way that would be considered “normal” to the average guy.

So he chooses to pay, which may be the only avenue he has to getting close to what he really wants from a woman. There's nothing wrong with that, if the transaction is consensual, right?

Yet all too often in this transactional realm, the man falls foul to the strategic lies of a seasoned player.

He gets too involved. The lines get blurred. He forgets it is a finanical agreement not a real romance and ends up losing not just his integrity but a considerable financial investment.

His bitterness at being “played” then results in increased misogynistic behaviour, and the need for revenge through the verbal degradation of Thai women in general.

Psychological Impact, Alcoholism, Drug Abuse

Can a bar girl have a normal relationship after the bar?

Of course it's possible, and I am sure there are many happy relationships that have lasted the distance between bar girls and westerners.

The amount of foreigners maintaining contact with bargirls and sending money to them once they return home is testament to the fact that in many cases the needy find the needy on common ground.

She admires he complies, she “takes care of him” and he “takes care” (financially) of her beyond the bar. The success rate, however, comes into question when reading all the negative stories foreigners post online.

On the other hand, it should be considered that sleeping with men twice/thrice their age, and men they generally have no physical attraction to, week in week out, will take its toll on the majority of girls.

And no doubt in some cases there is physiological damage similar to that experienced by victims of sexual abuse, albeit the bargirl act is consensual and transactional.

Therefore, it isn’t surprising that so many girls experience breakdowns and urn to drugs and alcoholism and end up in refuges. The reality is that most struggle to ever have a normal, loving relationship post the bar.

The lucky few are able to settle for a retired expat, who is prepared to pay the bills in return for regular thrills. True love really isn’t an option for most bargirls, period. But then what is true love, anyway?

When you hit the bars on a Saturday night, I wouldn't blame you for thinking the last paragraph regarding drug and alcohol abuse and refuges is a little far fetched. I would have thought so many years ago.

Until I taught martial arts at a women’s refuge in Bangkok, that is.

I met well over 50 women there who were victims of bars. Those that had broken down psychologically, those who experienced family abandonment when their parents found out (or rather when the friends and other villagers found out what they already knew), and perhaps most disturbingly, those who were pregnant after having been raped by pimps/facilitators, bar owners or customers.

I was shocked by the stories.

When I tell the “It’s a choice” guys about the refuge, they simple can’t believe it, either.

Neither can they believe that many girls are bought and pimped, and in fact can’t leave the bar until the debt is paid in full. Admittedly this is getting rarer, but it still happens in the very poorest of rural areas.

For these girls, the fewer customers you go with the more your rent accumulates on top of the money that was paid for you to secure the job in the first place.

Of course, not every case fits this template, and there are many variations in circumstance, but the point is that the majority of bar migrations aren't fully transparent, and the majority of girls, however they may seem now, would have been largely ignorant to the life that would become them.

In Conclusion

Three thousand words in and I hope you may now understand why I do not glamourize the bar scene on my blog.

My blog isn’t a platform to speak about these girls as toys to be played with and treated with contempt.

My blog is not a corner of the web that will degrade, marginalize, generalize or spread hatred.

A Thai bar girl is a woman, just like your mother, sister, daughter, girlfriend or wife.

The key difference between the dearly loved women in your life and a bar girl is an education and a level playing field of opportunity, which amounts to nothing more than the lottery that is birth.

I want to end by playing you Mae Sai by the group Carabou. The song is about a girl from the North who goes away to become a prostitute to make money for her parents. She gets hooked on drugs and by the time she returns her mother is dead.

The video has English subs, so don't worry if you don't speak Thai.

Makes you think, huh?

Thai cupid

 

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  1. Well said. It’s largely why I don’t begrudge sexworkers their choices, but at the same time don’t feel comfortable accepting their services. Sure they can be attractive but I’m just not into using such services. I was ‘asked’ once if I wanted a handjob but surprised myself by saying no, just the massage. And frankly I’d be as happy to do it myself.
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  3. Thank you. I’m a funny, very successful, hot (yes I’ll say that) and very open minded woman, who recently travelled to Thailand with my partner. What I saw there was tragic, these desperate leery men and beautiful young women. It hurt my faith in men a little. Though my partner, he had thoroughly researched the sex scene, knew exactly what bars to go to, knew how it all worked, used appropriately themed porn, made out he was “curious” and what he found “turned him off”, yet continued the research, and ended up picking a fight with me then went off and had his... ego... stroked by a bar girl. I’m not sure what else happened but he was mystified at where 1000BHT had gone the next day, his “theory” being that the taxi ripped him off.So I’m now dealing with the person im meant to love and admire, doing that to me, and being one of those many men I observed.My point of the relevance of your article is - my bruised regard for men, and having that hurtfully reinforced by my loved one, is a little bit healed by reading the views of a different kind of man, who doesn’t treat women (Thai, and their partner) as objects secondary to their right to a cheap thrill. And I needed that, thank you.
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    • I think this is quite common. The bar scene, and prostitutes in Thailand in general, are, for those in conventional relationships, a source of intrigue. The idea of a young, attractive woman being available for sex so cheaply is a turn on.One thing about the bar scene in Thailand, and indeed prostitutes that can be found in clubs, is that it doesn't feel like the stereotypical transaction that you might find in the back alley of a western country. The majority of these girls are not strung out on drugs and looking like death: for the most part they are young, healthy and fun-loving. You have a fun night out, go home and get it on, sleep together for the night, have breakfast together, maybe hang out the next day - kinda like a fuck-buddy.All for 20-40 bucks, depending on the negotiation.Men are naturally drawn to experience this and take a bite of the forbidden fruit. There's a mystical allure to those bright lights, high heels, miniskirts and plastered on make-up.Some obviously have preferences and boundaries, but in this competitive market, for the most part they will pretty much sleep with anyone -- unless they are very much an in-demand individual and can afford to choose.Some men just do it once for the experience, others now and again if they are single, and some spend much of their adult life in this world. Most outgrow it fairly quickly, though, and see it for the vacuous, unfulfilling and quite depressing lifestyle that it is.You'll see comments on this post and on other related posts where people argue that it is a choice on the part of the girl and they are consenting adults. Indeed, they are consenting adults, and indeed this is a choice. But when you begin to explore that word "choice" and look into the socio-economic backgrounds of these girls you find the same patterns, as I've explained in the post.The reality is that none of these girls come from middle-class backgrounds, or wealthy/well-off families. The majority are very poorly educated and from fractured upbringings: from backgrounds of abuse, alcoholism, gambling addiction, etc. The majority married young, have children, and have no child support from the father or government social care; they have ageing, poor parents / demanding parents who expect their daughter to support them; and no job opportunities that would provide any sort of decent life for their kids, parents, retirement, etc.But yes, it is still a choice. There are those who choose not to do it, and perhaps many wish they had the resolve to do it - because it would afford them a better lifestyle. Moreover, pretty much every girl has the same goal: meet a foreigner who becomes a boyfriend, either a financial sponsor or a proper boyfriend that release of her duties, so to speak.The thing is, men have this fantasy in their head that these women were born to be sexual servants and love nothing more than being fucked by all these different men all the time. The reality is that these girls grew up with the same hopes and aspirations for their lives as most other girls do anywhere else in the world. I'm sure they do like sex, and I'm sure that some of the interactions they have are enjoyable. But being in the game too long takes its toll. It's also not something that is easy to get out of once you're in.Some do not cope well. Some develop drug problems; become alcoholics; some become victims of rape (and become pregnant); they lose their respect in wider society, particularly once people in their home village realise what they are doing; some are neglected by their families. The people there argue with me on this topic always try to play down any of this stuff and pretend that it doesn't happen. The reality is that I have seen this first hand at a woman's shelter in Bangkok, which I did some work at twice. I will say to people it is a very different experience to see such women without the high heels and miniskirts telling you how handsome you are. In that womens home they are desperately vulnerable people, many of whom have children they can't care for.The irony is that most end up as poor as they went in. Many will never be able to have "normal", loving, sexual relationships. Many will suffer mental health issues, perhaps mildly in the form of anger issues, and others more seriously.Of course the large majority will probably be okay. Some do very well out of it, financially. Others meet a foreign boyfriend who ends up supporting them and their family for the rest of his life. Usually it's a much older man who doesn't really care that she has been a prostitute, which makes things much easier. You might say that this is a big win: By the time she is at retirement age he will be dead and long gone and she will be well off; something she would not have been if she hadn't chanced her luck in this industry.There are victims on both sides, though. Some men get hooked right in, and once back home end up sending the woman money each month. The same woman may have multiple sponsors doing the same thing. Some guys meet a bar girl and get their heart broken when they realise she is only manipulating them for money. Think about those guys in your home country who the majority of women find physically repulsive. These guys never get dates back home, women just aren't interested in. Many of them are virgins. They go for a holiday to Thailand, meet a bar girl and create a fantasy that she can be a girlfriend and that she really does find them attractive. Some even get married, then get ripped off and dumped. Your ears would curl if you read some of the emails I've received over the years from men who have been burned.But for some couples it works out. They get together, she quits the bar, they spend the rest of their lives together. Win-win.Some women are real pros. I used to know one woman in Koh Samui who had the whole year booked up with different sponsors holidaying at different times. I distinctly remember one time on the high road: I saw her walking down the street holding hands with a guy and I had to do a double take, because two days before I had seen her doing exactly the same with another guy. She ran her operation like a proper business. And when she wasn't doing sponsor holidays she was in the bar. She was a very attractive woman, in her 30s. She had made a fair bit of money and built a home for her parents and for herself. When all is said and done she had a fairly good lifestyle: no 9-to-5, worked out at the gym every day, ate well, lived well, went on holidays all the time.But these stories are anecdotal. For the majority of poor, uneducated country girls in this industry, life ends up the same way: back home in the village being poor, except without their dignity and maybe some other problems too.There's a number of possible outcomes: some negative, some soul-destroying, some pretty positive.At the end of the day, though, the majority would never find their way into this industry if their families could have afforded them better choices, education and opportunities. They are human beings. I respect them as such. I've seen the underbelly of the industry, which most haven't. So to me it's very easy to stay away. For a young/old, horny, potentially desperate man, I see the appeal. Life is visual. The large majority of people don't critically evaluate the moral implications of having sex with someone they find attractive. It's a means to an end. In this case he gets the sex, she gets the money. Both needs are met.I hope you work things out with your partner. I hope he comes to his senses and doesn't screw up a relationship for a cheap shag with a hooker.
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      • Thanks for your response - including a bit of perspective on the extent of any “betrayal”. I did, like any open minded curious traveller, spend a night in soi cowboy (that this suggests some sort of consent or complicity in the partners solo actions is a whole other topic), and chatted to a few of the girls learning a little bit about their backgrounds. One asked if I’d had babies and sadly told me that she couldn’t, because her mother has four babies at home. I also had an interesting chat with a nice American male (who seemed to know the owners, don’t know what his situation was I should’ve have pressed for goss ;)) where he’d remarked upon how very young a lot of the girls were though they made lots of money and it was their choice, and my view was that it’s not actually true “choice” if there are extremely limited, and crappy, options available to you, so we had quite the friendly robust philosophical debate in the middle of soi cowboy - as one does!I don’t condemn it all out of hand, and I understand the many shades of grey... it just doesn’t seem right though, I’m not comfortable with a world that endorses it knowing that whilst exploitation isn’t necessarily the rule - it is in reality a fitting generalisation, and I was astounded by the attractiveness of so many young women having to pretend to like the men. At least with prostitution back home, it’s a quick interaction without having to spend many hours pretending to actually *like* the man - they work very hard for comparatively poor pay, so I’d have a bit more respect for the men who pay them well in acknowledgment of the true nature of the transactionI hope the sweet girl I met (who I think fleeced naive me for lady drinks haha) gets to have her babies one day
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  5. Ive got to say you sound like the reason most guys leave their old cranky wives and end up in Thailand and good on them.That said ,You're a typical farang living in Thailand trying to work it all out and fix their problems when really it's not your country culture or concern.Remind me of those bible religious types trying to convert from Buddhist to whatever . I've been living/ going to Thailand since 1986 and I can tell you that there were very few western men ever there then but the prostitutes were still prolific in numbers and guess what Thai men were the main customers and yes people like you were there as well analysing and trying to remedy the evils of thailand . It's simply supply and demand at work here . I think you're painting a picture of the poor Thai girl . They do come to the big cities to make money whether it be prostitution or factory work or whatever and most who are working girls choose it because it's easy money and a better lifestyle than working in a department store or factory. Yes Also a lot of them want to meet a western man to look after them and their family as they do when they meet marry a Thai man . This is the culture and many farangs go to thailand and fall for a younger girl and haven't got an idea in hell what it's all about. You are not correct assuming that Thai girls are all just wanting young men there are many influences in the Thai culture why a woman will marry an older man and I'm talking about Thai /Thai relationships here not just western/Thai . Thailand is a fantastic place to go and meet young and not so young woman and obviously if you don't speak Thai the bars like Pattaya are the draw card. Problem is that the Thai government doesn't have any restrictions on letting undesirable persons enter the kingdom. These are the people that take advantage etc of the girls and cause a lot of problems . Thailand is a class society and that's the way it's always been so there's always going to be an endless supply of young people ( girls) looking for better lifestyles. Don't try to analyse it just relax and accept that's the way it is .Theres so many westerners who forget they're in a totally different country and culture and it's not their country!
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    • Please read the article properly. Your comments clearly show that you did not. Comparing me to a religious Bible type is absurd, not least because I start the article by explicitly stating that I have no problem with casual sex between adults and I am not in the slightest bit prudish.Secondly, I did not say that the prostitution in Thailand existed because of foreigners coming to Thailand, neither did I say it didn't exist before that time or that there wasn't an industry that catered for Thai men. That was not the focus of the article.I did not assume that all Thai women want young men. In the same way I do not assume that all American women want young men, or all English women want young men. You have assumed that I assumed this.The Thai government does have restrictions on undesirable people entering the kingdom. In fact, in many ways it has more restrictions than my own home country. But of course that doesn't stop undesirable people coming in in one way or another.And I absolutely recognise that is a completely different country and a completely different culture. This is part of my life every single waking moment, because my wife is Thai, my daughter is of mixed Thai heritage and my extended family is Thai. Oh, and two of my best friends are Thai.The purpose of this article is to present the reality beyond the bars, to strip it of its perceived glamour and explore the social infrastructure behind the industry. whether you agree with my assessment are not is fine, but please don't put words into my mouth by commenting on things that I clearly have not said in the article.
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  6. In my 30's, I was recently convinced by a Thai friend to come to a bar in Pattaya, where I met a girl. I became somewhat drunk ( I rarely drink, so it's not hard) I took her to the hotel where we did not have sex, but instead talked, cuddled, and kissed all night. We did the same thing the next night. And the next. We kept in contact (when I returned to the Asian country I work in, though I am a Western expat). Perhaps I am a fool for her.On the other hand, her story sounds almost precisely what you have described. She has given me long stories about quitting the bar, and to be honest, every time I think about her there, I want to cry. I never thought it would happen to me, but I may have fallen in love. Or do I just pity her? Can this be reconciled with love? I struggle with my guilt for taking advantage of her- and I struggle with ideas about what love is. Can this ever be a real loving relationship? Do I just want to "save" her? Is this arrogant?I am not a person who has a big problem dating women in my home country, so I ask myself, why this 22 year old woman with a child and a low education with no prospects in life? I feel like a creep. I read the negative stories about these ladies, and I see some of their behavior in her to an extent. . But remembering the things that you mentioned in this blog really puts things in perspective. And all these questions fade to nothing when I am with her. When I hear her voice and see her smile, when I kiss her- nothing else matters. I don't know why.
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  7. As a young twenty year old man, I was curious about Thailand's sex industry and wanted to go have some fun. Happy ending massages, beer-bars and (very) beautiful women, I was certain I would love it. But after reading all this, it feels like it'd be a short pleasure with a long regret. Haven't had suck a reality shock in a long time...
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  8. There's not much in this article that I disagree with, although I think it rather simplistic in its overall perspective. I have talked at some length with Thai bargirls and the story is usually the same: either they are Isaan farm girls or former low-wage earning factory workers or laborers whose young husband either abandoned her and her kid(s) or "died"--often face-saving code for abandonment. Almost invariably she ends up in the bars or go-go's as a means of providing for her dependents back home.So here's a person with scant few choices and none of them good.This I think anyone who is honest can agree on and who has even a modicum of experience in this arena. However, within these facts more often than not lies an implicit moral judgement against the foreigners who nonetheless partake in the sex trade. As if not doing so must necessarily lead to the betterment of the lives of the sex workers themselves. Let us not forget there is a reason these women are in the bars and not in the fields.: Because the fields and the factories are often the greater of the evils, at the least to the actual women themselves, their children and their families. To the women themselves, who must live this life, not to the privileged foreigners who rue their fates from the comfort of their own remote continents; and then, out of either moral high-mindedness, or genuine empathy, refuse to participate in the sex trade, believing they are somehow "helping," or at least not harming, the sex workers by abstaining from that whole milieu.The truth of the matter is that the situation is far more complicated, and not completely unique to Thailand. It's just more obvious in Thailand. There is a mentality that, if you truly understood what the real situation is with the sex workers in Thailand, you would of necessity not be able to indulge in that industry as a foreigner, or you would be plagued by conscience in the process of doing so: unless, of course, you're a psychopathic sexpat. Understanding is abstaining. The mere effort to appreciate the true complexity of the situation becomes tantamount to self-justification. Let me ask you this: How often, in any other walk of life, do we refrain from a behavior because engaging in it would "exploit" another human being in one sense or another? Because if you really believe you live your life, wherever you happen to live it, free from the exploitation of others, then you are truly self-deceived. You do it constantly, without ever thinking about it, and could not completely avoid it even if you tried. Society is the exploitation of other people. This is just to say that there is nothing particularly unique about the circumstance of a prostitute. Or even a Thai prostitute. Try living off of minimum wage in America.
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    • I see your point, and indeed the exploitation of others is somewhat inherent in the way our model of capitalism/the money system is set up, and indeed perhaps inevitable no matter what system(s) is in place.But fundamentally I disagree that this should in some way prevent a person from seeking to ask the right questions to uncover truths with which they can then live a life that seeks to reduce the exploitation of others, and influence others to do the same.How else would positive change come about if people didn't keep questioning the status quo and seeking to improve communities, societies, the environment, the welfare of children, the vulnerable, animals and the world at large?Exploitation can always be reduced. Just because perfection seems unobtainable, it doesn't mean we should stop trying to create a better world.I don't know about you, but I refrain from numerous behaviors that I know cause unnecessary exploitation and suffering, and I know plenty of others who do too.
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      • Nearly allways with articles like this, there is the same singular focus upon women driven to do such things that repulse them due to financial circumstances and inferences that the men who go with such women are doing something that they should not be doing. Well, there are reasons for all human behaviour and this one is not just down to " depraved dirty old men". There exists a concept that how men achieve interaction with women is simply a personal choice, that you decide whether you want casual sex or a relationship. This is NOT the case for a very large proportion of people in society. Many go through their lives without ever being successful with the opposite gender, and it is a lot tougher for men ( any girl, even ugly and fat can go home with a guy from a nightclub if she wants to ). So, given that physical interaction is a natural need of human beings, what are the options of yiu cannot achieve it by using charm, a nice smile and a suggestion? Well, there is paying for it. Any other options? No ( apart from, as I have discovered, dating agencies specifically in the Phillipines, those in western countries don't work). So, there is no option for many! Those men who participate in what you demonise also hate going with a woman who is a mother of children, and who does not want to be doing it with the man in question. What is sought is those few occasions when the girl actually enjoys herself and either generally likes the guy she is with, or at least " gets off" on it. Are these a minority of occasions. Yes! Unfortunately, there has been a big change over the last four years or so. Sexy young girls with some degree of excitement about being in the dancing environment with their friends is mostly gone. The young pretty girls are gone. Now it's 30 year olds who nearly allways have kids they are supporting who don't like being there. They are old, unattractive, disolussioned, almost exclusively Mothers with children, cold and hardened individuals who have no qualms about being totally honest and telling you straight out that they are ONLY doing it for the money. Unfortunately the change that has occurred means that now, things are very much more exclusively the way you describe them to be. Just try having a little wider a perspective. I recall witnessing four years ago, a very ugly man who was in his late sixties, who had a red bulbous nose, sitting at a bar in the LK Metro area in Pattaya with bar girls chatting g to him. The tears were running down his cheeks. He had women chatting to him in a bar. The very nice thing that used to be the case was that years ago, Thai bar girls would often gravitate towards guys who were genuinely nice people. They preferred them to the nasty, horrible, individuals who girls in western countries seem to gravitate towards and whom they then complain about. In western nightclubs I used to see girls throw themselves at the biggest assholes whilst the gunuine nice guys got nothing. In Thailand I used to see the bar girls ( who,then were nice ), wanting those nice guys and turning their backs occasionally on the young handsom guys who had supercilious attitudes about themselves. It used to be good. Now it just seems to have become exclusively a sad business as you describe it to be.
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        • It is a valid point, indeed. There are men who go through life unable to find a woman to have some kind of sexual interaction with. But it is not always as clear-cut as that. There are also many women who go through life in the same boat, and nature would most likely dictate that those people meet and have relationships. But here's the thing, I have a couple of friends who would fall into this category, and it isn't that they cannot find a woman, but rather they will not accept the women that are available to them. They are attracted to very attractive women and are quick to point out how unattractive the women that have been interested in them are, without considering that we all have to accept at what level we are in the game, so to speak. There are hundreds of men in Thailand in their 50s and 60s who could date women back home in their own country of a similar age, but they simply don't want to because they want to have sex with younger, more attractive women, so they would rather live in Thailand and either pay for it, or financially support a younger woman to have access to it on a regular basis without paying, inadvertently.When I think about my own situation: I always did quite well with women through my teens and 20s, and the first half of my 30s. Once I got into my late 30s I began to notice that interest from women younger than me, in terms of offers and everyday interactions, decreased, even in Thailand - I'm not talking about women working in the sex industry but everyday women working normal jobs, etc. The reality is and what I have to accept is that I am getting older like everyone else does. I don't have my hair, I have more wrinkles, I look tired from decades of working late nights, and from having a family. And in general my family genes are not designed to age as well as some others. I accept this. That's life.But still, if I was to find myself single today, I would not be out chasing women in their 20s, because most likely they would only be interested in me if I could offer some kind of financial support or they were working in the sex industry. What would I have in common with a woman in her 20s, anyway? We are at completely different life stages and have grown up in completely different eras with different tastes in pretty much everything. Our hobbies would be different, our life goals would be different, our priorities would be different. So yes, sure, I'm sure it would be wonderful to have sex with a much younger woman, or maybe it wouldn't because I would be conscious that she found me physically repulsive. Regardless, I would rather meet someone more of my own age, who I have a lot in common with; someone that I really enjoy spending time with and talking to. And perhaps that would mean that I would end up going out with someone who, if I met in my 20s or 30s, I would of gone for because I didn't find that person attractive. But I'm on a different run of the ladder now, I am not so attractive myself, and growing into this not so attractive person is what makes you appreciate the other qualities people have. This is a life lesson. You gravitate away from that shallow mindset and looks, while appreciated, aren't the be all and end all. If I was single again today, I would be much wiser in my choice because I would not be so drawn on looks. No matter how beautiful and attracted I have been to a girlfriend in the past, that side of things wears away quickly, and if there is no substance beyond that to support the relationship then it only ends one way.So I agree that there are small percentage of men who because of either physical or social issues are unable to attract any woman, the majority of men I come across over 50 who are in Thailand chasing young prostitutes around doing so because quite simply they want to have sex with younger women. That's it. Whether they kid themselves that the girl actually finds them attractive, that's down to the individual and I can't speak for everyone.
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  9. There is a lot of romanticism about women in your post. As a woman, I do not agree with much of it.However, I completely agree with you that the topic is uninteresting and frankly simple.Who in his right mind would go to Russia and expect to settle down with a whore? Who would think that would prove successful? Men might be tricked into a marriage with a whore, but no one of even moderate intelligence would think that a whore would be likely to make a good wife.It is a case of caveat emptor.Whilst I accept that many of these women are affected by unfortunate circumstance, not everyone who breaks a marriage up for no good reason is a man. Not every unmarried mother is a deserted wife.One thing is clear though - if a dog has rabies, it cannot be a pet. Generally, bar girls have "rabies".In parts of the West where there is little stigma attached to prostitution, there are probably more candidates for marriage. But where there is a very strong stigma, the sort of girls in the industry are correspondingly worse.
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  10. A 20 year old girl leaves home for the city with high hopes of wealth creation. She works punishing hours in a job which barely seems to pay the bills and starts to feel like a prison. Desperate to move up socially, she sleeps with dozens of wealthy men in the vain hope that one if them will step up and fill the financial hole in her scheme. They don't. The void inside widens. By 30 she's used up, whored out, coked up and she fears being replaced by younger models almost as much as she fears the prison she's in. Pride and fear of her parents finding out her situation prevent her from returning home. Some of them end up in rehab.See what I did there? That's London, New York and any number of first world cities. Thailand gogo bars just cut the bullshit in the transaction between beauty and wealth. personally I see no difference between these whores, except that the gogo girls have got their prices written up on the door (to paraphrase Thandie Newtons prositute character in Westworld).But apart from that egregious omission of a discursive angle on the topic, great article.
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  11. An absolutely stunning article and one that really hit a spot with me. You speak (in my opinion) the facts. I have been with various bar girls over my time in Thailand and i can say without a shadow of a doubt that the short time gratification is quickly overshadowed by the guilt of what has just occurred.I am in regular contact with a bar girl that i met and admittedly fell for and the fight in my mind about which way to turn is one that haunts me. I have true feelings for her but to take her out of her current situation is something that i cannot financially commit to. To add to that there is of course the thought that the lady is saying and acting in the way you want them to because you are paying for a service.Until us men take the moral high ground and refuse the services of these ladies then the business will always continue and along with it the degrading, life ruining circumstances that go hand in hand.You sir are a true gentleman and i will think and ponder what you have written for a long, long time to come.
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  13. Nothing you say is untrue, but you don't give the full story.You paint it as though these girls are in all cases faking smiling their way to the hotel bedroom and gritting their teeth. Many times the girl is happy, enjoying the company, often has orgasm in sex and enjoys the money and the nice things she can buy. There is a virgin mary view of women that white-knight (maybe insecure) men often have, and it leads to a blind spot when assessing the lives of these women. It is doesn't occur to them that maybe their daughter would like to go bounce on a cock with no commitment and money to boot, because only broken women do such things.The people who dehumanise these girls are ironically often the people who claim to be in defense of them, and who have nothing but contempt for their life choices and actions.I'm about the same age as these girls. I've talked to many about their lives, and about their sex with older guys. I see the loneliness, the drinking every night, the deviousness, the fun they have, the love of sex in some. They're often up and down. Some will be prisoners to the game, but some have escaped prison via the game.It's a complicated life, and it's not something you can trivialise as a pure trajedy.I guess I'm just trying to say that I think your article is biasd by a contempt for manipulating promiscuous females. I feel very respectful of these girls, and appreciate their company outside of sex.
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    • Hi James, I take your points, but: I explicitly state at the beginning: "Don't get me wrong: I have no problem with casual sex. I am not a prude. What consenting adults do together is up to them."I never once painted it as "faking smiling their way to the hotel bedroom and gritting their teeth". In fact, my post is focussed on the sociological drivers behind the circumstances these girls find themselves in and seeks to open the reader's mind to this idea of "choice" -- despite the truth that they are consenting adults.I think the orgasm is a moot point. An orgasm is part of the sexual response process. Research on orgasm during rape puts numbers between 10-50%. Now, I am not conflating bar girl-punter sex with rape, but it renders the point invalid since such an example shows that orgasm is a physiological response that we can all experience in varying sexual encounters. I have orgasmed with women I wouldn't have found attractive in the light of day...but after a few shots. That's life.Of course sometimes the women enjoy it, and other times they hate it. Of course being able to buy new clothes, a new phone, or give money to their parents gives them a shot of temporary happiness. You are right: some use the game as a leverage to a better life, some handle it well, others end up on drugs, alcoholics, rejected by their families, raped and pregnant., etc.Like you I have seen both sides of the fence. I've commented before about work I've done in the women's refuge -- that gives you a real look beyond the high heels. And I have sat week in week out in the company of the girls while playing pool in tournaments at my local bars and regularly out on the town with friends. I have no contempt for them. I see them as human beings with feelings; girls who grew up with aspirations of a life far different from the one they ended up living. You say you are "very respectful of these girls", so then surely you would appreciate my intention to write a post humanizing and not dehumanizing them?
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      • Maybe you genuinely believe you have no problem with them. But look closely at your language "sell their soul" "sell their body" "needy". You then go on to compare a girl bar to the alleys in SOHO, that is, you see prostitution as something vile no matter how it is conducted.I haven't made my mind up on prostitution. Where does the line between a massage therapist and a prostitute really get drawn. I guess I have no contempt for it and I do not look down on girls or guys who engage it. I could comfortably fuck an older woman with whom I have zero attraction if the price was right, and so I can't judge.I think that is a fundamental difference in how we both perceive the lives of these women. It probably also affects our interactions with them.Yes OK fair points about orgasm, but when the girls say they enjoy sex and have good orgasm many times, they are reflecting positively as though they are enjoying the occasion not just recounting an involuntary physiological response.We could take any respectable high stress profession and talk only about depression, emotional breakdowns, time from family and have a similarly frightening article, but again it wouldn't be the full story.I think I find it degrading to consider all of these girls as victims of life, deserving of extraordinary pity. You can sympathise with their lives whilst respecting them as people who made their choices in life and people who can take responsibility for their choices in life. They are industrious powerful feminine women aswel as lonely and vulnerable. If everybody only saw you as all the things you lack, would you be happy? Pity and condemnation isolates them.There will always be a market for sex, I think tabbooing it only increases the likelihood of tragedies and exploitation.
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        • You seem to have somewhat bought into the sugar coating of Thai prostitution, something I speak of in my post. It is the packaging of prostitution in Thailand that makes it more comfortable for the punter, as he/she is offered a more personalised experience that symbolises a more intimate, "less-transactional" encounter.Of course it is no different to prostitution in Soho of London, albeit with fewer niceties and smiles. Every woman has their own story, but ultimately a woman is selling her body for sex. It is transactional. For most it has its short-term benefits, but also negative medium and long term consequences. For a small percentage it is a stepping stone to relative success; be that an education and subsequent good job, or meeting the love of their life.In the large majority of situations, particularly in Thailand, the woman's socio-economic status has determined this pathway. No young girl in Thailand goes to school dreaming of such a job. By and large these women are failed by society. Social engineering is heavily at play. To that you might contest that I am victimising them, but I would argue that's a cop-out answer, a self-serving one that protects your own interests.I think you are too focused on the act of prostitution and sex and ignoring the individual needs of the human being; emotional support, unconditional love from family, respect from peers and society, simply achieving some childhood/teenage goals/aspirations -- all of which are essentially sold when entering the profession in Thailand. Indeed, you readily admit that you struggling with where the line is drawn on prostitution. Again, the sugar coating adds to that. Indeed though, not every situation is black and white.I have no problem with the sex itself, but for some reason you are fixated on trying to convince me that I have. One might assume that this is therefore where your fixation lies.Your psycho-analysis of me is misplaced. You talk about degrading through pity, but what is more degrading: Me, empowering such women at the shelter by teaching them self-defence, and using my spare time to teach basic life skills at the foundation so they have alternative career choices and can integrate back into society -- the other side of the fence when they are not in mini-skirts and high-heels and being fondled by any punter who fancies a grope -- or you, enjoying their company within the context of the pay-for-play bar scene. This serves your needs and restricts the women to a role within which you feel comfortable saying how much you respect them for their choice and for being "industrious and powerful women"I agree, pity and condemnation does isolate them, which is why I sympathise and take action instead to genuinely try to help make them industrious and powerful. So that they will be respected as individuals, not bar girls, as independent women/mothers, not perpetual objects of sexual gratification.You say: You can sympathise with their lives whilst respecting them as people who made their choices in life and people who can take responsibility for their choices in life. This is a really naive simplification of the circumstances from which the majority of bar girls come from and that which they find themselves in.There will always be a market for sex, I think tabbooing it only increases the likelihood of tragedies and exploitation.Of course sex shouldn't be taboo (it is in the communities these women grow up in - but that's another story) , but again, this isn't about sex -- who has the fixation here? This is about individuals: their emotions, feelings, vulnerabilities, risks involved with exposure to drugs, alcoholism, rape, unwanted pregnancy, disease; and how we can stop dehumanising them and create better opportunities for those who do want a safer, happier, more prosperous future.This is about taking a step back from what we get out of it (cheap sex with beautiful women, great female company) and looking at the social engineering that leads to such a high proportion of young, poor, rural, women (usually single mothers) ending up in a dead-end job that for most does not have a positive outcome.What always baffles me is that for all the punters that say they "respect" the women and speak of choice and the western perspective victimising the women, etc., I have never met one man/woman who uses the bar scene for sex regularly doing anything positive to help protect the women. I have not met one at the foundation helping to teach English or computing, not one doing voluntary outreach with condoms or information regarding safe sex, not one working with an NGO offering free testing for HIV, etc. Because for all the rhetoric, they don't give a shit about the welfare of the women. The women are sexual objects to them. They serve a purpose. Beyond that, they don't want to annoy their conscience with the reality of life outside of opening hours, or what prospects the future might hold for the women. What I do hear is plenty of negative, dehumanising language.Of course there will always be sex for sale, as long as there is a monetary system. Some women/men will choose this pathway at some point in their life. But what relevancy does that have to this debate?P.S. On this point:Yes OK fair points about orgasm, but when the girls say they enjoy sex and have good orgasm many times, they are reflecting positively as though they are enjoying the occasion not just recounting an involuntary physiological response.I have had the same conversations many times. Inevitably they will enjoy sex at times. The job kind of dictates that they be positive about sex though. They are there to make you feel horny not recount stories of awful experiences. Regardless, I feel this is another moot point in the broader context of the conversation.
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  15. HiExcellent article. Which certainly forces the reader to question their own motives.However, I have a question. Why do so many non bar girls still pursue a live with older western men ? As you quite rightly say in your article, many of these women are well educated & middle class .Regards David
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    • Hi David, I think the age gaps in these situations tend to be smaller by nature. Most of the women I know of 25-30 who are educated and have good jobs have foreign boyfriends of pretty much the same age, but of course there are so many variables and so many different types of relationship. Some may prefer older men, some may seek the security (emotional and financial), some may be considered "over the hill" at 35-40+ by men their own age and thus they seek a relationship with foreign man who just happens to be older.
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    • Cheers Lee. I think it's important to present these points for discussion as most writings on this subject seem to focus solely on the aspect of the act (sex), and not the circumstances of the individuals involved and the impact it has on their lives.
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    • Same experience. I have met more than one with degrees and good job potential. One I met recently has a degree in communications and a MBA. I have seen the actual certificates. When I asked her why does she do what she does the replay was: "money is better than what I would get from my first job and anyway I enjoy it" I'd say things are not quite as bad as portrayed in this article. Thai girls are pretty sharp and cleaver, the large majority these days know very well what they're getting into and even more clearly why they want to pursue that this of life. No doubt things were very different years back!
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  19. what sanctimonious patronising garbage you write. Thai girl gets pregnant by unemployed bum. Sounds like you are describing life in the UK. Poor girl goes on the game to a life of misery. Fact is i speak to many who hav worked in shops factory even office they say work is hard not much money. Most of them are lazy spend half of the day in bed all night drinking waiting for a punter to screw. Yes they call me sexy man so what its just one of many lies they tell. So thai society shuns them what do we do to the underclass in uk except look the other way. Lets put our own house in order before we pass judgement on others
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  20. Great to find a blog about Thailand that is not a bunch of underdeveloped 20 somethings comparing the size of their dicks, trading roids and hgh and giving their sagely advice on women and ladyboys.Your comments are largely correct regarding the women you find there in Thailand. I'm glad you are not objectifying these women who are after all just people trying to survive. Unfortunately this is not the case in Australia, where entire towns have been blacklisted due to the exploitation of the student visa system by young Thai prostitutes flooding to Australia to illegally make huge sums of cash per year and funnel it back to Thailand through grey channels. Many held respectable jobs in Thailand. I've seen so many wealthy older, often married, Aussie men strutting their 25 year old girlfriend around Sydney. One woman I know teaches the younger girls that work with her how to scam Aussie men. She receives thousands of dollars of gifts each month from dozens of men which she then sells online. Now she has found herself a sucker from Brisbane who is naive enough to marry her. I feel I should warn the guy, but it is reallly not my business. She also pays off her college so she doesn't need to attend class and can work 7 days in a massage parlour earning upwards of $700 a day in cash. She's been doing it since she was 19 and thinks it's great.This is a sad situation caused by an Australian visa system that is not enforced, greed and a penchant for Aussie men to frequent brothels. The government could step in and stop it, but they won't.
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    • Bars/massage places are required to have the women who work there tested, monthly I'm told. Of course some are stricter in enforcing this than others and clearly some women don't get tested.There are also voluntary organisations/NGOs who help the women with sexual health education and encourage private testing for STDs/HIV. Though make no mistake, there are working women who have HIV and ignore the symptoms through either denial or shame. They go home to die when they can no longer physically carry on.Most of the women who work in bars will hide what they do from their families, though their families will know because of the money they're earning and because gossip doesn't take long to get around the village. However, they will most likely choose to ignore it and stay in denial -- largely because they want their daughter to continue sending money home. Some desperately need it because they are poor/working a menial job that pays very low and are taking care of their grand children; though some are greedy and will milk their daughter's for all they can in order to gamble, drink, buy things and show off to neighbours.
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  22. I unfortunately was in a four year relationship with a Thai woman, in Minneapolis, MN after she moved here from Chiang Mai to be a nanny.. After years of deceptive and selfish acts by her I finally let her go and feel so relieved! She was a pathological liar, sent to America by her family to screw white guys and take their money so she can send it home to her family. She’s now an illegal alien and her main purpose in life is to find a guy to marry for their money and her green card. No matter what she says that is her number one priority. She comes off as a “good girl” who has a “high education” but it’s all apart of one big lie, she tries to make you believe she has a heart and that she’s different than other Thai girls you read about but she is a cheating liar. She was screwing another guy while I was shopping for a new BMW for her. Sex means nothing to her, it's like lunch or using the toilet. She’ll always say she’s the best while referring to all American women as Bitches. She’s jealous beyond belief because she projects – it’s her that does the cheating. Thank god she’s out of my life, it would have cost me hundreds of thousands of dollars over the years. I make about a million a year. I’ve since found a beautiful American woman that’s more of a peer, she's monogamous and trustworthy. I'll never date a Thai woman again.
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  23. After 5 years of regularly visiting Thailand (and reading many competitor sites), just come across your website today. You sir, and this fine article, are 100% right. The more time one spends here, the more one sees it for what it is. Cowboy, Nana and such places sadden me to the core.Well done.
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    • First off I wluld like to say what an amazong article this is. i have a famoly member who loves abroad just outside of Banglok. I have visited now on two occasions with another coming up. Each time I have, the country places a tighter grip on my heart and compassion fuels further to wsnt ro help make a difference. If just one or two woman I can help then Ill start there. Id like to discuss further with you. Is there a wsy to contact you as I have questions and want to discuss further.
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  24. I found what I think is a pretty good article -http://susanjcunningham.com/2008/05/04/prostitution-in-thailand-her-fate-or-choice-2/Apart from bringing up the parents' role and that it's not poverty, both of which I've done to death, it also mentions the role of religion in Thailand not discouraging prostitution in any way, instead promoting the idea that it's fate and that monetary donations will buy you and your family merit in the next life.
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  25. TheThailand Life: What you write does not concur with my 10 years' of experience with this group of Thai girls. In Thailand, certainly there exist alternative choices. Usually, the reason these girls get into this dubious business, is greed and laziness.Just stating what I have been observing here for a decade...
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    • Seriously. Who in the world isn't greedy and lazy, and want to make the most buck in the shortest amount of time. If they had the opportunity of education, then they would work in banking in USA. So next time when you go to a Thai restaurant, remember to tip more than 10 baht (50 cents) and think you are a saint, as I have seen many expats do that.
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  26. I wish I could feel sorry for these girls and their sad sob stories however knowingly sleeping with a married man that has children, stalking down his family on Facebook and posting indecent photos just to expose the affair and purposely destroy lives all while spewing obsenities and vile language as the Thai girl I know of did...I have absolutely no sympathy. Some of these ladies know exactly what they are doing and have absolutely no shame about it...that is far from humble behavior.
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    • Sounds more like a lover spurned than a prostitute plying her trade. Often men get too involved with such women, leading them on with promises of a future. They go beyond the transaction, they stop paying, and instead engage in a love affair. When they come back down to reality the woman is discarded like a piece of garbage and the man tries to return to the sanctuary of his wife and family without a care in the world. Like most women, and men for that matter, who are hurt in such a way, a period of anger follows the sadness and things such as you have described are likely to happen. There is definitely more to this story than just a night of paid sex or two. I knew of a guy who did a similar thing. He was telling a woman he loved her and was going to take her back to his country with him and have a life together. She had stopped working and was planning the next phase of her life. He then dumped her, just like that. She saw him two days later with another woman in tow. Needless to say she was hurt and rightly angry. She turned up at his house at an ungodly hour and gave him what for.Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned.
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  30. Thank you for the blog / article. You hit it right on the head!I also said the same thing to my girlfriend in Thailand last week that I am not judging/saying that it is not good what is happening in Thailand. It is just the social and economic system in Thailand and we can't compare it with our live that we know in the Western world.
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  31. TheThailandLife: Paul, and yourself, Bibblies, won’t address any of this and instead insist on seeking my agreement that the clients they rip off are the victims and the hard done by party. The focus always seems to be on erasing any compassion a person might have by further painting the picture of the devilish, unscrupulous bar girl who has no feelings.
    Well that's a strawman argument, absurd considering that I've had long-term relationships with such girls and have experienced things that you never see. How could I live with and love people and put up with the many drawbacks without having compassion for them? You, on the other hand, despite saying what fine people these girls are, would never live with one.I don't agree that you have 'extensive experience'. You don't seem to have much experience at all. Most of what you've written could have come from The Guardian letters page from someone who's never been to Thailand. It's the same cliched view that poverty is the only reason, all girls are angels, all men are evil. That's why I attacked it. What am I supposed to do? Clap and say, well done, you've pointed out that these women are people too and usually poor? Duh, I never thought of that before?Because I attack your simplistic analysis, it doesn't indicate that I don't acknowledge that most of the girls got dealt a bad hand. They did. But you never acknowledge that a lot of girls in the same position, with the same hand, DIDN'T choose this route, that a lot of countries with worse poverty, DON'T do this and some make it worse through their own choices.About it being more prevalent in Thailand, I'll agree that mixing in the wrong circles will be bad in any country. But lying is more prevalent in the country as a whole too, as is corruption. It's about face coming above honesty. White lies and darker ones...
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    • Bibblies, I've never denied that there are those from similar circumstances who don't end up in the same place – see my last post. It does take a certain type of person, set of circumstances and mindset to be able to go from living in a village in Nakon Nowehere to laying on your back for wrinkly old foreign men every night.I've also agreed with you on a lot of your points regarding family greed and abuse, something only those with insight would be aware of. If you look back through my comments, you'll see that any deeper, sociological, physiological points made about the client you choose to ignore. So it's unfair of you to remark that my debate could come from such an uninformed source. I have also spoken with you personally about my experience.You cherry pick and, like a politician, choose to attack my argument with the populist "farang client" standpoint.Unfortunately, with you, you fail to ever address my points regarding the role of the foreign client; his motivations, actions, responsibility as a human, etc. Why, I'm not sure. Perhaps it's a sore point, one you'd rather not face up to.You readily admit that 'most' of the girls were dealt a bad hand, but won't engage in any dialogue about what can be done to prevent such women ending up in prostitution.I'd say on balance it is you who has the weak argument. Your main points are:- I've lived with/used prostitutes. - They don't have to do it. - Some enjoy it because they are lazy and it's easy work. - Some of the old men they end up with treat them better than their families.You talk of the effects not the causes. You absolutely won't address the fact that western men take advantage of young, uneducated, poor girls who, more often than not, have multiple dependents.How can you deny that? The sex is cheap and readily available and so they go to Thailand. They could choose not to. But why don't they? Why do these men become part of the problem instead of actively seeking to do something positive? Why solely seek to fulfil their own selfish sexual needs when they could engage in helping create a better society with better opportunities for such women?There are so many initiatives they could get involved in. But they don't. Why? Because they don't give a crap about the little "brown monkeys" they treat like dogs for 20 quid a night. Yes, I've heard that expression many times.Instead you paint the client as a martyr, an innocent male simply seeking sex and occasionally taking it further into a relationship where he becomes the provider. But that's no answer to changing the status quo, is it?As I always say, would you be happy with your daughter ending up selling her body to men old enough to be her father/grand dad, because she hasn't enough money to provide a better future for her kids than she had?If not, then what can we do to facilitate a better future for such women?Stop trying to discredit me with this "you don't get it" approach, turn your focus inwards and answer the questions at hand.
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      • TheThailandLife: Bibblies, I’ve never denied that there are those from similar circumstances who don’t end up in the same place
        So you agree it's not simply a question of 'poverty' then? Glad we agree.
        .. it’s unfair of you to remark that my debate could come from such an uninformed source.
        You're informed, but only a little. You haven't lived with any such girls, been a customer, boyfriend or husband for a long period of time. That's a good thing - you've got your own life, etc - but it means you're not nearly as informed as people who have. You've spent a tiny fraction of the time in their lives. How could you know more?
        You cherry pick and, like a politician, choose to attack my argument with the populist “farang client” standpoint.
        You do the same ;)
        Unfortunately, with you, you fail to ever address my points regarding the role of the foreign client; his motivations, actions, responsibility as a human, etc. Why, I’m not sure. Perhaps it’s a sore point, one you’d rather not face up to.
        Nope, not a sore point at all. There was a time when I wished that more girls worked in bars. Motivations? Easy quick sex with girls I wanted the way I wanted it. Happy? Am I proud of my actions? Not proud, but looking at it rationally, my desires didn't force the girls to become prostitutes, in the same way that the existence of murderous anger doesn't mean that a huge industry of contract killers has to spring up to greet it. In the same way, girls in poorer countries than Thailand didn't rush to become prostitutes just because I fancied a bit of sex. Why is that?
        You readily admit that ‘most’ of the girls were dealt a bad hand, but won’t engage in any dialogue about what can be done to prevent such women ending up in prostitution.
        Change Thai society, parenting, education and attitude to responsibility - which is all fucked up in Thailand, I guess. Is that a tall order? You don't seem to agree that these things are as fucked up in Thailand though.
        I’d say on balance it is you who has the weak argument. Your main points are: – I’ve lived with/used prostitutes. – They don’t have to do it. – Some enjoy it because they are lazy and it’s easy work. – Some of the old men they end up with treat them better than their families.
        They're not my main points (although they're all true). My main point is that your 'poverty is the simple reason' theory doesn't stand up. There isn't a Pattaya in every poor country. Why is that?
        You talk of the effects not the causes. You absolutely won’t address the fact that western men take advantage of young, uneducated, poor girls who, more often than not, have multiple dependents.
        I address all the causes again and again (many again above). You don't. Sure, western men take advantage of the girls desire for money. And the girls take advantage of the men's desire for sex. But the 'dependants' (who mysteriously increase in number and size of demands as soon as the girl starts earning) take far worse advantage and do much more to create the problem. Their values are worse, greedy or irresponsible, more insidious in using the girl and cause her to have gone into this line of work in the first place. Ever seen a crying bargirl? She's never crying because of a customer. It's always family or 'friends'.It's plain that you hate old western men (btw, I'm not much older than you are and was much younger when I first went to Thailand). Despite your denials, it shines through your writing and blinds you to other things. Sure, their motives were wrong. But they change and some of them do more good through being with the girl, protecting her from bad influences and patiently giving her a first chance at a good life than her family, friends or, to be frank, people like you who only talk or have a fleeting impact on them.
        Instead you paint the client as a martyr, an innocent male simply seeking sex
        Nah, I've never done that. I've just pointed out that they're human and better than the cartoon picture you draw. They're not innocent. But neither, usually, are the girls. They're both human. (You should really talk more to couples, instead of hating from afar!) Sometimes the girls even initiate the relationships out of loneliness.
        As I always say, would you be happy with your daughter ending up selling her body to men old enough to be her father/grand dad, because she hasn’t enough money to provide a better future for her kids than she had?
        No. This is what I mentioned has happened to Thai bargirls, who you say, have gone into the business to provide for a better future for their offspring. I know some who have worked for years, amassed enough to buy houses, cars and yet they still bring in their daughters to the same line of work. The offspring of Thai-farang parents are far less likely to end up like this. The people to whom this has happened have instilled bad values into their children. Farangs are more likely to break this cycle, especially if they take away the girls away from the immediate bad influences of Thailand.
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        • Once again, I don't hate old western men, nor do I hate older western women. I quite like older women, in fact – although I wouldn't sleep with one over 60, unless she was a super-attractive exception......But then, if I was in a desperate situation; no job prospects due to lack of education, daughter to support and no state or ex-partner support, parents who expected me to support them and to whom I needed to culturally oblige, then I guess if one offered me money for sex I'd do it. It wouldn't be very nice of that lady to take advantage of my situation, though, would it?
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          • I'm sure there are shades of grey, just as there have been girls I've had sex with whom I've actually connected with and liked. ;)Have you ever seen a bargirl pull herself out of the hole she's in without a farang to help? Just wondering, after seeing yet another girl I know move on to another bar. I happen to know she has a draining Thai boyfriend and she's always in debt to loan sharks, though she must have earned a load over the many years she's been working like this.You rarely see a girl leave the p4p business and stay out unless she's had a farang help her and haul her out.There are plenty of exploitative influences outside old farangs...
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          • Wow. And after all that you bring on the 'I wouldn't sleep with a woman over 60 either unless I needed the money' [sic] meme. How about the fact that simply because a woman is 'over 60' she would be so grateful/willing to 'pay for it' you arrogant [word removed due to bad manners and inability to debate without being insulting].Way to go with the 'don't tell, don't swell and grateful as hell' misogynism. You may not be one of the 'old farts' you denigrate here, but you sure as hell think like one.
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            • I'm quite sure you're misunderstanding me here. This isn't a mysogynistic comment by any stretch of the imagination. Generally, I wouldn't sleep with a woman over 60; I mean. I am not attracted to women over 60! I don't think anyone expects a man in his early 30s to be either. Perhaps there are some 60+ women out there that I might find attractive, but I haven't come across any yet. I was simply reversing the example to make a point that: if I was propositioned by a 60+ woman who I didn't find attractive, perhaps I would go ahead with the transaction if I was in a desperate financial position, like if I couldn't afford to feed my daughterAt no point did I suggest that just because a woman is over 60 she'd be willing to pay for sex with me. Nor did I suggest that all 60+ women would be attracted to me either.These are quite surprising comments seeing as the post is pro women's rights and anti-mysogynism. This makes me wonder if you actually read it.I have edited out your profanity and name calling as per the site terms and conditions. Please refrain from using such language.
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  32. I've been researching Thai bar-girls for a piece I'm working on, and it's been sickening reading all the blogs out there which, as you touch on, either fetishize or lambaste these girls. THANK YOU for writing about them as human beings and actually shedding some light on the sociological realities at play here. There are too few men out there like you, and we strong, compassionate women appreciate you.
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    • Thank you, Cheley. The way some men talk about these women is abhorrent, and was what compelled me to write this piece in the first place. Such women aren't in a position to defend themselves, so it's important that we give them a voice and actively work towards seeing what positive change we can bring to their lives. I hope some of the debate here will help you with your piece.
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  33. TheThailandLife: You can’t feed an existing problem and then claim to be free of its cause.
    And there's the thing.The existing problem is not men wanting sex. That's a primal urge.The existing problem and cause is that these parents and this society raise their kids as slaves to money and greed. They're not starving. They never improve their lot or those of their kids. The generations just get used to the easy money. It's mentality. Whether it's the desire of the parents to get money or the desire of the girls (and I've seen enough to see it's sometimes just them), that's the problem.If you took all the western men's desires away and they stopped coming, do you really think that would stop? No. They'd just exploit each other in any way they could. That the men come isn't the problem, it's just a symptom of the real problem.
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    • I'd also like to know how many Thai bargirls you've seen pull themselves out of their situation without farang men (whether previous customers or not), compared to the number of those men who have helped them sucessfully. For the first case, I've seen 0. In fact, I've seen negative numbers because of the women who've stuck with Thai husbands, or no husbands, I've also seen some of their own daughters enter the same 'business'. Often in the same bar. Unbelievable, eh?In very many cases, the farang men pull the girls out of a hole - a hole made by the Thai girl's family, friends and society, together with the girl's own bad decisions. They provide emotional as well as financial support, a mature counterbalance and different, more logical but more compassionate, way of thinking to that they hear from their own family and friends.I've very rarely heard any of the degrading talk that you mention from farang men. Probably I've heard more degrading things said by Thai girls about farangs.You protest that you're not biased but your dislike of old western guys seeps through what you say and may cloud your judgement. Whatever these guys first motives, whatever your opinion of them, they often seem to be better for the girls than their own relatives and friends!
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      • I don't disagree with you Bibblies. I've seen this first hand at the women's shelter. Many women are used and abused by friends and family and then neglected when they get HIV, or pregnant through rape. But I can't see how having to choose the less abusive of two abusers is a solution in any way.Would it be okay for me to adopt a dog that had previously been beaten by its owner, and then be forgiven for only beating it once a week instead of every day?I don't dislike old western men. My dad is one for a start. I just hold disdain for anyone who uses money and status (power) to feed a purely self-serving agenda that takes advantage of the poor, the marginalised, the uneducated.But I ask you, how many of these "rescued" women end up in a happy relationship with a foreigner old enough to be their dad, or grand dad? You only have to surf a few forums to see the same problems and grievances popping up time and time again; "She said she loved me but she was only after the money" - yes, and you were paying for a maid/carer with sexual benefits, so go figure.Moreover, you only have to observe the couples around town, the girl sitting there, empty, bored, unenthused, nothing to say, wishing the life insurance would come quicker. Of course there is the exception; there always is.
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        • Congratulations on not disliking your own dad ;)Do you actually know any of these couples? You seem to be painting a picture that I don't recognise, of very old men abusing young women verbally/sexually/physically and providing little benefit with the girl being very unhappy. Perhaps you only really pay attention to the 80 year olds with the 20 year old garish companions, the ones that stand out?I haven't seen that. In my experience, the men, although usually older than the women, aren't that much older and they don't abuse the women (I hear the gossip!) The women are happy, apart from food cravings ;) They're happy to get away from the stifling, limiting, environment of Thai society, to have some freedom and opportunities, to be in a fairer society or with a nicer partner who doesn't hit them and to be away from the endless problems. Apart from the food and, sometimes, the weather (though not always the weather!), they actually prefer it here.
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  34. Hi. thank you for the blog / article. i apologise in advance for not using caps where required, but i just cant be bothered as i want to type this out as quickly as possible.when i first read it, i appreciated the fact that someone had spent so much time telling the "other side" of the story. i particularly like the sections relating to thai culture and the place it has for poor women from the north, poverty and education. however, after a second reading, i concluded that the focus on the "other side" is the article's downfall. as a piece of writing attempting to pull at the heart strings of its readers, it's OK. as a piece of information, i find it naïve and patronising. as much as i admire the fact that you have chosen to present this side of the argument, and as much as u seem like a decent fellow, i do have a number of questions that popped in to my head after the second reading. some of those questions are;why did you fail to address the fact that many good looking and younger bar girls (and by many i refer to thousands across all of the red light districts around the country) as well as some of the rest, choose to continue to be a bar girl even after they have 5 farang wiring THB10,000 each in to their accounts every month? that's THB50,000 per month. that's big dollars over there. some get much more, and actively choose to continue to prostitute themselves when they do not have to. Noi from Living Dolls i know for an absolute fact was receiving THB80,000 per month and had been for 11 months when i met her. why did she actively choose to continue to work as a prostitute with THB80,000 coming in each month? she could have stopped work very very easily and still have been able to send a fortune up to her parents. and don't tell me she couldn't leave the bar because girls leave every single day. if, as you say, they hate the job so much, why do they not leave once the overseas farang boyfriends start wiring monies in to their account each month?why did you fail to address the fact that when a bar girl lies her way in to the heart of a man desperate for love and attention, she is in fact committing a bigger sin than the man who visits Thailand as a sex tourist. using a false premise to get another human being to send you money is much worse an act than paying for consensual sex. bar girls systematically exploit the desperate tourist in an effort to extort him of his money, on the pretense that they are falling in love with him. this is a well known fact. there a numerous stories of how sex tourists have been caught in elaborate bar girl scams, to the extent that some men have lost hundreds of thousands of pounds/dollars to these women, only to find later on that these women had a thai boyfriend all along and were also trying the scam on other westerners at the very same time. indeed, books have been written on this subject and some stories are horrific and led to suicide. everyone knows the farang is a fool for falling for it, but that does not give the bar girl an excuse to methodically rip off substantial sums of money from another human being and eventually ruin their lives.i am a 28 yr old psychiatry student in England. i have been to Thailand twice. Bangkok, which i hated, then off to Phuket and samui as part of a buck's party 6 yrs later, which i equally disliked. i think the thai culture, parts of which you have alluded to, is one of the planet's best examples of how not to organise a society. i see humanity behaving badly. i lose faith in humanity when i think about Thailand. after returning from my second trip to Thailand, i spent tens of hours reading Buddhist texts, and i concluded that it's all meaningless, generic rubbish. i also know that the average thai is about as Buddhist as my parrot. they are religious by ritual, not by meaning. apparently the Buddhist world knows it, too.when you have the time or inclination, please answer my two questions.thanks
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    • Heh. Good points and I'm on your side. He'll never answer you properly because there's no answer and he seems to want to believe it's about poverty and western male exploitation rather than greed, bad values and exploitation by other Thais. But I'm sceptical about you having just visited Bangkok, Phuket and Samui. Isn't Living Dolls in Pattaya? ;)
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    • Hi Paul,As requested, here is my response...So let’s start but looking at an example of the typical tourist bar girl user: 50-something man sets off to Thailand to hire a prostitute in her twenties, or younger. Why? Because he wants to take advantage of the fact that his money can buy a beautiful girl for the night who, and let’s be honest, if she came from a middle class family, had an education and wasn’t left with a kid or two to support by herself with no help from the state, wouldn’t be working as a sex worker. Neither would she look twice at him in the street.Now, considering his intention, you want to show compassion to this man when he ends up, in his own delusion of grandeur, believing the prostitute – doing her job – loves him in some non-conditional way?Don't forget that this is her job. It’s what the man came to Thailand and hired her for in the first place. It was his self-centered intention to feel special, like the only man in the world, to feel wanted, remotely good looking. In short, to fulfil his fantasies and, for an hour (or a minute) escape his desperate insecurities and lack of self-actualisation.If he chooses to send the prostitute money and buy into his fabricated fantasy beyond the transaction, then that is his choice. Her job is to fulfil that transaction.And let’ not kid ourselves; any man with Google could easy find out in two clicks that one should be careful of taking this transactional fantasy further than the sex.It seems you are trying to make the client the victim, which would be a valid point had he not set out to use the power of his money to sleep with third world prostitutes in hooker bars in Thailand. If he is indeed a victim, it is of his own fantasy, not of the bar girl.At this point I'll merge Bibblies interjection in and respond in flow...I think it’s unfair to suggest I won’t answer such questions and that I solely leave the blame at the door of the western male, when you know that simply isn’t true.I have previously agreed with you that by and large the parents are to blame, as is a non-supportive government, classist/elitist society, regional prejudice and other affecting factors. But surely then you can see who ultimately is the victim, complicit or not.The odds are stacked in favour of the party with better opportunity; education, social security, welfare, access to information, money. The foreigner clearly has the whip hand in such a transaction.Do I have the capacity to feel compassion for the foreign man who hands over 10,000 Baht a month to a bargirl who is sending him emails, claiming to have given up the game and gone back home to her village and spouting “you only one for me honey” lines down the phone, right before she walks across to the Cosmic Bar for work?Yes, of course I do.I feel sorry for any man who reaches a point in life where they feel so empty, insecure and unconscious (in the spiritual sense) that they feel compelled to go to a 3rd world country and pay for sex with young girls to try and plug the bleed of desperation, to own some sort of power for a while, to demand respect through sexual domination.And that's exactly what it is. Having a lot of time in the company of such men, it doesn't take a psycologist/psychiatrist to deduce that their is far more to it than just sex. There's a string of similarities that run through the psyche's of such men, and indeed the racsist, mysoginistic language with which they use to speak of the girls they pay for sex.I still feel compassion for those in this mindset. But then my mum is 68, quite lonely and no doubt wishes she had a man 5 or 10 years younger to bring some love into her life. But instead of flying over to Asia or Africa to buy her way into the bed of a young male prostitute, she chooses to put her energy into helping the needy such as homeless animals.The act is a purely selfish one on behalf of the foreign client, and (usually) a selfless one of behalf of the Thai prostitute. Why? Because she is doing it to give her kids a better life than hers. She is doing it to support her parents, albeit that their needs are overstated and often greedy, driven by material desire to keep up with the Jones’ and live a life of self-indulgence - as Bibblies will agree with me on, I’m sure.You can’t feed an existing problem and then claim to be free of its cause. If you really care about the welfare of women in Thailand and that of future generations, you become an advocate of supporting what is ultimately best for their wellbeing and happiness.And therefore your point about Noi - from wherever - loving the cash is irrelevant. Do you not think her life, no matter how much she accumulates, will amount to emptiness and desperation. What is money if one is spiritually poor, if one lacks an understanding of self, self-respect or the respect of ones peers for simply being a human being – and as you should know, being a prostitute in Thailand is pretty much as low as it gets; animals get more respect.There can be no monetary compensation for the loss of one’s dignity. Moreover, a loss of dignity usually sees the undignified further degraded by society, as we see in the case of prostitution among Thai women. So why perpetuate that? Why not show compassion and kindness instead?But don’t confuse that with offering money for sex and the fulfilment of your own needs.Don’t get distracted from the real issues by the acquisition of wealth. As a psychiatry student, I would have thought you'd see past the vacuity of the money and more at social structures and mental state of the parties involved.Lastly, to address your point about Buddhism, I’ll copy here what I recently wrote in another post: Although Thailand is branded a Buddhist country (Theravada), it’s more a mix of Hinduism, Animism, and Buddhism. For example, many Thais are superstitious, worshipping Hindu deities such as Ganesh, and living in fear of spirits, which is considered by Buddhists to be unconscious, and therefore not part of the conscious Buddhist pathway.That’s not to say many Thais don’t follow Buddhist precepts, but it really is a complex, rather “Thainess” version of Buddhism that the average Thai adheres to.Moreover, culture has a tendency to override/reinterpret religion. For example, I doubt Jesus would agree with carrying a gun, yet more than a third of “Christian” American households own a gun.However, there are many dedicated Thai Buddhists who practice all the precepts. In fact one of my closest Thai friends, Jay, has just spent 6 months as a nun and regularly does 3 month stints at temples helping local communities and such. She doesn’t drink or have sex.I'd like to also add that, in my post, I didn't miss the points you wanted me to address. The focus was on the sex worker and her constant degradation both on and offline by foreign men. I am highlighting their human side and asking people to connect with that. The reality is, if you can't help, at least don't hurt. Don't become part of the problem.I could write a post about the men and their desperation, their unhappiness, depression, alcoholism and all the rest of it. And perhaps I will, one day.Cheers.
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      • bibblies, is pattaya not part of Bangkok, only an hour from sukhumvit? I thought it was a southern precinct? yes I have been to the pattaya district. I thought that by saying I went to Bangkok, you automatically assumed it included this part of town. it took us one hour to get there in a cab, from memory. we pulled an all-nighter. we arrived mid afternoon and cabbed it back in to sukhumvit soi 11 at 9 the following morning. we did walking st and soi 6. I went in to at least 5 agogo bars and I also went in to ibar/insomnia.in relation to the reply to my post, I will commence by thanking Mr blogger again for your time. I would also make the point at this stage that this will be my last submission. it will be my last submission because the intention of my two questions was to test you, with all due respect, but you failed to impress upon me your willingness to enter in to a meaningful discourse that moves away from why bargirls are in the bars to why they choose to stay and how they behave once they've been there for a while. I don't know why you don't want to address my two questions properly. why do you keep banging on about the reasons why a woman enters a bar, and not progress to discuss how she behaves once she's there? why don't you want to learn? I thought you liked helping these girls? knowledge through discussion will empower you, but you shut down my questions. you say you answered them, but you didn't. I don't know you or your blog, but you either won't or can't answer the two questions in any way that suggests to me you want to delve in to the mind of the established bar girl. I appreciate that a blogger builds a reputation and that you firmly sit at the pointy end on the popular side of the bar girl VS sex tourist argument (an argument we are not having), but I know of no agenda on your part, so I will give you the benefit of the doubt and say that you mean what you write.i asked those two specific questions because i wanted to probe the issue on two levels; 1) to see whether or not you would use words similar to "sociopathic" in order to ascertain any perceivable difference between the emotive tone in your article and a reply to my post, and 2) to determine whether or not you were willing to move on from a simple discussion about where the girls come from and talk more about why they behave the way they do (very badly)once they've been working in a bar.I'm not having a go at you. I reiterate that you're probably a solid chap. However, your post in response to mine was poor. I think you are blind on the topic. Your response disappointed me. you fell in to my trap and i didn't even try. Your language is irrational. Sex tourists to Thailand cannot be deemed, in general, sociopathic. If you said that in any convention or forum of professional minds in the fields of human psychology, psychiatry or anthropology you would be laughed out of the room.Getting to the crux of my point... I believe you have a "one-third" argument. my asking of those two specific questions, and you not answering them, proves it. that's what this comes down to. you have a "one third" argument because when you are asked to talk about parts two and three - of which you are about to read - your argument actually becomes nonsensical. I have called it a "one third" argument because I believe any mature, adult discussion about bargirls necessarily has to include three parts, but you purposefully choose to talk about the first part only, because any discussion about parts two and three brings about your argument's unravelling. you don't want to talk about prostitutes choosing to remain in the industry because they want to. you don't want to talk about prostitutes being professional con-women.when saying that our disquisition should include three parts, I suggest that the first part is an understanding of the horrible, culturally and economically oppressive environment in Thailand which leads young women to become prostitutes. the second part attempts to understand why these prostitutes, after being in the scene for a long time, choose to stay. the third part looks at why, after hanging around, these girls choose to enter in to a series of elaborate scams to extract and extort a man's life savings, irrespective of the consequences.I quickly identified in your article that you have an argument very easily dismantled. any argument, as is the cliché, is only as strong as its weakest link. your argument's weakest link comes at the very point in time when someone like noi and the thousands or tens of thousands over the last thirty years like her, who sees the credits in her bank account amass very quickly through having money come in from overseas, commissions on drinks, shares of bar fines and selling sex, wakes up one day and chooses to continue to work. this is after she has sent an enormous amount of cash back up to Isaan and continues to see her coffers overflowing. this is after she has earned millions of baht after being "in the game" for 10+ years (Noi was 29, despite saying she was 22). you said noi's life will amount to emptiness and desperation. so why doesn't she leave? please, tell me why these girls, after accumulating so much money and buying houses and motorbikes and whatever else, do not leave!!! the truth is - you can't! you want to say that their parents won't let them, but I have heard that is definitely not the case. you want to say that society won't accept them anymore, but you know that after so long in the job and after accumulating so much wealth, they're above society and can settle very easily back in any village like a queen. you suggest they are marginailsed for being prostitutes. that's garbage. back in their village, they are princesses for as long as their mum has the biggest house. ive had this discussion more than once with a mammas an. ive read over 200 stickman weekly submissions, detailing first hand conversations and experiences. ive spoken to over 20 people who have paid for sex in Thailand. but your dialogue in all of your answers to all of your posters never addresses this point. at this very stage, the natural progression of any discussion about bargirls enters in to this "second part". as your argument stops here and goes no further, because you can't tell me why noi didn't leave her job years ago, you are a perpetrator of a "one third argument". you do not enter this second part of the conversation because it doesn't suit you to.the "third part" of any meaningful discussion about bar girls commences when both sides are willing to talk about why an established bar girl not only chooses to stay in the bar, but also chooses to enter in to elaborate, multi-faceted, sophisticated and concurrent scamming. my second question attempted to enter you in to this "third part", but you didn't want to investigate it. foolishly, you chose to use the word 'transaction" on more than one occasion, when in fact these scams are the exact opposite. how is a bar girl fulfilling a "transaction" by accepting monthly payments on a false premise? your suggestion that this is a "transaction" is entirely laughable. it is a miraculously weak point. my girlfriend read your article and said on this point, and I quote..." this guy thinks it's Ok for a prostitute to screw a man over just because he's a punter!!". that came from her, a woman. any use of the word "transaction" in the context of a bargirl and a sex tourist only relates to payment for sex. to use it in the way you did, makes me wonder if you have given much though to this general topic at all. you also state that the man is in fantasy. I completely agree that any man who falls in love with a bargirl is a complete muppet. however, why do you not enter in to part three of this three part discussion and convince me why it is OK for a girl to extract monthly payments from a sad and desperate soul? we acknowledge he is a fool. and pathetic. but does that mean the bar girl is justified in her behaviour? I put it to you that your argument falls down here, quite easily, on the point of hypocrisy. if you and I hate a thai society which takes advantage of a young girl's circumstances to the point where she finds herself in prostitution, should we not also hate the circumstance wherein one human being takes advantage of another human being by extorting him of his money? why don't you see this point? please acknowledge that bargirls enter in to a machine-like system full of lies and deception which operates to extract and extort a sex tourist's life savings if he's dumb enough to fall for it. why don't you want to get stuck in to understanding why these bargirls ruin thousands of lives every year, just for money, when they are already making ten/twenty/thirty times the national average salary. this part, part three, as does part two, is staring you in the face, yet you chose to ignore it in my post. if you choose not to concede this point, it automatically follows that you find it acceptable that your mother, or my mother, be extorted of her life savings were they inclined to fall in love with a male sex worker in Africa or Asia.Blogger, I dislike thai society more than you do. I hate the fact that the country is the way it is. i will never go back. I have never paid for a prostitute and never will. if you live there, i think you're settling for a crappy life. apparently the white man is treated like garbage over there, even if you aren't a sex tourist, from most of the locals and the authorities. but ive also been to parts of Africa and south America and can tell you they're shitholes too. we live on a planet where humanity has done a horrible job. I give humanity an F. in fact, I wouldn't be surprised if we kill ourselves off within 300 years.you might also like to know that, whilst ive been typing this post, thousands of guys have been jacking off to animal porn. thousands more over kiddie pics. your attitude toward the Thailand sex tourist comes from a width of knowledge about man and his attitude to sex that is a millimetre wide. it's not your fault, but you need to acknowledge it. you have no authority on the matter, at all. neither do I, but you're the one defending bar girls to the hilt when you know they ruin lives. it's not fair. the men don't deserve it. I don't know why the thai sex scene has created this machine of long term deceit. I don't know why thai women push men of balconies in pattaya every other day. and neither do you. and that's my point. you don't know enough to put all of the blame of what you think you see on the punter and the society. from where i stand, the bar girls may start off innocently but turn in to horrible creatures. not out of necessity, mind you, but out of greed! and out of all of those reasons we hate to see in a human being. maybe they're nasty before they get there?!on a sexual level, there are tens of thousands of acts of men behaving badly far worse than the average visitor to pattaya. just look at japan. they adore the sexualisation of children. do you know about japan? those guys are completely bonkers. vending machines were once filled with used school girl panties. train groping went on unpoliced for decades. look up "enjo kosai" - thousands of Japanese men every year attempting to get in to the pants of girls in junior school.in conclusion, I put it to you that you are the perpetrator of a "one third argument". you only want to talk about one third of the discussion. you don't want to talk about the fact that over the years tens of thousands of bar girls stay in the job for as long as they can, even though you say they hate it and many other commentators say they don't. you don't want to talk about the non-transactional attitude they have to prostitution, wherein they embark on doing and saying everything they can to juice money out of sex tourists even if it ruins their lives. I learned nothing form your opinion piece because earlier this year i read some pretty decent articles on the subject of the plight of the modern day Isaan girl. from your response to my post, I can only make one suggestion. if you're serious abut helping bar girls, enter in to parts two and three of what constitutes a proper conversation about bar girls. find out why they hang around, when they don't have to. find out why they think it's OK to extort money from sex tourists, after the male tells them he loves them, and why they push westerners off balconies. learn that, then you're really helping. ask them, if you care enough. learn. empower them by listening, learning, then acting.it is only misogyny that leads one to believe that prostitutes are 100% victims, 100% of the time.GOD ( IS THERE ONE?) BLESS YOU AND YOUR VOLUNTEER WORK. KEEP WRITING.
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        • With all due respect Paul, you are writing absolute twaddle.I addressed your points, but you have failed to address mine. You're just ranting on making wild generalisations about what I think.Why are you obsessed with the behaviour of a bargirl once she is in the bar? What do you want me to say about it? Our concern should be to create societies where women don't end up in such places, losing their soul and dignity.I would have thought through your study of the mind that you of all people would understand what happens to those who feel marginalised, victimised and lacking in love and respect from others. The bar is ripe as a place for such a person to end up.And yes, of course they end up ripping off foreign clients (hell, they used to ask me to help them with their emails), taking/selling drugs, drinking every day, stealing, etc. It's exactly the same pattern that young offenders from difficult backgrounds fall into if they aren't given the support they need.And yes, there will always be some women who enjoy it, who choose this as a primary profession even when they have other solid options – and do very well out of it. There always will be prostitution. What's your point?Yes, underprivileged, uneducated - usually with kids to support - women end up in bars in Thailand. Yes, foreign men take advantage of this because they want sex with young women for cheap and they have money. Yes, the girls end up resenting themselves and the men that use them for sex for money and in many cases work angles to squeeze more money out of the men.It's a sad situation all round, one which I'm sure you wouldn't want you mother, sister or daughter to end up in? And one I'm sure you'd be disappointed to find your father exploiting.You seem obsessed with the money they make, as if that gives them the upper hand, as if that will bring them happiness.Without wanting to sound condescending, it's pretty pointless me entering a debate with you on this matter as you have a serious lack of understanding about Thailand; it's history and culture and societal dynamics. This was clear in your ignorant and misinformed remarks about Thai Buddhism in your first post. And now you are saying things like " they’re above society and can settle very easily back in any village like a queen"...and "back in their village, they are princesses for as long as their mum has the biggest house. This is complete rubbish. There is no greater shame than being the "sopenee" of the village.I am not doing volunteer work. I taught self defence at a women's shelter where many prostitutes end up after being beaten up, raped, hooked on drugs, pregnant with HIV, disowned by their family through shame, etc.
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          • I agree that reading 200 Stickman submissions doesn't count as experience but, as someone who's probably known and continues to know more bargirls than both of you put together (not that that's a good thing ;) ), he's not talking complete twaddle.To answer his first point (why they start): bad families and friends, lack of values and responsibility, poor decision-making, poverty or desire for money, upper and middle class Thais wanting to keep the education advantage and a society only willing to look the other way and leech off each other. And a few girls don't really seem to care what they do for money (I guess in the same way that some people in my home country will commit crimes for money. People have different values and yuck factors)To answer his second point (why they stay after they've got enough money for their original stated goal): they get used to the lifestyle, the excitement, the easy money and, most of all, the feeling of being powerful in their own little circle. Of being the person to come to for a 'loan', to provide, to solve a 'problem' (money again). Of having and being able to show off the same goods as a middle class professional might have. I see girls continuing to work to pay off instalments on ridiculously expensive cars that are mostly for show. And, of course, laziness plays a part. It takes a hard-working mentality to be able to go back to a lower wage, even if it's to a respectable job. I've seen girls fail here. Perhaps they simply never had this kind of mentality? Hard work isn't a value that even many Thais seem to associate with themselves.Third part? Why, after hanging around, some of these girls choose to enter in to a series of elaborate scams to extract and extort a man’s life savings, irrespective of the consequences? Actually, I haven't seen very many of those. Perhaps men are getting wiser with the advent of the Internet? But some girls can be nasty and cold and trample over a man's life without feeling even a little bit bad about it. How? Because (at least some of) Thai society is like that. It's not a Thai-farang thing or a woman to man thing. They do it to each other, even to friends and family. They exploit each other with abandon, leech off each other, lie and cheat each other. Of course, this happens everywhere in the world but it seems to be more prevalent in Thailand than my home country and it often sickens me. Something about different values ('face' coming above honour and honesty, I guess? And people don't seem to condemn others as much either, which just encourages such behaviour to continue)
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            • I think you’re right on the first two parts, but on the third part I don’t agree that lying and cheating is more prevalent in Thailand. If you hang around red light districts with hookers and hustlers then you can expect to eventually find yourself in negative situations. The Thai people I mix with are on the whole very generous and genuine people.A final thought to this string of rather provocative comments…what’s strange in all this is that I wrote a post about having some compassion for these women instead of degrading and berating them and talking about them like animals: objects of flesh to be abused for money.But instead of agreeing that this should be the case, since they are human - our mothers, sisters, daughters - Paul, and yourself, Bibblies, won’t address any of this and instead insist on seeking my agreement that the clients they rip off are the victims and the hard done by party. The focus always seems to be on erasing any compassion a person might have by further painting the picture of the devilish, unscrupulous bar girl who has no feelings.But let’s look at the reality:When you break it down, the average bar girl hasn’t had a very good life. In fact, through my experience, which is extensive, as I have shared with you previously Bibblies, about 98% were born into impoverished families, never finished school, were married and or had kids by 17-19 and left with very limited opportunity as a single mum with zero support from the father(s) of their children.Yet the foreign client, although he may experience a loss of money in his encounter, has had far better opportunity in his life. The reason the elder man example is so prevalent in my comments and approach to this subject is a) because the stereotypical client tends to be 50+ and b) because like most people I would expect a man of this age to have the insight, dignity, humility and respect to not exploit this opportunity for such selfish gain to begin with, even if he does indeed become a victim.That said, I still have compassion for anyone who naively falls into a trap and is victimised. I have stated more than once that I feel compassion for both parties – desperate people often attract a mirror of themselves, but seldom does it have a happy ending.But the focus of the post was never meant to be foreign men. This post was triggered by the attitude of foreign men towards these women: comments on forums, things I’ve heard from associates, men in bars and alike. This post was about asking people to look at the situation with humaneness.So, regardless of my view of the archetypal man who comes to Thailand to sleep with young prostitutes, and regardless of our opposing opinions of the things bargirls do and the way they feel inside, and about how society sees and treats such women, do you not have compassion for their rather unlucky lot in life? I mean, wouldn’t you want better for your daughter? Regardless of whether she was making 100,000 Baht a month?
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              • I've known bar girls - let's call them prostitutes - because that's what they are. Who when offered the opportunity to better their lot in lives, choose to be bar girls. I've seen them argue with their village neighbors that they're not in the wrong for choosing this profession because it offers them a FUN way to make money, NICE THINGS, and GOOD MONEY.I've seen many women turn down the opportunity to leave. I've seen older sisters earning big money encouraging younger ones to enter the bar rather than helping them through education and improving their station.You, sir, know little about Thailand and the Thai social structure.And to think Thais know it well is farcical. Thais know so little about Thailand themselves.I had a prostitute tell me (and no I don't use their services) that this is a fantastic job.Now go and spend time with Thai prostitutes to see why they want to stay on in the industry. And don't get suckered into their deceptive stories about how bad it is.Their short sightedness about the risks and dangers of this work is overlooked by their own families who they will choose over any foreign man even if the foreign man provides every opportunity for her and her family to transform their lives.
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                • "You, sir, know little about Thailand and the Thai social structure".Is that seriously aimed at me? With all due respect, I very much doubt you could keep up having a conversation with me regarding cultural and societal structures in Thailand."I had a prostitute tell me (and no I don’t use their services) that this is a fantastic job."Anecdotes from the odd prostitute you've spoken to doesn't quite equate to field research, social studies and community support work.
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    • You are correct in your observations about the situation. I believe that the line gets crossed when one party in relationship is deceived and suffers large financial losses through lies and deception. Usually the man. Majority of the women have husband or boyfriends in the background who usually is the person who is the true beneficiary of all your farang hard earned money sent to your girlfriend.
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  35. Nice story, yet not all simply forthcoming or honest or reality to you're story(On my opinion) It's a big goverment system fail. Third world land with a corrupt government and no system of support or social behavior and social backup nothing. Yet thai people them self created a instinctual social planIn Thailand you are alone, and you alone are the one to provide you're self and familyThis is a instinctual manor of life.Thai raised differently to western to this.This system is the Onley good and structural thing in Thailand.Thailand have no pension or anything else to fall back wen old of age or verry sick. Or support for childeren.Thai man not forced to take care,. And fuck like rabbits. And go as they please. With no guilt or respect to take care his childeren or his wife. There is no social backup system.And therefore it all comes to her.If you need to survive u will do anything for it.Thus far i respect thai bar girls but same time they are stone cold hearth less lady's that shaped this way, forced to be this way. But all this can be stopped! If the government can make a stop to this.,But will they ever do. Not when the economy relies on sex tourists. Why should they? As sex sells and will always do.It's give and take. I don't feel pity for all bar girls, but I know some never make much money. But many of them do this by choice, and many are forced to do this too.It's truly a choice, and at same time not a choice, it's also forced up on to survive in this harsh world.Do remind yourself that sex trade is the oldest job on the planet.But my opinion is that the thai government is to blameLand without structural social society is to be exploited.And do I remind that a thai lady sell her body for 5bth to a thai for buy food for herself. And do remind this way go's back a long time to out of this world.So choice or no choice you are forced to survive. You can say no but than you die.So my point to this is that no one cares not falang or Thailand itself. And many bar girls also don't care. It's a way of living.If u think as western Man you fuck a bar girl, in fact she fuck you better, beause she extract you're money.Would i do same if i was a thai bar lady. Yes I do. Cause what else can make big money? How else can I support my family and baby this good? What better can u do if you not educated? Knowing also this can make more money than a doctor can make in Thailand who is indeed educated.Survival in this world is a number one rule.Do all thai bar girl want to be saved by a falang? No they don't.Are all thai bar girl bad? No.Thai love is different to western love.For Thai, family is number one, after family, baby, after baby you.If a bar girl stop support her family she will be outcast for life. For this many bar girl who break there bond with family will be outcast.They chosen to do.So do you have to feel pitey for all thai bar girls? I would say a big no.
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    • I'd say it's Thai society to blame rather than the government.I'm privy to a lot of bar girl Facebook pages and it makes me sick to see the amount of mother worship that goes on, photos of the girls prostate on the floor, bowing at the feet of a patently fit hard-faced woman in her forties. The girls swear to get them enough money to buy a car, more extensions to a house, anything. The hard-faced mother just pulls the strings, raking it in, knowing full well in her heart what the girl does for this.In UK society would a mother allow that to happen to get something she didn't really need? Would she tacitly, coldly, encourage it like these mothers do? No. My mother would never do that. That's why it doesn't happen.The whole of society condones this, encourages it. Mother worship combined with lack of responsibility (both from parents and from young males fathering children) and lack of condemnation. Added to that, lack of questioning and proper education so they're never encouraged to break the cycle.
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      • Yes, I've seen this madness on Facebook as well. I've been privy to Facebook profile of women from Chiangrai who are criticizing their village neighbors for wreaking havoc on their lives because those women have ventured off to Malaysia to work the sex scene and bring home money to their parents. It puts immense pressure on these women who live 'normal' lives back home.I've seen the rebuttals from the sex workers. 'What's wrong with what we do? We get to have a fun job, buy nice things, have a good life, make more money than working in an office."I've seen women post on their profiles things like "I will do anything for you mother but please don't ask me for a Benz". And she'll get 100s of positive reactions to that post from her friends.There are aspects of every culture which one needs to be objective and critical about. It's the only way to move forward. But the Thai culture itself has been designed around doing nothing about it. It's either simply "there's nothing we can do about it", or "it's up to them" or silence. There's a real lack of social conscience and understanding how damaging these aspects of the culture are to the society.It's time Thais stop dancing around this issue of prostitution and the effects it and materialism are having on the society.Want to know why the word "prostitute" is a bad word in Thai? Because it's the truth. Thai culture is not designed to be straightforward. That's why these issues exist and linger on. No one is motivated to be honest about what's going on.So either they are lying about how horrible being a prostitute is. Or they're lying about how great it is. Either way, they're being dishonest.
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  36. I went to Phuket for a short holiday and ended up hiring a go go girl for one night. It was my first experience of sex with a lady. Till the time I never had sex. I felt a great attachment with the girl after that. I paid a very high amount to the bar and to the girl as well. But I couldn't sleep for days thinking of these girls' future and life. It makes me restless even today. May God give them the due respect.
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  37. This is an excellent post. It is well thought-out and very nicely written. Compared to most of what is written about Thai women, this is really a breath of fresh air. Even the comments are generally thoughtful and non-trollish. Many comments raise some fair points about problems in the Thai social and familial structures, but as arguments they just don't trump the thesis of the post, that "we" would never accept these so-called choices for our sisters. The blame for the situation is far-reaching in Thailand; that doesn't excuse Westerners who implicitly support this industry. How refreshing to read an article that gives Thai women the agency that is owed to all human beings.
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  38. I've been reading this trying to be objective to both sides of the discussion and have come to a few conclusions of my own. I live in the not-so glorious state of Kentucky in the U.S. where the per capita income is one of the lowest in the country, education is publicly available, yet overburdened, and most people only know how to think based on how they were raised or whatever garbage FoxNews delivers to them. I do not believe that prostitution is a WANTED dream path for the vast majority of women(and men) that find themselves within its clutches, but it was still a choice they made. I dreamed of being an astrophysicist at one time, but I made CHOICES that screwed that up and I'm stuck working at Walmart for goodness sakes. Pride, social pressure, family obligations, and mistakes be damned, it's still a CHOICE. I was born to a poor father with little education, a mother with little education, and a family from a blue collar background. Still yet, I had choices that I could have made to change my station in life and made mistakes. Minimum wage here in the states is at present around the equivalent of 37k Baht per month. Rental of a studio apartment in my city is at the lowest $279 US per month(around 9k Baht). When you tie in efficiency costs of around $70 a month(another 2200 baht), then throw in my child support $200 US (another 6.5k Baht), $170 in health insurance (5.5k Baht), $265 car payment (8.6k B), car insurance @ $202 US(6.5k ish again) you see that I'm in debt just with bills. What about food? Drink? Some would say 'You don't NEED a car, but live here and try to get from where I live to go pick up my son at 9pm EST on the bus and walk the three miles with him after exiting the bus at 10pm just to get home and have no food for either of us. Oh, what about when I work? Daycare costs are astronomical. Income inequality is global, the haves make sure to press the boot-heel into the throats of the have-nots, no matter what nation you're in. There are prostitutes here, sure. There are go-go dancers that DON'T screw for money and make a good living. Everywhere sex sells. You wanna know why? IT FUCKIN FEELS PHYSICALLY GOOD to get that release. Is it right? Maybe not. Is it exploitive? YES. To both parties I would say. Some of the 'She must love the cock or she wouldn't ride three with a smile' bastards likely deserve a warm spot in some manifestation of a hell for their opinion of someone just trying to make the best outta what life threw at em. I could sell drugs to increase my income, but do I? No. It's not a risk I would want to take. Do these girls want to sell their bodies? Likely not, but it is a risk they are WILLING to take, no matter how you posture around their life being sad, or their culture willing them into it. The culture over here wills people into a greedy consumerist gimme gimme state of being that some, by CHOICE, manage to avoid, but the vast majority get swept into it. Maybe every nation needs to cull the heads at the top and remake it. Eventually, personal opinion will once again become law or rules that others beneath the upper crust will have to heel to. Eventually greed will corrupt even the patriots that strive to see people freed from oppression. I know it's a long rant for a first post, but I just felt a need to vent a bit. Try being an unattractive, broke ginger kid in the states and see how many women flock to your banner to have a loving relationship. I need release from time to time. I've never paid for sex in the straight up way they do in prostitution, but ALL MEN PAY in one way or another. The women who take advantage of that are applauded for doing so in a shady and deceptive manner while the women who do it out in the open are frowned upon. Another thing to check is the population. Women outnumber men near 4-1 world-wide. Women could, if they would stop posturing and competing with one another, gather, organize, and overpower the men through sheer numbers and demand for this type of ridiculous stuff to stop. Have you ever given thought to why they haven't yet? Hmmmm.
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  39. My woman already warned me: 1) You probably won’t want to be with me after you meet my family. (realizing the potential burden) 2) You probably won’t like my country any more once you speak Thai. (it already feels childish) 3) If after that you are sure you want to move, study the Law here before buying anything. (with her name on it)
    I'm quite impressed with her warnings! ;) Behind most bargirls, I think there's something bad lurking in their families. It's not just poverty and she's probably alluding to that. You may soon tire of the childish arguments and concerns, as you suspect. 'Face' is childish in itself. I wouldn't buy any property in Thailand. One of the main reasons my wife and I moved away from Thailand was because of the unfair laws and the lack of trust in the system. A place where you can't own property or could be chucked out any second? A place where the elite keep the majority subdued by encouraging unearned deference and superstition rather than offer a fair education to all? Not for our children!
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  40. As my (bar) girlfriend says.... "everyone is always different". You can generalize a cultural image, but not it's people. When you try to understand why they don't just slave for essentially minimum wage and simply survive you need to realize they are not Farang with western work ethic (the lower class anyway). As a Canadian I find it helpful to realize that they are an indigenous population, such as the Native Americans of my country. They come from the simple life of working the land and being happy. When you surround them with materialism how can you expect them to adapt maturely? Were you raised on rice water as a baby? Did you watch your mother eat only rice for dinner while you were allowed a small piece of fish? Were you hauling concrete blocks around at the age of 9? Did you see all of the other rich kids eating ice cream while holding their stuffed animals? I bet you would have cried when your mother handed you a small towel with an elastic holding it together when you asked for a "mickey mouse". Try to understand the young mind of these girls where their dreams developed. Throw that mind into the false promises of the bar scene. Once they upgrade their lifestyle there is no going back. This is the same in the West. Of course we have credit cards so we don't have to sell our bodies.
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    • Jim: When you surround them with materialism how can you expect them to adapt maturely?
      I'd expect people to not sell themselves or, more importantly, their children for the sake of a shiny new object. But that's just my expectations. Maybe I'm funny about that.Were you hauling concrete blocks around at the age of 9? I bet you would have cried when your mother handed you a small towel with an elastic holding it together when you asked for a “mickey mouse”. I think I was doing paper rounds and chores. I might have been playing with bricks. I have a small daughter and she's as happy with a towel and piece of elastic (probably more so!) than with a Mickey Mouse toy. I try to play with her rather than dump her with my parents and I don't sell my butt to buy the stupid Mickey Mouse toy. Parents are supposed to teach you what matters and what doesn't. People adapt to their budgets. That's part of life. I played with sticks and stones. They were free and, as far as I know, still are. We didn't have credit cards.You're 21. I first came to Thailand when I was about your age. There was a lot to learn and you can fall for a lot. Try looking at poor people who don't sell themselves or their children just to 'look big' in front of the village.
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      • It is more than a shiny new object. It is quality of life. A solid waterproof roof over your head, a bed to sleep on, and a full belly at the start and end of each day. I am sure your daughter has more than just a stick and a few stones. The simple fact that you have the time to play with your daughter and not dump her shows that you can not relate to their situation. Most of the time the Fathers ditched the family and the mothers are working 19+ hours a day. Some of these girls had NOTHING. Not a small piece of candy to reward good behaviour or a real toy with a face they felt they could tell their feelings to. When put in school having their toes poking out of their shoes by second year and heavily stained clothes to match. My point is having nothing while being surrounded with materialism at a young age is where these minds come from. Comparing your life of paper runs, chores, and quality time with your daughter to lower class Thailand seems unrealistic to me. Maybe I am silly in my thinking but you still did not wake up at 3AM to help Mom prepare food to sell, make and stack bricks in the early morning, bike to school for a half day, then go back to bricks until dinner. It isn't about comparing anyway. It's about understanding. I may be speaking for a small %, but I have heard enough and seen enough of them to feel confident doing so. I am in no way saying that their choices are positive or that I would have done the same. I am just trying to relate to their situation. I'm young and have much more to learn. I am not sure exactly what you mean, but I certainly hope I am not "falling for" anything.
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        • The simple fact that you have the time to play with your daughter and not dump her shows that you can not relate to their situation. Most of the time the Fathers ditched the family and the mothers are working 19+ hours a day.
          Try again. I've known more bargirls than you've had hot dinners (and have lived with a few).When I say 'known', I mean known, not just your first trip where you think you know everything but you can't even speak Thai. (How can you think that you really know anything when you can't even understand their language?)I've had about 20 years of knowing such girls. So I can pull up specific cases I've known where they DID have time for their children, if they wanted, but chose to spend their time instead going out with their 'friends' or boyfriends rather than returning home. And among these are, of course, people not working 19 hours a day. (That you should even think an average bargirl works 19 hours a day is laughable). Perhaps they're taking clues from their own parents, where they seem to regard the children as a pension?Try living with a few, for months or years, and then come back to me and say if you think the same way. The families usually have a lot to do with it.I hope you're not falling for anything. I wouldn't take what anyone says at face value. You've only heard one side of your girl's story. But you're young anyway. You could afford to lose everything and start again.
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          • I actually lived with a bar owner for 1 month in the South. Following that I stayed with a Farang and his Thai wife (and her family next door) in their humble abode in the mountains. I ended my journey staying a month with my current (bargirl) girlfriend. So I am not saying all this simply from eyes on the street and bar stories. I have had many intimate conversations with these people. As I said before I may be speaking for a small %, but I am fairly confident they are not throwing b.s. at me. There would have been no reason to do so. I can read and write more than half of the alphabet. Vocabulary is still lacking along with tone distinction. I plan to have it down before I go back in a few months so I can really see what's going on. I feel bad that you have formed these opinions, but I am sure it is for good reason. Thank you for sharing your thoughts! Maybe one day I will see Thailand through your eyes. My woman already warned me: 1) You probably won't want to be with me after you meet my family. (realizing the potential burden) 2) You probably won't like my country any more once you speak Thai. (it already feels childish) 3) If after that you are sure you want to move, study the Law here before buying anything. (with her name on it)
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  41. What do they do when their looks fade? Assuming that they haven't been scooped up by a man with more patience than sense?Usually they drink more. They start to lean on their younger siblings or more naive younger girls, to 'teach' them. They may encourage village friends or relatives (even daughters) into the profession and then mooch off them. They may, if they're lucky enough to get someone else to stump up most of the cash, even start their own bars and have girls working for them. (Some would say exploit. But apparently that's only a word used for white men, not leeching parents, 'friends', or relatives.)With the language barrier and exotic location taken away, there isn't much mystery about it. In the US, they'd be on Jerry Springer. (Is he still around?)
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    • @Bibblies: I think there is a lot of truth in that. And psychology studies on those who've suffered mental and physical abuse support this theory - that the abused often becomes the abuser.
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  42. I very pleased to have read this article, it has helped me to understand the culture and the dilemmas facing bar girls(I am to marry a girl younger than me)and their families. God forbid being born the eldest girl in a poor Thai family. Where do they go and what do they do when their looks fade as they get older. I am happy to offer my girl marriage as a way out, I do love her and hope she feels the same, she says she does. I treat as I would an English woman with love and respect and put her past away. she knows no Thai for her now married once before and 37 years old. I regret the shame she must feel though going back home with me. I hope to make her happy
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  43. I can agree with this article 100%. Recently visited Thailand with intent to discover as much culture as I could. I went from South to North meeting Thai people from all walks of life (Engineers, 3D designers, bar owners, travel guides, and bar girls to list a few). All of them were willing to tell me about their country and how things work for them and where they came from, except with bar girls.The experience was outstanding for me. I had a bar owner take me to his home near a hilltribe village and show me his small farming project and family's day to day lifestyle for a few days. I was invited to a Christmas party with successful business people and introduced to one of their sisters. I had Thai style New Years dinner with the employees of the guesthouse I was staying at along with a few of their family members. I even had a bar owner close down shop to take me and her employees fishing for the day. This is truly an amazing country full of amazing people.My introduction to the bar scene: I exchanged life stories with a bar owner and became good friends in a few days. She was in a moral dilemma about having girls working in her bar. She could not get people to stay for more than a few drinks or a game of pool and was already in debt with some (not so nice) moneylenders. I had seen them come 2 days in a row and argue with her in Thai. Thinking that I had a good idea of what was going on I asked her about the situation. She told me and I offered to lend to her for a few days. Might I add that this was very uncomfortable for me. Sure enough she paid me back. The next day she picked me up in the morning at my bungalow and told me that she had wanted to take me fishing for a day. We went to her bar/cafe, locked up, and informed her employees they had the day off to come fishing with us. We caught some fish and went back to the bar to cook them up. During dinner she asked me what I thought about having a girl work for her. I told her I had never been to a girly bar before so I didn't really know what to tell her. She asked me if I would go to the main bar (having 10+ girls) and try to find a hard working girl that wasn't too pushy. I agreed. She showed up later and joined our pool game. She basically interviewed her and then we left. She couldn't do it anyway. She was so frustrated with her financial/moral dilemma. It was then I realized just how these bar girls must be feeling themselves.I sat in many bars after this throughout the country and tried my hardest to see this side of Thai culture. I didn't just bar hop asking questions. I went to the same place for a few days and made friends. After talking to many I concluded that most of these girls were happy with what they were doing. They seemed to like going with Farang. I couldn't understand it. I now know that bar girls will never tell you about their true feelings with a few simple questions. That I can almost guarantee. They have to maintain an image of respect for themselves even though they feel horrible inside. Much different from western prostitution. (I think?)On my journey into a new bar I met "the girl". She brought me into her life. We talked for a few days. Eventually she asked me to go out with her. Then asked me if I wanted to stay with her instead of paying for a guesthouse. I was thinking, uh oh, now she is going to try and rob me or ask me for rent money. Not the case at all. She gave me the key to her room, would not let me clean anything (including my laundry), and often declined my efforts to pay for food. This was too good to be true. She told me she wanted time to learn me.... and if I was interested in her then that would give me the time too. She said "you can not learn me in the bar too easy". We went out with her friends to party and went camping. Just spent time together. I then got to see how dramatically her behaviour changed when she was not working. It was like 2 completely different people. On one occasion at a "disco" she left. Just left, not saying anything to anyone. I noticed she was a bit off that day, but didn't think anything of it. Her friend tracked her down. She was walking home crying. Her friend came back to tell me she was ok. Apparently she was starting to have "too much feeling" for me.... as I was for her. At that moment I realized how broken this fragile heart must be from what she has done to survive. Over the past 6 months I have watched these concrete walls around her heart start to crumble. I have never witnessed such a struggle in my life. She told me everything. Married at 18 to a Farang from the bar. She had barely worked at all and took the first chance she could get. She ran a bar for him very successfully for 5 years and had a child. He was cheating on her since he met her, and she knew this. After the child was born and he still didn't change she had enough. The fighting got worse and he cared less, eventually bringing girls into their home. She "killed him in the street", gave him his business back, and left with her son back home. She then went back to work and spent the most miserable 3 years of her life "doing anything" for money. Then she started lending money and slowing down for working. She could not handle it any more. Since that breaking point she has been looking for a good man. I showed up about a week after she left her previous bi-polar boyfriend (I met him a few times). She still has to work and will never ask me for money. She would rather I save my money and if I feel like it, plan for a future there. She wants to be self sufficient. She still does not fully trust me and does anything for me to trust her. She knows the day is coming when she will have to go with a customer and has prepared me for that. I fully understand her life and barely comprehensible respect for her family. She has changed so much since I first met her. I have fell in love with a bar girl. Now I sit here at my laptop far far away wondering how to make this all work. I honestly feel that I met this woman when she had only 1 more heart string left for someone to hang onto.It makes me sick to see some of the men who go to Thailand and exploit these human beings as if they are creatures without a soul. This does not go for just bargirls, but also the ladyboys and gay men in the bar scene.I would encourage everyone who travels to Thailand to go with an open heart and an open mind. Be happy, smile, be respectful, and most importantly be eager to learn! It will take you on an unforgettable journey. I am a 21 year old Canadian who had no previous travel experience and did just fine.
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  45. I wonder if Fiona can believe that some western women choose to work as porn stars, etc? I bet she can't and it wouldn't be my choice for my daughter but, nonetheless, it happens.Fiona can't speak for all women. People are different. Some women murder and cheat, some work selflessly for charity, etc. Some don't necessarily always invest emotion in sex and some have the attitude that sex for money isn't so bad. After all, you have to do something for money to buy those designer handbags or pay back your gambling parents' loan shark.Fiona should be connected to the Facebook accounts that I am. She'd see a world of the madly superficial where girls sell sex just for a silly handbag or Ipad, parade the photos and then keep on doing it until they get old. There's no big plan to get out of it, no saving of money for a business, no investments, no thought. Just the infuriatingly mindless and superficial. That's part of the reasons Thais do it more than other poorer countries.
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  47. TheThailandLife...they want better for their kids and to meet the expectations of their parents, which as has been pointed out already are usually unreasonably and demanding.
    You're still focusing a little too much on your hatred of end-users, though at least you acknowledge more than Fiona. If she ever bothers to think past the standard middle-class view, she might wonder why other poorer countries don't have the same problem. It doesn't matter about her cliche about supply and demand. No one would supply if it weren't for:1. Greedy parents who care more about money than their children. 2. A society that tolerates the above and reinforces the view that daughters should sacrifice themselves and that surface appearance is everything. 3. Irresponsible (usually Thai) men who father children and then flee, leaving the mothers to take care of them.All these things come together and make prostitution the size it is in Thailand. Think why supply doesn't rise so easily to meet demand in so many other countries...
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  48. I haven't read all the comments but am amazed that other human beings believe that any woman would make a "choice" to do this type of work as if there were 3/4 other jobs with the same pay, hours and job satisfaction......talk about choice here, or money grabbing parents or whatever is all about making the service user feel better. Excuses and justifications......and absolutely patronizing!!! Supply and demand.....whilst there is a demand.....someone will supply. And it's the suppliers really making money of this. In an egalitarian world....would any of us sleep with someone we didn't want to? Share our bodies with someone we don't know, are definitely not attracted to and have to shut down our emotions in order to fulfil the 'transaction'. Women do get emotionally involved when they have sex. The cost to them to pursue this work is massive, make no mistake. Intellectual middle class discussion and dialogue does not change the fact that this is slavery.
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    • My sentiments exactly Fiona. Most guys adopt their stance on this subject from other guys to justify what they're doing. I hear and read the same comments all the time: "They love it". "Why don't they work a normal job like millions of other women then?" "They're money grabbing, scheming bitches".Try getting a job in Thailand as a woman from a poor, rice farming family, with no education, 2 kids to support and zero work skills.The opportunities are very few for jobs over 8,000 Baht. Cleaner? Motorbike taxi driver? Choice? Would we accept such choices as reasonable for our daughters. Sure they could survive, but like we all do, they want better for their kids and to meet the expectations of their parents, which as has been pointed out already are usually unreasonably and demanding. Moreover, finding a decent Thai guy when all you have to offer is the burden of two kids from a previous relationship and no money is not going to be an easy task. The bar is a gamble. Some get lucky, if you can call it that - land a man twice their age with a good pension Others never make much money because their families squander it all and they end up back in the village when their too old to attract customers, old, lonely and used. But none of this matters to the guy that just wants to get his end away with a pretty young brown thing that he sees as no more important than a dog. Fact.
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  50. Howdy! I google ''ladyboy'' and that's how I found your blog. I enjoy reading your article as I found it very intriguing and interesting. I will be coming to BKK soon and I am so looking forward to enrich my experience!Wendy from HKG :)
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  51. Thaank You very much for your hearthwarming article, full of humanity, dignity and sense of respect. I have met (but rarely befriended) many expats in my life and it seems westerners tends to truly loose any sensibility once they arrive in foreign countries, everyone is really happy to play the role of the Don Juan while the truth behind this ridiculous play is quite obvious, yet everyone pretend it isn't there
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  52. ... The cold fact is that you never see a girl from a well-off family working in a go-go bar; you rarely see a girl who has attended university working in a go-go bar – though there are those that support their education doing such a job – and you rarely see a white-skinned Thai bar girl….why is this?
    I've known quite a few bargirls who have attended university.White skinned girls inclined to get their money on their backs would do so further up the scale - in massage parlours, high-end places, coyote, rich men's clubs, would become mia nois with all the trappings, etc.
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  53. TheThailandLife: I have no doubt there are Albert, yet relying on the leadership of academics rather than the wise and experienced is what got the world into this mess in the first place. Do you have any examples of such studies based in Thailand?
    Dangerous rubbish, all knowledge and understanding comes impartially from academic research but the wise? and experienced? implement that pure knowledge in their own way to meet their own ends!
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  54. Great article.But i do have one question if you don't mind. For many people who experience first trip to red light district what they basically see is how bar girls smile,joke,in general act/look happy,even in front of camera.At first it looks like they really enjoy their "work".You're speaking about "choices" that they don't have. But i do believe they have choices.If they really don't want to work like that they could just choose " I WON'T DO IT". For a single women with child/s to support alone,family to support is it possible that they could just work more or even 2 jobs so that they don't have to choose a life of prostitute?People all over the world can work 2 jobs just to provide money,why they can't?Is it being a prostitute just an"east way" to earn money?Or am i wrong and it's just impossible because even in one job one would practically work all day.Do they have a choice -work more or just going with other "bad" choice? Really want to know your opinion on that,thx(sry for my english)
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    • Hi Mamo, you make a good point. remember that 99% of these girls left school before 16, some 13, 14 and 15 years old when they left to work and support their family, only to be married at 16/17 and then left with kids and no welfare support by the age of 18-20. That sort of education commands a salary of perhaps 8,000 Baht per month, maybe 10 in Bangkok, full time. If job progression was fair, i.e decent salary raises and promotion opportunities , then it would be fair to say that if a girl puts in the hard work she could make a living good enough (eventually) to give her kids better opportunity than she had. But working a month for $250 won't go far here, especially considering the rising cost of living.You might argue; well some do it, so why can't they? And you're right, some manage. But as I have said before, it takes a strong (or young, naive and stupid) person to sacrifice their should by selling their flesh, particularly a young woman from a culture that heavily promotes sexual modesty among its women. Some just can't bring themselves to do it, others are coaxed or gently submerged and others committed through peer pressure. Whatever the pathway, it seldom is a positive one.The fact is that no girl goes into the industry a hardened hooker looking to take as much money as she can from foreigners for sex. The large majority believe that they too (like the girl in their moo ban who lives in the big house with a foreigner and "seems to have it all) will meet a man who will provide for their kids and family.Most quickly become disillusioned with finding this dream, encountering only men equally as lost as they are themselves; those who treat them like pieces of meat and have zero respect for themselves or the women they pay for sex. From this underbelly emerges stories of Thai hookers playing foreigners off against each other to get as much as they can get.A few do find a guy, usually twice their age - looking for a carer-cum-sexual toy - to settle with. These women sacrifice love and romance with a guy their own age with whom they have things in common for a father-daughter type relationship with a guy who pays for her kids, parents and by Thailand's standards, a middle-class lifestyle. This, however, is usually a much better setup than they could expect from the choice of men their social standing could afford.The sad thing is that so many young girls from poor rural backgrounds believe this is their path, that this is the only way, or the most lucrative way to get ahead in life. There are very few people working to stop young women taking this path, very few initiatives offering the necessary free education required to access better-paid jobs, or study-support initiates to young, single mothers so that they might develop a respectable career. And even if there was, they would need to overcome regional and social-class discrimination when applying for jobs. Moreover, there is no social welfare system to financially protect young women. And then there is the whole "face" culture, providing for ones parents etc.The cold reality is that only a handful ever find happiness or wealth on this path. The cold fact is that you never see a girl from a well-off family working in a go-go bar; you rarely see a girl who has attended university working in a go-go bar - though there are those that support their education doing such a job - and you rarely see a white-skinned Thai bar girl….why is this?When you look beyond the mini-skirts and heels and deeper into society, politics, classism, eduction, attitudes etc…you see a whole new reality.
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      • The sad thing is that so many young girls from poor rural backgrounds believe this is their path, that this is the only way, or the most lucrative way to get ahead in life.
        The sad thing is that the people around them encourage this, that they waste time and chances to go off this path and that they end up making the future of their own children no better.Look at the Facebook account of bargirls (or a quasi-bargirls) . It's depressing facile. All they all seem to care about are silly consumer goods, looking good, face, parties, what their silly peers think of them. It's not like they're putting the money into education for themselves or their children that could get them out. Even if they have an idea to do something like this and persistence, their native fellows will drag them down.Just about the only way this cycle stops is if a farang intercepts it, with patience, gets the girl out of it and away from the bad influences. Ironically, you seem to be more down on the farangs when the problem plainly stems from the native society.
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  59. I have been with a couple of bar girls, & treated them as I would a regular girlfriend- with respect & consideration for their feelings.I did meet one girl & although I can't speak Thai I could see from her expressions that she was very unhappy inside. I formed this opinion after having been with her for several days; not from being in bed with her. She told me that truly she doesn't have a real choice, if she wants to have a half decent life & provide for her daughter & parents. She didn't attempt to ask for money or decieve me at all, so I really don't think she was spinning me a sympathy line, to get stuff from me.But as you rightly say, they are human beings who live, laugh & cry.
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  60. Damn that was a good article. I first looked at the subject and the length and thought I'd need a few more Singhas ;)Anyway, I agree with most of it. Bar girls are born into bad situation, and they don't have the resources to readily dig themselves out of that hole. Many of them are great, though some of them are pretty bad. I can say the same about most groups of people!
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  62. Thank you for responding I am going to be majoring in Anthropology but I am not sure if that is the right major to have an occupation to get involved in something like this. I want to help people in these situations and to help those avoid having to go into a career like this. I know you are not an adviser but would you think that this would be a good start?
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  63. Hello I am thinking about getting involved with an organization that helps these girls find a better lifesstyle. I am interested about what you did at the refuge and I was wondering what were the first steps that you took to help these women. I am only a college student but I am very interested about this issue because something must be done about the lack of opportunities in Thailand for women who are in poverty and in low class systems and I would like your advice on what to do.
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    • Hi James. I did the refuge work as part of my Martial Arts school. I went along with my teacher and one other student to teach days of self defence/empowerment for women. I am looking at doing something with this organisation this year: http://pratthanadee.org/ There are loads of wonderful organisations helping marginalised, poor women and men in Thailand, and refugees from the likes of Burma, such as Thai Freedom house, which I've been to a few times: https://www.facebook.com/ThaiFreedomHouseCM. Have a Google around and I am sure you'll find something to positively contribute to.
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  64. wow, i read almost all the comments and the article, very good arguments everyone. i was thinking of going to thailand, but besides the bar girls being a question, im more concerned with the government and tough laws, and also the potential from crime against me. I would feel good about helping a bar girl out, and getting to know them, i think, i might be deluding myself though, because as interesting as that sounds, i think i still might be thinking selfishly, why not help out a poor thai guy. because i cant get anything back from him but a thank you, I dont know. im not that old 36, and have married a hmong girl a while back that didnt work out. i guess im just confused and should not make rash decisions.
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  65. Pretty sweeping judgemental subjective opinions portrayed as fact from TL . Also why refer to western men as 'strange looking' and 'sociopaths'? One common argument is that it 'looks odd' that old, bald, white, western men are seen with younger women. Odd to whom? Asian men marry younger Asian women too, nothing said as it's 'cultural'. Stop apologising for what YOU think are crimes on behalf of the western world.
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  67. pattayacondo: ....Ive seen many times newcomers crying in room after “customers...
    Have you also seen them crying after 'family' and other Thai 'friends' have done something to them? I don't think the customers are the main cause of their problems.
    pattayacondo: Did anybody see thai people talk bad about thai bar girl or something similiar to this? NEVER. ... Thais will NEVER talk bad about bar girl because everybody UNDERSTAND why she have to work like this and have bad life like this.
    This is wrong. I've heard plenty of Thais talk bad about bar girls. Thai bar girls (or ex-bar girls) also tell me that this happens to them. Being an employer of bar-girls doesn't give you much more insight. Think what you'd tell an employer and then half it and half again for their level of trust.
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  68. TheThailandLife: @Bibbles: I have answered it numerous times. Have you ever met bargirl that was born into a rich family? Have you ever met a bargirl that didn’t leave school before 14/15 years old – perhaps but it’s very rare. I don’t know why foreigners are in denial about this. Ask any Thai, they’ll tell you.
    You still haven't answered it at all. Saying prostitutes tend to come from poor and troubled backgrounds does not answer the question:Why do other countries, with more poverty and social problems, NOT have as much prostitution?And, by the way, I have met prostitutes born into relatively rich families.
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    • Seriously awesome article! I just find it heartless that this Bibblies guy cannot see the basic, compassionate message of it: A Thai bar girl is a woman, just like your mother, daughter, sister. And most girls would definitely never choose to earn their living having emotionless sex with men twice their age. Some of these poor girls have simply had rotten luck.This article refreshingly focuses on heart breaking reality as opposed to the crude exploitation of prostitution. It's a very welcome change. He is not saying that this applies to ALL gogo girls. So you've had a few bargirl girlfriends - that does not make you the all-knowing professor of bargirl psychology. Believe it or not Bibblies, all girls are individuals, they are all different. And your ranking system is fked up btw.
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      • Ever lived with any bargirls, Bron? Know any of their families? How many do you know, have you known for how long? Seen their choices in life? Ever really tried to help any away from the scene and seen them muck it up? And how dare you call me 'heartless' when I have and you just watch, cluessless, from afar?The answers to these questions will obviously be 'no, not really', 'not really', 'not many' and 'not long'. On any subject, if I wanted an opinion on something, I'd talk to someone who actually knew something about it, not someone who didn't have experience. Try thailandguru for some more writing about bargirls and the attitude difference between them and girls (often just as poor) who don't work in bars. He's closer to the mark. Look at his stories of trying to help bargirls. There's a different attitude. He's actually done it (unlike, I'd guess, you).Of course, there are normal girls there who've had bad luck and made bad choices. And there are some whose lives, with patience and hard work, you can help turn around. But there are undeniably also some, incredible as it may be to you and me, who just seem to prefer to make a living this way to getting a lower, if still reasonable livable wage elsewhere. I don't understand it coming from the culture that I do. And I don't like it. But they are there, undeniably.
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      • Bron, I agree with Bibblies. The article presents Thai prostitutes as victims of mainly poverty, like they have no choice, no options to live a more decent life. But there is really no reason to victimize these girls. The absolute main reason for entering this dubious business, is their own, merely inborn, bad character. Sorry, but this is the truth. Add to this some unhealthy habits of the Thai culture (mentality), and off these girls go to Pattaya. But the main source is their own character. The vast majority of Thai prostitutes I have met, have just not been born with the best nature. They are greedy and totally lazy. Most of these girls really prefer to have sex with some old, rich Chinese man 4-5-8 times a month for big money rather than going to work every day. The sex it easier. That's it! And they really don't care. Girls who are born with good hearts, unselfish, compassionate natures, will be very disinclined to enter this bad business. And make no mistake: the girls that choose to sell their abdomens for money, usually are very abusive, total gamers, can't feel remorse for anything they do, and are usually very selfish too.For years I was in doubt whether these girls' bad characters are created by the poverty (which makes them feel inferior; inferiority might generate all sorts of callousness) or other outer circumstances. My conclusion, today, is that 80-90% of the reason they end up as bad girls is to find in the character they were born with. The acceptance and encouragement of the Thai society adds a bit to it. So does the mother.So, in short: mainly greed and laziness - that's it! If she has a good character, she is very unlikely to enter this business.
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        • I don't believe they were born like this!It's the family and the culture that makes them (that makes anyone, pretty much, I think). If the culture condones it, if any of her family or peers are doing or have done the same, that makes it much more likely that she'll enter the business.If a girl from a family of poor prostitutes were to be taken from her parents and brought up by a foster family in another country, steeped in a different culture and values, I can't see her being anywhere as likely to become a bar-girl. She could even brought up in an equivalently poor family and, steeped in a different culture and values, be less likely to be a prostitute.
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  69. Hello, how are you? I don't even know how the hell i google here to "Why I Don’t Blog About Thai Bar Girls" because i didn't look anything related to your blog but it was best thing i did in last 2 weeks. And after reading it i just fell obligated to write a couple a words. Im 27 year old,I live in Thailand for a 4 years now.I had owned a big bar buisness in Pattaya along with 2 friends.After 10months i sold my percent of bar to my friends and i went to condominium buisness. The profit from bar buisness was good,but for people like me(people with good heart) it was too much.The things i saw in that 10months i must admit and im not shy to tell that cuople of times i even cried.People dont understand why they have to work like that.Most foreigners that i talk with think they like sex more then everything,believe me ITS FAR FROM TRUTH. I dont know about 100% of bar girls but im sure for 99% of them.Like you said and i seen too much times,when you compare lady that comes to work in bar for a first time-first day-first week and compare same lady 1-2months later difference is like comparing black and white.Believe me NOBODY wants to work like this.Of course after a time she get used to it. Unfortunately she DOESN'T have any CHOICE in life.Ive seen many times newcomers crying in room after "customers",i've seen atempted suicides,much percent of them after some time start using drugs,not a day pass without alcohol.Ive talk to MANY of them as i can talk moderate thai and i know what is behind those eyes and smiles when you look passing by on street and nobody can tell me different. Behind those smiles is a totally different story.Like i said im not cold heart person and it was to much for me almost every day.I dont even know how much times i saw bar girl talk with foreigner and 5 minutes later saw her crying in bathroom. I dont want to be harsh and say stupid farangs never understand why she have to work like this but its true. Did anybody see thai people talk bad about thai bar girl or something similiar to this? NEVER. I never forget when i was in hotel,and in hallway near me was 3 cleaning ladies that i talk to them on thai and couple of foreigners talking together.Other hotel room door opened and 3 fat arab people and 1 young thai lady were on the way out.Foreigners said:"Uhuhu look look she get 3 dicks today i bet she feel great haha", and 3 young cleaning ladies told me on thai:"songsan na,mai mi krai jaak tamgan jang ni.Which mean- Its sad right? Nobody wants to work like this. By listening that you can just think how thai people understand why she have to work like this compared to foreigners.Thais will NEVER talk bad about bar girl because everybody UNDERSTAND why she have to work like this and have bad life like this. I dont want to offend nobody but i think some farangs are really stupid in brain.Most of the Thai will never consider having a thai prostitute as girlfriend,wife because everybody understand why she works like this and what problems in life she has,from non euducation,babies to poor familiy.And thai will be ashamed even to walk outside along with bar girl. I dont feel sorry for foreigners who lose a house,everything becouse of bar girls.Foreigners that dont understand that she's working for money,money much needed that is more important that same foreigner even when they walk together holding hands in moonlight. When i talk to one thai man taxi motorcycle near my condo,he asked me How can farang much education,money even consider dating a prostitiute,he asked me in western countries do farangs date with prostitutes?? I didnt know what to answer. Some website,like stickman's website mentioned before and MANY OF THEM are stupid,somebody who dont know nothing can believe it but I sure wont.Ive seen too much time bar girls behind smiles and i know what kind of life they have.Life that is not considered to far from raping every day.Life that has to do not for herself but for family and baby(ies).But like i said,in time she get used to it,and from then on its only about money because her soul has dissapear already. Im really glad to come to your blog i hope much people will read it before talking things about bar girls.But i really hope one day people will talk something different about thailand as there are millions of great things in thailand unfortunately people always stick to talk about bad things. I like the way you talk you seem like a person who have brain to think, not like half of foreigners on different websites who live in red light district and consider everybody in thailand bar girl if she wear short skirt and have piercing in ears. I would like to have "farang" friend like you in Thailand im so boring with my "friends" who only know bad things about about Thailand and stories with bar girls,other than million of good things which make this country.I more enjoy play xbox 360 online then going out with them lol.This is why i started to have only thai friends,it seem like they have more brain in their head,but people like you still give me a hope that there is a decent western with brain still living in Thailand.
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  70. Sorry mate but this is simply to naive, bleeding heart a post to be REALLY relevant. I do agree with a lot of what you wrote. I also can't walk down Soi Cowboy, much less Nana, anymore and see anything other than despair and filth. I also know the 'hooker look' in the eyes of a woman, dead inside, it's not that dissimilar from girls in the west who sleep with a lot of guys.However, the basic premise of your post could be written about prostitution almost anywhere. There ARE prostitutes in rich countries too you know, remember the famous New York escort girl who brought down that politician. She was very well off and still hooked. A lot more women than you think have taken money or things for sex at some point in their life. Naturally there's a major difference from being a bar girl or a high end escort girl but selling your body is selling your body.But you're simply being way, way to naive and whiteknight about the whole thing. Prostitution and promiscuity is simply a Thai cultural phenomonen and favorite past time. Prostitution is rampant in Thailand at all levels of society. The expensive Thai only memberclubs don't have poor Isaan girls in them, but middle class educated pale Thai girls who can hold a conversation about wine just as easily as flirt with you.I have to say, this is another account of falling sway to the myth of the 'beautiful savage' and whiteknighting.Why do you even waste your time with these girls? There are millions of normal Thai women to spend your time with.
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    • Hi Erik, I'm not sure you fully understood my points in this post. In terms of wasting my time with the girls, I don't in that respect, although I have all the time in the world to verbally protect any woman who becomes a victim of a vicious class divisive society that consciously engineers social oppression among the lower classes for its own gain. I do have what I guess you are referring to as a "normal" long-term girlfriend, even though I am hesitant to suggest the girls working in bars are in some way abnormal. My interaction with the girls/women in the refuge showed me that they're 100% human, just dehumanised like dogs by abusers.I don't disagree that there are higher class escorts,and of course prostitution exists in all countries, and there will always be the odd woman, even in a society where it isn't necessary to sell one's body on any level, that will. Fact is, people use the resources they have at hand to make a living. And so it's no surprise that prostitution grows in activity in poor areas, as does theft. However, the face of prostitution in the bar and club-freelancer scenes here is very different to a high-class hooker who picks and chooses select clients in hi-so circles of London or New York. Remember, there isn't even a social welfare system in place here.Fact is, there are far too many young, naive women losing their lives to this industry: becoming drug addicts, drunks, HIV victims, mentally ill, unable to enter "normal" sexual/intimate relationships, victims of attacks & rape by pimps and those they owe money to, becoming outcasts in their local communities and from family units; and what of the ramifications for their children?So please do elaborate on what you mean by whiteknight? This is just a convenient phrase I hear white men use who want to justify their actions or avoid the real truth; or at least bothering to research the truth. With all due respect, I'd say you imperial suggestion that "Prostitution and promiscuity is simply a Thai cultural phenomonen and favorite past time" makes you the whiteknight, on a par with those who holiday for sex and return to Europe telling the world that all Thai women are sex-hungry whores. The truth is the large majority of these women are uneducated, poor women who've been discriminated against since birth, denied a real education, and left with children to support and no accountability forced upon the father(s) of their children. Many encounter serious financial difficulty, due to lack of work, funds to start a business, or the prospect of a job that will struggle to support one person let alone an extended family. Often families are being harassed by loan sharks, and culturally the onus and pressure falls upon single daughters to help out and save family face. So, those able to go through the mental barrier, to break all the cultural and religious morality they've been brought up with, sacrifice their souls by turning to prostitution in the hope that the financial return will take their family out of the perpetual poverty cycle.The money and resources are in abundance to protect women through the provision of further education, child support, and more - a different path can be provided. But no one wants to share; there's too much money to be made off the back of it, too. And the white tourist isn't likely to show any compassion and speak out against it, why would we? We enjoy dominating and degrading brown people; we've been doing it for the last 200 years.To suggest the girls working in the backstreets of Thailand's tourist spots is in some way cultural is simply absurd, and I really suggest you do some research on Thai history; where Thai people come from, where regional cultural influence comes from and more. I ask you not to close your mind and see things so black and white; they aren't.
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      • Thanks for your reply.I don't frequent prostitutes anymore, but I am not ashamed that I did have a few experiences with bargirls as a newb in Thailand. Paying for sex is unsatisfying and degrading for both parties and indeed is a soul destroying venture for both the customer and the girl, unless of course you're a sociopath, whom are found on both sides. Otherwise how can you justify stealing a mans entire life savings like all the sob stories so rampant on Thaivisa? Don't tell me that it's ok to scam and rob someone of all their savings just because someone is old, stupid and delusional?Thai promiscuity?A study done by Durex which you may have heard about (http://www.coconutsbangkok.com/news/durex-condoms-thai-men-most-unfaithful-in-the-world/) found that Thai men were the most likely to cheat on their spouse in the world and that Thai women were the second most likely in the world. Accoding to the study a whopping 59% of Thai women admit to having cheated on their husband/boyfriend and 54% of Thai men admit the same.As you probably know, the vast majority of prostituion in Thailand is Thai to Thai in many different forms say the oppulent 'massage' palaces on Ratchada the size of hotels. Or the many, many membership clubs used to entertain business prospects or the karaoke places found in EVERY hole in the wall town in the countryside. Don't tell me that this isn't a Thai cultural phenomonen. In which other poor countries is prostitution so rampant and obvious?There actually have been written books about this subject such as 'Prostitution in Thailand: Myth and Reality' written by a female Indian PHD. Here is an excerpt from a review:"The chapter 2 of the work begins with the specific question of prostitution in Thailand. This chapter entitled "Prostitution in Thailand: its Historical Evolution" discusses the social and cultural ambience in Thailand answerable for the growth of prostitution. The influence of Brahmanical philosophy and the role of Buddhism behind are narrated in this part. It discusses the historical evolution of prostitution from the ayuthia period (i.e., fourteenth century itself) and refers to the social position of women in Thai society. In this context it refers to women in traditional society and the system of polygamy. Analysis of customary Thai laws and social-legal environment as a factor behind growth of prostitution are also discussed. The factor of colonical infiltration by the middle of nineteenth century and its role behind growth of commercial economy and bureaucratic class and related changes in social order also helped to change the social position of women and in the growth of the practice and trade of harlotry. In large commercial houses of Bangkok, for male folk it was not deemed unusual to have concubines, and once men with numerical superiority of concubines began to acquire some kind of status symbol."And:"This part of the study seeks to analyse if prostitution has been culturally and socially defended in Thai society. The question of general socialization of Thai girls, the family expectation and role of girls are points of study and analysis. It is concluded that social and cultural environment of Thailand, at least in some parts of the country contributes to the easy growth of the occupation."So as you see, there ARE cultural factors at play in why Thailand and not say Bangladesh has become infamous for prostitution.Let me be clear that I don't condone prostitution, I think it's very harmful in the long run, but not the act itself, but the dehumanizing aspect of doing it over and over.The whiteknight comment was out of place personal attack so I'd like to retract it.But it does seem like you carry some 'white guilt'. I certainly didn't dominate any brown people or any other people for that matter for 200 years. The Japanese however were absolutely brutal in Asia during WW2.I don't claim to know the motivation and background of bargirls. From my limited experience, it seems like some/many seem to quite enjoy being young, partying every night and having more money than a managing director. It's rare to see a bargirl without an expensive smartphone for example. For many others being a wife-for-rent is a smart retirement plan. Of course, all this comes at a big price and I am not saying it's ok or condonable, but trying to argue, that it's not always clear who is exploiting who. Marrigage for money is not exactly a new thing.I think that the worst exploitation is done by Thais to Thais and that many sextourists are not really the monsters they're made out to be (except for the sociopaths you describe). Many are just lonely, older men who are looking for love in all the wrong places.Really, having this kind of discussion makes me feel kind of dirty because this part of Thailand isn't the Thailand that I'd like to live in. I honestly can't understand how anyone can live the bar lifestyle for any amount of time whether as a customer or bar girl. I look forward to Thailand becoming truly prosperous.Anyway, your post is written with good intentions and I think it's good to get some opposition to the sexpat drivel that is all over the internet.
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        • Hi Erik,1. 'I think that the worst exploitation is done by Thais to Thais and that many sextourists are not really the monsters they’re made out to be'.Yes, exactly.2. In which other poor countries is prostitution so rampant and obvious?'The Thailand Life' conspicuously hasn't answered this. It's his main point, poverty, and yet he never addresses the glaring hole in it.3. 'But it does seem like you carry some ‘white guilt’Three strikes, three goals! Yes, this is probably why he doesn't answer. He just seems to be interested in going on about white men taking advantage of these girls whereas, as you point out, other Thais are more guilty and often some of these men will try to help these girls far more than their fellow Thais...
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          • <a onclick="javascript:pageTracker._trackPageview('/mailto/bibblies@hotmail.com');" href="mailto:bibblies@hotmail.com">bibblies@hotmail.com</a>: Hi Erik,1. ‘I think that the worst exploitation is done by Thais to Thais and that many sextourists are not really the monsters they’re made out to be’.Yes, exactly.2. In which other poor countries is prostitution so rampant and obvious?‘The Thailand Life’ conspicuously hasn’t answered this. It’s his main point, poverty, and yet he never addresses the glaring hole in it.3. ‘But it does seem like you carry some ‘white guilt’Three strikes, three goals! Yes, this is probably why he doesn’t answer. He just seems to be interested in going on about white men taking advantage of these girls whereas, as you point out, other Thais are more guilty and often some of these men will try to help these girls far more than their fellow Thais…
            To answers Erik- yes its wrong to steal entire mens life saving,house etc.Can you blame them,No! Why?Because they work for money.Maybe some foreigner should start date prostitutes in their home countries so can have experience when come here with same kind of girls.It is same,just different country.Like i sad,why Thai would never consider having a prostitute as girlfriend,wife.Becouse every one of them understand why she works like this,only foreigners dont. Most of ladies that works in bar are married and have babies from the relatevely young age,it was responsabilty of parents to teach their kinds.Did you ever see bar girl with good parents..i had never.In my moo-baan ,village, of my girlfriend everybody are married,happily,why? because they didnt start having men and screwing and marring at the age of 15.Everybody who is married had married after 20year.People dont have brain until that age,especially for happy marriage and think something more about men.So men cant be blamed for being men.Pussy dont stay on ladies head so everybody can fuck.Its her choice,and later probably have consequnces and have a baby and take care alone.And its very big reason why they have to work in bar.Eduction isnt a problem if they dont have to take care baby or family.They can find work everywhere at 7000,8000baht and maybe even a find a foreigner.But find a foreigner with good intensions and heart as a normal girl isnt same working as a bar girl and finding a foreigner.I know many good ladies that work for minimal wage and look for foreigner.Not old,not for money,for love.Because they have choice.They not have baby,bad family.its easy when you have own life and dont think about take care nobody except yourself. 1.You said:"As you probably know, the vast majority of prostituion in Thailand is Thai to Thai"- How many bars are there that service for farang in pattaya for example and how much are there for thai only? 300 to 1?Tell me 1 soi in thailand that is only for thai? Nana,soi cowboy,patpong,soi 6,7 etc.,walking street,soi bukhao,bangla road only for farangs.If there aint those areas nobody would even know about prostitution here. 2.bibbles I dont know about other poor countries(btw Thailand isnt considered really poor),but let me tell you in richer Korea and many others there is also much prostitution..just behind closed doors. It isnt only about removing a bar scene,you have to look what is behind this.If average bar girl have decent education(high school),no babies at young age(or if have at least she will get child support),normal family there wouldnt be any bar scene. When i read Stickman blog before i want to go to toilet and puke!Every blog entry starts with a bar girl,and then complaining why she do like this.Well,hey just a thought! Maybe you should step outside red light district and step into a real world with normal girls which have some choices in life and which you dont have to spend thai baht to talk to you. Only becouse of "people" who spend life in red light districts and see only THAT KIND OF GIRLS is reason why Thailand has a bad image like this.
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          • @Bibbles: I have answered it numerous times. Have you ever met bargirl that was born into a rich family? Have you ever met a bargirl that didn't leave school before 14/15 years old - perhaps but it's very rare. I don't know why foreigners are in denial about this. Ask any Thai, they'll tell you.1. Poor family, of low class/name etc. 2. Left school with no university education 3. Has kids and/or family problems like gambling/alcoholismPeriod.
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  71. You only need to read a few reader submissions from stickmans site to realize that not every westerner is some evil colonialist, and that this is a rather simplistic viewpoint. Many have good intentions, but are taken advantage of by conniving scanners. Some bargirls and freelancers even pose as non bargirls on buses and train stations to fool western men that they are normal girls looking for a relationship. Read this submission for just one sad example:http://www.stickmanbangkok.com/reader/reader263.html
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    • So what are you saying Gerdy, "Some bargirls and freelancers even pose as non bargirls on buses and train stations to fool western men that they are normal girls looking for a relationship". Come on. How is this even possible? At some point she will ask for money in return for sex; this is her job. Anyone with half a brain cell who has been here in central Bangkok or one of the other tourist spots around the country knows that if a girl is giving you the come on (excessively) in public then something isn't right; Because this just isn't the way of the average Thai woman. Moreover, you'd need only ask a few questions to rumble her "disguise". Like what do you do for work, what university did you go to? Then you can dig deeper; if she isn't educated why is her English so good, etc, etc. Furthermore, if her plan is to sleep with you a few times then fleece you for cash you'll know she is a freelancer when she doesn't go to work for so many days in a row.If she never asks for money and genuinely does want a "normal" relationship, but used to be a freelancer, it won't be long before you realise this simply through pieces of the puzzle that don't make sense. But then if she's a genuine girl with a heart of gold and good intentions toward you, and you love her, would you care. Up to you.Regardless of what people like Stickman might purport, this notion that women who work at night spend their lives concealing what they do is complete rubbish. Thai people know, their home town knows, everyone knows. It is only the "stupid farang" who never bothers to learn a snippit of the language who doesn't. However, most Thais don't refer to the girls as "prostitutes" because this word is like using the 'c" word in English. And so they use phrasing. For example, when I speak with the owner of the cafe in my local area, she'll tell me stories about the girls working "night", referring to them as "poo ying glang koon" (ladies working at night). Thais know prostitutes a mile off from how they speak, act and from their daily movements. They pity them, and the girls don't deny what they do, yet don't talk about it openly. The Thai men drinking in the soi, on the other hand, refer to the women as "poo ying haa gin" when they strut past in heels and minis off to work, which means a woman looking for something to eat (men).I don't want to be ageist or offensive here, but come on. If a hot, young girl is coming onto you, showing overt interest in public and going to extensive lengths to establish a connection with you, and you're almost twice her age, or looks-wise she is generally way out of your league, then have a bit of common sense. Perhaps, just maybe, she's seeing you as a target more than the potential love of her life.As for Stickman's blog; well, most of us who've been here a fair few years know that it's sensationalist, fabricated bull**** that all reads with one agenda, and that is to make out that every Thai woman is a secret whore with a monetary agenda. Anyone who writes and reads a lot can tell a large majority of those stories are written by the same person; it's very transparent. Behind that screen is a bitter man with a hateful agenda.
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    • Have you actually read this story? The girl wasn't trapping him at all, he set the trap all for himself. He was chasing that girl, he was giving her money that she never asked for! My guess is that for the first time they stayed together, she actually liked him and wasn't trying to scam him or anything.And the other girl who wanted to sleep with him - if he was young and good looking and she was "half old, half ugly" as he described, perhaps she was just happy to get an opportunity to stay with a guy like that. Perhaps she was lonely and saw that he was lonely too. Many girls actually do enjoy having sex with young good looking guys. Or maybe she was really just a prostitute trying to make a buck, so what's wrong with that? He didn't have to take her to his room if he didn't want to.If anything, this story goes to demonstrate how a guy can be stupid enough to set himself up, get brokenhearted and become totally nuts (barfighting, flushing money in the toilet to take revenge on a completely unrelated person!). Come on, he would blame the "money grabbing Thai girls" just to have anyone to blame but himself.
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      • Hi, yes I read it, wires crossed a bit, sorry - my reply was in response to your comment about men being taken advantage of; and yes I agree, reading the story he set himself up. Thing is, I do think that the time he spent with her had some "realness" to it; she just couldn't take the risk of putting all her eggs in one basket, nor the risk of making herself so vulnerable to emotion and attachment. I don't know her past, but the majority of these girls have been mistreated by men their entire lives. Thai men have cheated on them and left them with kids to support alone, and farang have passed them around like dogs in bars and hotels. Not to mention that being poor in a highly class driven society brings its own oppression from the country at large from birth. Women, indeed people, who've been subject to abuse, be it mental or physical, often require help and support to form healthy relationships again. Can we really expect a bar girl to love and trust a man she met in a bar? To take a promise of monogamy from a man who regularly uses prostitutes?The guy sounds lost, and I feel for him as he obviously has a lot of love to give and wanted to give it to her. She just wasn't a good choice, for various reasons. However, I think he should believe that much of what he saw on the isolation of that island was the "real her", and that it was not a personal attack on him, just a reflection of her life experience, which I am willing to bet has been for the most part a negative one.Sadly though Stickman only publishes such stories, real or not, to further dehumanize Thai woman. Thus his witty, intelligent analysis at the end, I quote: "Sounds like she really fucked you up big time. Still, imagine if you had got the wench back to Norway - then it would have really got bad!.Thanks for posting that link.
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        • Actually, the way I see it, if the setting of this story was in another country, it would have been the story of a woman cheating on her husband, by having an affair with that Norwegian man. During the months he spent back home the strong feeling that they shared had subsided, and she realized she should live in her country, with her husband who is the father of her child, with whom she has a history, and share the same language and culture. This is something that could have happened anywhere, with a women who doesn't sell her body for a living as well.The money part is just some icing on the cake. She could have used it as an excuse (for herself, for her friends, for her husband later on). I find it hard to expect her to ask that guy to stop sending her a monthly "allowance" when it means for her that she could stop work (as he said she did, which many times is not the case) and stay with her family and take care of her son. Or perhaps, as you said, she did not want to throw away her option to have a relationship with that guy if she chose to later on.I think nobody really knows the true story, and what went on in her mind, or her life, just by reading what the guy wrote on his post.I totally agree with you about Stickman's comment, for this particular story I also believe it wasn't appropriate, but I'd like to think he was just showing solidarity for the poor guy. I am not reading Stickman regularly, so I'll have to take your word that most stories are complaints about the wrongdoings of Thai women. It doesn't necessarily mean that he has some sort of agenda, though. These are the stories people want to write about when they are upset, and people want to read about as well because it is exciting (sex! money! drugs! clever scams! etc.). I don't think it would be too common for someone to feel like writing about how he got married to his dentist and how they live a happy life, or read about it either, it's a boring story.
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  72. Wow what a great blog. You really did a great job to explain how really is,the real truth.I've been in Thailand for many years and every time when i talk to bar girl it was ALWAYS a same story always those 3 things:Comes from Isaan,have no education,take care baby(ies) alone with no help whatsoever not even a child welfare,poor family.In fact i dont know even 1 bar girl who hasnt problems like that unfortunately. But one thing that is really annoying and sad is that people all over the world unfortunately have a bad image about Thailand.I give you an example: just search,look on internet,forums,youtube for a word thai girl.Everytime when you put word thai girl it comes along with a word prostitute. It really sad becouse of some people who visit Thailand and 99% of time spend in red light district and come back home and post wanker videos,posts about every thai lady is a prostitute,you should not trust them,they take you money etc.Its just stupid and moronic,its like going to amsterdam and talk every girl from Netherland is a prostitute. There are billions of streets in Thailand,does really couple of street make country look bad. Its really sad to hear if you mention thai girl somebody have to mantion word prostitute.Some people dont understand that there are millions of millions of normal thai girls in thailand so why looking for a prostitute.If you want to find a good girl dont look in a bad place. sorry for my english as im not a native speaker:-P
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    • @thaiger Don't apologise, you have made your points very clearly. No one can disagree that prostitution in Thailand isn't linked to poor families, lack of education, welfare and opportunity. Neither can anyone deny that it is fuelled by corruption on so many levels. Sadly people focus on this one aspect of Thailand, forgetting that the sex industry includes (only) approximately 1.7% of the population (65m). Isaan is disproportionately represented because of its size (25 million people - more than a third of the country) but it should be noted that there are women from areas all over Thailand (incl Bangkok) involved in the industry.
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  73. Hi interesting post. I just want to share some of my knowledge about the prostitution thing in Thailand. I have a bestfriend there who is working in an office. She was relocated there from Singapore because of requirement in Phuket office. She lived very well here in our country(not SG). I can say that she doesn't need to work but she chose to because she is a professional and wanted to see the world. I can consider her as rich as some falang who do travel a lot and lived with extravagance in every country. She consider relocation there because her brother has business there. blah blah..She shared to me one thing she knows about the staffs in her office. She found out that a group of staffs in her office is also engaged in the bar scene and confirmed that they go to the bar every night after office and some are "freelance" there who has private transactions with falang and many has regular allowance from their falang boyfriend. She also investigated this. And since then we try to figure out why they are doing these things since they have a DECENT income in the company she is also working at. I have to say that your blog helps a lot to help me understand the pressure that these girls are facing in their society. But at some point it still leaves me some confusion and just want to take it from there until I find my own internal understanding with the whole "bar scene". Thanks a lot.
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    • Hi Vanessa. I have never heard of office women leaving the office and going straight to a bargirl job for a night's work (in say soi cowboy or nana), surely the 3-4 hour's sleep wouldn't be sufficient each night to perform an office job. However, I have heard of office women, who don't need the money (as you said) going to freelance in bars and discos. There is, however, a distinct difference between these women and the average uneducated, single mother from relative rural poverty in the stereotypical ladybar role.Okay, so both effectively engage in prostitution. But the office working freelancer who doesn't need to charge may be doing this for one of the following reasons:1. A simple thrill. An alter ego-cum-secret lifestyle could be quite exciting. Office worker by day - hooker by night. 2. She gets to choose her client. She doesn't really need the money so she can be selective. She doesn't need to go with sixty-something men if she's at a loose end for her rent. 3. Perhaps some of these single office worker women simply think, "Hey, all these girls taking cash for sex in the discos, and there's me having one night stands with foreigners for nothing! Well, I might as well charge because I can...and enjoy the sex!" 4. No ties to any mafia boss, mama sang, or one particular bar. No drug addicted or alcoholic friends hanging around trying to borrow money - this side of the fence doesn't really feel like prostitution at all, I guess. 5. Also consider that an office worker in Bangkok (University educated) probably isn't earning more than 25-30k (per moth) at say 25 yrs old, and they need a lot more than that if they are to live the hi-so existence so many aspire to. There is a massive "must keep up with the Jones's" culture in this city.You will find freelancers in the cities of Thailand, China, Singapore, Japan, Cambodia, all over Asia. Where sex in exchange for money is commonplace a "culture" will naturally evolve, and perhaps that's what's happening here. And if a woman who doesn't need the money but likes to have sex with guys she finds attractive wants to make money on it then it's her choice.
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  76. I like your blog! I don't know how I got to this post, but I started and couldn't stop reading the post all the way down to the last response.As everyone can agree it's a complex issue. But lets break it down into two groups and reasons.Buyer- Anyone who is willing to pay for temporary or extended companionshipWant: Someone to talk/wipe their ass/sex up/clean their house/learn thai* (BS)Risk: losing sight of a normal relationship, getting a STD, getting robbed, spending all their money.Seller- Anyone willing to engage in sexual acts for money.Want: More money. Wanting more money has either increased or decreased their standard of living personally or as a family.For instance: A Brown bar girl from Isaan that works on Soi Cow Boy and is reasonably attractive/young could make 3,000 or more baht a day on average. That's already doubling the wage of a college graduate without rich connections.A pale tofu skinned, scared of the sun, university student, model could make 10,000 baht or more a day screwing old rich Thai dudes.If anything someone should teach the girls that choose to go into the line of risky work how to preserve their commodity they sell by not eating bad food, and working out.Risk: STD, Debt to the pimp/bar, meaningful relationshipBottom line. If people stopped buying chicken the market would stop selling chicken.Since this is a realistic world of people that engage in desire (anything you don't need to live) it will not happen. If you do not gamble you will not die, if you do not have sex you will not die, if you do not drink you will not die, yet we all die so it's your choice in how you use your body. All I'm asking is to please shower if you eat curry every day. A hot Thai bus with a back of Bangladesh workers on it smells the same as if you lit a bag of hair and a used baby diaper on fire.Monopolies exist in Thailand. Just ask any "Thai" you meet with a long Sanskrit name, they'll tell you the same.A good friend of mine is college educated in the US, and she's trying to get a job in Bangkok selling BMW cars. They will pay her 7,000 baht a month plus commission. She hopes to earn around 30k baht a month. She turned down a job recently selling 20 million baht apartments that paid 20k baht flat with commission. She's smart and educate, but she mainly got the job offers for being pale and young, she knows this. A side from all this, single women get paid more then married women in Thailand. Why? Because if the business owner can find a way to pay you less they will.People's desires get them into trouble. Sadly that's all people have to live on, if they are not taught by them self or others how to ask questions to themselves and their surroundings.We are all victims of our environment regardless of how good or bad that is. I have a very rich Thai** friend living here that's single and 37 years old. You know how hard it is for her to find a husband? Her family will only let her marry someone that has more money then her. Most Thai guys that have more money then her are too busy paying 5,000 baht a go with a FHM model. She's screwed.At the end of the day the "Buyer" and "Seller" make their own decisions and take their own risks. In Thailand, if you don't have connections for a good job and you want more money then the market is willing to pay you, you get lucky or take a higher risk.P.S. Burmese day laborers make around 200-300 baht a day you can live on that in Thailand but you will sleep in a shack, get dark skin and clauses. No one will want to marry you so you can sit on the sofa eating candy watching soap operas... Oops did I just write that?? Oh well, I'm sticking with it.Keep up the good work on the blog!
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    • You coined many a true point here Kee Nok. And one thing remains a constant amidst broad debate on this subject; the hand holding the cash is the whip hand, and that man is inevitably the white foreigner or better off Asian. So money is able to buy the soul of young women, or at least the right to a normal life, a normal loving, sexual relationship with someone her own age with the same interests, etc. There are girls lining the streets of sukhumvit of a night these days, more than ever, not even in the bars. The faces are younger, the desperation and naivety more apparent. As you point out the market is thriving, the investor is hungry. These girls have become a commodity; stripped of their humanity and sold as flesh. Perhaps cleverly convinced - albeit unspoken - by the market that this is a solid career choice for a poor, uneducated girl with dependents to support. In reality these women are treated worse than dogs, yet we forget, these are our human sisters, they represent our daughters and our mothers. And so we have two choices. To use our money to gratify ourselves, to fulfil our sordid fantasies and boost our laboured ego, or to in some way help better educate and finance better choices. To join a movement of change for the greater good, in some way. To learn to respect these women instead of simply desiring to dominate them and abuse them in true colonial fashion. Just because Thai society supports and arguably engineers the state of play, doesn't mean we have to play ball.In a way the bar girls are the more privileged of the industry. Many from poor areas are bought and resold very young in Korea, Japan, China and in brothels in thailand where they barely see the light of day. I was only reading today that the industry is morphing; the demand is so high now for whiter skin girls in thailand - because northern Thai girls aren't going into the industry as much as they once did, yes the north was the hub of prostitution in Thailand before the Isaan invasion - that more women are trafficked into Thailand from poor parts of Southern China than Thais going into the industry domestically.So I ask my fellow white europeans/westerners, are we to continue propping up what is at the core a cruel, pernicious and misanthropic industry, and continue to plough money into funding the pimps, the mafia, the aristocracy and all the others who benefit from the exploitation of what is largely the marginalised, underprivileged, rural poor, who bewilderedly follow a superficial dream of money and respect = elevation of face and family, or do choose to do something positive.Shame on us.
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  77. yes life is tough and unfair. Some people die young or are forced to go to war too.That's nice article very idealistic and bit self righteous too. I wouldn't judge the old farts going over there too as I am not old yet.It's easy and big money for most of them so some go for it but some don't. they are free. Go to Europe, see the prostitution over there, that's slavery and mafia involved, tha'ts disgusting. Get offended about that, its real
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    • Yep, the author simply doesn't know enough (and he should count himself lucky that he doesn't!)By the way, why do so many farang women live here now and why so many farang men who don't come here for the p4p choose to live here, I wonder?Think about it. A lot of them will be living here mainly because it's easy and ...... it's CHEAP.In other words, they take advantage of the lower cost of living here. Curiously they don't worry about the wages of the shop workers as they go around the malls or the security guards in their apartment blocks. They don't think too much about the wages of the masseuses in the legimate massage places, the wages in any restaurants or any local places they take advantage of on a daily basis. They also don't think about the effect of more farangs living there pushing up housing prices. Of course they don't think about any of this... they want costs to stay low... they're taking advantage as much (and perhaps more) as any guy indulging in p4p.
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  78. You are 100% correct. I've been a student of Thailand and everything Thai for the past 37 years. Living here since 2000. Often hear a old wise guy tell me , I well educated in the West have a master degree and 60 years plus. Found this gal who is 23 and only has a 6th grade education. Talk to the guy 24 months later about his stupid girl with the 5th grade education has cleaned him out of all his saving, house, new car, gold etc etc. So, I listen and tink to myself yeah so you're a smart guy and think you're getting over on a gal with a 6th grade education.
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      • That's the knee-jerk reaction. Have you ever thought twice about your own prejudices?"Som nam na". An old guy has been conned out of his life savings. And he's old, he's got no working life left, no chance to start again. And you laugh?Why? Because he succumbed to emotions or because he was so concerned with sex after maybe a hard life? That's such a bad thing that the guy deserves to lose all his worldly goods and future? And the girl's behaviour is OK in your eyes?Now I'm not this guy's age - I'm much closer to yours - but, for me, you saying the easy "som nam na" here is pretty much like saying "som nam na" to a gay guy who's slept around and got HIV/AIDS. That guy would have been where he was through his love of sex and own irresponsible behaviour but he doesn't deserve something of that magnitude to happen to him in my opinion and I bet you wouldn't say "som nam na" there.
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    • This is so prevalent. Farang looking down on the women expecting their intelligence to overwhelm these women lacking in education. It's profound pay back and I love it. I won't waste time in making judgement but individual response to bad situations is just that 'INDIVIDUAL'. A course their are societal dynamics that drive a person both good and bad. First of all, I see human being and I won't be a dilutional purist nor a heartless scum. I have admiration, "making lemonade out of lemons". I've seen entrepreneurial bar girls as well as materialistic ones. I wish them all luck (chok dee) & love (rak)
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  79. You probably are holier than me, using phrases like 'consorting with prostitutes'. It reminds me of Victorian Dad.I don't see anyone 'justifying' being around prostitutes. That would need posts saying things like "I stay with prostitutes because..." and I don't see any like that, just (mostly) intelligent comments around what the blogger wrote (which wasn't "Why do you consort with prostitutes?") The reason why you don't see these posts is because no one cares about 'justifying' these things. They're all long past that. No one even thought of it until you came into the picture with your Victorian Dad oddness.
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  80. Good, honest blog...all critical response is for the most part from people attempting to justify consorting with prostitutes or living a life surrounded by prostıtution. Such people are the real backbone of the sex tourist industry (read Dean Barretts blog ıf you want to see terrific example of an articulate whore monger)......they will never agree with a blog such as this...how could they?
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    • I just see a discussion, with people adding intelligent points relevant to the blog from their experience and discussion continuing. Apart from your sanctimonious last comment, that is. It's a blog entry about bar girls. People who know the most about the subject will have been 'consorting with prostitutes' at some time.
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  81. I have spent sufficient time to go through all the blogs from author and other people.What I believe is there are 2 sides of each coin. We need to take precautions at all stages, whether we are in our country or some other.Of course I would like to say "Hats Off" to the author since he had dared to write something which is not written in any other blogs. Somebody has to write in the direction where no body is looking at.I would also say that "bibblies" has got point. So it is everybody's perception to look at the things or the cases they might come across.But I recommend the thoughts of the Author. In my country also, people tell lies, do cheating and gets the money by those means. So why to blame Thai Girls for that, it can happen anywhere. We need to be cautions the way we do in business (see ups and downs) and take decisions.Just getting too involved and blindly taking any decision (of helping financially) is too risky and hands might get burned. If you really love someone or crazy about any girl, then support her to get out of the bar business and get her settled in some way where she can live with pride and stand on her own feet. Even if she will not earn what she might be earning in bar but she can live with kids & family very happily. If this cannot happen, then I believe there is no point in supporting the girls since they might be utilizing the guys just for their money and not for love or affection.Every person has dark & bright side and we have to analyze properly before taking such decisions.Poor education and less financial sources may be the true areas where something really should happen from government side to eliminate. It is cause of concern for many countries where poor education and less job opportunities in government or industrial sectors.I cannot really comment on which side I am but I liked the post very much by Author and also some of the points by "bibblies". We should be human to think about the girls and their problems and try to solve with other means and not by just giving them money but also right direction to spend and utilize the money. And also by checking if the money is being utilized properly or not.This is the same case where we pay the taxes to country and we keep check on government that tax money getting utilized for people's benefit and not going in wrong hands for politicians or bureaucrats. Then there would be no problem. So trust your instincts and find out more details and then you can take appropriate action like trusting the girl or not. If you have a long term plan then I don't think there is any problem. Any short term plan might fail resulting problems in both ends.And of course such blogs will help the other guys a lot.
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  82. I'd like to offer my 2 cents of anecdotal evidence.I guess I'm an overall friendly guy with a normal thirst for beer and conversation, and speaking a bit of broken Thai in some of the tourist spots got me to befriend a few of the girls. Not sure exactly on what level that puts me on the "bargirl scale" but I would like to think it's not at the bottom rung. I remember one story that really struck me.During a vacation I made friends with one of the girls in a bar, and we stayed in touch after I left that area. She's from Isaan and stays there for most of the off-season, so when I had to make a visa run I was invited to visit her at her village, and for a few days I was living in their house.She had the most welcoming family, she was living with her parents, siblings, and her teen daughter, and i was living in their house for the duration of my stay. They were not extremely rich of course, but they were pretty well off. My friend have managed to snare a few sponsors that sent her money regularly and it paid for more than what would be necessary for a comfortable life.I think this is a point that was yet to be made: if it was so universal that the girls suffer in the bars, why are some of those girls that found a sponsor continue to work in the bar? Once they were out of that financial mud, what would make them want to return?I was there when the guys called, I have listened to her asking for money. I have seen the money transfer papers she filed neatly in a folder. I have seen the pride she had in that pile of papers when she showed them to me.A few months later I returned to the same tourist spot, and came by to meet her. She told me her daughter is there too, and she would be very happy to meet me too, but when I came to see her that evening I could not meet her daughter. And why is that? With the same pride in her eyes she told me that her daughter already went with some farang.As I tried to figure out what's going on in her mind, why would she send her own daughter down this path, where it is quite clear they have no stressing need for cash, I realized she was just passing on her "trade". I guess that in her mind what she was doing was a very rewarding career!Of course that is only one story, but among the mothers who strive to feed their babies (sure have seen lots of them), I have also seen those college students who thought it would be cool to get a new iPhone and "allowance" from handsome foreigners from time to time. Among girls who ran away from their shitty homes and abusive parents and decided they could gain their independence by selling their bodies, I also met girls that were seeking adventure from what they thought to be a mundane life, girls that appear to genuinely have insatiable libidos and figured out that they could turn a few baht as well, and one particular odd girl that told me her father does not allow her to date the local guys so she went to find a farang boyfriend in the worst possible way. I have seen the girls that gave the bar a try and ran away never to return. Although I will never know if what these girls told me was true or just a feel-good story, I have been in enough situations to convince myself they were not all made up.I can also tell you that from what I have seen, although probably most girls will be destroyed by having this way of life, there are a few of them who are strong enough, and can leverage themselves and use their advantage to get far ahead of where they would have been otherwise. Look at the smart girl in the bar who doesn't throw away her gains on gambling, methamphetamine, or karaoke guys, and you may see her owning that bar sooner than you'd expect.My point is: You will never be able to see the whole picture by telling the story of one girl you know, because I'm sure you could find another one who will disprove your theory. Not all the guys sitting in those bars are the same, and similarly neither are all of the girls. As everything in life, it is more complicated than what you see on the surface, and there are many surprises everywhere you turn.
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  83. Lol - Like it "Heres me writing about why I don't write about bar girls to drive traffic" whilst writing about bar girls and thus driving traffic. Clever stuff that. Thought you were being ironic for a moment. Maybe you were. To be fair what you say is sensible. . . I guess why not cash in on it?
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  84. I forgot to comment on the UK scroungers bit. Although they're despicable in their own way, I don't think it's quite as bad being a parasite on the state or taxpayer. That's spread over many people, unknown people and it can be rationalised away. Although it's wrong, it's not as bad as knowingly sending your own daughters to sell themselves so you can gamble/get a nicer TV/brag to the village.
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    • No reply option on your post? Are you getting tired?TheThailandLife, you met one bargirl's parents for 4 days. Doubtless the story's true but I've met more, over more time. Of the ones I know, usually the families/parents aren't so hard working. Usually they're 'too old' to work.Interesting that the girl gave up the house and the car if she was married. Had she signed to complete the marriage legally? Were those the guy's before the marriage (it sounds unlikely). Even if she hadn't signed, I know another girl really well who's been married a few times (always to Thais). She recently broke up with the last guy and had to be convinced by her sister to pursue the 50% of assets. Left to herself she was going to call it fate and let the guy sell it all for himself or keep it. And she hadn't signed.Very few girls die of cancer at 23. Are you sure the underlying cause wasn't something else?"What is most concerning is the general lack of compassion by expats and Thais, and the lack of effort on behalf of anyone to educate families on the dangers of letting their daughters fall into this industry.... Who knows, who cares…it was their choice, right?"Well ultimately you didn't care enough about this girl to make her your GF, support her financially, etc, did you? It would have brought you down socially, financially, compromised your beliefs, your life, whatever. Ultimately while you sat on the sidelines being compassionate, you didn't really support her. Maybe things might have been different if you had?
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      • sorry, unsure why there is no reply option? Will look into that. I am unsure about the marriage and other finer details. As for my friend I couldn't tell you. Perhaps she had cancer at a young age and was in remission until it returned.In regards to the girl I was fond of; we never had anything physical and if I had pursued that it wouldn't have been fair because I didn't want a GF at the time. I got the feeling she felt she was better off without a full time BF anyway; guys would return intermittently and she would be their GF for the duration. I am sure this provided enough for her son and parents. I was compassionate with her and didn't judge her for what she was doing. She was open about it. We had some good laughs as friends.
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        • I was implying that it could have been called cancer like Jermaine Stewart's death was called 'cancer' (at first), given her occupation and age. Doesn't really matter either way - just as sad to die so young.Fair enough that you didn't want to be her boyfriend. What I was pointing out there, in reply to your allegation that there was a "general lack of compassion by expats and Thais, and the lack of effort on behalf of anyone to educate families on the dangers of letting their daughters fall into this industry" was that it takes an extraordinary amount of time, effort, pain, patience and, usually, money to get involved enough with just one of these girls and change her life and you yourself know that. Despite your sympathy, would you ever do it?There are plenty of nice farang guys with compassion but usually the girl or the girl and combined with the weight of family, will drag the guy down and, often, drag the guy with her. Would you want to spend precious years of your life like that? Or wreck your business trying to give people chance after chance? You have to be a combination of saint, teacher, masochist and idiot.Read the ThailandGuru entry about 'Good guys trying to help often get burned' and the cases where he tried to give chances to girls and imagine if you could take that, time after time, until a girl changes (and her family changes).
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  85. With respect, you seem to be only on bargirl level 2 or 3 (yes, there's a standard scale ;) ), asking about their backgrounds in bars and refuges. Do you take everything they say at face value? You need to live with a few for some time, enough of them and for enough time and you'll realise that what they say often doesn't tally with the behaviour and the reality you see. They'll want themselves to be seen in the best light. Haven't you noticed that Thai trait? It applies to them. (I don't blame you for not living with any, by the way. I don't generally recommend it!)Of course they'll always say they go into the trade for the good of their families or children, of course their families are nice people, of course the customers are bad and of course the Thai former boyfriends or the farangs they broke up with are bad. You need to stay with them and check, not just listen to their stories. Everybody wants to show themselves in the best light but Thais more than most nations because of 'face'. They'll paint themselves in the best light, not just to you but to themselves.You haven't met bargirls from outside the North or North East and they always have dependents to 'support'? You don't know enough. I know girls from Bangkok, girls who start part-time supposedly to help pay for university or other studies, who are different at first and noticeably more polite than their Isaan cousins but you'll still see them a year, 2 years, 3 years later. By that time they will have a tattoo or two, they may have gone abroad to Singapore or Hong Kong (to 'work'), and their 'studies' will still not have finished.I suggest the bug is in these girls already and they're somewhat complicit in it.Your theory of it being due to cultural pressure and poverty falls down when you just look around at similarly poor girls in the same culture who DON'T do this, whose parent's DON'T push them (explicitly or implicitly). They're the majority.
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    • I tend to think they are telling me the truth because I level with them. I have never been into the "scene" and make it clear i am not interested in money-sex relations. They enjoy the conversation because i treat them like humans, don't fondle them and using my limited thai chat to them like i would anyone else. They know there is nothing to get out of me so they drop the act and just talk; a welcome break from the sexpests they have to deal with I'm sure. But you're right, I've never lived with a bargirl so I don't have that experience. But as I said previously, I have worked with a number of women at the refuge who are clearly from very poor backgrounds and have been abused in a number of ways. Not all in the tourist scene but many in the thai-thai prostitution scene.i am not saying some girls don't choose money for sex as an easier option to work. I am not saying some uni girls don't do it for kicks or extra cash. And I am not saying that the majority aren't being pressured by parents to send money home which is then wasted on gambling and booze. But the point is that the large majority have dependents, have no education, no welfare support, no back to work/education schemes available, and little choice; not all, but many. Take a look at the girls hanging around the Westin hotel near Asoke station in Bangkok for example. these girls look malnourished, dirty, and beaten down. Many are clearly on drugs and more akin to the type of street hookers you get in the back streets of Soho in London. Hell, these girls aren't even good enough for the bars. It's sad, and whatever the reasons for going into the game, many end up abused, both mentally and physically. I took a walk a couple of months back from nana station to asoke on my way home. It was saddening, the amount of very young girls lined up along the streets like peices of meat. It is getting worse and worse, and is happening outside of the confines and pretense of the bars. Are you telling me there is a future out there for all these girls? Career options, government support, a job that will pay enough for a decent, clean 1 bed apartment and proper education for their children? Come on guys, look at the real issues here, look beyond the parents and at the socio-political game at large here.It baffles me as to why foreigners always comment on this subject as if they expect these girls to accept less for their lives they they would accept for themselves or their kids. So you want all these girls and their children to live on the breadline forever so you can say, "see they have a choice". You aren't living in a reality. You want them to stand back and let the ruling classes dictate their lives forever. Born poor stay poor. Forget the parents gambling and drinking the money away and try and walk in the shoes of the average bar girl from a shack in Yasathorn somewhere. Left school at 13, pregnant by 15, husband drinks, gambles, and leaves. She gets a job, parents say it isn't enough; and of course, as the culture dictates, youngest single daughter should be supporting the family, and so the pressure mounts until a cousin/friend on an island or in the city says come and work at my work there are lots of foreigners here who give you money....and so it goes. You would be surprised just how many country people have no idea of this industry until they hit the big cty. For example, my gfs sister had never heard of girls selling themselves with farangs in nana and cowboy. Of course she knows of karaoke bars, but was genuinely shocked when i showed her some pictures online. Many of these girls come to the big city with no clue, and are led by the example of whoever gives them a roof over their head. You see it all the time in bkk. Everyone knows where a bargirl is getting on going to work because she looks so out of sorts, unable to walk in heels and no city etiquette. They feel the stares and they feel low, but what else have they got? Go back back to the rice fields for 80 baht a day? Do what 6 generations before them were doing? Risk letting her daughter become like her? Let her parents down (the cardinal thai sin), lose all face in the village? ........What seems to be lacking in this debate is any concern or compassion for the girls. It is far too general to say all bar girls are there by choice and are lazy good for nothings. The refuge I have visited proves this isn't the case. As I have said, no young girl grows up aspiring to service filthy old western men on a nightly basis, there is a sequence of events that leads to this. To go completely against one's 'thainess" and religion takes more than just a choice of "oh go on then I might as well do that". It is all to easy to say, "yea but I know a girl who worked in MK and then became a hooker etc.." Come on, the majority of bar girls look one of the same; dark skinned upcountry girls from poor families. When was the last middle-class, fair skinned thai girl you saw working in a bar? Which suggests what guys? They are poor, lower class people with little privilege and opportunity in comparison to the middle classes and elite.in previous answers you have evaded many of my key points. How can a girl with 2 kids support herself and them with 6000-7000 baht as a cleaner or else. The majority of half decent jobs require a degree, or at the very least school finishing papers. If you don't have these then what other way can you follow to try and make a better life for your family? Okay, yes, the parents may squander the money, but the point is the girl goes in sacrificing her own happiness to try and create increased prosperity for her family. And in truth most want to find a rich farang quick and get out. You can say "they have a choice" and question why some do it and some don't..."they are a different breed" you say. Indeed they are. The same way some people become entrepreneurs and take risks and others sit behind a desk all their lives. Certain girls bite the bullet and do the deed, others would rather cut their own wrists and end it; others drink every night to numb the sex, many take yabaa to go all night; most just become comfortably numb and a shadow of their former selves.And then what of the farangs who then enter relationships with bar girls post the bar? they complain the bar girls are dishonest, lying, cheating, moody, etc. Slagging them off on forums and dehumanising them to their mates when the girl runs off with cash or a younger version. What the hell do they expect when guys just like them have been dominating the girls like dogs night in night out for god knows how long. What do they expect when most of them would never have chosen to marry a farang growing up, or to ever sleep with one, let alone one as old as their Dad. What do you expect from uneducated farm girls with nothing whatsoever in common with western life, culture, intellect, etc. I know some foreigners do have successful relationships with bar girls and have happy ever after, and I think that's wonderful. These girls are human beings, and like each and every one of us, want love and deserve love. But when you analyse their life pre and during the bar, it is no wonder so many end up desperately unhappy and unable to have proper relationships. All the money in the world can't make up for being abused by undesirable, and used as a cash cow by greedy parents, not to mention being marginalised and looked down upon by their fellow countrymen.
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      • "I tend to think they are telling me the truth because I level with them. I have never been into the “scene” and make it clear i am not interested in money-sex relations. They enjoy the conversation because i treat them like humans, don’t fondle them and using my limited thai chat to them like i would anyone else. They know there is nothing to get out of me so they drop the act and just talk; a welcome break from the sexpests they have to deal with I’m sure. "You're really only on level 2 if you believe this. I remember when I used to believe this. Don't you know Thais? Think. Yes, you'll get some truth but they won't confront it all, even to themselves. You have to stay with them or know them a long long time for that.
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      • "But the point is that the large majority have dependents, have no education, no welfare support, no back to work/education schemes available, and little choice; not all, but many"You don't explain why the majority, in the same situation, don't do it - don't push their kids or don't want the transient material goods or 'face'. Your arguments completely fall down on that point alone.I know people in the same families or extended families who don't go down the same route and, guess what? They're fine. They have normal lives. Maybe they don't have the very latest phone but that's just like life in the West."Take a look at the girls hanging around the Westin hotel near Asoke station in Bangkok for example. these girls look malnourished, dirty, and beaten down. Many are clearly on drugs and more akin to the type of street hookers you get in the back streets of Soho in London. Hell, these girls aren’t even good enough for the bars." I know some and their back stories."Are you telling me there is a future out there for all these girls?" Career options, government support, a job that will pay enough for a decent, clean 1 bed apartment and proper education for their children?" Yes. As I say, I know girls from the same family as hookers or ex-hookers. It's possible, if their parents don't pressure them or if they resist the pressure and bad choices. Choices, in the end. Just like everywhere really. You're going back to level 1 here. Tell us why poorer countries than Thailand don't have a bigger hooker problem?"When was the last middle-class, fair skinned thai girl you saw working in a bar? Which suggests what guys? They are poor, lower class people with little privilege and opportunity in comparison to the middle classes and elite" I know one who works the streets between Nana and Asoke, let alone a bar. Middle class, tall, white, Chinese-Thai, all her siblings are professionals... she's been doing it for years, talks about it as her 'career'. Some people have different attitudes.You seem to be demonising farangs too much. In my experience, farangs are much kinder to the girls than their countrymen and women.
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        • I commented on this thread a while back and as such keep getting the responses in my inbox. You astonish me.Why are you so unwilling to admit that there are girls out there stuck in this trade against their will? Why are you so unwilling to admit that it's a shitty life? Do you think they're happy, deep down, even if they chose the life? You accuse the author of this thread of being fooled by the girls he's interacted with and taking things at face value... you think it's any different when you see a girl who talks about it as her 'career'? You think any girl in this life is going to tell you the honest truth even once you live with her and know her for a long time? It's ALL a game, and the name of the game is play or get played. Whatever a girl can say she will, in order to appear to walk tall, or to gain sympathy. Either way she's playing this game with the truth for a reason - because her life is not a fairy-tale and given a better choice, she'll fight for it.You are seeming to accuse the author of the blog of only telling one side of the story, and then turning around and presenting your side of the story as if it's the ONLY side of the story! Obviously seeing as you both base your view-points on first-hand evidence, then the truth includes all aspects of both your arguments.And what is with this ranking for Bar-Girl levels? Like it's a badge of honour? Like you're better then the author because you know so much more and you're at level 999? To me that doesn't make you better, it means you've been walking down a few too many red-lit streets in Bangkok for far too long. Seems like somewhere along the way you lost your compassion.Finally: Who are you trying to convince of your beliefs that the bar girls choose this life and love farang because they are so much nicer than thai men etc etc? Us, or yourself?
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          • You seem to be angry about something without cause. Read back to my first post, the one that begins "What you say contains a lot of truth but it seems to miss what to me is the most shameful thing..."That one says it all. I'm hard on the parents (usually the mother) exploiting the girls for ends that usually aren't even noble and am scathing of their motives, what they do to their children and the society that lets this happen. The rest is mainly me reacting to TheThailandLife trying to blame poverty and trying to excuse the mothers doing this in some way as victims of society, as if their choices to keep up with the Joneses and piss money away being more important than their daughters' welfare is is excusable or even understandable in any way. Having being in the middle of that many times, I don't excuse it. I think those mothers are scum.I don't say there weren't girls 'forced' into it, that's a strawman argument. I do blame parental pressure. But I've noticed that the girls have a slight role in enabling this pressure, that some girls can resist it and do. That some grow to like certain things about it, the power and the thrill of having money, etc. That they find it hard to give it up. Maybe if you went through the pain of caring about someone who wouldn't give it up so easily, you might see it.As for the rest - e.g. "You accuse the author of this thread of being fooled by the girls he’s interacted with and taking things at face value… you think it’s any different when you see a girl who talks about it as her ‘career’? You think any girl in this life is going to tell you the honest truth even once you live with her and know her for a long time?", well it's common sense that a guy who lives with someone and sees their every ACTION every day as well as the words, never mind their family environment and friends, will be able to form a better opinion after many years of that than someone who only speaks to girls in the bars and refuges. So often actions will contradict words. I don't apologise for using common sense here.Bar girl levels? It's just a mechanism I made up for the layers that you have to wade through (and that I'm still wading through). I'm sure the author, knowing about Thais, would have thought twice when I reminded him that Thais will be telling a story to appear better even to themselves, let alone you. My experiences are first hand, living with a girl every day in a relationship for years, you will learn a lot more. I don't see that the author's are. I think he'll admit that.Level 2 is an off the cuff thing, saying that there are guys who don't care at all, who never talk or notice the girls, just have sex with them. Other guys who have sex, talk a bit but don't know any Thai. Then guys who learn Thai well and talk to them, don't have sex with them. (I guess that's higher than level 2 there!) But it's still not the same as living with them and SEEING their lives, their ACTIONS as well as the words. I don't think any Thai will tell the truth but seeing much more of their actions and words every single day makes it easier to form a judgement. I think the author has admitted he's never met the parents of a bargirl, for example.The 'career' girl is a bit different from the usual in her mentality as well. She simply does detach it as a career that makes good money, she isn't damaged by it apart from that. She's quite old for her profession and started late. She's quite similar to me in many ways, actually!Your final paragraph just seems to be you assuming I'm one of those stereotype old fat bald farang who disparages Thai men. It's all strawman stuff. When you live with bargirls for a long time you get to know their friends' or sisters' boyfriends and they're not bad in most cases.
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            • Just one correction there before Adrian replies. I have met the parents of a bar girl. It was through a friend who was invited to her home in the North and invited me along. They were a lovely family and made us very welcome (we stayed 4 days in a local apartment block), but clearly they were turning a blind eye to what their daughter was doing to support her three children. I guess they only had two choices though, ignore it and hope she'd strike it lucky meeting a rich foreigner, or tell their daughter she was betraying them and her faith by doing such work and instead should work in the rice fields and struggle to give her 3 kids a life mildly better than her own had been.While at her home we learned a lot of her story. She really had fallen from grace, and I do believe the bar was a last resort. She left her husband because of years of cheating, in doing so she left the home and car they shared. Her Dad has a building business which is profitable in periods, but others in the family still work the rice fields to plug the gaps. If it was just a few mouths to feed I am sure things would have been different, but with 2 other kids still living at home, a wife, the grandparents, 3 grandkids and her 3 kids to support, moving back home meant she had to pull her weight and provide. She sold food at first locally, but it isn't exactly a busy town so they wasn't making much. She was then enticed by another girl whom she called her "cousin", to go to a bar on samui and work. My friend first met her when she had only been there six weeks or so and was wiping down tables and cashiering and didn't approach farangs, although we learned she had been with a few guys. One thing led to another and my friend got involved, even against the advice of other expats who had walked the road before. It ended when he had to move back home, but I know he still has a lot of love for her. She is a good, gentle person, and fun to be around, and would never have ended up in that bar had life not played out some bad cards and fate thrown up the avenue. Her family were clearly struggling for cash, she had no financial support for her 3 kids from her ex husband, and she felt desperately bad on her mother struggling with her kids and the other grandkids.I have no reason to believe her story was a lie; bits and pieces were filled in by friends and my friend had met her in the bar so that couldn't be covered up. Regardless, she didn't want to work in a bar. Last I heard her mum died of cancer and she was at home selling food again.While I am here I will gloss over an early experience.In my very early days of living in Thailand I was friends with a group of freelancers who were always in the disco i went to. They were lovely people; even invited me to a BBQ for a birthday once - it was a totally different experience seeing them all no make-up & no heels not playing up to the farangs. Two in particular became good friends. One liked me a lot and in truth I liked her, but we had a sort of understanding that it was pointless; she knew I wouldn't make her my GF and wasn't going to supporting her financially, and she had to do what she did to make money. The other friend died unfortunately. Another victim of Cancer. She disappeared one day, and months later I enquired of her whereabouts with a friend, who explained she'd gone home to her province to die. That got to me quite a bit. She was about 23, and pretty much her entire adult life was spent night after night in the same disco dancing for drinks and sleeping with guys for cash. All the girls had had kids very young and were sending money home to support them. One thing that sticks in my mind is that they felt proud to show me pictures of their kids - i guess it made it all worthwhile.Whatever drives the individual choice, or whatever the motivation of greedy parents, by and large the endings aren't happy for the girls that enter the bar scene. What is most concerning is the general lack of compassion by expats and Thais, and the lack of effort on behalf of anyone to educate families on the dangers of letting their daughters fall into this industry, not to mention the lack of investment in social development to offer viable alternatives that offer a promising and prosperous future. What of the kids of the bargirls? What of the bar girls who get HIV and other STDs? Who knows, who cares...it was their choice, right?
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  86. "Yes, no one starves in Thailand, but like you and I, and every other person in a capitalist society, the carrot is dangling in front of the donkey and we aspire to be better off, to give our kids the things we never had, to make our parents proud of us, and in the case of these Thai women, to honour the family name and elevate the face of one’s family. And when I say “aging parents” I mean parents getting older, who are of course are looking after their parents who also will be without a pension, state or private."In the cases I've seen, the money is not used to elevate the family's standing or anything that would better a family's life for the future. It is wasted for gambling, or it's used for throwing big parties in the village, it's used for spending on boyfriends. I've sat in a bar with a girl I knew well who was crying because her mother wouldn't talk to her. Her crime? Not sending enough money home. She'd just sent 20,000B a week ago and it was gone. She didn't have a kid. The mother was just partying and treating her own boyfriend and not giving a shit about her own daughter.Face, having fun, parents not caring, people not condemning others for their behaviour. That's why there's so much prostitution here. That and irresponsible fathers running away.You go on about the parents being trapped in consumer culture, blah, blah. But at some point, when they're sitting there in their home with air conditioners, flat screen TV, microwave, etc, more comfortable than they'd ever thought they'd be, they have to consider their daughters before the next party or gambling night or pick-up truck upgrade.
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    • I completely agree, but that's the tragedy; the belief that having more will bring happiness or a better life, when in fact, like you say, all that happens is gambling, drinking, and wasting money on frivolous stuff. The majority of these parents didn't finish school and neither did their daughters; money management and investment isn't going to be a strong point. this isn't exclusive to Thailand. in the UK there are plenty of people buying expensive cars, gambling at the casino, drinking in pubs, buying on credit and living off the state with benefits and council houses. This is no different, except they are parasites to the state and taxpayer rather than to their daughters. The rich get richer because they are generally smarter with money and don't have the "poor man's complex" that makes a person invest in short term materialism to feed their insecurities of feeling worthless, poor, uneducated, looked down on, etc...Another point is this: even if a family does build a nice home, invest in a business and manage the money well, their class ranking won't change. They will always be "bann nock" (lower class country bumpkins) in the eyes of the upper echelons of society. Plus the fact that people know their daughter is a hooker, so the face is destroyed before the wealth is accumulated anyway. No one wins here, the families drink and gamble themselves into depression and debt, and the daughters destroy their souls and any chance of a relatively normal life.Whenever I have been to a bar or place with working girls I always ask any that speak with me about their background; where are are you from, have you got kids, did you finish school, etc. The answer is always the same, North or Northeast, occasionally South, kids yes, didn't finish school or no higher education. When I lived in Samui I must have encountered 100s of women all with the same story, the same in Bangkok when I get dragged to the cess pits that are nana and cowboy by visiting friends who want to live out the eurocentric vision of Thailand. This points to the fact the women enter the industry due to being poor or being from a poor family, and the fact that they have dependents to support. It is a last choice, not the first choice. Whether or not the money is squandered once it's earned is largely irrelevant, that only forms the reason why they become trapped in the cycle, not the primary reason for starting out. No one goes in wanting to stay in; it is a means to an end, one that sadly doesn't come for many until they are simply too old to carry on. I refuse to believe that many even do that well out of it. Many rarely get taken because competition is rife. Yes, some are big earners, but for the most part, if you followed each girl back to her village independently I very much doubt you would see many flat screen TVs or microwaves as you suggest.And what of the foreigners who go with these women? You didn't address my points on that. Foreigners seem ready to run a social commentary on how despicable their families are, yet are an integral part of the problem
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      • MMany informed, intelligent and wise posts here. Very refreshing indeed considering many of the posters on some other highly popular forums hint; thailandvisaThai society is like a dysfunctional family. Money seems to be God and a corrupt education system that largely does not train the mind to think, but the system is democratic in that it does not limit this mis-education to any single socio-economic class of people. Google "our idiotic mind set" bangkokpost article for a deeper understanding.There is cheating and corruption at all levels of society and lots of hyprocisy and denial. The perceived bar girl scamming is just another flavor of that same culture. Throughout their society, things occur to make "quick money" that astonish many of us.I have knowledge from exposure to the entertainment scene and can also speak fairly decently as well as read and write Thai (not as well as a native of course) I also am not here because of my social life and the bar stuff is low importance. I think human trafficking is reprehensible.Although I have never lived with a bar girl (IMO even a very high % of middle/upper class girls are not interesting either) I've heard most if not all of the stories. I've been (apparently) befriended by successful bar girl types that did not seek money, just someone to talk to and party with. I've seen photos of very nice large houses in Issan and cars, all funded by western guy(s). One girl asked me why despite the house and cars, there is no happiness in her family. I explained the concepts of personal, intellectual, emotional development, and self esteem not based on money for nothing and checks for free. One girl even showed me photos of the homes and cars of 2 wannabe western husbands, asking me which one I thought she should marry. She never spoke about her feelings for them or attraction or happiness with them.Theres a multitude of western guy enthralled and fascinated with the bar girl culture. Frankly imo theres not much fascination at all anywhere. I do have some great Thai friends though, and yes, they think outside of the box; the exception.
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        • How did explaining the "concepts of personal, intellectual, emotional development, and self esteem not based on money for nothing and checks for free" go? If I'm staking a guess, she nodded along but it didn't stick.The whole blog entry, of course, is disingenuous. The author professed himself to be 'bored' by the subject yet not only wrote a large entry but has responded to comments with more copious debate.I don't see any evidence of the misogynistic or simplistic replies he was assuming he'd get, that 'bar girls are bad', etc. But it's also perfectly obvious that there is some cultural element at foot here, that it's simplistic to blame poverty. Thailand is far from being the poorest nation on Earth. And blaming the 'culture' is not the same as blaming the girl.
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  87. What you say contains a lot of truth but it seems to miss what to me is the most shameful thing. Maybe you haven't had enough experience with bar-girls but every one of them that I've got to know well has parents that are parasites caring more about 'face' than their daughters. And the daughters, culturally brainwashed, play along with this. Once in, they consider themselves dirty and lost beings. May as well continue being a factory for a non-caring family then...You talk about supporting 'ageing' parents but how many do you actually know? When hearing that a girls parents are 'too old to work', have you ever asked how old they actually are? Usually you'll find out that they're in their mid-forties! Have you then gone on to meet any of them, find how lazy and/or reckless they are with money and know of the ways they manipulate a girl's guilt? I have, it's shameful. And the whole culture bangs in the message to 'respect' parents, no matter what. To have the latest phone or a car you don't even need. This is why Thailand is more notorious for prostitution than poorer countries. All of your argument is geared towards poverty but why isn't there more prostitution in places that are as poor or poorer than Thailand (even Isaan)?
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    • Thanks for your comment because it's the only real one here. Most bar girls I know have someone close to them that has made them do it and continue to do it because of pressure from them. Aging parents total BS! How old can your parents be if your 20y/o? give me a break. They call at random hours asking for money telling lies of this and that, they want to buy a car and make her do more guys this is the real reality.Do all these girls have a choice? 95% of them do! They can refuse to do it this is Thailand not east Africa! Thai people do have a choice and can find work easily, might not be good money but they won't starve or go without a place to live.
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      • Chris, I agree about parental pressure for money, and I see this not just with prostitutes but with women and men in every day professions. But that isn't the only part of the story. Moreover, what is your idea of choice? Without an education and a couple of kids from a guy that will never pay a bean in child support leaves few options for soem women; cleaner perhaps, living in squalid accommodation hawking whatever gear you can get your hands on? Is that a reasonable life choice to have? 6000-8000 baht won't get you far. Remember, you need capital to set up a business, and how does a girl from a poor family get that capital? Dangerous loan sharks with extortionate rates or go on the game for a bit I guess. Yes, no one starves in Thailand, but like you and I, and every other person in a capitalist society, the carrot is dangling in front of the donkey and we aspire to be better off, to give our kids the things we never had, to make our parents proud of us, and in the case of these Thai women, to honour the family name and elevate the face of one's family. And when I say "aging parents" I mean parents getting older, who are of course are looking after their parents who also will be without a pension, state or private.So how far do you think this 8000 baht salary will go on 2 kids, the parents, the grandparents and taking care of one's self. Yes parents are taking advantage of their kids, egging them on to find a "rich farang", and the bar is the best route to that. I mean how can an uneducated girl with no money learn English and put herself in a position to meet a foreigner...sure as hell no middle class Thai guy is going to marry her. Don't become the typical farang who uses the "choice" excuse to justify his actions. These women are there because they are victims of a society that does nothing to empower them to do anything else, and their families who are driven by keeping up with the "jones'". Birth is a lottery in countries like Thailand. Class and name determine your future, and the cycle is very hard to break. This is why many girls believe this is their karma, and although they are demerited in Thai Buddhism for being a prostitute, they receive greater merit for supporting their parents no matter how it is done.Being a hooker is soul destroying, and not a choice a woman takes lightly. These women grew up with the same aspirations and goals as any other around the world; a girl doesn't grow up thinking I want to sleep with sociapathic elderly western men when I grow up. So why weren't any of these goals realised? For that you need to look at the social, educational, political, and class mechanics of the society. You have generations of women selling themselves. And what of them in the future? Mentally scarred, unable to have normal intimate relationships, drug abuse, alcohol abuse, it isn't all bright lights and high heels behind the scenes. You should visit the women's refuge I visited twice and hear the stories of some of the women, women who have been torn apart by the industry, the pimps, the drugs, the debts, the rape, the abuse, the unwanted pregnancies. Of course, this isn't the case for the average bar girl perhaps, and each woman has a different experience, but don't over simplify the situation and and be one of the ignorant who think they like doing it or are too lazy to do anything else.Let's say you are right, let's say it is all down to the parent's making their daughters do this, and arguably you are right because a parent can beg their daughter not to do it, and instead encourage the family to toil the fields forever for 80 baht a day and eat off the land. The fact remains that it isn't a natural human instinct for a parent is it? To literally sell one's daughter. And if it is so disgraceful, why are foreigners coming in and supporting this despicable trade by sleeping with these women for money? Shouldn't we be discouraging the practice? No, the truth is we love it. We love to think that those little Thai women love it and are only good for one thing. And that their families are brainless parasites without our superior human makeup. To think these women and their families might have feelings and are systematically manipulated into doing such things would be to ask us to show compassion, which just isn't part of our imperialistic nature.
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        • I know plenty of thai girls from poor families who have dirt floors. They worked full time in Chiang Mai and finished highschool by correspondence then got a government loan (easy to do) to go to uni while working part time. It all comes down to effort and just saying your poor is no excuse. I don't think foreigners are to blame, at least here in Chiang Mai the sex industry with Thai men is way higher. But in all I do like your article and agree with most, i havn't been with a bar girl for years because I understand them when they talk it sounds like one of those skanky b8()tches you see on Jerry Springer. That's the reality of what happens to Thai bar girls they just get dragged down. Put a good apple in with rotten apples and it goes rotten too.
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          • I meant to keep my replies on this sub-thread before but obviously clicked the wrong link.Yes, precisely, Chris. The arguments about poverty and culture fall down when you see most other girls from a similar background, similar circumstances, NOT going into prostitution. There's something different with the girls who go into it without even having the excuse of being a single parent. There's simply something in them that prefers money to feelings and integrity. Their parents or elder sisters are often complicit but, even if they pressurise, it's resistable. There is something in the girls that give in. One thing you didn't mention, Chris, is that the parents also get used to this money and simply leech more, finding more ways to spend it, just like the girls. They're all complicit. They all have choices.I wonder how many stories LivingInThai really knows. Taking the girls who work without having kids to support, they usually try other work before and simply change because they think the money's not enough, the work's 'too hard'. E.g. I know one or two who worked in MK. And they simply wanted more money, heard from 'friends' and 'family' where they could get it. The work's so 'hard' in MK for them. Yet I see waitresses of the same age in my local MK who have been there for years. Why is the money enough for them, the work not so 'hard'?
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  88. Quote:"these girls are the daughters and sisters of other human beings, and at one time children with dreams and aspirations."Now there is a truth, a real truth that nobody can ever deny. No matter what you read, or see, or even do, they will always be human beings and nothing less than that.I think your article on this Chris is bang-on, very insightful and should be read by more people. Not many have made the connection between non-existent social services and the flourishing of this industry...
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  89. Prostitution is a stable job, and so they continue doing it. But unlike the "normal" job-hunters, they don't have much choice as to where they are to submit their resumes. Unlike what the majority of my countrymen think of them, I see them as real strong women, far stronger than I am. And I agree they are victims of a stinky system. Ironically, many westerners look down to these acts when a lot of their women open their legs just for pleasure. These girls are lured to sex because they have to, not because they practically want to.
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    • Well put Cris. I agree, these girls indeed have to be very strong to endure that life, yet unfortunately some do break. And unfortunately us Westerners have a history of dominating, abusing and stealing from those we perceive to be lesser beings than ourselves.
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  90. That is the whole truth of it. Poverty, lack of social justice, a social structure that not only does not care about the poor but encourages prostitution because it is benefitting from it. After all, Prostitution is Illegal in Thailand and if the powers that be wanted it stopped they would have it stopped. Land of Smiles? I think not.
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    • I couldn't agree more Bernard. The more I research into this area, the more it appears as a social genocide; deliberately underfunding education, failing to provide welfare support for single parents, or holding fathers responsible for financial contribution; zero investment in back to work schemes for women to boost their earning potential past that of a cleaner, and a minimum wage that makes it impossible for those with an average job to support their children and aging parents. The ugly truth is that these women are worth more to the state as prostitutes than as human beings worth investing in to provide better lives with dignity and self-respect. There is a demand, and the pathway is cleverly engineered for the supply to be delivered. At the end of the day, few prostitutes strike it rich, but they do okay while their looks last. But what of the person, the soul, the individual? Where is the quest to provide the same choices for a girl born in a rural farming community as a girl born the daughter of a politician or other more privileged member of society? Where are the initiatives to provide employment that would match the average wage of a working girl. If the money trail were uncovered in this industry the face of the true abuser would be seen.
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  91. Well said.I was introduced to the Philippine version of aforementioned world as a 20-something engineer working in Subic Bay/Olongapo (86-87), a town at the time seemingly driven solely by the engine of bar entertainment. I was only too happy to participate in my newly found role as handsome rich foreigner. After the glitz wore off, the reality of what you described was painfully obvious. While the participants differed - they tended to be young wide-eyed guys from typically small towns involuntarily dropped into the scene, the the stories of the girls as told in the aftermath relayed the same tragic economic realities and complicated social pressures that you so well described.
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    • Hi John, I think your sentence sums it up; "After the glitz wore off, the reality of what you described was painfully obvious". It has become so obvious to me that, as much as i try to "lighten up" about it, and put the moral high ground to one side and show friends the "sights" when they come to visit, I just don't find the scene appealing in any way. I guess we are all guilty of seeing what we want to see in certain situations at times, but once the reality of something consumes the mind completely, things become increasingly hard to ignore.
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  95. Very good article indeed It is the corruption in this country, and we know from who, which makes it impossible for these girls to have access to a good and proper education, let s hope for a revolution of a sort....
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    • I have no doubt there are Albert, yet relying on the leadership of academics rather than the wise and experienced is what got the world into this mess in the first place. Do you have any examples of such studies based in Thailand?
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      • Good post. I agree with most of what you have said here, and applaud you for your attitude, and for writing about it. Following on from what Albert alluded to, I have an interesting anecdote to tell you, that if nothing else demonstrates that this is a complex scene with complex issues, and many different facets.I have a friend who was a news anchor here for a while (I won't tell you her name or the network) and now works as a correspondent. About a year back, she went 'undercover' on the streets with the prostitutes, to get an idea of what goes through their heads. Unfortunately I don't think they filmed the whole thing, it was just 'research' for a piece.She talked to a lot of prostitutes and asked them what they thought of their jobs. She never came across a single hint of shame. The women were almost proud of what they did, given that they earned a lot of money doing it. Something you don't doubt when you visit an expensive club like Bed Supperclub and see the number of women there who obviously work as bar-girls or prostitutes, looking to pick up.My friend asked the prostitutes a hypothetical question: "If I paid for you to go to university, would you quit the sex trade and do it?" From what she tells me, overwhelmingly the answer was no. The women could see that they earn more a month than your average middle-class university grad does, doing what they consider to be an easy job.Of course, I don't think these anecdotes tell the whole story either. They sound like words of bravado told to someone who was an obvious outsider within their ranks. Not mentioned is rape, abuse, drugs and all the other dangers that a woman of the night faces in Bangkok. It does prompt me to wonder how much truth there is to their words.Either way, the larger issue is not going to go away any time soon. And as much as we'd like to, we can't blame the droves of Sexpats for the momentum behind the industry. Foreign sex-trade has only been popularised in Thailand since the Vietnam War, but the sex trade has been around in Thailand long before that. The local men still make up the larger percentage of patrons to the sex trade across Thailand, albeit away from the glitzy farang-traps like Patpong and Soi Cowboy.Really, I think the problem only goes away when these women have options. Your point about the true nature of choice is well made. When the country has developed such that the average woman growing up in rural Thailand can progress from a lower class life, through the education system to gainful employment, then the lure of the sex industry will be avoidable.Do you still work with the woman's shelter? Sounds like very rewarding work.
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        • @Adrian.You raise a good point with the example of your friend's work, although I feel some of the attitude might be "reverse face keeping", as in "we are not ashamed, we are doing well for ourselves." I was thinking about the whole "face" thing the other day when i was on the BTS around 6pm and saw a couple of working girls get off at Nana - I know one shouldn't presume but the boobs hanging out and lycra-type mini outfit nearly revealing bottom meant the carriage had made the opinion for me. I do see this regularly though, and it got me to thinking that for some women they may, in the initial stages certainly, feel like they have made good in some way. This might sound ridiculous, but working with foreigners in the tourist industry, breaking away from the mould of village life poverty, not toiling a field, being able to afford new clothes and an iphone, and support your parents and child back home, is, I presume for some, relative success. I am not saying that it makes the situation justifiable, but it's an observation, albeit speculative at best.I think this might be where many foreigners come up with the notion that these girls "love it" and "love the money" etc. It's all too easy to say "this is a better life for her, i am doing her a favour". of course i think that makes for a temporary conscience massage. It is the long term ramifications that concern me. For example, the conditioning and reengineering of one's soul, morals, personality etc. The knock on effect to dependents when they realise what mum used to be or is in the big city. The inability to have a normal relationship post the industry. Mental health issues. Risk of drug and alcohol abuse to numb the soul destroying consensus view by society and clients that you are nothing but an object of sex, and as such should be treated like one indefinitely. Whatever the facets of this industry, I don't believe any girl grows up aspiring to work on Cowboy or Nana etc, and from that very standpoint I think we should all open our minds further on this subject, rather than using the "it's an age old profession" approach - which i don't believe is applicable in the case of the majority of these girls/women.I spoke with someone involved with the shelter recently and i hope to go back and do some more self-defence with the women. It is rewarding and a stark reminder that while there might be some women hard headed enough to see the life through, make a good living and come out the other side relatively unscathed, many don't make it that far. No bar girl is likely to say she has been a victim of sexual abuse since 13 years old and is dying inside, no. Instead you will see her on Nana offering you her last scraps of dignity for $35....either that or I might see her at the women's shelter, pregnant, broke, unwanted, unloved, rejected by society and loved ones and down trodden. Of course not all women there are victims of prostitution, many of domestic violence, too.I guess if money didn't exist or wealth was fairly distributed, prostitution on such a scale wouldn't exist. Or at least then you would truly know that the women were there by choice.Have you watched this yet? Would love to know your thoughts: https://thethailandlife.com/bangkok-girl-documentary-jordan-clark
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          • Yeah. As I said, it may be bravado or "reverse face keeping" as you call it. ;-)And don't get me wrong, I am not saying that just because the sex industry here has been around for centuries it's a good thing. I merely think it's worth people remembering that foreign sex tourists are not who started the problem, and are not solely responsible for perpetuating it. Basically, there is a reason it was so easy for Bangkok to become a hot-spot for sex tourism, and it goes much deeper than foreign demand, the reasons I believe are economic as well as cultural, involving gender identities and the fact that the existence and patronage of brothels and full-service massage parlours is such a widely accepted norm.I think therefore it's going to take time and a whole lot of economic and social progress before there is meaningful change. And even then, now that there is such big money in the industry, will it ever change?The Sexpats are just like sad moths to a flame. I don't blame them, but I don't excuse them or respect them either.Yeah, I watched Bangkok Girl last night after finding your blog from the Tourism piece. It broke my heart.Of course you can see from the beginning Pla is just like any other bar girl, despite the innocent act. But it was great that he managed to earn her trust and take a peek into the dark past of a bar girl and the difficulties of her life. It's hard to know what else to say - and perhaps you felt the same way from your fairly short post - it's just really really sad.
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      • Did it ever occur to you that sex does not have to be perceived as dirty or sleazy, even if there is no money involved. Forthermore, for some people the idea of monetizing sex isn't shameful or dehumanizing. There is a hardware store to buy tools, a car dealership to buy a vehicle, restaurants to buy food, and brothels when consenting adults want to have sex. And even the USA has brothels (Reno, Nevada I think) as well as other adult entertainment venues. But they don't quite get the same type of victimization from the feminist (and feminized men), mainly do to the much larger income that a Western whore gets "selling their soul".On average, a Thai woman is more slutty than a Western woman with 'morals' simply because their views about sex and life are different. There is no stigma attached to actually going with a man and having a child together. There is no fear that the child will starve. Boy mewts girl and walks forward in a relationship based on instincts, not a religious or romantic ideal. There was an interesting discussion on Thai Visa recently about 'normal' Thai woman with regular jobs that still appeared 'desperate' to want to go with a man, but not for monetary gain. One possible explanation is that there is a natural leniency to want to go with the opposite sex (companionship). No tricks or hidden agendas of trying to 'trap' or 'trick' a man into giving her anything (although ironically, a man often VOLUNTEERS to give a woman part of his money).What I find interesting is how we can monetize posters, paintings, real estate and other "art" into the billions of dollars, but sex? Oh no who would anyone want to monetize something that is in such high demand in the human experience (business 101). Sex has always sold, whether it is virtual (porn, webcam, strip club) or physical (go-go, brothel, freelance, marriage, etc).There is no "battle of the sexes" or too much gender confusion here in Thailand or most of SE Asia that I've visited. Girls want to be girls and guys want to be guys. The relationship roles are on average WAY more traditional regardless of income level, and it is not uncommon to actually get experience from a prostitute (whatever form you want to call it) as a natural progression to manhood. The experience doesn't just fall out of the sky, neither does it have to be sleazy just because some people don't agree with a particular way of delivery. There is a time and a place for everything; and so if Thailand and other places want to be known for its open/honest sex culture, so what? Do we have to constantly judge or victimize people that we don't understand may handle the topic of sex differently?- here is a summary article on a (link now broken) Vietnamese woman with a western education who did field study with women in the sex industry. Victim spoiler: They do it by choice. The feminist and religious groups really don't like the fact that their victim story doesn't always apply (me personally, it never applies, as only victims victimize themselves or allow themselves to be victims) The only 'victims' in thailand, in where the prostitution is so transparent and organized in my opinion is those who never actually try to court some of these women (bargirl, freelancer, massage clerk, or whoever you judge as being prostitute). It is easy for anyone (local or foreigner) who wants an honest assessment of a sex worker to see for yourself the type of women they are and the type of relationships they offer. It is probably one of the most honest, intimate relationships you'll ever encounter, even with all the 'little Thai lies'. I've seen workers regularly turn down potential clients they didn't want to go with; I didn't see any forced activities. Never went down any dark alleys or any secret paths; everything sex related is very obvious, open, and well lit. And there were a lot of different levels of sex work technically speaking, well beyond the stereotypical bar scene.Western people are usually conditioned with a certain arrogance that their way of looking at the world is somehow superior, and therefore alternate points of view are either incorrect or morally/emotionally wrong. A good example of this (and the fact that there are real cultural differences in how Thais view life/death) is how the 2011 Bangkok floods were handled. There was an instance where the US military offered Naval assistance to Thai gov't with aid, but the Thai gov't declined it. The response from the typical westerner was "I can't believe the Thai gov't/people are so stupid." Did the flooding eventually stop? Yes. Were their homes and business affected by the damage? Yes. Did Thailand recover? Yes. Did Thailand move on with their lives without a huge emotional drama? YES.One more thing I wanted to address. The point the OP made on the sex workers requiring a "break-in" period before being able to do their job. Most jobs require some sort of training or apprenticeship from an experience person in that job to give them an idea of what the expectations of the job are and how to deal with them. The military does this, Fedex does this, McDonalds does this, so I suppose soul-selling....err go-go dancing wouldn't be any different.Nobody (that I saw) was starving in Issan, in fact I was surprised how well my gf's mother ate despite the house not having hot water, extension cords for electrical appliances, or other things that I might consider a 'necessity'. No government, not even the USA g9v't with the ton of 'free' social aid is ultimately responsible for your WANTS. But that would get at one of the cores of anybody entertaining the victim role in the first place: WANTING.I totally respect the OPs decision not to discuss or glorify the Thai bar scene. There are other forums more appropriate for this type of discussion.
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  98. Very good aritcle. You hit it right on the head. These girls were borned in the wrong place and have to pay for it. The class system in Thailand is stinck. Good education is the only hope but the Government is unwilling to pay for it. You have a good heart.
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