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Do You Really Want To Buy An Apartment In Thailand?

It seems like every street in Bangkok has an apartment block being built these days. New apartment blocks selling “happiness”, “lifestyle” and “freedom” are advertised on every street corner and inside every train station.

As I sigh at the concept of property ownership and marvel at the workers putting the new block opposite mine together, seemingly by hand, I wonder, is it really worth buying an apartment in Bangkok, or anywhere else in Thailand for that matter?

buying property in thailand

Though the idea of owning property and being tied to one place has never really appealed to me, at one time or another, most of us are forced down that route, either for want of stability or to have something to leave our kids.

On the face of it,  buying an apartment in Thailand seems like a fantastic deal. For £40,000 you can get a decent one bedroom place in Bangkok.

If you want somewhere nearer the centre of town, you  are looking at about £80,000-100,000 for a two bedroom apartment. Go rural, however, or even to the city of Chiang Mai, and you can pick up a decent one bedroom place for £20-30,000.

Getting on the property ladder at these prices is a dream come true, right? Personally, I think not. Take a deeper look at the condo market in Thailand and you'll see the false economy.

A Closer Look At What You Get for Your Money

For a start, building standards in Thailand are poor, period. I remember a builder friend of mine nearly having a heart attack when he say how the builders were constructing an apartment block opposite his hotel. But the workers aren't to blame. Low paid, and often low-skilled, they are expected to build entire apartment blocks, pretty much by hand.

Indeed the lack of power tools used is a huge concern. And it’s not like the tools aren;t available to rent; it's just that the developers want to save money at all costs.

On this very subject, just the other day a guy was sent to re-lay two tiles in my room. He was given a screwdriver and an ageing portion of cement in a plastic bag to do the  job. Needless to say the tiles are already wobbling and will no doubt be cracked by next month.

buying an apartment in thailand

Cost cutting property developers deliver great looking apartments, which will seem cheap to a foreigner. And they are cheap. In fact, they are so cheap in build quality, that guaranteed, within a couple of years, you'll need to start carrying out maintenance on your apartment.

The freehold you get might seem attractive, but truth be told, it might as well be on a short lease if the entire building is going to look like crap within 10 years.

No Resale Market

This leads me to the second reason I wouldn’t buy an apartment in Thailand. There is little, if any, resale market, well at least presently there isn’t.

Most people in the Western world buy a property because it goes up in value, yet I know a guy here who bought a condo two years ago and now cant sell it for toffee. He thought the escalating market would mean being able to flip it for a small fortune within a couple of years.  No.

Why would a buyer buy second hand, when for only a few grand more they can buy brand new? There are so many developments to choose from, many offering super discounts for early takers, that the resale market is practically dead, except in those upscale areas that remain evergreen, so to speak.

Talking to a local estate agent, I am told,

“Unless you are selling a condo in a very special location, you will struggle on the resale market”.

I’m out already. Special location means paying near on what I could get a place for back home, and at least then I could safely assume it wouldn’t depreciate (I hope).

Buying An Apartment to Live in Thailand Long-Term

Well, if you do the math, and you know that your rent over 10 years will equal the price of buying a condo, then go for it. But think, will you want to stay in the same place for 10 years? And will you not end up paying out for maintenance and service charges on top?

When rent is so ridiculously cheap (when you shop around), and the owner of the apartment block takes full responsibility for maintenance, it seems silly to buy an apartment in Thailand, especially when the market is flooded and prices don’t go up or even hold their value.

buying an apartment in thailand

What About Buy-To-let In Thailand?

It's possible, but again, ask yourself…

  1. Do you want to wait 10-15 years for your money back?
  2. Will you be able to rent the property month-in-month-out?
  3. Will you be able to sell it for more than you paid for it after 10-15 years?
  4. Will you be left with a depreciating, dilapidated hassle of a building after 10 years?

There Is A Way To Profit In The Thai Property Market…

It isn’t all doom and gloom. There is a way to turn a profit in the Thai apartment market, and that is to buy early. Some developers are desperate to secure sales in the early stages to help pay off creditors and secure further funding for the next stage of building, it also boosts popularity around the project.

This means you can get a much cheaper deal if you buy early on and, if the project is in a desirable area, then you may be able to sell the brand new apartment to someone desperate to get in on the action when all the other units have sold out.

Problem is, to get in this game you need capital and to know the right people, as I speak about in this post. You will need to buy in hotspot areas, too, and those condo’s don’t come cheaply.

You need to know the market well, because the last thing you want is to be stuck with an apartment two years down the line in an area that isn't very popular with the rental market.

There is also another huge risk to buying before completion. There have been numerous cases where the project has fallen though, the creditors have refused to lend money for a third stage of building, or quite simply an unscrupulous businessman has done a runner with the money. Okay, these occurrences are fairly rare, but be careful who you do business with.

In Bangkok, for a little under £300 per month, you can rent a  1-bedroom condo with a balcony just a few metro stops from the centre of town. And, when you get bored of that apartment, you can just move to a newly built one. On the islands you can find some epic deals on houses, too.

In my mind it's better to keep your cash in the bank, your life hassle free and your ability to around as and when you want.

If you think I am way off the mark, or that I have missed some important points here, then please contribute with your comments below. I am certainly no property expert, and would love to hear from those of you that have property experience in Thailand.

Hey, since writing this post I've written a far more in-depth post on this subject matter: Read it here.

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  3. my 2 cents--rent before you buy--so far I don't like Thailand but I have no choice because I am single. Buy what you can afford to lose and I lost half a mil and still alive but I remembered--don't put all your eggs in one basket and I follow and now sitting pretty. Yes, I traveled all over the world and best country is USA.
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    • It's certainly good advice. I recommend everyone rent for a long time before they buy. You really need to fall in love with a particular area and know that you want to spend the next 20 or so years of your life there before by, unless of course you are buying with a view to rent out. How come you are living in Thailand if you don't like it? There are plenty of countries you can visit as a single man. The world is your oyster.
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    • Should be possible but there are some additional hoops to jump through and considerations particularly if you're getting up in years (Bangkok Bank - for one - limits the the term of the loan to (65 years minus Your Age)). Again, at Bangkok Bank there is no mention of Thai citizenship as a requirement just that you can provide a government issued ID. I would bet that there would also be some requirement to maintain additional collateral beyond the property as a disincentive to skip out on the loan the next time property values crash. Best bet is to ask at your bank and see what their requirements are.
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  5. What do you guys think about the market in Pattaya? I remember rooms in old condos like Nirun sold for 15k$-20k$, and the place is always almost fully occupied because of its central location. The building and rooms are complete crap (has a pool though) but those who don't care still rent all of these rooms all the time, just to be in center of Pattaya near beach road and walking street :) . It seems like buying cheap rooms like these and renting them (in locations that are always active) is a good choice if you just want to secure a passive income, with an option to rent for your own stay somewhere else. Like, if you get 4 rooms for 60k$, rent them each for 150-200$ (which is what they cost usually), you have about 600-800$ a month, to use as a rent of a normal place that you like (house with garden, bungalow on islands, etc'). What do you think?
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  6. leave your assets in your county of origin and rent in Thailand, it's one of the few places in the World where property actually depreciates and is fraught with danger and fraud and I'm talking from personal experience, Love the culture and the food but do your research, Rent in an area you can afford & enjoy the lifestyle.
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  7. Buying in Thailand is a mine field and there are to many pitfalls and you have little or no legal comebacks, adding to which finding a straight lawyer in Thailand is very hard. I have lived in Thailand 10 years and I rent. Renting is cheap and you are not tied down to one place. Buying is dangerous as most of the purchased properties are lease hold using the 49% 51% rule. This means that the Thai 51% ownership (usually female) has a 2% controlling share. You can buy a condo in your own name but you cannot gift it if you pass away and you will certainl6 not be able to resell it. In short rent.it is worry free with little or no legal involvement and you are free to move at anytime.
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    • Would it not be the case that the 51% leasehold Thai ownership is over the building as a whole and not the individual units? are really quite interested in what happens when a lease runs out on an apartment block. With the owners at the time, collectively, not have the power to get together and extend at lease?
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  9. Great article and still relevant even now, although I would have to say that this situation is happening across Asia and not just Thailand. This is thanks to the Great Asset Bubble courtesy of the US Federal Reserve's money printing machine. Unfortunately, prices will only continue to rise because that's the way the global financial system works these days... fundamentals be damned!One reason why you might want to own a condo in Thailand is if you need to leverage. Local Banks are eager to lend, but they need some sort of collateral from you - preferably property type asset. The great thing about condos is that their 'supposed' price goes up every year - 5-10% at a time - because new condos are being built at a higher price point which prompts everybody to 'up-rate' their own condo valuation by a similar amount. So if you're in need to raise a big chunk of capital in a hurry, then mortgaging your condo(s) will ensure that your loan officer to get approval from his superior - regardless of the fact that the second hand condo market is highly illiquid and if the Banks do end up confiscating the asset then they would be stuck with it for a long time, and probably won't be able to sell it for half of what they 'thought' it was worth...Which leads us nicely to the next reason why you would want to buy a condo in Thailand - money laundering. If you need to launder $100m of your ill gotten gains quickly, what's better than buying 100 units (or one penthouse) in a hyper luxury condo project from, say, Sansiri in cash?OF course, if you actually want a place to live and don't want to spend three hours a day stuck in traffic commuting from the suburbs - then that might be another reason to buy ... but at the rate which prices per sqm are going up most people are only going to be able to afford a shoebox in the near future. So ultimately, I imagine that the majority of people will end up renting in the future.
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    • Houses are a bit different as generally foreigners can't own houses unless they are part of a development that is set-up in such a way that foreigners can purchase within that development. My feeling, however, is that the housing market is not much different. It's the land that's worth money, not the house itself. Most of these developments are leasehold, as I understand it.
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  12. Thanks for this post and the other one you have a link to. I keep them around for those times when I seriously consider buying the condo I rent.I really like the condo I rent. It is in a good location in Chiang Mai. The place is 38 sqm. Being single and retired, this size works just fine for me. I've lived here for 6-1/2 years and know that the building is sound and the management is better than average. They work at keeping the building in good repair. The owner has offered to sell it to me for 1.2 MB if I am interested.Considering what I would save in rent by buying, less the common area fees and whatever maintenance I would have to do, it would probably take 11+ years to break even.And then, of course, there is the resale issue. There is no guarantee that I will stay in Thailand that long. I love traveling and I have been keeping my eye on Prague. :)So, as much as I like the condo and where I am located, I think I will stick to your advice and continue renting.Thanks for providing the continuing reality check.
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    • Hi David, this is the thing: If you see yourself somewhere for the next 20 years then it could be a good deal, but then realistically what would it be worth after 20 years. I assuming your rent is pretty low too...so why not just rent and see if Prague continues to tickle your fancy. All the best!
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  13. Only a fool would buy real estate in Thailand. Although this guy did lay out MANY of the pitfalls, I find it hilarious that he actually recommended buying off plan, which is extremely risky. You could lose everything and as a foreigner you have virtually no legal recourse. Don't ever buy in Thailand. Don't be a fool. I live in Thailand and I am a VERY accomplished professional investor having worked on Wall Street and venture capital. I'm retired now and I rent for all of the reasons in the article plus many not stated.
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      • When I bought in 2015, I was thinking of using the Bangkok apartment as a weekend place (I live in Singapore). Now that I have had two years to think about it (and read your blog), I'm not ready to commute. So I will try a few more times to get some capital gains out of buying "off plan" in the hope that I can go more up-market.The condo I bought was 13.55m THB. There are a lot of much nicer designs out now that look like they will hold their value better than the one I chose (which is nice!) I chose a developer that is listed on the Thai stock exchange and as built over 60 projects. I would suggest anyone interested go only with known, experienced developers listed and with tons of completed projects. Sansiri, Raimon Land, Grande Asset, etc.
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  15. What about buying for investment, for example, someone wants to distribute his investment portfolios into various sectors, do you think buying an apartment in Bangkok can offset inflation at least in future?
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    • Offset inflation where? In Thailand or your home country. I'm not an investment advisor, but personally I'd consider bonds and peer to peer lending investments offering 4-6% over property in Thailand. But hey, what do I know :)
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    • for mr feng...investment appear not bad idea ..but with rules it was two points .let it not good . 1-of course u need to be far .mean u rent it for others .and u will be in another country .but u must make recedincy and renewal it wd 25000 b yearly . 2-u need to go police every 90 days to see u . it mean u must go thai 4 times per year .check how much 4 journy cost u and deduct the sum from your profit . best regards
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  16. I agree 100%. Just rent rent rent. You pay 4-5% ROI looking at the market value of most condos and that is not so bad? Biggest problem with Thailand, i think, is that all buildings have too low maintenancecharge so the buildings will "go bad" too soon and there is not much you can do about it.I bought a 55 sqm 2009 in Jomtien. 150 meters to sea, no blocking buildings and good layout. House was ready for transfer 2011. I put it out on the market in 2014 and it took 3 years to sell. After 2,5 years i decided to make a renovation with new kitchen, new bathroom, repaint and new furniture. I could no raise the price to cover the renovation but at least i got a bid. All in all i think i dropped 15-20% of investment. House and condo was ok but no luxury.There is no value in buying condos in any part of Thailand imo. But i think the Pattaya-area is worst. I read an article about the the builders in the area and they are sitting on 62.000 unsold units. Mostly small one beds. How can the prices start going up in the coming years .... i highy doubt that.
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  17. Buying an apartment in Pattaya seems like a fantastic deal. For £30,000 you can get a decent one bedroom condo. There are many condos for sale now and the prices are low so good to buy now. Rental returns are very decent!If you want somewhere nearer the centre of town, you are looking at about £80,000-100,000 for a larger one bedroom apartment. Go rural, however, or even to the city of Chiang Mai, and you can pick up a decent one bedroom place for £20-30,000.
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  18. Too right. We went through absolute hell in Omni Tower Soi 4. We were Bly able to sell what we brought it through 15 years earlier. Still we live there for all that we me rent free, and now brought a brand new house in a compound in Central Chiang Mai for relative peanuts...If it has to be Bangkok, my advice as given above, rent only
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  19. This opinion piece is spot on in my opinion. I found it by Googling "Why is rent in Thailand so cheap?" because I am new here and am trying to understand the strange (to me) low cost of renting a new condo. Mind you I come from Australia, where rental values are very high. But I think I learned two things from this piece; one, that build quality is low, leading to capital depreciation rather than capital appreciation. Two, that supply may be outstripping demand due to rapid expansion in condo development.
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  20. Do yourself a favor. Do NOT buy a property in Thailand. Too many unknowns in this third world country and too many restrictive rules due to the current regime. Plus, the banking sector in Thailand is a joke compared to Western countries.
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  22. Totally agree with your synopsis mate, why would you "buy into" a country with political uncertainty,third world status,tourist dependent and have no rights when I can rent a 1-2 bedroom house for 10.000THB a month on an island, with no worries of future events both in-country and the world, all I have to do is pack a bag and hop back to Oz. Oh and OVERSUPPLY is rampant where I am and their is no slowing down just imagine in another 10 years. Keep my cash in the bank I think. By the way I have made LOS my home for 20 years and always rented, always will.
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    • We live in Hua Hin, and there is a large rental market there, particularly from Europeans who have retired, and wish to spend 3-6 months in a warm tropical climate.I know a few friends who have bought a condo and are getting decent rent returns, through AIR bnb or other holiday booking engines.Buying property is always about location, no matter if you buy in Sydney, Singapore or Shanghai.
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  25. I think that to invest in Thailand to buy property is good idea, the key is the location and build quality. The problem with renting is that you live with what's provided in the Condo, u are reluctant to spend money on a rented property whereas if u buy u do it the standard that you like. I have brought house when it was new and furnished it to high standard and then sold it for good profit, also l buy cheap condo new with a view to renting it but ended living in it myself after l sell house and now l have sold again for a profit. I am renting in Bkk with a view to buy in 12 months and then l will spend money to make it look good after l buy but the key in Bkk is to buy near BTS station then travel so easy and good.
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    • Hmmm David, to me your writing does sound like someone who practices English as a second language. Which makes me wonder about the sincerity of your 'view'. It does appear to be a marketing positioning statement.
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  26. Hi! Thank you for this very informative blog post of yours. I learned something about this and would love to read some article from you again, next time. Well, if you do the math, and you know that you rent for more than 10 years or plans to stay in Thailand for a long time, it is better for you to just buy a condo or a real estate. For me, it is better to buy a real estate early so there's not much amortizations in it and if you don't want to live in Thailand already, then sell the condo for higher price if you want to.
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  27. Having bought and sold condos in pattaya and bangkok I agree completely . There are profits to be made in pattaya selling renovated condos to falangs , I sold 8 in 3 years in pattaya and then like you say you can make money fliping condos in good locations around BKK . Only other problem is the exchange rates which you are tied to as you transfer in to buy . If during your renovation or flip sale the exchange goes against you , you will see your profit dispear when you transfer your cash back out to transfer back in to buy again . As a farang you cannot buy a condo with money already in the country . You have to have a document from a bank to show funds transferred into the country to make your purchase at the land office . I was lucky for 4 years until the pound and euro crashed against the bt . After that I went from selling 3-4 condos per year to taking a full year to get rid of the last one .
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  28. Sorry but this is the problem the world over, people wanting a quick buck and they think property is the way to go.. 10 years is nothing for a investment, and you know what they say, "you make your money when there is blood on the streets". I am a expat from the UK that has property within the Philippines and the market prices here are astronomical when you look at the native salary. London UK where I also have property is massively expensive, think £250-400k for a 1-2 bed flat in East London without private parking PLUS rates.. And you are saying a cheeky 500kbaht Chiang Mai condo property is risky, give me a break.. We are onto 100 year mortgages in a lot of "desirable" places within Europe.. As with anything do your home work and survey the property, have a plan B which for me is well at least I have another holiday location that I can use as a base.. Believe me property is still a decent bet for a LONGTERM investment and by that it could be 10+years. If like many people that property will be a second home or similar is that a bad thing??. The population in every country minus Japan is going up and people will always need places to live. The horror stories are from people jumping in head first with little or no homework and taking stupid loans to pay for a project that may not work out. If you can afford it then go for it, if not then look elsewhere for a investment.. I am glad the market is saturated at the moment it means a quick cash deal for the right property should not be to hard to obtain.. Regards
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  29. I bought a Room in the big luxury called The River Condominium in Bangkok near by the Choaphraya River. This was a really good investment after 10 years. But now I would not by property in Bangkok, the price-level is too high now, and nobody know what will happen with the political situation, right?
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    • LOL ...price level to high?....go buy in australia or england....then tell me...no foreigner can own land in thailand....only spend in thailand if you can afford to loose it....the political turmoil and instability....is heart attack stuff...i know of an agent (farang)..who ran a successful real estate company...the opposition complained(thai)...and after 3 years they didnt renew his business visa...SHUT HIM DOWN...you take these usurfucts to save your ass ..and in the end other external factors ruin your life....you cant win here..you are at the mercy..of the powers to be...you will pay...you will be shafted...and you will run(live and learn).....rent and live life to the fullest!
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  30. This s most interesting. I bought a 2 bed condo ff plan in 2006 at Chong Nonsi, for THB10m. I sold it n completion for THB13m, very satisfied in 2009. Now, the same room would cost me THB23m.So, this post is a bit all doom and gloom and I for one, based on my experience, find it difficult to accept what is being suggested here. If you are in this to make a quick buck, then maybe buyer beware. But if you want to live in quality, maybe make some capital then joy wisely, centrally and it ought to be OK.I do admit that there might be over supply now, but even so it is hard to argue with what I know about the condo I sold 7 years ago... It is all fascinating.
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    • You claim you made 10% profit over 3 years that is 3% return per year. You could have done this with bonds 7 years ago. Nothing great really. Even if now it twice as expensive, you just can't sell on second hand market.
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      • The outlay is low, you make low monthly repayments until buildings complete such as maybe a 50000 baht deposit maybe 8000 per month plus normally a once per year payment maybe around 40000 baht. Gary is very lucky he sold it but the return is better than what you wrote. I'm from Oz have 1 condo already bought 1.45mil baht 3 years ago and still rented 9000 baht per month. Finding a tenant can take up to a month and the agent that looks after it takes 1 month rent.
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  31. Dear Sir or Ma'am I recently visited Thailand and fell in love with this country, its culture, its atmosphere and its people. Its my great wish now to live there. I am willing to do some investment in Thailand to buy some land or villa etc. But i want to know that in this case, what facilities will be offered regarding immigration or migration of my family from my home-country? Still i will be considered as a foreigner or i will get some rights or benefits as Thai nationals have there?
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  32. I know the Thai house bubble has exploded and villas /condos that were 3 million Thai Bhat look like they are 5 million ThaI bhat. However if Thai real estate does not lower their prices they are headed for a big cliff. The wealthy that have come to buy property Russia, UK other European countries and US are a minority compared to the amount of expats who live there. There's not a lot of jobs for expats to afford such prices. And for real estate to compare Bangkok to NYC is wrong because NYC pays top dollar and people from all around the world work there . So it breaks even a little better. Also the condos people buy in NYC are twice as big. A westerner is not looking to pay a Western price outside of its country. Perhaps slightly less but not the same or higher with less space. That is not an investment!Economically if the Housing Bubble does not slow down the inflation in Thailand from this bubble will pop and the real estate industry will suffer like USA due to greed, 2008 is a big lesson over here. And Thailand should not exclusively depend on tourism and real estate it will exhaust eventually.Thailand has a lot of land but I see a lot of homes unfinished. This takes away the value of villages and who wants to pay to see that. That is exactly what America had in 2008 and these homes have been abandoned. Many condos are selling a studio for $80,000 = 3 million Thai bhat. Or even a 1 bedroom with a divider. WHAT? New Yorkers are running to my state to buy condos for that price for at least 1500 square feet or more (139 sq. m). If foreign real estate companies don't change the dynamics when Thailand feels the strain of their economy they will blame farang. Only condos rented, sales slow down and many so called townhouses not completely finished. Many of their clients will go to Vietnam to invest because it looks more attractive. Just because a person comes from the west doesn't mean they want to be drained and haggled.American soooo want to buy but the price I am looking at and for what looks like a box.Let me know your thoughts.
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    • The thai banks are fueling the bangkok condo market . Giving 110% mortgages if you have a 30k per month salary . You can only get a loan on a new condo with the big 10 developers . It is a bubble waiting to happen. For the readers who says my condo has increased in value this is not the truth , because you can't sell your condo . Your condo is only worth how much someone will give you for it. Buildings have 30% occupancy you can't rent it because there are too many condos available and you can't sell it . There are many condos still being built . It's just a matter of time when this will pop.
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    • I'm curious, if the resale market is so dead n doomed, then I'm really keen to purchase one! To me it sounds like a great opportunity to Low ball for resale units since the owners are desperate to sell. its just how Low can u go? On the other hand, if I can't get it Low enough to make me grin, then its not all that dead n doomed for the resale market isn't it.**Btw I dun own anything in Bangkok atm....
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      • I can only speak from my own experience . Late in 2011 & early in 2012 I purchased( I admit now stupidly) 3 off the plan condos in Centara avenue Pattaya . I did so because I had another Australian friend there who had an accountant partner who worked in this brand new development & were doing the same ,perhaps ? at least that's what I was told .Anyway supposedly it was just launching so they were about to go up 5% then another 5 % in 3 months . The sales girls were going to flip them for me for a mere 50 000 baht so all I need to do was bring a deposit . Sounded great I only needed to bring a deposit & within 6 months would be flipped for a 10 % profit . Not long after I paid the deposit I was informed there was trouble & the sales girls were no longer allowed to flip them but do not worry we can sell them within 6 months only you need to pay an agent 5 % commission. Needless to say I sold 1 for a loss 15 months ago just so I didn't need to send more money hoping I would sell at least 1 for a profit on completion .Completion was due end of 2015 so for years I have been sending money I consider dead as its producing no income .February this year I was emailed your condos are complete,ready to inspect & move in . I arrive in Pattaya June 2016 ready to furnish 1 of the condos & move in & furnish the other ready to seek agents for rent only to find they did not even have a toilet installed yet nor was the kitchen complete . I was there for the next 2 months yet still couldn't get them finished . I have been told by agents I could sell now for around 3.3 million minus sales commission of 5 % so to sell the remaining 2 I would have to be looking at a loss of 1 million baht . I still am in 2 minds just to sell & take the loss or furnish when really completed & hope the market improves . I am sure some foreigners there have made some money on property from time to time but with my experience of 5 years now & still looking at a loss I would advice against anyone buying a condo there .By the way anybody want to buy 1 of my condos ? lolApart from that tulip group & Centara were meant to be a quality project . Not only is the condo 9 months overdue now where they lied to me for 6 months saying it was complete,the high quality look of the showroom to what you really get is a stark contrast. I have encountered deep gouges in stone benchtop,floor tiles you tap & hear its hollow underneath, very poor paintwork with even paint bubbling on the ceiling in the bathroom & their idea of rectifying it was another coat of paint over the bubble . Staying there for 2 months this time I noticed numerous vacant buildings even with very few lights on . I am lucky its in a central location so rent may be possible but I think at a much lower rate . I would definitely just rent again given the choice .I even stated to them they have broken the contract they are long overdue & would like my money back at least on 1 only to hear ohh no we cant do that. I saw a solicitor & they said yes they broke the contract & yes you could win in court but if you put your hand in the crocodiles mouth you don't expect to get it back do you .I wish for my sake & others who were sucked in I could give a positive point here but I would strongly advice at this time stay well away . The Russian investors have gone , perhaps we will get lucky with Chinese buyers the city is full of them now. cheers
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      • This is my way of thinking, I was recently in Chiang Mai and Condos there where absurdly cheap like 450kbaht.. That is bloody beers money when you speak of property.. Buy it use it for a few years and see what happens. I here people saying you cannot give the properties away the same saying was said in about parts of the UK, now cannot afford to buy in many places without a £80k cash down payment.. I think a punt at 500kbaht is worth a roll of the wheel.. Regards
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        • Ive lived in Chiang Mai since 2004 and have always kept a keen eye on property prices. And I have never seen anything for sale around B450K; this is rubbish. If it was, it would be a chicken coup out the back of someone's farm 100 miles from civilisation. The starting price for anything decent (2nd hand Studio in a popular location) is B1.8M. New is around B2.2M.
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  33. i bought a condo in 1997 new for 500k baht and it is now worth triple and i save don 20 years of rent also. so it has paid for itself about 5 times over. and the price still goes up. would i buy now at 1.5m? probably becuase you can get around 10% rental return though i expect capital appreciation will not be likely much more going forward.
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    • You won't be able to sell a 2nd hand condo here . There are many of condos for sale . You would.be very lucky to get 3% return of your money , if you could find a Tennant . A condo for 1.5 million ??probably past on nut now or further . Prices has increased dramatically but only on new builds . Resales on 2nd hand condos are virtually zero. Sorry to burst your bubble.
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  34. I looked into it very briefly. I put about 125K into a Mutual fund which gives me 600 dollars a month. Pretty safe and I still have the principle. My only income is S.S. and dividends Not that good. But, It gives me enough to qualify for a retirement visa. Without tying up 800,000 baht in a thai bank. Property is a gamble. I agree with the original poster. Rent is best here.I also agree on the idea of renting and when it starts getting old move to a newer unit. They are everywhere. I move all the time. When I find something I like better and newer I am gone.. :) Love it.
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  35. This post is all doom and gloom I followed the market there for the past 15 years i can tell you that old apartments are appreciating. This is a case of bitter expats, Thai's are making more money than what they did 10-20 years ago; their not afraid to spend and the standard of living has increased. Its making your pensions look tiny. Sure you always like to look at the lower end of the spectrum in terms of girlfriends, housing and entertainment. Keep complaining
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    • It's not about being doom and gloom. I'm just looking at it from my POV, and the numbers don't add up. Per square foot, what you get for your money isn't a good deal compared with UK property prices, even on lower end condos. Moreover, the build quality in general is poor. Sure, if you're a Thai building them and selling to western expats then you're no doubt making a pretty profit. But that's the other side of the model. As a one off personal investment, I maintain that it is not a good place to put your money. Can you give me some examples of areas where old condos have appreciated.
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      • Trio in Chiangmai: single unit were going for 1.1M baht and they threw in an iPad too as part of the gimmick, that's one off the top of my head. Have a quick Google and you'll see the prices at present. Bangkok: The Address Siam was 5M for a one bed with a view of baiyoke tower. Now have a look at the prices now. And yes I went to see it in person and dozens more. You are right in that it's not a good investment in that per sq/ft it's just as expensive in comparison to the UK. As for Build quality, for the uninitiated your picture of bamboo scaffolding would seem crazy but it's scaffolding... What can I say and also I've not seen any news of a building toppled considering Thailand experiences more than a few level 5-6 earthquakes per year.And what's pushing up demand I can give you a few examples too. Phuket and pattaya the demand is coming in from the Russians,; Chiangmai is mostly Chinese and Bangkokians lookinh for a second home or for retirement.And as for Bangkok it's very bullet proof even the 2011 floods didn't slow the market down. Terrorists attached, martial law... Etcdisclosure: I do not own property in these cities or have any affiliation with property companies operating within Thailand
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        • Actually the demand isn't coming in from Russians anymore. After our currency (russian ruble) dropped 50% down, if compare with 2013.So nowdays Russians are experiencing a deep financial crisis. And it will take at least 5 years up to get out of there.
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        • mate you want to get your facts straight or at least provide a link to confirm. I have lived in the above mentioned Trio Condo in Chiang Mai since 2015. And the B1.1M is complete bullshit. The absolute lowest Ive seen is B1.5M not facing the mountain. Here is the map of where its located. A very solid building with a dramatic breath-taking view of Doi Suthep Mountain. https://goo.gl/maps/oK6eVKz1LPw
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    • Most guys are not even good investors in their own respective countries such as the US and the UK. So I do not see how "investing" in a property in Thailand is such a good idea for the average expat. For most people its better to focus on investments and securing pensions in their own countries and then moving to Thailand. For the most part the math doesn't add up, overall cost vs the rent prices, break even points are way too high and take too long to get too. I personally rather have the flexibility of being a able to move on a movements notice if I had too. Or if my apartment simply became run down, I would easily just move to another place.
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  36. This is a quite a blog article with all sorts of great points. Personally I would stay away from buying any condos in Thailand especially if its money that you can not afford to loose! Unless you are in the business of buying/selling/building properties in this area then sure you might know what you are doing, but for the average guy you are likely to get burned, dont rely on luck.Maybe its just my opinion, but personally there are better investment opportunities probably in your own country like the US or UK and plenty of other places. I would stick to renting in a place like bangkok, at least for me it makes sense. I have a military pension, investment income, online income and a very healthy amount of savings. Between all these sources of income the rent is very affordable, and the option to move easily is nice to have. It would be very stupid of me to throw all my liquid savings/investment savings into one property in thailand, u know what they say, "never put all your eggs in one basket". Like i said if you are wealthy enough to buy and its okay if you were to loose a chunk of your money into a property of your own there, then sure, but if its not money you cant afford to loose then i would say its not a good idea.
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    • i do like your point about the 10 years break even point after renting vs owning. But even after 10 years, the odds of having to throw more money into it do go up due to maintenance costs, and heck after all that time the place might be undesirable to live in any more for your self or any one else. I know more wealthier guys who seem to rent when they can even afford to buy and even loose money. There is an element of convenience in renting, if the place goes to shit, you have the right to move on and find another place to live. If you get tired of Bangkok you can move to the beach or another city. If you get tired of Thailand you can move heck some where else. Lets remember people, we are all expats, we are not citizens of Thailand. A lot can happen in the next 10 to 30 years. Don't tie roots to a country were you don't have rights to live or have any legal course of action. Visa and immigration laws may change at any time, political unrest as we have seen from time to time, just saying just have an out plan if it all goes wrong, dont vest too much into a place like this, instead enjoy it, AKA rent your life style and have money in your home country bank as a back up.
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      • I am married to a Thai woman and would like to spend a lot of time there one day, I could not agree more with this discussion as I have always told my wife that I will keep all our assets here in Australia, she agrees totally and that is her native country ;)
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        • Glad to see some one agree! Wish you the best, Ben. My thing is enjoy life, keep money and investments simple. Life is too short to create self induced problems:) which us westerners love to do in forms taking on too much debt, getting involved in complicated investments and other matters. One acronym I learned in the US Army "KISS" Keep It Simple Stupid, but ironically the US Military rarely did so haha.
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      • Do not worry about maintenance costs as those things are dirt cheap here, whether it be tiles, paint or plaster/smartboard replacements. You can literally refurbish a condo from shite to one people will want for around 100k THB.Note: I am thinking DIY here, do not let others do anything for you because you will not get what you expect. Ever!
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  38. The maintenance aspect of things can't be understated.I personally know of a landlord who had gotten himself a beautifully furnished apartment before he decided to move on and rent it out. The place was gorgeous. He couldn't rent it out for THB 18,000, so he dropped it to THB 15,000 (in spite of other units in the building going for more). 3 years later he only got THB 14,000.Out of that amount he had to pay THB 2,000 in maintenance fees to the building. Unfortunately an employee of the building apparently ran away with a good part of the money, resulting in major building maintenance not getting completed. The facilities of the building deteriorated over time, some parts stopped getting repaired completely.To top things off, he got a termite problem. In Bangkok. On the 4th floor of a condo building. In addition to the damage of the termites, he had to hire his own termite company to take care of things (because the building pest control wasn't sufficient). Add another THB 1,000 to 2,000 per month in cost.In the end he sold it off just to be rid of it. He probably could have gotten a better deal by just putting the money in a bank account. And a lot less hassle.
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    • Sounds like a nightmare. Roaches and termites; two visitors you don't want over for dinner. Most condos start showing signs of wear and tear within a couple of years. While the build quality is often questionable, I'm sure the climate has some affect on materials and how quickly they wear. Lately I've read a fair few threads on people struggling to sell too. It seems there are some smart people making a return on rentals here, but for the average person I still maintain it is better to rent -- unless you are sure you want to stay in the same area for the next 20 odd years.
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      • I've heard of a condo first hand where there was a lack of funds due to mismanagement. At some point it wasn't just lack of repairs for pool/gym/sauna, but there wasn't enough money to do the proper elevator maintenance. That's how you get serious accidents.
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  39. I would like to know about rental gurenty investment 5 or 10 Years 10% return a year. I go to thailand 2 times a year. And I love this place I want to invest for earn money and I'm so excited to invest for the very first time in my life. I'm sure your experience and advice will help me the most. Thank you very much to all of you.
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    • I'm pretty sure they price the rental guarantee into the sales price. The extra percent above average market rate just gets tacked onto the selling price. Another variation is the fine print (e.g. they might ask you to pay them to advertise it otherwise the guarantee is void). It's either that or they outsource the guarantee to a company that'll get liquidated a few years in.Long story short: If they offer a rental guarantee above average returns, they'll make the money back on the purchase price or other contractual fees. No free lunch.
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      • I've seen one developer that finances the 10% guarantee and their own profits by renting the place out as a resort with nightly rates that are much higher than the monthly rates would be. Effectively, you buy the place and they lease it back from you. If they have 100% occupancy, then they bring in about 28% and pass 10 of that back to you. At 50% occupancy, they would bring in about 14% and pass 10 of that back to you. In one scenario, the company is making an amount equal to 18% of your purchase price; in one scenario they're making an amount equal to 4%. Either way you get your 10%, but they do this because they think they can consistently hit 70% occupancy.In the example I am talking about, you actually get just a bit less than 10%, because you remain responsible for the maintenance fee and they deduct that. So it's more like 9.3% instead of the guaranteed 10%.
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    • Ive seen the chaos caused by so called financial experts in 2007 onwards,, trust who you will.All investments carry risk, doesn't matter what anybody says. So a sensible person does their homework and research,,, they also ask themselves questions,, why do you want to buy? Where? How much? Rental income or own use? Expected return? Risks with ownership? The bottom line is if you can balance your risk so the plus points significantly outweigh the minuses then it is a risk worth taking a risk.It has worked for me so far, and i know of many others where it has also worked.There are always horror stories and bad experiences, but there will be far more positive stories. They just won't all post here because they are too busy enjoying their success,,, (my poor attempt at humour).Good luck to all who take the plunge I say. Rewards always come with an element of risk.
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      • You are right .You have to get the right advice from a wealthy Thy .I just purchased 2 old condos empty for 750000 each from the same Thi owner .they are both empty ready to renovate .the condominium block Imwould not personally buy to live their but the Thi advisor that I personally have known said Trust me you will flip this make 1 million baht . The renovation work and the Insurance transfer fee all weigh in 2.1 million Baht .When completed sell each unit for 1.6 million baht not that expensive foe a brand new fitt out and My friend has the real estate shop in Pattaya .She will receive 3% of the ptofit .my profit One million baht after I get my 2 million back in the sales .and they will sell as anything under 2 million baht and new inside with a central position will sell .
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  41. so you guys say, in 20 years, the apartment/condo is worth nothing and you'll have problems to resell them. right now - where can i buy those? i just want to have a cheap home, where i always can come back and my computer is waiting for me. im 27years, but walking from apartment to apartment makes me "sick". i never really feel home, wherever i am on this planet. so where do i find the 2ndhand market? i always look for apartments in BKK or HKT (kata area) but just find sweet brand new ones, >2M. i just want to have a small 40sqm place to say "this is home". but for 2M baht, i can buy that place back home in germany and call it "real home" (but without sun)
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    • Don't know about Bangkok my friend but in Pattaya area you can buy a second hand 40sq mtre condo in a 15 to 20 year old block for under 1 million,,, you will need to decorate and refurbish for sure, so add on a few hundre thousand abut for renovation and furniture.Just make sure you go to the condo block, ask to meet the condo manager, and ask if there is a committee and who the members are.. Also, use the lift and use your eyes,, if the building looks rough and unkept then it probably is, then just walk away.However, if the above things pass your test then you can ask to view properties for sale.Not sure what else you can really do,, its what I do. I am buying 2 more condos shortly to add to the 3 i have already purchased. These 2 new ones are bigger, 65 sq mtre, solid building but 18 years old. Building looks solid and well kept, met the condo manager who is sitting at his desk everyday.So, for me good investment as I will get approximately 12,000 baht a month per condo,, not big money but I am not spending big money,, not by many peoples standards anyway.When you want to find these places you have to google private ads and travel around yourself. Most agencies in Bangkok will be pushing to sell new or not yet completed condos where the sale is curative for them.This is website I sometimes use here,,http://www.expat-condos.com/1-million-baht-condos-pattaya.htmlHave fun and good luck to you my friend...
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    • A foreigner can buy a condo outright (100%), but cannot buy land. However, a foreigner's Thai registered company may own land. This of course involves certain business registration criteria which must be met when incorporating a limited company. Also consider that when a foreigner sets up a Thai company he/she owns 49% of the company, and the other 51% is owned by nominee shareholders.You can also lease land for 30 years. Many foreigners get their Thai partner to buy the land and then lease it to them for 30 years. Be very careful doing this and be sure to find a reputable lawyer - if there is such a thing!There are some housing projects where foreigners can own 100% of a house within the project.
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    • Do NOT bring your money in Thailand. Value for money is very bad. You can buy cheap stuff but is garbage. To answer your question you can't own land or houses in Thailand, many get married with a local and transfer property to the wife, who after a while, will steal everything from the husband and run away.
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  43. Unfortunately a strange kind of economic logic can be see in Thailand. Ideally, if demand goes down prices will go down accordingly. In most Western countries real estate prices rise and fall.However, in Thailand a different kind of logic is applied. If demand is low prices often go up. In some Bangkok districts not even 10% of newly build condominiums are sold (Bangkok Post, 2015). If tourism is down Thai people in tourist areas also tend to raise prices, enforcing a negative spiral. This - to me strange - logic can been seen in other (non Western) countries as well. Examples are China and many former Soviet economies Russia, Belarus, Kazakhstan).I am very pessimistic about real estate in Thailand. After the 1997 economic bubble rich Thai tycoons have invested heavily in real estate. It is starting to look like a real bubble. Most Thai people simply do not have 2-3 million baht for a box (24-26 m2 for 2+ million, wow). Household debt is close to 90% of GDP (and pretty much non of it is due to mortgages) which is really high considering the fact that Thailand isn't a highly developed country. This makes it even harder to buy an apartment for most. Let's not start about the interest rates on mortgages.I personally think economic growth prospects for Thailand do not look that great either. Labor productivity is low, the education system is a mess and corruption is endemic. On top of that the political outlook isn't that great which isn't good for FDI. The nation's economy seems trapped for the moment. I am not a Thailand basher. I hope serious reforms will take place. I just think it is really challenging and the global economic outlook is pretty gloomy.In conclusion: I wouldn't buy anything new unless it's in the top segment of the market. Trying to find a second hand condominium sounds like a better bet if you are able to lower the price by 25-30%. Buying a house in Europe (excluding Scandinavia) and renting it out sounds like a better bet to me.
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    • I do agree. The banks have lent out an enormous amount of money to those speculating on building condos and those seeking to buy to rent. At some point those debts will begin to default and lending will tighten; this will be the start of a property market crash. China has washed a lot of black money here in the last 5 years, which has driven up condo prices. A lady I know who works in real estate says this has started to decline of late, largely because they are struggling to rent the properties or resell them, so they are focussing on investing in Europe, particularly the UK. But then again, Thailand is a strange economic beast, as we know, so it may surprise us all.Lastly, the fact that the government is going after this single internet gateway thing is another political nail in the coffin. This will affect investor confidence, particularly from the US and Europe, as they will see this as creating instability and increased political opposition among the people.
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  44. With all due respect...Clearly you may have little knowledge or insight into property investment. We have bought several properties in Bangkok and across Thailand and have been able to easily resell them (there is a well defined market) at a very decent return vs the risk associated with financial markets. Even in the current technical recession (there is one and it will get worse in the next 18 months) across Asia Pacific there are incredible opportunities for a much better standard of living, investment growth and income for those who have the determination, education, knowledge and "guts" to make managed risk decisions. We all started somewhere on our investment journey - those who have learned our lessons the hard way now take smart, well thought out decisions (dispassionate). Good luck to you and thank you for even thinking about starting this post - commend you for that and hope to see more people contribute to helping others make objectives and educated decisions. However, we should leave emotions like fear out of the equation.
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  45. Everyone is different and I disagree with the post. Firstly I would never advise buying off plan in Thailand. There are hundreds of abandoned projects all over Thailand where early investors are stuck and have effectively lost their money. I know you should chose wisely etc, but its just not worth it.I know a millionaire who invested in "dozens" of condos in Pattaya only to see a huge courts case emerge that the building was built without legal planning permission (how this happens God only knows). So, just before completion everything grinded to a halt. You only have to google to see how many cases are going on just in Pattaya, frightening.So, what do you buy? Well if you are buying for yourself then it is all about peace of mind and security, the market now is down and looking gloomy so bargains are to be had. But do not buy if you are thinking short term, might as well just rent.For buy to let then this is still a viable option as the post says people are choosing to rent.In my view (and this is what i did), cheap rentals will always rent out no matter what the economy does. and I mean under 10,000 baht so cheap.If the economy is rising then everyone can enjoy, if the economy is falling then people economise and look for cheaper accommodation.So, I bought 3 condos in an older, established block that needed some renovation. I bought each condo from a family that inherited them for a bargain 550,000 bhat each. All are 40mtr sq but they were empty shells. So I then spent 150,000 each renovating. So far spend on each 700,000 baht.(2,1 million baht)I renovated and rented all 3 condos for 22,500 baht a month (7,500 EACH). Rented them all out within 6 weeks on 1 year contracts. So I get a 12.2% yield, much higher then any new build and bank.So, my strategy and advice is if you can find an older established condo in a central location, check for some bargains as their will always be somebody who wants to offload quickly in todays market, buy, renovate then rent them out.If in 7 or 8 years from now I want to sell, well I have my money back so can afford to discount, or just keep renting them out.There are always people looking for cheaper rentals the ones that I see struggling are the new, tiny 25sq mtr condos in the new blocks with rent of 15,000 plus a month and there are many.My condos, nicely renovated, central location, 40sq mtr, 7,500 a month, so far it has worked well. All being well I will buy again in the near future and try and build a reasonable income.
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    • Thanks for sharing your strategy Gary. It's good to hear a point of view from someone actually making money in the market. Still, my only concern with your strategy would be that it will still take 13-14 years for you to make back your investment money. During that time those old buildings will deteriorate further. Of course you can invest more money into redecorating the condos you own, but you don't have control over the buildings themselves. And problems with piping and pests in old buildings are common factors in causing residents to move out. But then I guess property investment always has its risks, whatever the strategy or market climate.
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      • Hello, thank you for replying. Sorry to correct you but I make my money back in half that time, approximately 7 to 8 years.They key for me is pretty obvious, if you are buying in an older building firstly see how well its managed (if this is hard to answer and you can't get to the committee or condo manager then bad sign) and 2 study the rental income you can expect and be realistic.True the building will get older but not so much in 7 or 8 years.As I stated I am making a 12.2% yield which is far higher then i could expect in the West and a much better return then any bank.It is perfectly possible to make money but you do need to buy at the right price, do your homework and be patient.
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        • Oh sorry, I worked it out that you spent 700k renovating on each, so your total spend was 3.75M.I just read what you wrote again and stand corrected.That's impressive then. I guess the key is picking the right building. I don't know much about building materials so that would be an obstacle for me.
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          • I dont know much about building materials either. The reason why I picked the condo is that although it did look its age a little it was well managed. I met the condo manager and a few committee members.It has regular maintenance on the lifts and electricals. They have recently repainted the building. The building has CCTV at entrance, lobby area and on every floor,, there are many other things that I won't bore you with but it is being maintained.Also, dont forget although condo prices may go up or down if in say 10 or 15 years the condo is ear marked for demolition the land prices have increased massively. So, if the land were to be sold or redeveloped then of course I would benefit from that.I guess everyone has their viewpoint, but so far things are working ok for me and (no disrespect) I hope I am right and you are wrong.thanksGary
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    • Great idea and great advice Gary. Ive been looking at buying a condo there for a while now. Tell me how do you find a reputable and honest agent and lawyer ect to deal with and make these property transactions without getting ripped off or paying to much ? I suppose a Thai partner would help?
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      • Hello Glynn. Personally I work on the principle of dont trust anyone.My advice is find the property yourself. Most agents won't bother with properties under 1 million baht because they don't see it worth their time so it is not easy to find online.I simply travelled around the areas in central and found a few condo blocks that looked reasonable. Then started digging. I did find however, as soon as you mention to one of the office staff that you might be interested in buying they immediately say, "oh my friend is selling one". The reason they do this is because they want to put themselves between you and the seller to earn easy commission,, i know it sounds cynical but its true I'm afraid.So, I ask for the owners details so I can speak to them.Once I have found somewhere then you need to do the checks on the property and check there s not debt secured again it or anything. Need a lawyer to do this. Then assuming every things ok, agree the deal with the buyer and get yourself over to the land registry office with your lawyer and the seller and do the paperwork.At this point you can't really be ripped off because the land registry just process the paperwork to put the property legally in your name.The only thing you can do is perhaps pay a little extra to jump the queue because you can be there a while.Then you are given the deeds which you store safely of course and away you go..So, not difficult really. If you look around central Pattaya from 2nd road up to Sukhumvit and drive up and down the sois you will see many condo blocks.My feeling is that if it is well managed you will easily get to the condo manager and the committee,, if you fail to get past the secretary then be cautious as there may be no one really in charge.Good luck fella,,
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  46. I guess he really knows about Thailand-I've stayed here more or less 5years and started thinking about purchase one but compare to my country, it is over priced and can you vision after 25years of Thailand?Where this ASEAN things go? How much of economical development in Thailand can be expected? If not your future investment, only for your vacation, and if you come up with positive calculation then should do.Mere my opinion.
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  48. Question: what would you do if you were me?Facts: I'm 62 recently retired with a net $6400 monthly pension. I have 425,000 USD in savings.I'm looking to retire (single) in Bangkok. I vacationed several times and love the city life of BKK.My question is should I buy or rent and should I consider additional condos for investments? Thanks Mark
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    • In one word, rent. Why? Because if you buy, you may never realise the investment anyway. The amount you'd pay to buy a condo would be about the equivalent of paying 25 years rent money each month. By the time you own the condo it will be an undesirable second-hand buy or rent because it's so old. It will have lost massive value.Buying a condo is a good idea if you need to launder money. Other than that, my advice is to rent. Renting also gives you the freedom to move around or move home if need be without having that hassle of a tie to sort out.
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        • If lower suk then 60k upwards for 120 sqm. It really does depend on proximity to the BTS/MRT and the age of the building.As an example, I found this for 50k a month: http://www.ddproperty.com/en/property/2-bedroom-condo-in-pathum-wan-bangkok-142306789 sqm in Chitlom. Not sure how close to the BTS though.
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    • Seems like you are in a great position financially so I guess an investment for you is more about whether you want to leave property assets behind. Your 6400 pension each month is over 200,000 baht a month, considering that the majority of Thais live on less then 30% of that (even in Bangkok) you may struggle to spend it.I spend less then that each month to live and i live well.As per my previous posts I invested approximately 70,000 USD on 3 cheap condos that i now rent out. They generate 22,500 baht a month income (so about 650usd a month) not a huge amount but good for the investment money.But even then it is only 10% of your pension every month.It's really up to you, the worlds your oyster, enjoy your life as it appears you have provisioned well and have earned it.
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    • Hello Mark,I just landed on this blog for the first time.. If you haven't made up your decision about whether to buy or rent, you are welcome to visit my agency Sense Property Group, located in Sukhumvit 31 (Soi Sawatdi opposite Sunshine Market).Beyond the classic considerations of pros/cons of each option, I believe it is important to emphasize that with the historically low THB against USD and CHF - among other currencies - we have seen recently a strong increase in the number of requests from foreign investors, either expats who live in Bangkok, in neighboring Asian countries (Singapore, Malaysia, China, Hong Kong..) or who simply consider retiring here, mostly from Europe and the US.Once that said, investing in property in Thailand requires patience, reason, and market insight. I would recommend to buy on the resale market, where you can find very decent condos for 100 to 150K THB / sqm.You can also contact me directly at bastien @ senseproperty.comBest regards, Bastien
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    • with $425k,000 in liquid savings and a $6400 monthly pension at age 62. You are doing very well! I would rent and keep the savings quite liquid/or in low to mid interest savings account. You have more than enough to live quite well of the monthly pension, so there is no need to go risk your savings in property investments in Thailand. Keep that money around as a nice safety net or any emergencies.
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  49. Are seriously considering a condo in Chiang Mai in a pretty hip area, we'll priced with what we have seen around. We are being told that here properties will go up in the next couple of years, but seriously after reading this blog are now worried that we may be doing the wrong thing and to continue to rent when we come over is the way to go! But I find it hard to rent a condo here for under a 6 month lease and we only come for 1 - 3 months at a time when we do.
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    • Unlike the UK, US or much of Europe, prices of condos/apartments never seem to go up here. You can flip a condo for a profit if you buy it cheaper off plan and sell after the completion date, within say one year. But because rents are so cheap, foreigners tend to rent rather than buy, unless of course you plan on living in the same area/visiting the same area for the next 25 years and buying is a convenient option - and you have the spare cash.I think it makes sense on the high-end condos to buy if that is the case, but only if the build quality and furnishings are to European standards and the condo is in a very desirable area. But even then, I do not put faith in being able to sell at a profit. Most condo blocks here in Bangkok tend to look very aged by the 10-year mark, with the exception of a few very expensive developments.Personally, if I was only visiting 3 months of the year, I'd find an nice place where the owner is willing to rent to you for 3 months of the year. I know a lady whose sister owns a nice development in Chiang Mai, if you like I can get you the details,
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  50. If they haven't finished building the condo block then you should be able to buy at the off-plan price, which generally makes for quite a saving. But consider that the risk level depends on what phase the project is in. If the project is phase 1 and doesn't secure funding for phase 2 or 3, the company may declare bankruptcy and the build will go unfinished. It doesn't happen often but there are many cases, so be sure to do your homework on the company and backers involved.
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  51. I frequently attend trade exhibitions at Impact. There is only 1 novotel hotel there which is often full. My thai friend suggest that I buy a condo in that area. Cost about 2.2m baht for a new 2 bedrooms 50 sq m at the lakeside area. would it be hard to resell later?
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    • If you think it would be cost-effective to buy a condo vs paying for a hotel for the next however many years you think you'll be attending the trade shows then it's worth it, I guess. But then also factor in the pain of owning an asset like that in a foreign country should you decide to stop visiting at any point in the future. I think you'd be able to rent it but might struggle to sell it. I can't see it going up in price, that's for sure.
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  52. Thanks for the OP, enjoyed the posts. I agree condos are probably oversupplied right now in Bangkok at least and the market is a bit hot. Although not nearly as hot as in some countries like Australia. However Thailand still trumps most developed countries as the cost of living can be still quite modest.The investment case. If buying to let your property, you must look at the return after costs; monthly maintenance fee, repairs, including downtime when your unit isn't rented etc , etc. Compare this to mortgage interest rates and term deposit rates. e.g. recently bought a well located condo in Chiang Mai and the yield after maintenance fee is about 5.6% which I consider only OK. I am not up to date right now with interest rates in Thailand but one can look them up.I think location is V important. If one doesn't buy in a good location anywhere in the world, your property is less desirable and may be harder to rent or sell.I think one vital long term issue with condos is the outside building maintenance. Maintenance inside your unit isn't expensive in Thailand but finding good tradespeople can be a hassle. However maintaining the common facilities of your building means going into issues of the controlling committee etc. etc. There are often issues with this as all over the world. In Thailand in general you can notice that most condo. buildings over the long term don't have enough spent on continuing maintenance of the building and common areas. Top end properties its usually better.Condos. in Thailand are easy to buy and slow/hard to sell. Most Thais buy for capital appreciation and not for yield. Buying off the plan and 'flipping' is popular. All good as long as properties are going up.Property is an inflation hedge. Are we headed for deflation like Japan who will money printing eventually cause inflation? I don't know. Anyway one usually should own some property somewhere as a hedge. Gives some security in old age. Key aspect is buying at the right price. For investment, adopting the adage buy low sell high, or contrarian stance can be a guide. Cheers
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  53. I've been leaving in bangkok for 5 years and i was thinking to purchase a condominium. After properly studying the issue i came to a final conclusion not to buy but to rent instead as I don't see the point in buying a condominium even if it's a luxury one that cost 2 millon dollars or 60 million baht. And i still think the rental price in Bangkok is expensive if compared to China and Malaysia. You can rent a 3 bedroom condo!! for us$280 p/m to us$350 p/m in China and Malaysia. But in Bangkok, rental for a studio room cost 13,000bhat p/m around us$400 p/m and thats expensive. A 3bedroom condo rental in Bangkok cost 18,000bhat to 50,000bhat p/m thats around us$750 to us$1800 p/m. Overinflated prices$$$. Not worth the value. Heres Why? 1)There are dog faeces(shit) are everywhere a long the pavements outside those so-called luxury condominium. If you step on dog shit be prepared to clean your luxury condo. 2)dirty and disgusting streetfood stall owner causing a mess while blocking the pavement. 3)Piles of rubbish are being dump outside those condo streets. Smell of bad rubbish enters your condo. 4)Bad traffic jams and seriouly bad pollution that can have an effect on your health. The standard of cleanliness is so bad in Thailand and yet they expect to sell and rent everything not according to the actual value!
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    • Hi Pik Pie.I hear what you are saying. The thing about Bangkok is, no matter whether you live in a 30k studio or an 8k studio, you are never more than a stone's throw from the smells and noise that comes from the hustle and bustle of the city.That said, most luxury condos are set in clean grounds, with security and garden areas/swimming pool to chill out. So while the city as a whole isn't the cleanest, such condos provide their residents with a bit of escapism, albeit small.BKK could certainly do some rules in regards to cleanliness. The dog poo is a problem, as is the pouring of food down drains and general disregard for conscious rubbish disposal. But when you consider the huge amount of people living in the city, it's no wonder things are the way they are. It's bursting at the seams!I agree though; prices are overinflated, and based on perception rather than a true market value. Thing is they build cheap, sell expensive. It doesn't matter if 50 rooms of 200 are empty, because they only need to sell say 30 condos and rent 50 to make the build money back.
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  54. I notice a lot of conversation is revolving around BKK, what about Phuket. The rental there during the high seasons alone is sufficient to generate an 8-10% annual rental yield, leaving half a year for your own use. That has attracted me to get an hotel apartment walking distance to jungceylon and the beach. Don't intend to sell the property anytime soon coz i think phuket is a great place to retire. Thinking of using my rental in singapore to finance my lifestyle in phuket in future.
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    • If you can maintain the occupancy to make the yield and that allows you to stay the rest of the year free, then great. But what is the likelihood of that? I'm not saying owners of desirable rentals don't do this, but who are you renting to? Who is the target customer?And how many years will you have to wait before you make your money back? Technically you won't be staying for "free" (even though you rent it the other half of the year) until you have made the money back.Also consider that as the property ages you are required to pay for all repairs.If you're buying with a view to retiring in the property, and you're not interested in resale, that's cool. Because the fact remains that condos are being built faster than they can be occupied. It's a buyers market, with the prices only kept high because of market manipulation. I don't know of anyone who has bought a second-hand condo, because it simply isn't worth saving a couple of hundred thousand Baht when you can have a brand new one.As I've always said: If you absolutely love an area and are certain you want to live in that area for the next 25-30 years, and don't care that you probably won't be able to sell the property, and that due to build quality it won't be worth much in 25-30 years, then it's a good decision based on lifestyle.
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  55. Very interesting all points made in this forum. From my point of view however there are some BIG considerations that haven't been taken seriously into account.I should start by saying that perhaps the real important decision one has to make is not Buying or Renting a condo in BKK. Or elsere. But how to INVEST wisely your money.Let's say somebody ( Who loves to live in Thailand ) have savings around USD 300k or 10M bath. What are the real the available options to INVEST this money... ??As many already said , leave the money in the BANK. Another option would be Invest throught the BANK. In addition I will say that you can also invest in stocks, bonds, mutual funds, etc, etc, etc, by yourself. Why not...??The only problem is that if you simply leave your money in the bank in 10 years time you will have the "buying power" reduced by at least 50%, And at that time you will simply not be able to purchase the same condo you CAN today. As sure as the sun will shine tomorrow.If you decide to invest through the bank be also aware of the "purchase fees" and management fees that sometimes can get nearly to 5% or 6% of the amount invested and the yearly returns nowadays can be very close to that so in the end of the day after 10 years time you will end up with the same 50% buying power situation and NOT being able to buy the condo again.Since I am young and throughout my live I have continuosly invested in real estate EVERY TIME I have made enough cash for the purchase.As a result having properties in different countries obvioulsly lead to a good sum of headaches too so I decided to stop purchasing real estate and do financials INVESTMENTS.I took this decison around 2005 and on 2008 the great financial crises came.To make the long-short ALL my Stop losses were hitten and I lost in a matter of days almost everything I had invested. Something around USD 250k. BTW the value of a nice 2b/2b anywhere in the world.What remained....??? THE PROPERTIES. And the income generated by them.It is now taking me almost 6 years to get the same point I was before needless to say that today for this amount I cannot purchase the condo I was planning by that time.It is my opinion that most of the people who replied here in fact DON`T have disposable money to purchase and that is the main reason they ( have to) opt for renting.This year I arrived again in the same situation of the USD 300k / 10 M THB disposable funds.I purchase 1b/1b 42sqm in a busy area of Sao Paulo - Brazil 1b/1b 55sqm ethernal SEA VIEW in a very well mantained 14 years old condominiun in Patong, Thailand and a 2b/2b in Bonifacio Global City, Phillipines which gave me as a gift permanent residency !What about the reseal value....???Anyone really believes that in 10 yeras time these condos will be for sale for the same price...??Another rule of thumb in regards to reseale value : Real Estate you ONLY buy NEVER sell.I hope i have contributed to the forum.Take care out there ;-)
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    • Thanks for sharing this insight, it's certainly food for thought. I agree with the idea of never selling real estate in a country like the UK (where I'm from). But buying a condo that no one will want to rent in 20 years because it's so run down doesn't make sense to me, because the return on investment will kick in about the time no one wants to rent it anymore. Plus, new condos blocks are going up weekly, so people tend to look to the newest ones to rent.
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      • Ok, but an old building where no one wants to live is sitting on valuable land. In Thailand developers are buying old condos and land, demolishing and rebuilding all the time. Where I live in Pattaya space is becoming a premium and developments are stretching out to the South in Jomtien. My condos are in older blocks but in a central location in Pattaya, this is prime real estate location and always will be. Bascially I have no fear of the issue because I will get my money back on my investments within 7 years and after which its all good.
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  56. I have found this website very useful.I am thinking of renting a condo for 6 months and live off my redundancy money.At the same time I intend to to do some computer training and then return to the UK.I would be interested to know if there are any trustworthy agents that can help me choose the right condo for me.
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    • Hi Mikey, welcome to TTL. In my experience the best way to go about this is to first book into a reasonably priced hotel and then spend some time looking around for a condo that suits your requirements yourself. The best deals I have found haven't been online or through agents, but instead through seeking out an area I like and then spending a day viewing by simply showing up. There's always someone on hand to show you rooms and give you prices. Agents take a big fee and rent at the highest price. If you need advice on areas and potential places to stay post back and hopefully we can help you out.
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  57. Hi All.The comments here are all helpful, particularly TTL's original. My bias is also that in BKK renting is best, for most.That said, if a reader is seriously in the market for a condo, the comments here are, no surprise for a general forum, a bit uninformed and incomplete. A serious buyer should not necessarily be put off, but rather energized by TTL's original post to thoughtfully consider all aspects of a buy in Thailand.Consider Your Context. Most of the comments here are spot on especially for singles, those with lower budgets (e.g., <THB 15k/month rental), those willing to live in small rooms (Studios or 1BRs, 30 sqm or 60 sqm), and those with a shorter time frame, who expect to be in BKK 10 years or less, or cannot be sure. TTL was clear on all of these points. Those with families, a need or preference for larger space, a desire for a proper kitchen, a preference for a view, or a larger savings (but not the to include the rich) might - but not necessarily - find the economics of ownership turn in their favor.Compare to Cambodia. For those considering buying in Thailand, you might take the time to compare Cambodia first hand, which is to say by actually going there, not just an Internet search. That can be an eye opener, and will reinforce TTL's original comments. The ROC (return on capital) there is phenomenally better, and the cost of living lower. If you were buying with the idea that you might, for whatever reason, rent later, and eventually sell, you might find certain areas of Cambodia (PNH, SR, SHV, etc) far more attractive for potential rental income, legal right to property, and likely appreciation over mid term (15 years). TTL is absolutely correct that the ROC in Thailand is, for most buyers, negative, and will be for decades to come. Comparing what you get there with Thailand will be sobering, and ensure that you are buying in Thailand for the right reasons, if you do.Don't Forget Fees. For the Condo Buyer, this thread to date may have also overlooked the cost of monthly Common Area maintenance fees: they range from THB 800 to 1.5k to 3k per month, depending on size of unit. (They are, of course, all at psm, but for general readers the range above is perhaps more useful.) Beyond that, you have the cost of Internet, Cable TV, etc. It adds up very quickly. As a rule of thumb, for the owner of a 60 sqm condo, expect to pay at a minimum THB 4k per month in fees that are included/not apparent in your rent. The Buyer must also pay a large one-time initial payment to the Condo Fund, again on a psm basis. Ownership does not mean "rent free".Tenure Matters. Ownership of less than 5 years incurs a tax penalty in Thailand. Beyond that, as in any country, anticipatable tenure is a key consideration in any buy vs. rent decision.Size. Don't forget the Townhouse/Detached Home rental market. This is where, if you are willing to forgo the condo swimming pool, you will get even more value for your rent. If you add in a willingness to buy your own motorbike (ie, you're here for a few years), you could get a really good space in one of the Housing Developments, which have green space, under-used swimming pools, and kids.Outside the Box. Don't forget the share rental condo or room in a home. This is an under-utilized gem here in BKK, which makes renting even more attractive.Your Neighbors. One point is often overlooked that weighs heavily in favor of renting: BKK Thais can be incredibly petty and rude. This is not only to foreigners, but even more to other Thais themselves. When foreigners rent, it often is in an Apartment that competently manages the building, enforces hallway rules (e.g., garbage, etc), has polite guards, and generally does things to treat all tenants equally and deferentially. When you buy a condo, or even rent in a condo building, that is designed for the Thai buyer (ie, in the range of 3 million or less), you may find a decidedly eye-opening experience: middle-class Thais that are strident and shrill, security guards that are on the take, usage rules that are badly enforced, common areas that are unkempt and in disrepair, swimming pools that are overrun with bad behavior and multiple guests. The non-monetary costs of ownership are, for many would-be owners, the most powerful reasons to continue to rent.You can live phenomenally cheaply in Bangkok, and this includes rent. But you have to work at it. The reality is that Thailand has gotten expensive. The daily commute for many is now 200/day (4k/month), as just one example. Bang Na, Ding Daeng or Nonthaburi have great bargains, but can make for an expensive commute. For those working, both foreigners and Thai's, BKK is often the only choice, so the pressure for space will continue.But what if I'm a serious buyer? Might that change the economics? To be fair, let's make some assumptions that are realistic. These might include the following:1) Tenure: I expect to be the owner of my Thailand Condo more than 10 years 2) Size: I expect to buy a condo of at least 60 sqm, at least 1Br/1B. Even this is a bit "unfair" to the Buy/Rent equation, as most foreigners who are serious buyers would be looking for even more space. The economics of buying tilt even more in favor of Buy with a 2Br/2B, but let's keep it at 1/1 3) Budget: I have savings now that I could buy a THB 2.2 million condo today. This again is a bit low. The serious buyer would honestly have a budget of THB 3 million+ 4) Mortgage: I do not need a loan or, if I do, I can get a loan from my parents or an equity loan from the property I already own back home. Alternatively, I have an employer here in Thailand that will act as guarantor on my purchase and enable me to get a 25 year loan here in Thailand with 30% down payment. (This has happened for foreigners, but is unusual.)Would these modest assumptions make Buy the better decision? Not in all cases, but certainly - especially for the long-term or family buyer - the economics get much better.Size. For a 1Br/1B at 60 sqm, you might rent in BKK for 15k. A 2Br/2B might be 25k+. 15k for 10 years = 1.5 million (after fees). During that time, your rent would probably have gone up. Thus, at 1o years, you get to about Break Even, where if you had bought, you'd now be close to living rent-free + 3k monthly maintenance fee. 3k is not nothing, but is in reality the same amount we might pay on a single nice dinner for 2. BKK has a lot of small units available in the 1.5 to 2.2 million range.Own to Rent. The comments to date may have mis-stated the rental market. For the savvy owner, it can be fairly easy to attract good tenants, and there are plenty of would-be tenants in BKK.Without question, BKK is a Renter's market. Beyond condo's, there is a huge and growing stock of rental apartments (ie, for Thai's and budget foreigners). A few even have swimming pools. But if you are market savvy, and most reading this forum are, and buy your condo at an appropriate price, you will be able to rent out your condo on average for 10 months per year over a 5 year period. The key is to simply do the small things to make your condo nice, market the condo well, and under-price the market. These are things that few condo owners in Thailand do.If you owned and lived in your condo for 10 years, then decided to rent it out for whatever reason, that 60 sqm 1Br/1B would rent fairly quickly at 12k per month, and give you the pick of reliable tenants.Quality of Construction. The comments on Condo Construction are a bit mis-leading. Most of the comments relate to the non-high-rise buildings (fewer than 7 floors) done by owners of long-held family plots. These are not Condo's, but rather rental apartments, townhouses, or detached homes. By contrast, most Condo's are 20+ floors. These have the quality of at least what's making the news these days in Qatar or Dubai...which is to say the minimum. However, to be honest, if I were a Singapore buyer, I would not at all be confident that the building standards of the Indian crews working in Singapore or London are all that much better or held to a significantly better building standard. Singapore, and not Bangkok, is where a building has collapsed, and that caused all building standards and inspections in the region to be tightened.The deterioration TTL refers to is really the interior components - PVC pipes that crack and cause water damage; built-in cabinets that look like crap; kitchen and toilet fixtures that scream 3rd World quality; flooring that cracks and warps. But from the Condo Buyer's perspective, these things also have positive points. With the cost of labor here, they are all fairly easy to replace or update. They make your initial Condo purchase a bit easier. Damage to other units (e.g., water damage to the unit below) is readily repaired and not the major incident it can often be in Europe.The real worry about "quality" is - beyond the tiny little shoe boxes that are being built these days - the disappearance of your view. This is a huge risk for all new condo purchases in Thailand, and should be considered thoroughly. To be honest, you will most likely lose your view over 2 decades in mushrooming BKK. Most mid-range buyers are better getting a lower floor with a swimming pool/garden view, and not spending any money on a view.Resale. As mentioned, the secondary market is terrible. At best, after 10 years, you will get what you paid nominally, before inflation. Those who are forced to sell after, say, 5 years, will sell at a loss.So what is the strategy for buying a condo? Well, it is surprisingly bright, if you have the right context and perspective. Renting in BKK probably is best. But if you are looking for more than a "Thai-style Studio", but are still just a middle-income buyer, a buy strategy might look something like this:1) Buy in the Secondary Market. If you are a serious buyer, you have a wad of cash in savings. You will find incredible bargains in used condo's. Look especially for buildings that are 5+ years old (Thai sellers want to wait 5 years to sell for tax reasons)2) Negotiate hard, and be prepared to walk away. Thai sellers tend to be incredibly unrealistic. The listed price will be at least 30% too high, for no particular reason. Do your research. Find the price psm for that building/unit at time of off-plan sale (ie, two years before completion). The original owner can go as low as this, and often is willing to, just to get their original investment back and avoid another year of monthly maintenance fees with no tenant and no appreciation. If they stick to a high price, they are not serious about selling, and are just hoping a stupid foreigner will buy - certainly no Thai will. Get a good bargain, or walk away.3) Consider a 20 Year Old Building. Some of the best space and price psm is available in the older buildings, and the quality can even be a bit better - without all the modern Chinese materials, etc. Don't hesitate to go after an "old" looking unit, bargain very hard, and invest 200k to fix it up.4) Don't Necessarily Follow the BTS. Yes, of course, the BTS is a draw. It has its well reported good points. But the BTS is not exactly bargain cheap transport. Many places "near" the BTS are actually a scruffy 10+ minute walk. Beyond being more expensive, many BTS locations are noisier, smaller, without views, and congested.Instead, consider following the Bus routes. This, I believe, is the unrecognized location opportunity these days. Of course, the bus transport of today is pretty bad. But even this standard is not all that bad, for those of you who have to commute everyday. And the buses will be upgraded big time during the next 10+ years.More important, "bus route" locations have two big advantages over BTS locations, which buyers often forget: a) many, many potential Thai tenants have cars and want to drive to work; b) many potential foreign tenants, and perhaps you also, have many times that you want to take a taxi home instead of BTS, or might be in a group. In both instances, a Condo outside the BTS locations can be far easier to access. Considering the hassle (10 minute walk or 20 baht moto ride) of getting to BTS and cost once you're there, a commute location near a 10 baht bus route could be a nice alternative, at least for the hardy. They might even all have air someday.For the really adventurous, a non-BTS route might also allow a convenient bike ride to work. Quite a number of the non-BTS locations are served by larger roads, which have more space to accommodate cyclists. Even if a bicycle is too much for you, buying a nicer condo for your budget outside the BTS area, getting some green space, and commuting sunny days by motorcycle may make much more sense. Alternatively, avoid the BTS by paying more for a place within walking distance to your work. Walking to work is heaven.5) Don't Forget University Locations. While not quite the value of Western university towns, Thai University locations have a number of benefits for a condo buy, including in terms of nearby activities.6) Invest in a Cocooning-Friendly Place. All other requirements met, the key to making a Condo purchase work in BKK is to pay a little more for a place with facilities that you can really enjoy. Most Thai's rarely use the Condo facilities. You will often have them to yourself. You can save yourself a ton of money by finding a place where you can be happy with your mate to stay on the grounds and open a bottle of wine, have dinner, and hang out at the pool. Here again, also, the non-BTS locations can help, too. Many have more space, are located near the newer shopping malls, and have more local flavor, restaurants, and street food nearby.I bought my first BKK condo in 2000 (4Br/4B on 33rd floor in LPN development). It has been a phenomenal investment. But this was for only three reasons: 1) I bought in what was at the time an "odd outlier" area (Rama III, near the river and the original Tawandaeng); 2) I held it long enough for it to become a core part of the CBD (now considered part of the Sathorn area), 3) I bought it at a really cheap price. Buying cheap is most important.If I was to do it today? I would definitely buy in the secondary market. There are some great bargains available here. I would buy a low floor with a pool view, and not risk the loss of view. I would look for an older building with a bit of space, and try to stretch my budget to get a 2Br or 3Br. I would look to see if there was something around the various schools, especially the outlying ones: ABAC, NIDA, Kasetsart, Siam, etc. I would consider to do a motorcycle commute, if I had to go to an office everyday, but also consider the ease of a bus/moto commute along the Rangsit Cooridor, including close in at Saphan Kwai/Bang Sue or even as far out as Kasetsart U or even Thammasat Rangsit. I would also look over in the area of the new Tawandaeng (Ramindra/Laksi). If I was to buy new, I guess I would look near Bearing/Bang Na or Nonthaburi, but beware your views. I would not be thinking seriously yet about Nakhon Nayok or Ayuthaya, unless I happened to work out in those areas.But if my horizon were not at least 10 years, I would definitely not buy.
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    • This is great, insightful information. Personally I wouldn't buy a condo. If I found a location I wanted to stay long term I would consider a new build house. But then, if you have a Thai partner, it's cheaper to buy some land and build yourself.
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    • For Consider Your Context:Love this one, great view point, I have been investing in Real Estate since I was in my 20th, I own apartment building, beach house etc. all in great location, read what you wrote, I have to say, you are a smart investor.I love South East Asia especially Bangkok, I am interested in and plan to buy a low rise old condo and do my own renovation, I'll follow your advise, the matter of fact, so many great ideas in your block, just what I am thinking too.Thank you so much for sharing all of these great view points, greatly appreciate.
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        • I just got back from Bangkok, I don't think you can find anything under 4-5 million baht in good location.I saw one, she wants 3.8 Millions, only 50 m2, I agreed, but after two days the seller changed her mind.I guess, I have to wait until next visit, it probably in fall, or winter which is around September or December, hopefully I can find something the next trip.
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  59. Correct totally agree. If I was some one who was a multimillionaire in terms of US dollars, then I could see my self risk a little. But I am not in that situation, it's not worth the risk vs reward for me and probably for the average person. It's scary when guys are considering spending 50% or nearly all of it to buy a condo in BKK.I would rather and I think most people should consider investing their money else where. Where you can generate more income or invest in your own businesses in your respective countries. Should something go wrong in Thailand us foreigners would have a hard time persuing any type of legal settlement vs say in England or the USA.I'm still young and working on securing more for my retirement which will generate me more mOnthly income. Thailands rent is very affordable, say I get tired of a condo because it's noisey, getting old, dirty, bad neighbors, I can easily move out at the end of the rental agreement. I rather have the freedom and flexibility.For those that do want to buy... Evaulate what you can afford to loose or not loose. Thailand is not our country we are just visitors there, if something goes wrong have an out plan. Never be to vested in the area that you can not leave even if you want too.
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  60. Some great points by everyone here. I am glad to have found this blog, others I have visited many people are promoting and having hopes that in the next 10 years condos will appreacite greatly again. I believe it's all about timing and location, to get those high returns we may of missed that boat already.I agree that currently the market seems to be over flooded with condo buildings popping up every where. Honestly one should evaluate the reasons they want to buy, is it for long term? Short term? Investment?I was looking to buy myself but after running the numbers it makes no sense too. Say I buy a 5 million Baht condo today, it would take close to 21 years before I see my money back, and that's if I can keep it rented at 21k Baht a month. Unless the condo really appreaciates in value then it might be worth it. Personally for me it would need to be a big jump, just appreciation of only 10% would not be worth the hassles for me. I think there are better places to invest were your money can be liquidated a lot quicker than hopes of trying to sell.I have the money and income to buy cash but for personal reasons the investment side of it doesn't make sense or worth the possible troubles for little to no gains later on.I would buy only if it was a place that I know I'll live in forever. But I am at the point in life where I would rather enjoy the freedom of moving new places every few years if I get tired of one place go onto to the next.Currently I have a military retirement check coming in monthly and work. With just my retirement not including what I make now. I can easily afford a 30k-40k rented condo and still have plenty left for living, food, other expenses. For my case I believe renting makes sense, I don't think dropping a large number of dollars from my savings for a condo is a good idea for myself.
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    • I think you are correct - the boat set sail a long time ago. I think the condo market is over valued by 20% (at least). There is a bubble brewing that will burst in the next 10 years. New condos are going up weekly and building standards are still questionable at the low-mid price ranges. The resale market is much like the car market here; pointless buying second hand because you save next to nothing.Like you say, if you are buying to stay somewhere to see your days out then cool, but not as an investment. I do believe there are opportunities in the very high-end of the market. For example buying a condo near wireless rd (Pleon Chit) and leasing it for 5-10 years at high rent to the US Gov or other for their staff based in Bangkok. But who has 30 odd million to put down and wait 20+ years to get back..not many people.Condo prices have shot up rapidly in the last 2 years, and the UK pound has fallen rapidly against the Baht. 5M Baht for a one bed Condo in a block of rabbit hutches doesn't appeal to me at all, especially when you can't choose your neighbours and the building starts to fall apart after 5 years.
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  62. Hi,I bought incredibly cheap condo,part.seaview,first line to the beach.I did have for more than 4 yrs free vacation/flight only/,and I can see similar condos beeing sold for 25 to 50%more than I paid.So much for the bad resale market.Our 18 yrs building is in great shapeIs it not so that those build before 1998 crisis are better?Or what..I have my things there,can travel lightly have friends,neighbours and I am looking forward to be there all winters once I retire.One problem nobody talks about:People who burn garbage on the beach or street,it sometimes smells.Talked even to police,but if foreigners they will chase them out if Thais they have right to sleep on the beach.V
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    • That's great if you intend keeping the condo, but how much would you get if you sold it? It won't have appreciated in value, and I think you'd struggle to sell it. As I said, buying to keep is fine, but don't expect a return on an investment.
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      • Hi when I am watching nice sunset from balcony i am not concerned if price did go up or down.But neighbouring condos -same size +- 1-2 floors sold for abt 1/3 more than I paid.Plus in new building u dont know what happens in 8 yrs.In this one I know.In 2x8 /16 yrs almost nothing.So in this speed I will deteriorate faster or much faster than my condo/not for sale/. V
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  63. TheThailandLife: Hi Magnus,To some degree the Baht is pegged to the Dollar, and my personal opinion is that the Euro and Pound will weaken considerably in the next 2 years against the Dollar and Baht, which is great if you are paid in dollars.The resale market is poor. Thai people like to buy new condos, and why would anyone buy an old condo when there are so many great deals for not that much more money on new builds.The rental market is good if you have a fabulous condo in a desirable area, but then it’s a big investment upfront, and will no doubt take 25 -30 years to recoup. I would imagine finding tenants isn’t hard in the right area, but again, I don’t see it as a good investment opportunity when you need to wait 25-30 years to recoup, and when you come to sell the property has depreciated to more than half what yo paid for it.Why buy when rent is so cheap, and you then have the freedom to move around.
    hi mate, pound vs baht is something i try to watch /predict as i can see my self retiring in thaialnd maybe in 12 years or so , not doubting what your saying just wondering on what grounds you base your opinion on? i think your assesment of the thai condo market is correct certainly in phuket , where rent is cheap but buying a condo is big £££. i k now of people who have purchased condo's recently and lost 20% in resale
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    • Hi, my opinion is based on financial forecasts in the UK. The economy is sinking and Money Week have been predicting a deeper recession for lately. The Thai economy is booming, and with increasing investment from China, Japan and Korea, I think over the next few years the Pound will further dip against the Baht. I could be wrong, I mean it's all guess work.
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  64. Very good and interesting forum. What is the rental situation actually? Especially - how easy is it to find tenants? I am, despite the warnings, wondering whether or not to buy a central Bangkok apartment for retirement. (warm weather, international hospitals, good food). Assuming that the Thai Bhat will appreciate against the US$ and the Euro, it might be a worthwhile investment. How is the resale market? What price difference between 'new' on 'second hand' is necessary to sell a property again. Regarding 'built' quality, I agree to a previous comment. Most structures are reinforced concrete. The interior of an apartment has to be redone from time to time, this is normal, also in HKG and Singapore. My worry is more on the repairs which I cannot directly do, e.g. water supply, drainage, elevators etc. Any experience there? What are typical management fees in Thailand?
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    • Hi Magnus,To some degree the Baht is pegged to the Dollar, and my personal opinion is that the Euro and Pound will weaken considerably in the next 2 years against the Dollar and Baht, which is great if you are paid in dollars.The resale market is poor. Thai people like to buy new condos, and why would anyone buy an old condo when there are so many great deals for not that much more money on new builds.The rental market is good if you have a fabulous condo in a desirable area, but then it's a big investment upfront, and will no doubt take 25 -30 years to recoup. I would imagine finding tenants isn't hard in the right area, but again, I don't see it as a good investment opportunity when you need to wait 25-30 years to recoup, and when you come to sell the property has depreciated to more than half what yo paid for it.Why buy when rent is so cheap, and you then have the freedom to move around.
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  65. I am in the process of making a bid for a condo that is in construction. Is it normal to offer your own payment terms and purchase price - even though the developer has listed the sales prices and payment terms? I am asking up front so I "save face" with my realtor!Any advice greately appreciated!
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  66. Gents, I'm one of the no doubt countless folks reading the blog and agree with your advice on renting. I'm thinking of renting a one bed apprtment somewhere on sukumvit near Asok. Could you provide an idea on what you'd expect to pay on rent and indeed and websites for decent agents ?
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  67. Guys, you have all been very clear in your comments regarding condos in Thailand. This I can not agree more. Yet, if ones can be more specific of what the names of the condos...builders to avoid this site would be even more meaningful. After all, they ought to be some good condos out there?????
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    • Good point Hank. If anyone knows of the names of quality built condos, badly built ones, problem contractors/sellers, reputable firms, etc, please feel free to leave your information to help others looking to buy condos/property.
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    • I want to buy an appartment or condo having 2 or 1 bed. Location ABAC Bangna. near ABAC university. Where I can keep a small carpet dog. Please if you have any sajatiob or if you know any agency who can take care of the whole deal please let me know. Thanks Atique.
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  68. HiIm really glad Ive found this site. I was looking to buy a small condo in Thailand this year and i have booked a holiday for October and thought i would do a bit of looking round while i was there. I think i'll stay round the pool. Some of the points raised did make me think hard about a purchase, i love thailand, i love the culture, food and people and i also love the fact its cheap, i want to retire early and enjoy my life and i thought if i bought somewhere it would be cheap for me to live but i'll keep my money in the bank and rent i think. Can anyone recommend a area to look? im after somewhere thats not rowdy, not seedy but not too quite, im going to Khao Lak for a holiday and that place sounds right up my street but any suggestions welcome. Thank you
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    • Hi Mark,There are so many great places to live it's hard to say. Bangkok is great but I wouldn't rent near central Sukhumvit. BKK isn't my preferred place to live but I stay here because there is a diverse mix of expats, not just sexpests. Chiang Mai is awesome and perhaps one of my favourite places, although there is no metro to get around. The islands are cool but get a little "fish bowl-like" after a while, so I leave them for holidays.hope that helps a bit.
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  69. Well, I'm planning to buy one from the bank... you know, those dirty-old apartments. I've done the math (I'm living here, btw, so buying will probably be cheaper then renting) and it seems like a good price. I'll pay 1,5 mil. for the apt. plus (hopefully only) 200k for repairs. Very old building, 20+ years, but it looks strong and I like to think that "they don't build them like before" lol ... so it might last another 20-30 years
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  70. All valid points. On quality, most condo's are made with steel reinforced concrete, so unless the developer is really dodgy than these condo's will last for a long time. Superficial things like tiles and cracks can be easily fixed. Also, just because something is cheap now doesn't mean it will be forever. In 15 years time you will probably be paying twice the rent you are now and may regret not buying a condo.
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  71. Thailand has currently PRECISELY the same recipe for the freefall property market crash that occurred in Ireland 2-3 years ago. Rising purchase costs versus decreasing rents (as the OP notes, why therefore buy?) coupled with a smoke-and-mirrors approach to the real value of the property. Are you seriously going to lay out 60K GBP for a place built by unskilled workers that will likely show cracks - or worse - within 3-5 years? Thailand is not Singapore or Hong Kong. Granted, property prices in those places are way higher, but their economies are (pardon me) "real", and new build quality is generally excellent. A better option is Malaysia where expats can buy houses - or whatever they want - as long as the thing isn't on Malay Reserve land. There again, unless you buy in Langkawi or Tioman, your beer budget might not stretch very far.
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    • I agree. I can't see the point in buying a condo when rents are so low and new builds are going up weekly meaning you can move at will and have the pick of great apartments. If you buy it will take you 25 years to make the money back in terms of what you would have rented it for, and by that time the building is falling down no one wants to rent it if you move out. If you marry a Thai who owns land you are far better off building a home on that land, or, asking your partner to buy land in his/her name and lease it back to you for the maximum period. Problem is, land in desirable areas isn't cheap, especially in Bangkok.
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  72. Everywhere in a world you can buy an appartment an sale without profit! It's depend the place,the view,the storey,the neighbour,subway or not etc...... Bkk and thailand are a future country where everythings will be possible in a future it's why I think if you've an oportunity an money to buy a condo and if you fell it,DO IT!America and europe are now close to becoming the past.
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    • I wish that was the case Kik, but it seems that buying second hand you only save a marginal amount, not enough to warrant not buying first hand. Personally i think most developers look at it like this: build a block, sell some, rent the rest, make their money back with a good profit over 10 years, and then build another block. I am not convinced condos are a long term investment here, neither for the developer or the buyer. (Read overlander24's comment) If I heard about some developments being built to western standards then that would change the dynamics....but then surely the price would double.
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      • My condo is more than 15 years old, and it's in perfect condition. It's not very expensive either, and it's probably going to last a very long time.Concerning overlander24 comment, of course a cheap kitchen doesn't last 20 years, but that's to be expected and not a problem. A condo needs maintenance that is true, and renting makes a lot of sense in Thailand (and in most part of the world I believe).I don't recommand buying condos. I'm just pointing out that you cant say condos are expensive to buy and that they have a cheap resell value at the same time. The second hand buying price is obviously the same as the second hand selling price, this price can't be cheap and expensive at the same time :)
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        • Well I am pleased to hear of a condo still in good condition after 15 years, that gives me some faith. I guess like most things you need to really shop around, and of course know what you are looking for. I don't know too much about building a good condo block, so if I was to buy, I would try to find an expat who did know to show me some basic things to look for. :)
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  74. Sensible advice. However, I disagree with your assertion that off-plan advance fee fraud is "becoming increasingly rare". In reality, the practice is becoming increasingly common; particularly in the mafia-infested coastal resorts. Buyer beware.Developers are asking silly money for Bangkok condos these days but, at the same time, market rents have fallen.Instead of buying a condo, I invested my own capital in a high-interest fixed term bond back in the UK and used the income to rent an apartment. Initially, it was a nice place but, when cracks appeared in the walls, the sanitary fittings deteriorated and the kitchen units fell apart it didn't look quite so good. The last straw came when the army designated our soi a "live fire zone" during the red-shirt demonstrations. We were trapped indoors without electricity or running water for several days as the bodies piled up outside.Needless to say, we moved out as soon as we could and are now living in a brand new rented apartment in a quiet riverside location. Had I been reckless enough to buy my previous flat, I would have been stuck there for the foreseeable future because the property market in that area has all but collapsed.Despite the fall in the value of the pound, the decision not to buy has left me better off financially and I also enjoy the peace of mind that comes with not having to live in a potential war-zone.
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    • *Overlander24: That is a quite a story, thanks for sharing. I though the government were clearing up a lot of advance fee fraud by making sure developers have working capital to pay back money in the event of liquidation - but then like you say, the coastal resorts have a big mafia influence and I guess you are more likely to get ripped off there - glad i didn't make that investment after all. My apartment in BKK seems to falling to bits too. We had workman in again today do deal with some plumbing issues, basically the waste from downstairs coming up into my system! ....Like you I think I will keep my money in the bank.You raise another good point. I always think to myself, what if the political situation descended into civil war and a people's party took power that basically took away property owning rights/deeds from foreigners. It might sound far fetched, but look what's happened in certain parts of Africa, and in the Cyprus/Turkey war, etc...so many people just lost their rights to property....scary thought.I guess those with serious money can afford to lose a few million baht on a condo though...
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  75. So much of it depends on your personal situation as you pointed out. I have a family and there isn't a price I can put on the value of owning our own home (not a condo). But of course, we intend to be living here indefinitely and the investment of it is of far less importance to us than what it probably is for most expats. I would never buy a condo unless I had large amounts of disposable income which I don't. :) And even then, it would be purely for the convenience of it and not as an investment. "Buying" a home is risky here on many levels for an expat, but I weighed the risks vs benefits and the benefits won. Sure we could rent cheaper but that's not our goal. Of course, when looking for our home we took a lot of time to choose a home we felt would be a good investment if we ever do choose to move.
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    • I agree ubonrthai, it really is situation depending. However, i think a lot of people lose because they rush in without really thinking, just on the basis of it being cheap. In your case it is clearly the best thing for your family long term, and you intend to live here indefinitely, plus it will mean your family always have a roof over their heads. I guess buying land and building is a better option....but also a tricky one for expats. Thanks for contributing.
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